Thread: Wardens

nerf

/wurdz

Well duh...

We have found a cure for wardens, defiler and wl. Idk what the defiler curse is but with wl banner of terror it puts the best warden on our servers power down to a max of 1 its awesome.

No to the cure. Petition to nerf overpowered unsoloable class to oblivion.

Originally Posted by dr.love

No to the cure. Petition to nerf overpowered unsoloable class to oblivion.

Awww, did someone die?

Originally Posted by crazybob24

We have found a cure for wardens, defiler and wl. Idk what the defiler curse is but with wl banner of terror it puts the best warden on our servers power down to a max of 1 its awesome.

This.
123456

It seems as though warden is not going to be nerfed anytime soon, so you should probably use the cure suggested by the other players.

I understand your pain however, continuosly fighting and dying to a class that is almost immortal is indeed an evil fate. Just be glad you are not on Riddermark!

Originally Posted by crazybob24

We have found a cure for wardens, defiler and wl. Idk what the defiler curse is but with wl banner of terror it puts the best warden on our servers power down to a max of 1 its awesome.

When I was R6!? me and a very high ranked Reaver Took out a Very high ranked WD.
I kept flies (not traited) on her, and every debuff/dot (for my rank) I had, and kept the Reaver healed, but I was always at range ... Was close as all 3 of us had serious power issues iirc.

Another time I (R6!?) could not take morale down on the said WD below 75% with like 5+ other low/mid rank creeps who were all in melee range.

I believe the WD LEECH skills with 6m range was the point there.

Wardens are not the priority imo. Nerf minstrels, champs and RKs.

Originally Posted by Squelcher

Wardens are not the priority imo. Nerf minstrels, champs and RKs.

Minstrel and champ can be zerged to a pulp. A warden can outheal a creep raid and a tyrant monkeying on it's back. Please nerf.

Originally Posted by dr.love

Minstrel and champ can be zerged to a pulp. A warden can outheal a creep raid and a tyrant monkeying on it's back. Please nerf.

I think the problem here is the ability of the creeps, not the warden.

Originally Posted by dr.love

Minstrel and champ can be zerged to a pulp. A warden can outheal a creep raid and a tyrant monkeying on it's back. Please nerf.

But at the same time it can't really do anything other than heal. Minstrels/champs/RKs are a direct threat. RKs can heal themselves just as much as wardens can and can also kill creeps very easily.

Nerf shield wardens, spear is fine. I just know we'll get nerfed if shield wardens do

Originally Posted by Squelcher

RKs can heal themselves just as much as wardens can and can also kill creeps very easily.

I lol'd. They cant do both at the same time or in the same traits....

Just ignore shield wardens until a defiler shows up with flies. Shield wardens hit weaker than HH Farmers.

Originally Posted by gageithman

Nerf shield wardens, spear is fine. I just know we'll get nerfed if shield wardens do




I lol'd. They cant do both at the same time or in the same traits....

I wasnt suggesting they could. But they can just hop on back to GV and be ready to start the killing at a moments notice.

Alternative: learn how Wardens work* and try to use that to your advantage, same as any class on either side.

Sure, a shield warden is seemingly impossible to kill 1v1, but it's also nearly impossible for him to kill you unless you decide to stick around long enough to let him do so.

*(Hint stolen from Cmalberg, in another thread: keep an eye on what stance the Warden is in. Learn what the stances do and what their limitations are.)

Originally Posted by Lestache

Alternative: learn how Wardens work* and try to use that to your advantage, same as any class on either side.

Sure, a shield warden is seemingly impossible to kill 1v1, but it's also nearly impossible for him to kill you unless you decide to stick around long enough to let him do so.

*(Hint stolen from Cmalberg, in another thread: keep an eye on what stance the Warden is in. Learn what the stances do and what their limitations are.)

Because they can't stance dance...

Originally Posted by deeman25845601

Because they can't stance dance...

They can, but switching stances clears whatever gambit they've built up to that point.

