Thread: Remove Legendary Items

I didn't see a recent topic on this in my search, but with the addition of Starlit crystals to the game, I figured it would be appropriate to bring it up again.

In my opinion, the legendary item system is too complicated. How about they remove legendary items from the game and disperse their various functions to other in-game systems?

Here are some features of legendary items that could go elsewhere:

• legacies.
  • move to class traits and skills.
• in combat item-swapping for legacies
  • move to stances (i.e. skills) and spec-swapping
• relics
  • increasing stats on weapons
• end-game grind
  • move to RoR horses, raid armour, virtues, PvMP, skirmish soldiers
• tactical damage, tactical heal and shield rank bonus
  • character level and bonus stats on class items (i.e. LM book, Minstrel book, RK satchel, heavy shields)
• Star Lit Crystals
  • remove from the game

Opinions?

No. LI system may need tweaking, but not removed imo.

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

I didn't see a recent topic on this in my search, but with the addition of Starlit crystals to the game, I figured it would be appropriate to bring it up again.

In my opinion, the legendary item system is too complicated. How about they remove legendary items from the game and disperse their various functions to other in-game systems?

Here are some features of legendary items that could go elsewhere:

• legacies.
  • move to class traits and skills.
• in combat item-swapping for legacies
  • move to stances (i.e. skills) and spec-swapping
• relics
  • increasing stats on weapons
• end-game grind
  • move to RoR horses, raid armour, virtues, PvMP, skirmish soldiers
• tactical damage, tactical heal and shield rank bonus
  • character level and bonus stats on class items (i.e. LM book, Minstrel book, RK satchel, heavy shields)
• Star Lit Crystals
  • remove from the game

Opinions?

.../signed

will never ever happen for so many reasons already explained in countless threads.

Originally Posted by Catisa

will never ever happen for so many reasons already explained in countless threads.

I am indeed aware that Turbine has a financial intrest in keeping the LI system grindy, but I like to hope sometimes.

Edit: Well, not so much hope, but I like to keep the LI discussion tumbling.

Would need a new type of trait set for the legacy one, theres too many legacies,
Would take too many stances
Less grinding would be nice, but not remove it completely

This is something turbine will never ever do, it would cause so much frustration for people who have spent time on legacys, and how is the legendary system complicated? Its pretty basic, and it tells you what each legacy is right in front of you, So i definetely think this will be the worst thing if turbine removed legendary items, you need to think this through better, so many people have worked on the LI's for so long so why spoil there hard work?

Originally Posted by anonymousss

Would need a new type of trait set for the legacy one, theres too many legacies,
Would take too many stances
Less grinding would be nice, but not remove it completely

Now I acknowledge that there is a middle ground. But here is a stark proposal for a couple classes that I am familiar with, where I will list a bunch of legacies and say how they can be removed, moved to base skills, or moved to traits.

Captain

Weapon legacies:

• 1.1.1 To Arms Duration
  • add +5 seconds to base skill
• 1.1.2 Kick Cooldown
  • remove 30 seconds from this skill's base cooldown (to make it 30s by default)
• 1.1.3 Telling Mark Damage
  • make +10% by default
• 1.1.4 Devastating Blow Critical Rating
  • remove this legacy
• 1.1.5 Pressing Attack Critical Rating
  • remove this legacy too
• 1.1.6 Melee Skill Power Cost
  • fold into base skills
• 1.1.7 Maximum Targets for Pressing Attack
  • make a trait for this or give Pressing Attack more targets by default
• 1.1.8 Morale from Motivating Speech
  • make it +10% be default. swap weapons are so gauche
• 1.2.1 Cry Power Cost
  • fold into base skills
• 1.2.2 Tactics: On Guard Parry Rating Buff
  • fold into base skill
• 1.2.3 Tactics: Relentless Attack Critical Rating Buff
  • fold into base skill. buff sticks are dumb
• 1.2.4 Routing Cry Damage
  • add this to the routing cry trait
• 1.2.5 Blade of Elendil Damage
  • add to a trait or to base skill
• 1.2.6 Cutting Attack Bleed Damage
  • add this to a Lead the Charge trait
• 1.2.7 Defensive Strike Armour Buff
  • add this to a Leader of Men trait
• 1.2.8 Make Haste Duration
  • append this to a Lead the Charge trait

