Thread: Draigoch bugging out still, keep on selling it in the store guys.

This is beyond sleazy -- over the last two nights there have been multiple groups in /glff reporting Draigoch freeze ups, just like every weekend, and yet not any word from Turbine as to a fix coming.

It comes down to ethics, and what sort of people you are -- you have done a very shoddy job of developing this instance, misrepresented it in advertising, and yet you happily keep selling it to people knowing full well it is fundamentally defective.

Have the basic decency to discuss the issue with your paying customers -- do you intend to fix it, or are you going to keep silent on the issue and hope it's forgotten as people skip it in favour of newer (probably also broken) content? Do you have the slightest idea of what is wrong? Do you even possess the basic sense of right and wrong to know that this is a lousy way to treat people?

I echo this sentiment.

I raised the very same point WAY back after the issue was encountered, unfortunately Turbine still sell the 'defective' isntance in store.

Suppose all we can do is stamp our feet, and hope they hear the thuds, however don't hold your breath, as the level cap increase is surely only a few months away, and with that the need to get the dragon cloak will surely drop.

Pity really, as I actually enjoy the instance, as do the majority of groups that accompany me.

They've already stated they're having difficulty finding the problem, and it's hard to find a solution when you can't even find the problem.

That being said, I don't think it's bugged for anyone on Silverlode for a while, and my raid group does it 5+ times a week with no bugs.

/signed. Bad karma for them to keep selling this as if it worked.

BTW, I am seeing many posts every week of players who are having this bug on them so they cannot finish and wasted all their time.

Ouch!

As a VIP I did not realise that you had to "buy" this from the store only to find its defective and nobody will replace/refund or even show much apparent interest. That is outrageous, but presumably legally acceptable under US legislation for some legaltechnobabble reason.

You have my sympathies chaps and chapesses, maybe chucking that tea in the harbour WAS an error after all and has come back to bite, round here we have the Sale of Goods Act which gives you a fair chance of compensation/relacement for shoddy goods that don't WAI and it covers software in my experience:-)

I believe I have come across 3 separate bugs in Draigoch..the newest one was something to do with a graphics bug, he doesn't look like he is where he actually is..if that makes sense. Made things very awkward >_<
It would be nice to have a fix for it a i see less and less Draigoch pugs for it these days. There used to be quite a few but then when he bugs people get frustrated and don't want to touch it again (with good reason).
Some of us still need scales and if other servers are anything like ours people sell them for stupid prices =\

The Business Life Chain

• Producers create something.
• Release it unfinished but sell it anyway.
• Thousands of people buy it.
• The Business naturally assumes it is working as intended, so they start work on a new project and leave this one behind.

As long as people keep paying for it (Without the disclaimer that it bugs 75% of the time) they will do nothing about it.

Originally Posted by zalladi

The Business Life Chain

• Producers create something.
• Release it unfinished but sell it anyway.
• Thousands of people buy it.
• The Business naturally assumes it is working as intended, so they start work on a new project and leave this one behind.

As long as people keep paying for it (Without the disclaimer that it bugs 75% of the time) they will do nothing about it.

75%???? I'm guessing closer to 5. I think your 4th point is clearly wrong in this case.

It has bugged for the BelAire Princes about 40% of the time.

I canceled my sub and left feedback about exactly why. You should stop paying Turbine, and also tell them why.

I have never had an issue with this instance since it came out. I know folks that have had issues but I have personally never been in a group that has had issues.

I will say the folks I know that reported issues were those trying to run the dragon with 6, 7 or 8 people and not the full 12.

I must be one of the lucky ones as i have yet to see this happen.

Intermittent issues are almost impossible to find. Just as any IT guy at work. 50% of the problems that us ordinary folks have go away as soon as the IT guy sits down at the puter.

My kin has had the dragon bug 2 times (in the same night a few weeks before the 7.0 patch). Other than that in the past 3 months it has not been a problem. We do dragon 2-3x per night without issue.