If a warden is averagely played and decently geared (with 5/1 spear lord or 3 spear lord/3 solidarity) the trait lines/stances utilized are arbitrary. They simply influence which stance performs better; which roles are performed better.

Shield line wardens are still able to deal damage. They are not at the maximal output, but in recklessness/assailment they are not negligible to the state where a creep can simply run away (unless they have escape skills). If a warden idly sits there spamming self heals, they are under performing.

Formerly in update 6, defilers with r15 improved flies trait were able to drain the warden's power in 1v1. In the past month and a half, evidence of the 5 set spear lord armor has removed the threat. The armor grants a very fast/spammable decent damage gambit, that is also an interrupt to apply a -inc healing debuff that stacks (duration 30 secs, can stack to -90% or -100% based on rotation).

If a warden should so choose in a 1v1, they have the option of using a small cd (2:30) that grants them an addition 40% mitigation for 30 seconds.

Alter the variables for good warden and good gear, the disparity becomes larger.

As for Xv1 conditions, the warden is easily beatable assuming the group is not composed of greenies. Power drains are by far the most efficient means of killing the warden.
*edit* This being said, the evidence does not determine if the warden is overpowered. The class has recently been tailored to the average warden player, since the comparative class difficulty is higher. As a result, the wardens at the higher caliber of play stand out more, and the average player can now contend. The difficulty of class should correlate with power level/effectiveness. The effectiveness of wardens does produce glaring contrast to the current status of creep classes.

Originally Posted by Lestache

They can, but switching stances clears whatever gambit they've built up to that point.

Not to mention the lost cool downs on masteries and the cool downs on stances themselves. They switch to determ? Get out of range. As soon as you see the switch to assailment get back into range. Rinse and repeat.

Wardens can easily be beat, you just have to play smart. Same goes with any class. Except reavers. Poor, poor reavers.

Originally Posted by SirDoctorofTardis

If a warden is averagely played and decently geared (with 5/1 spear lord or 3 spear lord/3 solidarity) the trait lines/stances utilized are arbitrary. They simply influence which stance performs better; which roles are performed better.

Shield line wardens are still able to deal damage. They are not at the maximal output, but in recklessness/assailment they are not negligible to the state where a creep can simply run away (unless they have escape skills). If a warden idly sits there spamming self heals, they are under performing.

Formerly in update 6, defilers with r15 improved flies trait were able to drain the warden's power in 1v1. In the past month and a half, evidence of the 5 set spear lord armor has removed the threat. The armor grants a very fast/spammable decent damage gambit, that is also an interrupt to apply a -inc healing debuff that stacks (duration 30 secs, can stack to -90% or -100% based on rotation).

If a warden should so choose in a 1v1, they have the option of using a small cd (2:30) that grants them an addition 40% mitigation for 30 seconds.

Alter the variables for good warden and good gear, the disparity becomes larger.

As for Xv1 conditions, the warden is easily beatable assuming the group is not composed of greenies. Power drains are by far the most efficient means of killing the warden.
*edit* This being said, the evidence does not determine if the warden is overpowered. The class has recently been tailored to the average warden player, since the comparative class difficulty is higher. As a result, the wardens at the higher caliber of play stand out more, and the average player can now contend. The difficulty of class should correlate with power level/effectiveness. The effectiveness of wardens does produce glaring contrast to the current status of creep classes.

How exactly does an inc healing debuff remove the threat of all your power being sapped more than twice over the in the duration of the flies? 0.o

Edit: In 1v1, I can see how it changes things.

But out open fighting it wouldn't really change anything.
Wardens don't need a nerf if you are able to hug a P2W defiler!

Originally Posted by SirDoctorofTardis

If a warden is averagely played and decently geared (with 5/1 spear lord or 3 spear lord/3 solidarity) the trait lines/stances utilized are arbitrary. They simply influence which stance performs better; which roles are performed better.

Shield line wardens are still able to deal damage. They are not at the maximal output, but in recklessness/assailment they are not negligible to the state where a creep can simply run away (unless they have escape skills). If a warden idly sits there spamming self heals, they are under performing.

