Thread: Calenard Setting of the Stalwart vs Great River Setting of Endings

Calenard Setting of the Stalwart
Tier 8
+25 Might
+568 Physical Mastery Rating

vs

Great River Setting of Endings
Great River
Minimum Level 75
+7.5% Devastate Magnitude
+584 Critical Rating

vs

True Setting of the Ages
Extraordinary
Minimum Level 65
+260 Critical Rating
+520 Physical Mastery Rating
+520 Tactical Mastery Rating
+111 in-Combat Power Regen


Which setting is better for a champion's Legendary weapon and rune?

I'd take crit over offence any day (as long as crit > 1,5*offence).
For a more exact answer I need to know how many crit and offence you have without any settings and wether you are dual-wielding or not so I can roughly estimate which setting will increase your damage by more.

i'd be curious how much you can quantify the +damage from dev. magnitude...
I don't doubt that +crit & +dev is going to output more damage than +pmast, assuming your pmast is already over 20k.

How come no one uses the True Setting of the Ages? 260 crit, 520 mastery, 111 ICPR. Pretty boss DPS setting IMO.

Originally Posted by Gylve

How come no one uses the True Setting of the Ages? 260 crit, 520 mastery, 111 ICPR. Pretty boss DPS setting IMO.

I added the True Setting of Ages into my original post for comparison.

Originally Posted by Thruili

I'd take crit over offence any day (as long as crit > 1,5*offence).
For a more exact answer I need to know how many crit and offence you have without any settings and wether you are dual-wielding or not so I can roughly estimate which setting will increase your damage by more.

I dual wield, but I do not know how much crit and phys offense I have without any settings slotted.

Originally Posted by DuneBug

i'd be curious how much you can quantify the +damage from dev. magnitude...
I don't doubt that +crit & +dev is going to output more damage than +pmast, assuming your pmast is already over 20k.

Looking at it differently, your dev magnitude ONLY comes into play when you get a successful dev hit, whereas the Phys Mastery is adding to EVERY attack that you do.

So is Phys Mastery better than hoping that you get a dev hit so that you get the +7.5% dev magnitude?

Originally Posted by Vysion34

Looking at it differently, your dev magnitude ONLY comes into play when you get a successful dev hit, whereas the Phys Mastery is adding to EVERY attack that you do.

So is Phys Mastery better than hoping that you get a dev hit so that you get the +7.5% dev magnitude?

you realize that relic has +crit on it too, right? If it were just the dev. magnitude it'd be a ###### rune.
+crit has all sorts of benefits because of champ's gigantic crit magnitude & extra pips from wild attack.

one more thing to consider is that you can get phys mastery and might elsewhere (anywhere), and the setting of endings is pretty much the only thing you can get +dev magnitude on.

besides... you have to admit those huge devs are pretty neat =D

Originally Posted by Vysion34

Looking at it differently, your dev magnitude ONLY comes into play when you get a successful dev hit, whereas the Phys Mastery is adding to EVERY attack that you do.

So is Phys Mastery better than hoping that you get a dev hit so that you get the +7.5% dev magnitude?

The thing is after a point Phys Mastery will have reduced impact...that is if your current MOff is +50% (Dmg=150%*base) then adding 1% more offense means a 151/150 .6% increase in overall damage output...at +100% damage (200%*base) adding 1% means a net increase of .5% output. In other words diminishing returns increases as your base PhysMastery increases.

Since I run around with about 10%+ dev chance most of the time, I use the dev mag settings. I assume it's more useful if you have more crit, but I would be really happy if someone did the math for me.

True, but crit has a cap and even more severe diminishing returns before you hit it.

I take the setting of Endings.

My phys mast is 27k, my crit is 9k. Not really worth me losing 500 crit and dev mag for another 1k phys mast and some power regen when I don't have power problems.

Setting of Endings for me too. You get so much might, and therefore PM, from armour and jewellery, that adding more on a relic instead of adding crit is not a great idea.

Originally Posted by Vysion34

I dual wield, but I do not know how much crit and phys offense I have without any settings slotted.

You just have to subtract your crit or offence that your settings give you from your current offence and crit. Or just give me your numbers and tell me which settings you are using and I do the math for you .

But crit will be very likely better as I and the others have already said .

Are there any number crunching on the relic from ettens? Could be interesting to see

Short form: Setting of the endings. True setting of the ages ONLY when you have severe power problems

Long form:
There are two issues with relics and stats (and which makes building a champion in particular not so easy as it may sound).

There are certain mathematical rules after which Turbine assigns stats to items. This is based on a hidden internal level of each item. I just love to quote this underappreciated thread for more indepth info: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...-Budgets-(RoI). The relics dont conform to this in many ways, and some are wonky, but especially with straight stats and ratings they usually do.

The first thing about the relics is: Everything in there is governed by a budget. The simple T1-T8 relics for example all have 5 units of stats on them. Take the aforementioned Calenard Setting of the Stalwart.
+25 Might
+568 Physical Mastery Rating
+568 Tactical Mastery Rating

Using the formulae in the link above, we can easily determine the hidden level: (25 might +10.5)x2 = 71 (item level). Counter sample towards the mastery: 71x4 = 284 physical mastery. x2 and we end at 568 mastery. In short, you have a relic that gives one unit of might, 2 units of phys.mastery and 2 units of tac.mastery. Which means, 2 of 5 units there are wasted completely on the champ because we cannot seriously use tactical mastery.