You are doing it wrong.

Originally Posted by stratospaly

My kin has had the dragon bug 2 times (in the same night a few weeks before the 7.0 patch). Other than that in the past 3 months it has not been a problem. We do dragon 2-3x per night without issue.

You are doing it wrong.

No Stratos, we are not. I play on three servers, with a wide mix of players/characters, and some times it works, sometimes it crashes.

People like you are the reason companies get away with this nonsense -- instead of seeing the obvious fact that Draigoch is a very sub-standard set of code that was poorly implemented you choose to blame the user. Until they can either correct the issue (hopefully) or at least tell players what to do/not do to avoid it (not ideal but ok) it is a moral failing to continue to charge money for the instance. It's a little thing about being honest with people, and delivering on your promises.

I'm glad the instance works for you. It does not work for a significant many people, and your dismissive comments do nothing but discourage people from demanding Turbine do the right thing. How about you keep quiet, go play your instance, and let the rest of us sort out with Turbine the content that we paid for and expect to play.

The only thing that's going to get Turbine's attention is a significant amount of players quitting this game & not spending any money. Once the servers start going dead & Turbine is losing more & more money then there going to do something.

Originally Posted by stratospaly

My kin has had the dragon bug 2 times (in the same night a few weeks before the 7.0 patch). Other than that in the past 3 months it has not been a problem. We do dragon 2-3x per night without issue.

You are doing it wrong.

Doing it wrong? It shouldn't matter what anyone is doing, the instance shouldn't bug out to the point where the Instance cannot be completed. That's clearly a defective issue with the Instance.

+Booger+: I cannot confirm a known issue with Draigoch,

Well apparently Draigoch isn't broken, nothing to see here everyone needs to just move along...

{Oh and that's a real nice name for a GM}

Here is the problem. For every group I hear about that keeps having draigoch bug out regularly I hear about a group like ours that has never once had him bug out after months of very regular runs. It is a very interesting dynamic to consider. Whatever this bug is, it is must be a very complicated and buried in code bug to affect some groups so much and not affect others at all.

Turbine never wants to admit that anything is wrong. Its like a lawyer or a government: we neither confirm or deny that there is a bug with the raid. Makes you feel like they are not on your side. Wish they would realize that admitting a problem and an apology go a long way.

But it seems to be all about money and ensuring they don't have to refund anyone. Making sure they don't lose any possible money they can make off this raid.

The number of times this raid has bugged out on us in the past few weeks has brought this near 4-year player this close (imagine me holding my thumb and forefinger very close together right now) to cancelling my subscription and uninstalling lately. I suffered stoically through Moria's release problems, and through the instance problems with Mirkwood. Ever since RoI came out (in general), things have been pretty bad. I think the thing that's frustrating is the lack of progress on FIXING things that are commonly used.

Players shouldn't have to come up with lists of superstitious rules about what will and will not cause an instance to bug out; rules which cripple certain classes or activities important to play or play styles, and which nobody *really* knows are effective or not. Players shouldn't have to spend all that time working on what is a decent little instance (and a very long one) just to have it #### out on them in the end.

The instance is a lot like the Turtle in a lot of ways. Remember when they had to shut THAT one down? They shut it down to fix it, because it was broken. Does anyone remember that? I believe they actually did it twice.

I'm not sayin' anything... I'm just sayin'.

i have done the dragon raid 8 times and had it bug out 7 times. No shadow tanking ,hit all the FM's (got the challenge to prove it) always had the tank there and no LM pets. According to any posts i was able to find those were the things that cause him to bug. As the rest of you stated many times the GM's are unable to help and its generally quite frustrating considering like the rest of you I BOUGHT the dragon raid. As a result i decided to cancel my sub and not spend anymore money on this game and i encourage others to do the same and not participate in the pre order for ROR (the new exspansion coming) seems all turbine understands is the financial bottom line so refuse to give them money until its fixed.