Formerly in update 6, defilers with r15 improved flies trait were able to drain the warden's power in 1v1. In the past month and a half, evidence of the 5 set spear lord armor has removed the threat. The armor grants a very fast/spammable decent damage gambit, that is also an interrupt to apply a -inc healing debuff that stacks (duration 30 secs, can stack to -90% or -100% based on rotation).

If a warden should so choose in a 1v1, they have the option of using a small cd (2:30) that grants them an addition 40% mitigation for 30 seconds.

Alter the variables for good warden and good gear, the disparity becomes larger.

As for Xv1 conditions, the warden is easily beatable assuming the group is not composed of greenies. Power drains are by far the most efficient means of killing the warden.
*edit* This being said, the evidence does not determine if the warden is overpowered. The class has recently been tailored to the average warden player, since the comparative class difficulty is higher. As a result, the wardens at the higher caliber of play stand out more, and the average player can now contend. The difficulty of class should correlate with power level/effectiveness. The effectiveness of wardens does produce glaring contrast to the current status of creep classes.

The class has been tailored so that any noob can be unstoppable, unkillable, god mode. Nerf please

Originally Posted by dr.love

The class has been tailored so that any noob can be unstoppable, unkillable, god mode. Nerf please

Orion mentioned a self heal nerf for wardens/minstrels in the ettenmoors.

Wonder if it will be part of these continued revisions.

Originally Posted by Untg99

Orion mentioned a self heal nerf for wardens/minstrels in the ettenmoors.

Wonder if it will be part of these continued revisions.

Source?


1234

Originally Posted by Garathas

Source?


1234

I can't find it atm, but he did say he wanted to limit warden heal pulses to 1 or limit the targets for aoe leeches. Idk about minis though.

This was right after U6 iirc, so dont expect it.

Not sure Champs need to be nerfed, I always thought the champ class should be a big damage doer. The main problem is that with the combined skills given support classes like Minis, Cappys, RK's and LM's Champs are so hard to take down, that they have more time to slice creeps to death.

Minis and RK's yes, and wardens really need need tweaking.

Originally Posted by Untg99

Orion mentioned a self heal nerf for wardens/minstrels in the ettenmoors.

Wonder if it will be part of these continued revisions.

They also asid they will change commendation pricing so you can recieve all skills at cap (dev diary) and that there's a new map just around the corner (insert every major update here)

4x Shadow Pack = Dead Warden in 30seconds, they can pop as many cool downs as they want, they will die anyway.

Originally Posted by Zlaughter

4x Shadow Pack = Dead Warden in 30seconds, they can pop as many cool downs as they want, they will die anyway.

then they use never surrender and defiant challenge.

Originally Posted by Zlaughter

4x Shadow Pack = Dead Warden in 30seconds, they can pop as many cool downs as they want, they will die anyway.

Warden moves out of puddle - plan foiled. Petition to give all creeps -incoming healing skills.

Creeps complain that they cant 1v1 shield wardens and win so wardens are overpowered. I argue that since shield wardens cant really kill creeps either that all creeps are overpowered and in need of immediate nerf!

Ok the above is sarcasm.. But seriously how is a warden OP if he couldnt kill you if he wanted to? Redline wardens are a pretty fair fight in most cases from what ive seen. They tend to be squishy but can dish out nice damage.

Originally Posted by Erasluindor

Creeps complain that they cant 1v1 shield wardens and win so wardens are overpowered. I argue that since shield wardens cant really kill creeps either that all creeps are overpowered and in need of immediate nerf!

Ok the above is sarcasm.. But seriously how is a warden OP if he couldnt kill you if he wanted to? Redline wardens are a pretty fair fight in most cases from what ive seen. They tend to be squishy but can dish out nice damage.

The problem is, a Warden can come out in the moors in either DPS stance and fight like that. If he gets in trouble, all he has to do is switch stances, and assuming he has a few of the right traits, he can easily rebuild his morale.