The same is of course true with the True Setting of the Ages. It has two big difference though: It seems to have a rather benign ICPR factor (as many relics), better than the formula that is currently used, so it might be a good alternative in case of dire power problems. Also, the "True" line of relics seems to have more stat-units allocated, somewhere between 5.5 and 6.5. It is hard to determine for a mathematical noob like me.

In any case, this leaves the setting of the endings as the only relic that does not waste a portion of its capability on useless stuff.

The SECOND issue is that straight physical mastery on any item is not efficient.
On LotrO items, physical mastery consumes the same budget as block/parry/evade or crit. But all of these stats are obviously harder to get than physical mastery. In LotrO calculation, you get 25might = 260 phys. mastery = 260 crit (or b/p/e)

With a (might) x10 -> physical mastery conversion, but only (agility/fate)x1.75
-> crit rating conversion, it is obvious that phys.mastery can be found in abundance on items (because many things have might) while crit rating has to be taken wherever it presents itself. Considering that we have the marvellous +50% critical damage legacy, the huge bunch of crit rating from the setting of the endings is interesting even WITHOUT the dev.Magnitude modifier.

Originally Posted by Vandervahn

Short form: Setting of the endings. True setting of the ages ONLY when you have severe power problems

Long form:
There are two issues with relics and stats (and which makes building a champion in particular not so easy as it may sound).

There are certain mathematical rules after which Turbine assigns stats to items. This is based on a hidden internal level of each item. I just love to quote this underappreciated thread for more indepth info: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...-Budgets-(RoI). The relics dont conform to this in many ways, and some are wonky, but especially with straight stats and ratings they usually do.

The first thing about the relics is: Everything in there is governed by a budget. The simple T1-T8 relics for example all have 5 units of stats on them. Take the aforementioned Calenard Setting of the Stalwart.
+25 Might
+568 Physical Mastery Rating
+568 Tactical Mastery Rating

Using the formulae in the link above, we can easily determine the hidden level: (25 might +10.5)x2 = 71 (item level). Counter sample towards the mastery: 71x4 = 284 physical mastery. x2 and we end at 568 mastery. In short, you have a relic that gives one unit of might, 2 units of phys.mastery and 2 units of tac.mastery. Which means, 2 of 5 units there are wasted completely on the champ because we cannot seriously use tactical mastery.

The same is of course true with the True Setting of the Ages. It has two big difference though: It seems to have a rather benign ICPR factor (as many relics), better than the formula that is currently used, so it might be a good alternative in case of dire power problems. Also, the "True" line of relics seems to have more stat-units allocated, somewhere between 5.5 and 6.5. It is hard to determine for a mathematical noob like me.

In any case, this leaves the setting of the endings as the only relic that does not waste a portion of its capability on useless stuff.

The SECOND issue is that straight physical mastery on any item is not efficient.
On LotrO items, physical mastery consumes the same budget as block/parry/evade or crit. But all of these stats are obviously harder to get than physical mastery. In LotrO calculation, you get 25might = 260 phys. mastery = 260 crit (or b/p/e)

With a (might) x10 -> physical mastery conversion, but only (agility/fate)x1.75
-> crit rating conversion, it is obvious that phys.mastery can be found in abundance on items (because many things have might) while crit rating has to be taken wherever it presents itself. Considering that we have the marvellous +50% critical damage legacy, the huge bunch of crit rating from the setting of the endings is interesting even WITHOUT the dev.Magnitude modifier.

Very interesting, I went for the Ending settings intuitively using basically the same principle you have illustrated. Good to see there's some science behind it. It seems for champs the only way to get more dps is higher crit, specially 2H champs because compared to hunters/burgs we get only 1 benefit(phys mastery) from our main stat Might where as they get both crit and phys mastery from their main stat Agi. With the crazy crit multipliers champs have crit is a no-brainer when you want moaar dps.

+rep

Originally Posted by Shintagh

... because compared to hunters/burgs we get only 1 benefit(phys mastery) from our main stat Might where as they get both crit and phys mastery from their main stat Agi. With the crazy crit multipliers champs have crit is a no-brainer when you want moaar dps. ...

Whats worse, it is inevitable for champions to stack agility despite being unable to b/p/e because of the stupid miss chance. Hunters, burgs and to some extent tactical classes can completely ignore anything than their main stat+ vitality.

On the other hand, perma-flurry and fervour +damage keeps it all in perspective; else Champions would have no chance in DPS against Hunters, Burgs and RKs since we have to invest 500-ish points into agility with little tangible benefit. The downside to this is that it reduces the practical value of Ardour.

Originally Posted by Vandervahn

The downside to this is that it reduces the practical value of Ardour.

[irony]There's a stance called ardor?![\irony]

Originally Posted by Vandervahn

The downside to this is that it reduces the practical value of Ardour.

ahr-door? what is this arh-dur you speak of?

Originally Posted by SoAndSo

ahr-door? what is this arh-dur you speak of?

I think he must have spelt 'Fervour' wrong. I can't see any other reasonable explanation...

Originally Posted by Dorothir

I think he must have spelt 'Fervour' wrong. I can't see any other reasonable explanation...

im still baffled, and its almost 24 hours later.

Umm... I.... *sweat*

Ah yeah. I was of course speaking of the Emerald gem of Ardour. +Vit and +crit, but since we need the AGI, we need the other gem with +agi and +crit. What else could I have spoken of?

Originally Posted by Vandervahn

Umm... I.... *sweat*

Ah yeah. I was of course speaking of the Emerald gem of Ardour. +Vit and +crit, but since we need the AGI, we need the other gem with +agi and +crit. What else could I have spoken of?

Nice save, hehe