Considering that the Draigoch raid:

• was originally announced in December 2010 (referenced here)
• failed to meet its scheduled launch date in April 2011 (mentioned here)
• was eventually released with Isengard in September 2011 (described here)
• and still doesn't work in June 2012 (acknowledged nowhere)

I must conclude that one or more of the following is true:

• Turbine's marketing employees are unwilling to admit they're selling something unreliable
• Turbine's community team refuses to officially publish known issues and acceptable workarounds
• Turbine's managers are unwilling to devote developer resources to the issue
• Turbine's developers are not talented enough to find and correct the errors
• Turbine's scripting technology is just not robust enough to support this kind of encounter

We used to get Draigoch bug out on us, but we found that it was caused when in Phase 3 and was on the ground for conjunctions, if we got a conjunction a few seconds before he got up again then the conjunction effect would not be removed from him and he bugged out. What we did to avoid this situation was about 5 ssecs before he was due to get back up we all pressed F1 to make sure a conjunction didn't get put on him. Since then we haven't had a problem.

Originally Posted by Zombielord

Oh and as Khafar already said: I doubt that posting GM responses is allowed

I am fairly certain that there are no GM's with those names and that Jeaux changed them to "protect the innocent" and hopefully protect this thread from locking. I also do not see this as "picking on the wrong person(s)", as he is posting what the GMs had said about having their hands tied by the situation, and is clearly laying blame on Turbine in the rest of the post. Its also very obvious that GMs are getting as fed up with this as everyione else.

BTW, i have been in 14 times, completed 2 (this included the one mentioned in Jeaux's post). With all different class makeups, all experienced players, and in groups of 6-12. So, yeah, for every group that completes there are dozens more who do not. Just because "my group wins every time" does not negate the fact that many do not, and does not point to any idiocy nor skill issues with those who do lose out to these bugs. Its BUGGED. It is NOT the players doing the raid, its the instance itself. Its success/failure ratio is highly lopsided as far as i can tell from the posts all over the forums here and my own experiences. It is condescending to post this way, and extraordinarily rude of folks to say otherwise and lay the blame on the deficiencies of the groups who do fail more often, as that is definitely not always the case. As others have pointed out, it should not be up to players to create an anthology of the whats and wheretofors of what "might possibly" make him not go brain dead in the last moments of the fight. I also am quite puzzled about the inability of GMs to hit the kill switch when it gets to that point, and would think that they, too would be fed up with this by now. They can smite in other situations, why not this one?

And it is those groups who do "win" and who keep their subs running who will maintain the status quo, namely, this mess being "on ignore", as there are plenty more of them and others who are just gonna wait it out than those who will cancel because of one instance. And they know this. Am thinking that the company is liable in some way for its misrepresentation of content, however, and would really like to see at least this point addressed, somewhere. Officially.

PS: the suggestions given have all been tried and tested in these fights, none of them made a danged bit of difference (including the conjunction thing). The only thing we did experience along those lines was one 8-man superpowered DPS heavy fight that finished at 38-mins with no bugs. So maybe, possibly, there is a slim (anorexic, even) chance that the time thing was a part of the success of that run. But i highly doubt it.

Originally Posted by zalladi

...As long as people keep paying for it (Without the disclaimer that it bugs 75% of the time) they will do nothing about it.

Dunno m8 what you actually do inside, but i have made that lair boss lets say lots and lots of times and the ####### lizard has not bugged even once.....

So 75% lol, probably closer to 2-3% (still not good but...)

I completely understand that the Draigoch code is buggy and there can be dozens of factors that could be the root of the problem. My biggest issue is that the GMs aren't empowered to grant the rewards when he bugs out.

I've heard people say that if the GMs start doing that then people will exploit it; but given how long it takes to get a GM response compared to how long it takes to actually down the beast once the fight starts.... its is actually quicker just to kill him then for somebody to try forcing him to bug and then wait on a GM response.

Can a blue name please explain why they aren't letting the GMs give rewards when Draigoch bugs?