Even if the Warden is fully spear traited (Which would be either a self-nerf by an honorable warden, or a supreme act of stupidity) he can still give himself decent self heals. Certainly enough to outheal or stay on par with just about every single creep's DPS in a 1v1.

Originally Posted by Andared

The problem is, a Warden can come out in the moors in either DPS stance and fight like that. If he gets in trouble, all he has to do is switch stances, and assuming he has a few of the right traits, he can easily rebuild his morale.

Even if the Warden is fully spear traited (Which would be either a self-nerf by an honorable warden, or a supreme act of stupidity) he can still give himself decent self heals. Certainly enough to outheal or stay on par with just about every single creep's DPS in a 1v1.

I run five red, two yellow (jav cooldown and +crit). I have enough dps to bring down any creep 1v1. NS+leach will keep me alive against MT+uruk.

But your point is correct about heals. If I felt like healing in that particular build I could stay on my feet. Shield wardens are no different than any other player who cares little about the fight and only wants the win.

Originally Posted by Untg99

How exactly does an inc healing debuff remove the threat of all your power being sapped more than twice over the in the duration of the flies? 0.o

Edit: In 1v1, I can see how it changes things.

But out open fighting it wouldn't really change anything.
Wardens don't need a nerf if you are able to hug a P2W defiler!

Because there are defilers everywhere in the 'Moors, under every rock; especially the ones with purchased skills/traits.

Wardens needs buffs tbh, it takes too long for them to solo a tyrant

The complaints about wardens are oversimplified and put together without any thought.

The warden class, by comparison, is the most difficult class to play well in game. I specify "comparison" since the class is not difficult by any means. There is no refutation of this point. Wardens are the least played class in the ettenmoors/in-game despite being labeled an "overpowered" class by some. Clearly the difficulty of the class inhibits the increase in play exhibited by other colloquially termed overpowered classes (ex: champ/minstrel). More importantly because a player is a warden does not mean they are overpowered, as evidenced by the wardens that fail to perform well in pvp.

Now let's explore the logical effect of nerfing the warden's current status. If the capabilities drop, the mechanics of the class that provided the foundation for the difficulty of the class will not only remain the same, but increase since the class must perform even better to yield the same positive result. The effect is that players are penalized for playing a harder class. The current state of the warden matches the difficulty of play with capability of class, as it should.

If one class is well designed, while other classes are not, does it mean said class is overpowered? No. It means that the other classes are not well designed. If other classes are well designed, but one class greatly out powers the others, does that mean said class is overpowered? Yes. Rather than claiming a class is "overpowered" ask yourself, "is my class currently well designed?". If your answer is no, then argue for a better class. If these efforts are futile, then so are complaints about one class.

If Orion eventually comes around to add the moors-only self healing adjustment he mentioned to the warden, so be it. The adjustment will likely not remove the ability to self heal, just the degree of self healing, but not to the point of impotency for it would destroy a class role. If a warden is running shield line, they are choosing the path of least resistance, either because of their own inability to play well or a desire to feel as a strong player in combat.

As for how to deal with a shield line warden, if you are 1v1, you are likely screwed. But if you see them on the open field, the fact that they last so long is a demonstrating of inability to think. Creeps are more than able to negate a warden self healing off of leaches/shield line. Little steps, that should be inherent in all combat: power drains are effective, stacking -inc. healing debuffs, +attack duration is effective, moving out of gambit building range is effective.

As for myself, I have no personal invested interest in shield line. For over a year I have nerfed myself by wearing 0 to 2 pieces of armor in spear line to gain a semblance of balance for 1v1. In update 6, against maxed audacity creeps, I would only wear shoulders and boots, never swapping to determination (deficit in comparative audacity, plus stats, plus mitigation, plus set bonuses). In this build, defilers with the power draining flies trait would prove unbeatable. I imagine if I played now with the star-light crystals that more issues would arise. I merely recognize the error in oversimplified arguments.

Originally Posted by SirDoctorofTardis

The complaints about wardens are oversimplified and put together without any thought.

