Thread: Quantity vs Quality...Which do you prefer?

We have quantity in LoTRO and then some. Expansion once per year, a couple or 3 content updates every year. And all the attendant bugs, hiccups and hair pulling inconsistancies(beyond the consistantance of the bugs etc). It seems every time we get something new, we see something old broken or worse still, something that has been broken is still not fixed(Draigoch comes to mind here).

What we lack is quality. Now I know something as complex as an MMO is going to have some bugs, it is inevitable. But need they be as bad and as consistant as they are now? I think not.

So what does the playbase want? Quantity regardless of polish or the lack of therein? Or do you want Quality, even if it means less frequent content upgrades and/or expansions?

Being blessed with an attention span far beyond that of a gnat I want Quality. I'll play the same old stuff over and over if I know that future holds a well polished expansion or content update. As it is I seem to be playing the same old stuff anyway while waiting on some bug or other to be fixed. So why not make me wait for the polished version instead of waiting on the fix for the broken already released version?

Quality 1

Quantity 0

Quality, absolutely no question. I would prefer if Turbine would just leave the current end game content alone for a while and instead focus on balancing/updating classes (this DOES NOT mean simply adding new skills to our already crowded bars) and fixing the multitude of bugs.

While I (and assume many others) are on the Quality over Quantity group ...

I must play the devil's advocate and ask how will this make turbine $$money$$ ???

because lets face it, that seems the ONLY driving factor of Turbine these days.

It really down to a question of Turbine's internal practices, tooling, policies and funding. You specify - no bugs - wait - you will never get new content. It takes a very long time to polish the content.

IMHO - Turbine is well under the game standards for quality in the super fancy MMO market. Fixing a system that is spitting out defective updates. It is not easy. Many companies do not have the management will power to do so.

Remember Turbine is now part of Time Warner - a public stock company which is driven by monthly and quarterly income targets. You often end up in this situation.

Project leader - We need to hit the stop button - Fix everything - deliver updates further apart or smaller updates with less bugs.

Accounting person - How do you plan to meet your targets?

Project Leader - We need new lower targets.

Accounting person - Meet the target. Or we find a replacement for you. Your choice.

You want a change in policy. The customers have to punish the company providing the product by refusing to buy or use the product. Money is one universal language that everyone in business (employees, leaders, customers) understands.

Quality - LOTRO has a lot of great content already. I think quality and quantity both could be increased if they created a way to play at lower levels. Then the end-gamers could play the large quantity of old content to the hearts content again while waiting for the higher quality updates to come out.

Quality over quantity, for sure. But I was about to mention the money push the developer have, but someone done it before me. New contain bring money, either in subscriptions for a few month or in direct purchase or in points purchase. Moneytization of the is the key problem here.

What I want and what is feasible are two entirely different things.

Yula hit the nail on the head (as he often does).

This also comes to mind: Fast, cheap, reliable. Pick any two.



"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

Quality. And then, quality. After that, quantity, but only quality quantity, with a period following to up the quality if needed before pushing more quantity.

Some of us have been here 5 years, and have done everything on multiple alts. It's been fun. And frustrating. And fun.

However, there are a lot of newer players around, meaning 0-2 years in game. A recent conversation within a PUG was that there is nothing new to do in the game. It's so boring, Turbine sucks because they won't give us new content, etc., etc. After asking a couple questions I realized I was the only vet in the group, the rest were in for less than a year. I asked if they had run CD/Uru (preferably at level!), and only 1 had (at level, but with 2 75s in group...since my RK can solo both I don't count this as having run it), Barad Gulan? None. Fornost? None. GA? One. Bogbereth? None. The Rift? None. The various Mirkwood 3-6-12 mans? Three of them had done some, but none had done all. Forochel? Two had done part of it. Angmar? Three had done part of it. School/Library? Only two had. Yeah, anyone who's been around a few years is boggling at that last one

There is content available, but a lot of players choose to not play it. People choose to rush through, skip as much as possible, and count only the latest end-game grind as "content." By that criteria, there will never be "new" content because the new is the status quo, and the next new is always out of reach.

The game has a lot to do, and in the last year Turbine has gotten a lot better at providing small chunks of new to do -- but a lot of it has been buggy, defective, or downright non-functional.

I think the problem -- and take this with an extra grain of salt because my experience is with a different gaming company -- is that there is more money to be made off of new players than keeping old players happy. Also, there is more money to be made off of players who come, play/shop a bit, leave for a few months, and then return to play/shop for a few, than in keeping ongoing players happy. So, there can actually be a business case made for maintaining a certain level of customer dissatisfaction while providing periodic bursts of shiny new toys -- form a certain perspective the ups and downs make more revenue than a steady medium.

Solidly back on topic -- I vote for quality! Obviously there are a lot of dollars voting the other way right now.

Originally Posted by RJFerret

This also comes to mind: Fast, cheap, reliable. Pick any two.

Oh that was very well said! I love it!