Emblem legacies:

• 2.1.1 Tactics: Focus in-Combat Power Regen Buff
  • fold into base skill
• 2.1.2 Healing from Rallying Cry
  • move to a HoH trait, or traitline bonus
• 2.1.3 Rallying Cry Cooldown
  • move to base skill. That this legacy is mandatory is a defect in the LI system.
• 2.1.4 Valiant Strike Morale Return
  • move to base skill
• 2.1.5 Healing from Strength of Will
  • move to base skill or eliminate
• 2.1.6 Vocal Skills Healing
  • move to trait line bonus and base skills
• 2.1.7 Melee Skills Healing
  • move to trait line bonus
• 2.1.8 Words of Courage Power and Morale Cost
  • move to trait line bonus or base skill
• 2.2.1 Time of Need Cooldown
  • ugh
• 2.2.2 Captain's Escape from Darkness Cooldown
  • swap emblem legacy. move to base skill
• 2.2.3 Muster Courage Cooldown
  • move to a Leader of Men trait or just fold into base skill
• 2.2.4 Time of Need Morale Cost
  • hmmm
• 2.2.5 Grave Wound Cooldown
  • move to a Leader of Men trait or traitline bonus
• 2.2.6 Shield of Dúnedain Cooldown
  • make part of the base skill. it's legendary
• 2.2.7 Shadow's Lament Cooldown
  • add to the Master of War trait
• 2.2.8 Words of Courage Pulses
  • add to a Hands of Healing trait or traitline bonus

Weapon damage and healing output should be scaled so that the captain isn't overpowered.

Champion


Weapon:

• 1.1.1 Area of Effect Damage
  • Make a class trait for the AoE line or just fold into base skills
• 1.1.2 Brutal Strikes Damage
  • fold into base skill or Berzerker trait
• 1.1.3 Critical Damage Multiplier
  • fold into base skills. this legacy is mandatory.
• 1.1.4 Feral and Savage Strikes Damage
  • fold into base skill or Berzerker trait
• 1.1.5 Ferocious Strikes Cooldown
  • add to base skill. it's supposed to be legendary
• 1.1.6 Relentless/Remorseless Strikes Damage
  • add to base skill
• 1.1.7 Rend Bleed Damage
  • add to a class trait
• 1.1.8 Wild Attack Damage
  • add to class trait or base skill
• 1.2.1 Combat-only Effect Removal Delay
  • is this legacy still around?
• 1.2.2 Fear Nothing Cooldown
  • add to base skill. it's a legendary trait
• 1.2.3 Hamstring Duration
  • add to base skill
• 1.2.4 Horn Damage
  • add to base skill or Deadly Storm trait line
• 1.2.5 Increased Rend Armour Reduction
  • add to base skill when rend armour reduction is traited
• 1.2.6 Reduced Cooldown for Battle Frenzy
  • add to base skill, or remove legacy, or add to trait
• 1.2.7 Sprint Duration
  • add to base skill
• 1.2.8 Sudden Defence Cooldown
  • hmmm. maybe make a function of stance or traitline

Rune:

• 2.1.1 Ardour/Glory Parry and Evade Rating
  • add to Ardour and Glory or to a non-legendary rune
• 2.1.2 Ardour/Glory Pip Interval
  • ---
• 2.1.3 Dire Need Skill Cooldown
  • add to Martial Champion trait line
• 2.1.4 Ebbing Ire Cooldown
  • add to base skill
• 2.1.5 Reduced Power Cost for Swift Strike
  • add to base skill or Berzerker traitline
• 2.1.6 Increased Heal for Bracing Attack
  • add to base skill or Martial Champion traitline
• 2.1.7 Increased Stun Duration for Champion's Horn
  • this one is kinda odd. swap rune material
• 2.1.8 Blade Line Area of Effect Power Cost
  • add to Deadly Storm traitline
• 2.2.1 Ardour/Glory in-Combat Power Regen
  • fold into Ardour/Glory stances with traits
• 2.2.2 Adamant/Invincible Duration
  • add to Martial Champion traitline
• 2.2.3 Rising Ire Cooldown
  • add to base skill or to Glory stance
• 2.2.4 Heroics Morale Heal Chance
  • hmmm
• 2.2.5 Rend Pulses
  • hmmm, trait for this one
• 2.2.6 Fight On Duration
  • add to base skill. it's a legendary trait
• 2.2.7 Increased Range for Hamstring
  • add to base skill
• 2.2.8 Strikes Line Power Cost
  • add to base skills