For those who fail to see the humor in my hypothetical Booger & Bubba GMs, I'm sure if there really were GMs named Bugger & Bubba they would be asked to pick a more apealing screen name.

The names are fake. The scenario is pretty much what you can expext when trying for help and the frustration is real.

Originally Posted by Steamweaver

would really like to see at least this point addressed, somewhere. Officially.

I'm sure that will happen on the same day my cat presents me with a gold plated pizza.

Originally Posted by Steamweaver

Must not be Southerners, Jeaux.

Erp.

Actually I do live in the South and we take things at face value down here...

remember it's obviously more important to keep ppl from jumping on the roofs of bree and to slim down fat hobbits in the shire than to fix a broken instance.

the next expansion will be epic with these priorities for the dev's....

Originally Posted by Steamweaver

I am fairly certain that there are no GM's with those names and that Jeaux changed them to "protect the innocent" and hopefully protect this thread from locking.

Probably won't work. Customer service issues are verboten here. Really. There actually is a good reason for it: Turbine has a policy that forbids them from discussing incidents in public, so all we're ever going to see is whatever the player says - which could be made up out of whole cloth for all we know. I'm not saying that this is... just that the only people who could verify it with any authority are not allowed to do so.

Over at the TOR forums, they don't play by those rules. I've seen posters there make complaints and then have the moderator come back and slam them in public, giving details that the poster conveniently left out, telling other posters when the original poster lied (e.g. saying they'd submitted tickets on the same issue 5 times when in fact they'd only done so once). Personally, I like TOR's system better, although I'm sure it pisses off the people who get what amounts to a virtual dunce cap placed on their heads. But that's not the policy here.

Its BUGGED. It is NOT the players doing the raid, its the instance itself. Its success/failure ratio is highly lopsided as far as i can tell from the posts all over the forums here and my own experiences.

OK... but I have to ask. Why on earth do you keep on doing it if you know it's bugged for you or your group? Seems like an astonishing masochism to me. When I run into hugely annoying bugs, I avoid them until I hear they've been fixed. When I run into a blocking bug in a single-player game, one that prevents me from progressing without huge aggravation (which I now seem to have with Max Payne 3), I stop playing it. If they get a fix out that addresses my issue, I'll pick it up again. In the meantime, I'll do something else with my leisure time.

A company that makes a habit of putting huge, aggravating bugs in my path will stop getting any of my money. I don't raid, so that particular one doesn't impact me. But if one like that did happen in a place that was 'core' to my experience of the game, I'd be playing something else either A) until they fixed it, or B) forever if they'd made a habit of doing that.

Khafar

Originally Posted by Hetweith

remember it's obviously more important to keep ppl from jumping on the roofs of bree and to slim down fat hobbits in the shire than to fix a broken instance.

the next expansion will be epic with these priorities for the dev's....

LMAO nice try with the comparison....

Originally Posted by Hetweith

remember it's obviously more important to keep ppl from jumping on the roofs of bree and to slim down fat hobbits in the shire than to fix a broken instance.

the next expansion will be epic with these priorities for the dev's....

So basically what you're saying is that Turbine should put the Artists into the codebase and have them fix issues in an area that, for the most part, they don't have any knowledge of. That and Turbine shouldn't do their best to make sure that players cannot get into areas that could cause them to permanently lose their characters....

Yea, good job on that strawman.

Look, until someone can come out with a reason as to why Draigoch bugs out, one that can be recreated and confirmed, Turbine's not going to be able to create a substantial fix for it. Couple this with the FACT that it is not an issue that affects everyone equally at the same moments and you're looking for a proverbial needle in a 15 ton haystack.

You can't just submit an in game ticket and expect the GMs to do anything. You have to submit an online bug report. I just say this cause if you were contacted by a GM, it doesn't seem like that's what you did. Type /bug in game and fill out the form.