The warden class, by comparison, is the most difficult class to play well in game. I specify "comparison" since the class is not difficult by any means. There is no refutation of this point. Wardens are the least played class in the ettenmoors/in-game despite being labeled an "overpowered" class by some. Clearly the difficulty of the class inhibits the increase in play exhibited by other colloquially termed overpowered classes (ex: champ/minstrel). More importantly because a player is a warden does not mean they are overpowered, as evidenced by the wardens that fail to perform well in pvp.

Now let's explore the logical effect of nerfing the warden's current status. If the capabilities drop, the mechanics of the class that provided the foundation for the difficulty of the class will not only remain the same, but increase since the class must perform even better to yield the same positive result. The effect is that players are penalized for playing a harder class. The current state of the warden matches the difficulty of play with capability of class, as it should.

If one class is well designed, while other classes are not, does it mean said class is overpowered? No. It means that the other classes are not well designed. If other classes are well designed, but one class greatly out powers the others, does that mean said class is overpowered? Yes. Rather than claiming a class is "overpowered" ask yourself, "is my class currently well designed?". If your answer is no, then argue for a better class. If these efforts are futile, then so are complaints about one class.

If Orion eventually comes around to add the moors-only self healing adjustment he mentioned to the warden, so be it. The adjustment will likely not remove the ability to self heal, just the degree of self healing, but not to the point of impotency for it would destroy a class role. If a warden is running shield line, they are choosing the path of least resistance, either because of their own inability to play well or a desire to feel as a strong player in combat.

As for how to deal with a shield line warden, if you are 1v1, you are likely screwed. But if you see them on the open field, the fact that they last so long is a demonstrating of inability to think. Creeps are more than able to negate a warden self healing off of leaches/shield line. Little steps, that should be inherent in all combat: power drains are effective, stacking -inc. healing debuffs, +attack duration is effective, moving out of gambit building range is effective.

As for myself, I have no personal invested interest in shield line. For over a year I have nerfed myself by wearing 0 to 2 pieces of armor in spear line to gain a semblance of balance for 1v1. In update 6, against maxed audacity creeps, I would only wear shoulders and boots, never swapping to determination (deficit in comparative audacity, plus stats, plus mitigation, plus set bonuses). In this build, defilers with the power draining flies trait would prove unbeatable. I imagine if I played now with the star-light crystals that more issues would arise. I merely recognize the error in oversimplified arguments.

wait wait wait the class is not op you just need to nerf yourself

Originally Posted by crazybob24

wait wait wait the class is not op you just need to nerf yourself

Think about it.

Is it a reflection of the player or the class? If the class, then one would expect other wardens capable of replicating the same effect. However we know for fact that other wardens in spear line, with armor on are evaluated as "balanced" or "fair play" so it is not the class. If you argue the spear line warden is overpowered now, the argument is still invalidated. I have been doing this for over a year, before the revamp, so before wardens were deemed "overpowered".

Ask yourself, does it make any sense to curtail the design of a class to the capabilities of one player?

i have a few examples of overpowered classes.
1 a warden on gladden whoose name i will omit(you know who im talking about right guys?) leech heals himself every time he gets in a fight. i saw him take down 6 creeps(includeing me) by himself, useing leech heals.
2 a mini whoose name i will also omit( she has killed me like 12 times. and set fireworks off on my body once.) who heals herself in a one on one fight(seriously?) she simple jumps around in circles untill you die.
3 an RK whoose name i have forgotten who likes too zap you with lightning untill you die takeing advantage of the stun effect.
all three of these classes are overpowered and need to be stoped. i have found only one solution which works about 50% of the time.
ZERG RUSH.(thumbs up if you know what game that came from)

im not asking for nerfs because we all know that will never happen i just want them to buff creeps maby make wls able to surivle fire from like 12 creeps when there in melee range or give reavers bubbles (please don't give reavers bubbles make wrath a togle or something but its a comparison) just buff creeps so they will have a fair chance against all freeps just as basically all freeps have a chance against all creeps
let the hunter qq begin