All damage and self heals should be scaled so that the champion isn't overpowered.

So, my cursory rule of thumb is that Long cooldown reduction legacies that would go on a swap LI should be eliminated and added to the base skill. Cooldown legacies that affect short cooldown skills like Rallying Cry should just be added to base skills or traits. Damage output legacies should be added to traits or base skills, or adjusted for balance. Would any of this work? Or would the game get boring without having to build your LIs after every level cap raise? Maybe the legacies need a reshuffling.

Originally Posted by dopespliff

This is something turbine will never ever do, it would cause so much frustration for people who have spent time on legacys, and how is the legendary system complicated? Its pretty basic, and it tells you what each legacy is right in front of you, So i definetely think this will be the worst thing if turbine removed legendary items, you need to think this through better, so many people have worked on the LI's for so long so why spoil there hard work?

The level cap raise is scheduled to spoil their hard work anyway. It's a feature of the LI system.

I'm all for reworking LIs, primarily to get rid of the obnoxious "forced retirement" each time they raise the level cap. But get rid of them entirely? Absolutely not. This game needs more dynamic, customizable gear - not less. Static treasure tables are predictable and boring, and exacerbate the Clone Effect in MMOs. Static crafting is equally predictable and boring. Giving us more ways to customize both treasure system gear and crafted gear would be most welcome.

Khafar

Originally Posted by dietlbomb

The level cap raise is scheduled to spoil their hard work anyway. It's a feature of the LI system.

Hmm still you don't get the point we still can take legacys from the LIs when you deconstruct them, So why should they take away the legendary item system, The majoritie of lotro players have no problem what so ever with the item system, Its very basically layed out, and should be left as it is, yeah it could be improved on the weapons, but not removed, it ruins the aspect of upgrading your legacys through your weapons, and encourages even level 75's to keep on working on them, Also works out better because it can lead to slayed deeds being completed when you deliberatly leveling your LI's etc Yeah theres xp runes for them but some people find it better levelling there weapons through slayer deeds because its more benificial etc. LI levelling=better legacy tiers = slayer deeds complete= virtues = Turbine points!. This shows most reasons why they should not remove it, And they really shouldnt remove the crystals, This intices even more people to go in instances, skirmish raids, draigoch, ToO and many more because they want the crystals, I think you'll find 9/10 people will majorly disagree with you here. Removing LI's is a bad idea all round, It will annoy so many people who have been saving shards relics, and the scrolls of delving and empowerment, I personally think turbine will lose alot of people on lotro if they did this, because people will feel like all they worked for and saved away is for nothing, and they would of waster hours, time after time leveling there weapon and upgrading legacys. Theres so many more reasons but im not going to say otherwise i will be here all day so yeah just think about it abit more mate. Yes i appreciate your being open about your idea but i just really dont see it working, It would lead to turbine losing a lot of money due to people rage quitting because it would feel like turbine has took a big dump on us if they do this.

Thanks for the replies, both positive and negative. I hadn't seen many suggestions to eliminate the LI system, so I was wondering what the community's opinion would be.

Originally Posted by Khafar

I'm all for reworking LIs, primarily to get rid of the obnoxious "forced retirement" each time they raise the level cap. But get rid of them entirely? Absolutely not. This game needs more dynamic, customizable gear - not less. Static treasure tables are predictable and boring, and exacerbate the Clone Effect in MMOs. Static crafting is equally predictable and boring. Giving us more ways to customize both treasure system gear and crafted gear would be most welcome.