Originally Posted by DarkCntry

Look, until someone can come out with a reason as to why Draigoch bugs out, one that can be recreated and confirmed, Turbine's not going to be able to create a substantial fix for it. Couple this with the FACT that it is not an issue that affects everyone equally at the same moments and you're looking for a proverbial needle in a 15 ton haystack.

Turbine claimed to have the skill set to make this instance work. They marketed it as a functioning product, even months after knowing for certain that it's not. It is not OUR problem that the instance is malfunctioning, it's all on TURBINE. They made an offer to give us functioning content in exchange for our money. We provided our end of the bargain, it's time they do the same.

Either fix the instance -- and I mean really fix it, don't just have a community drone post "clever" comments about reducing the "brain deadedness" of the instance -- or both refund money spent on the raid and also make the rewards available through another reasonable in-game mechanic. It's time for some people at Turbine to step back and ask themselves what kind of people they are. Is using misleading advertising to sell a defective product the right way to treat people?

A little honest communication from an actual member of the dev team involved would go a long way towards mitigating this issue. Is the instance going to be fixed? Will the unique loot items be available through another means? Do you at least have the decency to admit that the instance has significant issues and own up to the whole fiasco?

Unless its 100% not working for everyone they won't remove it, even if only 1 person out of all the servers managed to complete it they'd sell it.

Originally Posted by Fortinobrand

Turbine claimed to have the skill set to make this instance work. They marketed it as a functioning product, even months after knowing for certain that it's not. It is not OUR problem that the instance is malfunctioning, it's all on TURBINE. They made an offer to give us functioning content in exchange for our money. We provided our end of the bargain, it's time they do the same.

Either fix the instance -- and I mean really fix it, don't just have a community drone post "clever" comments about reducing the "brain deadedness" of the instance -- or both refund money spent on the raid and also make the rewards available through another reasonable in-game mechanic. It's time for some people at Turbine to step back and ask themselves what kind of people they are. Is using misleading advertising to sell a defective product the right way to treat people?


A little honest communication from an actual member of the dev team involved would go a long way towards mitigating this issue. Is the instance going to be fixed? Will the unique loot items be available through another means? Do you at least have the decency to admit that the instance has significant issues and own up to the whole fiasco?

You still have failed to tell us EXACTLY what is breaking on it, other that you cannot complete it. This factor is key in determining fixes for it, and if they cannot replicate it then there is no way for them to know WHAT to fix, and in their corner without an idea of what to fix and no concrete method as to what is breaking and how, then effectively there is nothing to fix.

Turbine has stated that there can be some issues, and there has been at least two fixes released for Draigoch since the release of the instance, both of which seemingly helped for many but didn't help for all...which again leads back to without an idea of what is breaking, how it is breaking, and why it is breaking, there's absolutely no way for a developer of ANY caliber to be able to fix it.

Guys, I'm sure I'll be trolled for saying this, but this is not constructive at all. As you can tell from the forum posts (and if you ask GLFF in game) most people are not having a problem with it. Now, what this means is that even though it's something along the lines of buggy code, it's something you are doing specifically to trigger this buggy code, or it would be happening to everyone. (Again, Turbine needs to fix their code, I know this, but something you folks are doing is triggering the code that they need to fix, and the rest of us are not triggering it.)

Instead of bashing Turbine, create a thread to analyze exactly what you're doing differently from other people. It's already been pretty well established that rezzes and pets do not cause it (as there are tons of groups, including mine, that do both). This narrows it down (slightly) to things like phasing, positioning, that type of thing.

When you go on the runs that bug out, are you using two burgs? Are you getting in two CJs every body drop, and are these CJs occurring significantly before Draigoch stands back up? (We tend to run out about 10 seconds before he actually stands up.) Of any who might be dying, are any of those people up by the head? Is anyone besides the tank getting aggro on the head?

Originally Posted by TinDragon

Now, what this means is that even though it's something along the lines of buggy code, it's something you are doing specifically to trigger this buggy code, or it would be happening to everyone. (Again, Turbine needs to fix their code, I know this, but something you folks are doing is triggering the code that they need to fix, and the rest of us are not triggering it.)