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

You want a change in policy. The customers have to punish the company providing the product by refusing to buy or use the product. Money is one universal language that everyone in business (employees, leaders, customers) understands.

The problem with this is that the system no longer works like this. Rather than reevaluating, digging in, and saving the product -- as companies used to do when they were invested emotionally in their product and image -- it will be placed on the back burner and be allowed to dwindle away while a new project that supposedly incorporates all of the lessons learned is put out...and hopefully there are some improvements. However, that new product won't me LotR, we'll lose that. We'll get Harry Potter, or Hunger Games, or Twilight, or Justin Bieber the MMO!

We live in a disposable world. Use something, when it's worn throw it away and get the newest toy. Product longevity is becoming a thing of the past.

I really do not know which one I want. On one hand, I don't want another content drought like we had between Moria and Rise of Isengard. But I also am irritated by stuck taxi mounts, and birds chirping in Dolven View and lack of in game music, and my lore master vanishing.

I don't know.

Most people just want to explore middle earth they could care less about the bugs I for one like that they add an expantion every year because Turbine is on a contract that will expire in about ten years which should get all the areas out if they skipped a year they would most likely miss Mordor and get a new contract if they can since the player base seems to be going down thanks to SWTOR and D3 the story did seemed rushed in Isengard so maybe they should work on the story a bit also.

This is a forced answer question. No one wants quantity over quality. It's an absurdly pedantic question used as an excuse to rant and have others rant too.

Did you honestly think any significant number would choose quantity?

Let's cut to the chase.

You think the updates are not up to snuff. A lot of us agree with you.

No need to start a rigged poll to back your arguement...

Let me go against the crowd here. I'll pick quantity over quality. If we get 100 new quests and one of them is broken for 50% of people 25% of the time, that means we still have 99 perfectly working quests that people can do and enjoy whole Turbine figures out the problem with the last one. They will figure it eventually and fix it in a patch a few weeks/months ahead, but if they waited to release the other 99 quests because of that one? That is something I would not want. This of course applies not just to quests, but anything else as well.

I want both. If I have to choose just one though I would go with quality. As nice as it was that they re-vamped Fornost, for example, it lacks quality. There is not really any good loot to be had. Currency return is pretty low as well. This is an example of quantity. They re-vamped an older instance to give us more to do at level cap... yet it lacked the quality needed to run said instance over and over.

Originally Posted by hex2323

You think the updates are not up to snuff. A lot of us agree with you.

..

I sure agree with this. I don't think it's the devs fault though. I bet you dollars to donuts they want a good, finished prouduct just as badly as us but are under pressure from a time limit.

Years ago when I was cleaning carpets my boss would tell me to slow down while at the same time give me a time limit. The math would not allow his desired speed to fit in the time limit, the math just did not work.

I'm gonna word it a bit differently...

- There was the Turbine team which did The Shire, Evendim, Forochel... those were good, I want more from those guys.
- There's the Turbine team which committed stuff like some areas of Moria, the ugly linear design of the game since we entered Moria, some utterly bad paid for expansions like Isengard... I won't regret those if they are fired.
- There is the Turbine team which did the latest "Great River" area... well, dunno if it's the same team than the one I list in the previous point, but if it is, they redeemed themself. We are now back to LOTRO goodness, please do NOT change, and make us a Rohan expansion that is ALL just as good as the "Great River" area.

That's it

Originally Posted by Fortinobrand

There is content available, but a lot of players choose to not play it. People choose to rush through, skip as much as possible, and count only the latest end-game grind as "content."

I started playing when Mirkwood was released, and i got to lvl 65 around the time RoI got out. I did not choose to skip the content, i didn't have the option to run it. I would have loved to do all the lvl 50 and lower instances, but beside from GB and GA, nobody at lvl ran them. I did a few Moria instances, 99% of those GS, and almost always with lvls 65... because there wasnt enough people lower lvl to run them "normally". And then the same with lvl 65 ones, everyone was rushing to 75, so it was no go again.

Yes there is content, some with lots of quality, but unless it's doable at appropriate lvl, it just won't get done. So either Turbine needs to make everything scalable, or implement some sort of "sidekick" system where you can level-down to the appropriate lvl of instances. I'd much rather they do something like that to make old content available again than push some new lvl 76-85 content.

Add in another vote for quantity - But only in the sense that I want to 'complete' the game and get to Mordor before it shuts down. If we were to hit the outskirts, and then we get an announcement stating that the game will be closing, I will be moderately upset. There will be harsh language involved. And alcohol. And incoherent rants containing said harsh language - Whilst under the influence of alcohol. It will not be a pleasant time. We're talking soap-opera levels of over-the-top drama here...

Quality. Quality.

Originally Posted by Fortinobrand

The problem with this is that the system no longer works like this. Rather than reevaluating, digging in, and saving the product -- as companies used to do when they were invested emotionally in their product and image -- it will be placed on the back burner and be allowed to dwindle away while a new project that supposedly incorporates all of the lessons learned is put out...and hopefully there are some improvements. However, that new product won't me LotR, we'll lose that. We'll get Harry Potter, or Hunger Games, or Twilight, or Justin Bieber the MMO!