Khafar

This would also be an interesting direction to take the game's weapon system.

Originally Posted by dopespliff

Hmm still you don't get the point we still can take legacys from the LIs when you deconstruct them, So why should they take away the legendary item system, The majoritie of lotro players have no problem what so ever with the item system, Its very basically layed out, and should be left as it is, yeah it could be improved on the weapons, but not removed, it ruins the aspect of upgrading your legacys through your weapons, and encourages even level 75's to keep on working on them, Also works out better because it can lead to slayed deeds being completed when you deliberatly leveling your LI's etc Yeah theres xp runes for them but some people find it better levelling there weapons through slayer deeds because its more benificial etc. LI levelling=better legacy tiers = slayer deeds complete= virtues = Turbine points!. This shows most reasons why they should not remove it, And they really shouldnt remove the crystals, This intices even more people to go in instances, skirmish raids, draigoch, ToO and many more because they want the crystals, I think you'll find 9/10 people will majorly disagree with you here. Removing LI's is a bad idea all round, It will annoy so many people who have been saving shards relics, and the scrolls of delving and empowerment, I personally think turbine will lose alot of people on lotro if they did this, because people will feel like all they worked for and saved away is for nothing, and they would of waster hours, time after time leveling there weapon and upgrading legacys. Theres so many more reasons but im not going to say otherwise i will be here all day so yeah just think about it abit more mate. Yes i appreciate your being open about your idea but i just really dont see it working, It would lead to turbine losing a lot of money due to people rage quitting because it would feel like turbine has took a big dump on us if they do this.

I agree that they shouldn't take any action that will annoy a huge fraction of the player base. A good portion of the players prefer a more complex game to a simpler one. Thanks!

Originally Posted by dopespliff

This is something turbine will never ever do, it would cause so much frustration for people who have spent time on legacys, and how is the legendary system complicated? Its pretty basic, and it tells you what each legacy is right in front of you, So i definetely think this will be the worst thing if turbine removed legendary items, you need to think this through better, so many people have worked on the LI's for so long so why spoil there hard work?

Just out of curiosity, how many First Age LIs have you replaced? I've replaced several (weapons and class items). It is, frankly, quite depressing when your work on LIs is spoiled with *every* expansion. Even moreso when your work on your LI is spolied every three to five levels.

Originally Posted by dopespliff

Hmm still you don't get the point we still can take legacys from the LIs when you deconstruct them, So why should they take away the legendary item system, The majoritie of lotro players have no problem what so ever with the item system, Its very basically layed out, and should be left as it is, yeah it could be improved on the weapons, but not removed, it ruins the aspect of upgrading your legacys through your weapons, and encourages even level 75's to keep on working on them, Also works out better because it can lead to slayed deeds being completed when you deliberatly leveling your LI's etc Yeah theres xp runes for them but some people find it better levelling there weapons through slayer deeds because its more benificial etc. LI levelling=better legacy tiers = slayer deeds complete= virtues = Turbine points!. This shows most reasons why they should not remove it, And they really shouldnt remove the crystals, This intices even more people to go in instances, skirmish raids, draigoch, ToO and many more because they want the crystals, I think you'll find 9/10 people will majorly disagree with you here. Removing LI's is a bad idea all round, It will annoy so many people who have been saving shards relics, and the scrolls of delving and empowerment, I personally think turbine will lose alot of people on lotro if they did this, because people will feel like all they worked for and saved away is for nothing, and they would of waster hours, time after time leveling there weapon and upgrading legacys. Theres so many more reasons but im not going to say otherwise i will be here all day so yeah just think about it abit more mate. Yes i appreciate your being open about your idea but i just really dont see it working, It would lead to turbine losing a lot of money due to people rage quitting because it would feel like turbine has took a big dump on us if they do this.