I agree that it seems to happen to some characters more than others, but that does not necessarily mean that their actions are the culprit. It is completely possible (though not probable) that something in the character's code itself is not parsing correctly, which causes the script to hiccup.

Case in point, the Wi Flag in AC did exactly this. Two seemingly identical characters, performing the same exact actions, one would experience the bug while the other would not. Just like the Dragioch bugs, the devs initially denied that the bug existed, then it took many rounds of testing to finally identify and fix the underlying issue.

Originally Posted by StavroMuellerBeta

Just like the Dragioch bugs, the devs initially denied that the bug existed, then it took many rounds of testing to finally identify and fix the underlying issue.

Well, if it's really like the Wi Flag, we can expect another 2 years or so before it gets fully diagnosed and fixed. I've had a few bugs like that myself, and they're just maddening, both because it's so aggravating to beat your head against that wall and fail, and because they haunt you for weeks and months, sucking any fun out of doing your job. Yes, it's their job to fix it, but I can absolutely guarantee you that getting to a fix would make them happier than anyone else.

I'm sure Turbine has made many runs at trying to A) reliably reproduce it, B) diagnose problems, and C) apply fixes before trying it out on Palantir. I'd bet that the fact that they haven't nailed it yet means that they can't get it to fail for them with any consistency on their NDA server (where it's appropriate to try a much wider variety of tactics, to take more risks, and more fully instrument the code without causing severe server performance issues). Without that reliable way to cause failure, they can never be confident that their fixes have actually been successful - not until they throw it over the wall to Live and see.

Khafar

Originally Posted by DarkCntry

You still have failed to tell us EXACTLY what is breaking on it, other that you cannot complete it. This factor is key in determining fixes for it, and if they cannot replicate it then there is no way for them to know WHAT to fix, and in their corner without an idea of what to fix and no concrete method as to what is breaking and how, then effectively there is nothing to fix.

Turbine has stated that there can be some issues, and there has been at least two fixes released for Draigoch since the release of the instance, both of which seemingly helped for many but didn't help for all...which again leads back to without an idea of what is breaking, how it is breaking, and why it is breaking, there's absolutely no way for a developer of ANY caliber to be able to fix it.

I had a fairly lengthy career in software development, including several game development jobs, starting at Epyx and working on into the MMO era. I left the software industry about 6 years ago. I understand the nature of the issue, and the difficulty in resolving it. But I know when I worked for any of several major game studios we'd have been fired on the spot if we were to say "gee boss we can't fix it because a player hasn't told us how yet." We'd gather user data of course, but it was on US to identify and resolve the issue.

Many players seem to think this is a PLAYER issue, and that frankly reflects a limited set of reasoning skills on their part. This is a software issue, and every time one player blames another for it Turbine smiles, because that's one day closer to getting off the hook without any accountability.

My forum posts are intended to reflect frustration at the lack of communication, and outrage at the ethical failings. I have submitted several very detailed bug reports with every bit of info available to me as a player...and it sure is neat to drop an hour of gaming time to write such up, that's really what I'm paying for.

We've dropped most of the accounts in our family. My wife and sons have not logged in in over 6 months, they have moved on to other games. I'm still here, but spending less than ever, and honestly half the time I'm in game I'm logged in on my laptop to chat while I'm gaming somewhere else on my desktop. I want to play in Middle Earth. I miss it as I'm more and more removed from it. But the obvious drop in quality is something I can't quietly accept. The public has generally bought into the mantra of "all software is broken" but I know better -- there are bugs and glitches, and then there is fundamentally sloppy and shoddy work. It comes down to pride in one's work and basic ethical standards.

I guess they could always remove it from the store until they fix the problem...


Oh wait then everyone would be throwing temper tantrums because they couldn't buy content....

They should remove it from the store.

Selling a product you know to be faulty in any other industry is called fraud.