We live in a disposable world. Use something, when it's worn throw it away and get the newest toy. Product longevity is becoming a thing of the past.

Oh yeah!!! That's what i am waiting for, the Justin Bieber MMO. I have learned enough from 2 ex-wives and several ex-girlfriends that i will totally OWN in that game. I cant just cant wait to create a 16 year old blonde tart avatar and burn bieber down!!

If it is a ‘quality or quantity’ only thing for you, and you want quality; then don’t buy the expansions. Turbine will see the drop in sales and make an adjustment. Personally, I am going to buy the next expansion.

Originally Posted by ry5555

Most people just want to explore middle earth they could care less about the bugs I for one like that they add an expantion every year because Turbine is on a contract that will expire in about ten years which should get all the areas out if they skipped a year they would most likely miss Mordor and get a new contract if they can since the player base seems to be going down thanks to SWTOR and D3 the story did seemed rushed in Isengard so maybe they should work on the story a bit also.

Neither you nor anyone participating in this discussion knows the ins-and-outs of the licenses and contracts, so there is no point dragging them into the discussion. As for the player base declining due to the games you mentioned -- I disagree. I know a lot of people on three servers who left or took a break for them, and almost all of them are back. Yeah, some are gone. I also just coached 4 brand-new players through their first fellowship run at 22ish GB. They are hooked.

Originally Posted by Malachi108

Let me go against the crowd here. I'll pick quantity over quality. If we get 100 new quests and one of them is broken for 50% of people 25% of the time, that means we still have 99 perfectly working quests that people can do and enjoy whole Turbine figures out the problem with the last one. They will figure it eventually and fix it in a patch a few weeks/months ahead, but if they waited to release the other 99 quests because of that one? That is something I would not want. This of course applies not just to quests, but anything else as well.

Ok, fine, one quest bugging out in your scenario, but let me provide a couple different perspectives on that one quest --

1. It was the main selling point of an ad campaign and introduced new technology including the unasked for and unwanted lip-sync nonsense. As such, it's a stunning example of the lack of understanding of customer priorities, and a lack commitment to quality within the company. The fact that it's still bugged and still for sale with very little meaningful discussion with customers demonstrates some ethical concerns.

2. There is an item that is available in that run and nowhere else, the cloak. Worse, one of the main points of the big end-game run is to get an item to upgrade that cloak. Since I am sitting at ~35% bug-out rate (after and hour of getting group together and running) I can not justify spending my gaming time in that instance. I have been excluded from some T2 raids because I lack that cloak, they replace me with someone who has it, all part of the joy of pugs. IF they fix the run, we're on the verge of new raids, meaning it will be very difficult for me to get groups to get this item that will often be an expectation for the new raids. Is that fair? Is that now just one little bugged instance?

I agree with you -- they should not hold 99 quests to fix 1 broken one. They should have a proper release process that removes garbage and passes the solid stuff. Of course Draigoch had already been delayed multiple times, so I guess they decided it's good enough.

History on this forum has proven one thing...

Players want quality, however they won't accept quality when it affects quantity.

Time and time again Turbine has shown they were willing to keep things in development periods longer than originally planned but was lambasted by players complaining about how long it takes. They decried Turbine's statements about how often they wanted to release updates and told them that they are [insert expletives] for not releasing it when it was said, etc.

I, personally, want the happy balance between the two, and truthfully I've seen a fair decent attempt at doing so, far better than some of the other studios out there. That's just my opinion and not one that I even vaguely accept others have.

Originally Posted by DarkCntry

History on this forum has proven one thing...

Players want quality, however they won't accept quality when it affects quantity.

Time and time again Turbine has shown they were willing to keep things in development periods longer than originally planned but was lambasted by players complaining about how long it takes. They decried Turbine's statements about how often they wanted to release updates and told them that they are [insert expletives] for not releasing it when it was said, etc.
<snip>

We must not be playing the same game.

The biggest content drought in this game came when they took a year to slice the game up to sell it off in the Store and prep for F2P, not because they were trying to 'polish' some release they were working on..

Originally Posted by Malachi108

Let me go against the crowd here. I'll pick quantity over quality. If we get 100 new quests and one of them is broken for 50% of people 25% of the time, that means we still have 99 perfectly working quests that people can do and enjoy whole Turbine figures out the problem with the last one. They will figure it eventually and fix it in a patch a few weeks/months ahead, but if they waited to release the other 99 quests because of that one? That is something I would not want. This of course applies not just to quests, but anything else as well.

What if the general area of Rohan sucked? (just an example don't yell at me) if you had tons of quests there, but the area glitched and just generally looked and felt bad to you, would you still want it with the million quests there?

quantity does not guarantee that only one out of 100 quests will be bad...

Vote QUALITY!!!

i'd rather re-play quality content less often than have to deal with frequent, buggy content.

Since this is an MMO, I prefer quotity. Why is that not an option?