1. Dude, paragraphs, and periods! lol. Those would make your post much easier to read.

2. Taking legacies off of LIs doesn't validate the current LI system. It just makes it a heck of a lot more grindy and less random since we have to grind-'til-we're-blind to upgrade those transferred legacies. And that wouldn't be a problem for me, but the grind is just so overwhelming. It's everywhere you look in the game. Every boss has to drop loot that upgrades your LIs somehow, either with ixp runes or relics. Even regular mobs often drop this kind of stuff. LI grindy-ness permeates the entire game.

3. Maybe the majority of current players have no problem with LIs, but my kin has left the game almost entirely and it's the painfully obvious grind behind LIs that's driven them away (most had toons capped at 65 or 75; LIs did NOT keep them in the game, quite the opposite, in fact). The game just isn't fun when the grind is so on-top of everything else. How long before the current players realize the futility of this system and quit? Then Turbine will need even more new customers... (and, of course, it costs 3-5 times as much to lure in a new customer as it does to keep an old one)

4. The LI system may be user-friendly as far as complexity/simplicity goes, but that doesn't make it fun or easy.

It's not fun or easy and it is insanely grindy. To the point where I'm sitting on symbols and wondering if it's really worth it to even *make* a couple of first agers...

Because in three or four months they'll be utterly obsolete anyway, and second agers will do just fine for now. I'm one of those weird people who raids because - I like raiding.

I don't slot T8 or Great River melded relics because they're grindy, pricey, and give nearly imperceptible benefits, and I don't want to have to fall into the habit of buying relic removal scrolls.

Do use crystals I pick up in instances/raids, but have noticed that a lot, a LOT of folks roll on them, and if they win them, turn around and sell them for 50 gold.

Don't know if this is what Turbine had in mind, don't really care. I'd be good with normal weapons with better stats - they don't call it Lord of the Grind for nothing. Realistically, though - LIs are a huge cash cow for Turbine. I expect them to get worse. I doubt they'll ever get better.

Originally Posted by ElanMorinTedroni

1. Dude, paragraphs, and periods! lol. Those would make your post much easier to read.

2. Taking legacies off of LIs doesn't validate the current LI system. It just makes it a heck of a lot more grindy and less random since we have to grind-'til-we're-blind to upgrade those transferred legacies. And that wouldn't be a problem for me, but the grind is just so overwhelming. It's everywhere you look in the game. Every boss has to drop loot that upgrades your LIs somehow, either with ixp runes or relics. Even regular mobs often drop this kind of stuff. LI grindy-ness permeates the entire game.

3. Maybe the majority of current players have no problem with LIs, but my kin has left the game almost entirely and it's the painfully obvious grind behind LIs that's driven them away (most had toons capped at 65 or 75; LIs did NOT keep them in the game, quite the opposite, in fact). The game just isn't fun when the grind is so on-top of everything else. How long before the current players realize the futility of this system and quit? Then Turbine will need even more new customers... (and, of course, it costs 3-5 times as much to lure in a new customer as it does to keep an old one)

4. The LI system may be user-friendly as far as complexity/simplicity goes, but that doesn't make it fun or easy.

Yes but think about if your at level cap etc and surely you must do raids? you get xp runes from them, Yes you have a point it is a lot of effort but it is a part of the game now and has for a while. If they did remove the LI system all together, I think this would draw more players away then it would back into the game , this is debatable, but thats my opinion

Have I posted to say I hate this idea yet? No? Ok, well, as someone has put a lot of time, energy and attention into legendary items let me just say, "NO!"

One of the worst things a game dev can do, is change existing items. Yuck! Every game I have been in that did this watched a mass exodus of players as soon as the patch hit.

Originally Posted by Okokdir

Have I posted to say I hate this idea yet? No? Ok, well, as someone has put a lot of time, energy and attention into legendary items let me just say, "NO!"

One of the worst things a game dev can do, is change existing items. Yuck! Every game I have been in that did this watched a mass exodus of players as soon as the patch hit.

Well, I wouldn't want them to do something so drastic as to delete all your current items. My suggestion is extreme, and therefore unlikely. But if it were to be implemented, it should be gradual and it should be accompanied with a new level cap.

My question is what is the maximum amount of change that could come to the LI system while still keeping the game fun? Judging from the responses in this thread, not so much as to remove LIs.