Thread: LM returning to the Moors...

Hi, my name is Ketzal, Im a LM on Brandywine.

I've been playing the LM since June 2007, first time I got in the Moors is around December 2007 at level 47. I've been playing on and off since then. I used to rock in the moors at that time, of course, we had a lot of moral, cc actually worked, creeps were not very developed, etc... In the overall, I see many improvement and balance for pvping, i am very glad for guardians that now are really tank.

Now I made a come back a month ago, last time I was active was last year around july. And I just love to go to the Moors, but hell, I am sooo weak, ahaha. Now, my gear aren't bad, I almost have all the pvp set, my stats are pretty good compared to other LM, I am being very active since my come back, been upgrading all my gears, etc... But I have very hard time in the moors now. Here are the most drastic changes I noticed.

1. CC dont work much effectively anymore, creeps have so much means to counter it all of the time. That hurt the LM pretty strongly since cc is one of his big asset and he has no armor, no block, no parry, etc... He has no defense and his heal arent enough.

2. The LM goes down very quickly, sometimes I dont even have the time to hit my heal! This is by far the most noticeable change, man we are fragile.

3. Induction time becomes very hard, in fact i nearly dont use induction skills anymore. and this too hurt us pretty badly since our most efficient and dps skills are bound with induction. I find it more effective to use skills without induction, with a few exception of course (against blackarrow for example). I use the tome that prevent induction interruption all of the time to launch ent go to war and this seems a good solution, but creeps dont stay stun 6sec. ops... So, here again, our biggest asset is pretty much broken.

4. Running isn't an option anymore. When I know I can not win a fight, I dont turn and flee anymore, why? Because it's a total lack of time. It is actually better to keep fighting. Before turning you have to cc the creeps, wont work because they have so many means to counter it, once you are fleeing you are slow as hell, because creeps have ability to slow you down or get faster then you, and once you flee, two hits after you are gone to the rezzing ring... So fleeing is for guards, champs, or hunter with their mapping skills, but LM have to be eaten, I can not say I dislike it though, ahaha.

5. On the good side, Burning ember stacks 3 times, so when creeps run off me, i think we are the best class to slow, daze, root, etc... and kill it with DoTs.

Of course, before writting this liltle review, I took the time to fix the more obvious lack I had, with gearing, traits, etc... Also, I have been pvping since a month in the Moors, on both side with my R6 wrags (by the way, its crazy how you level faster now in the moors with quest giving infamy, but I am stock with 20K destiny points!)

In the overall, LM went from one of the best pvp class to the worse, ouch, its a hard coming back. But it's ok, i like the LM so much I can bear with it, group and stay behind, ahaha. Just my observation since it is so obvious after a coming back. Thank you.

Ketzal on BW

Originally Posted by Loregaba

In the overall, LM went from one of the best pvp class to the worse, ouch, its a hard coming back. But it's ok, i like the LM so much I can bear with it, group and stay behind, ahaha. Just my observation since it is so obvious after a coming back. Thank you.

Read the previous posts about the exact same topic instead of making new ones all of the time.. This statement has already been proved wrong several times - i even put a video out for the whining to stop.. LMs are insanely strong in the moors and on my server, Snowbourn, one of the most feared classes to face (if not the most feared) 1v1, 2v1, even up to 5v1 LMs can win - i've got screenshots to back this up. I suggest you read some of the previous posts and practice a bit on your LM in PvP before you call it one of the worst classes again

I am certainly not complaining about my LM in the moors. The skills are a blast and to watch a warg pack run away after lobbing a sticky gourd at them is just pure joy. However, I would appreciate some advice from you more experienced guys on how you handle the individual classes out there. I am creep ignorant. And for build, more of a crit build, morale build, tac mast? I have seen LMs out there who seem to have incredible survivability, and I definitely have not raised my game to that level yet. Thanks for any advice!

Wargs run away? Not in my experience. The one or two it actually affects just lead the others to you. Herb Lore, no useful effect. Storm Lore? Nada, and another group of wargs gobbles an easy target.

There are, it is alleged, those who find this easy and fun but so far that have not shared their secrets.

Originally Posted by Joedamezzer

Read the previous posts about the exact same topic instead of making new ones all of the time.. Certainly not, if the issue isn't corrected then new threads are welcome. Its the LM forum here, not the wargs. This statement has already been proved wrong several times - i even put a video out for the whining to stop.. It's your point of view and opinion, it doesn't mean you are right, I play a LM since 2007. LMs are insanely strong in the moors and on my server, Snowbourn, one of the most feared classes to face (if not the most feared) 1v1, 2v1, even up to 5v1 LMs can win - i've got screenshots to back this up. Well, that is a very funny statement, ahah, LM are the easiest class to take down, stats shows it all. I suggest you read some of the previous posts and practice a bit on your LM in PvP before you call it one of the worst classes again And i suggest you go trolling on you warg forum, you are not helping a broken class here, you dont even play it.

You got your answers, no let us talk between LM.

After a week of playing with my R6 warg, I have made these conclusion about the LM.

The LM is by far the most fragile class. It seems that all other classes are better then the LM to survive in the moors. All classes taken in, regardless of ranks, it was much easier to get a LM down compared to the others. Only the Hunter seems to be easy too, but still a little bit more harder compared to the LM.

The Rune-Keeper and Minstrels were able to heal and cast while running. Guardians, Captains, Wardens, Champions and Burglars all have a way much better survivability, and by very far.

It seems the LM only advantage over the other classes are shown in group, with his AoE, DoT and Debuff. But it serves well almost only in pve raids, not against other players.

It seems clearer to me that the LM as some issue in pvmp and the two more obvious points are: survivability and induction.

Now to the little trolls outhere, a few words for you: I am not an expert and I dont pretend so. Nevertheless, I have the right to express my opinion. If you disagree with my own observations, you are welcome to express them by choosing your words wisely and dont be condescendant or arrogant, show me you are in control and have some manners.

All is well...

Ketzal on Brandywine

Let's look at that Loregaba, shall we?

1: Certainly not, if the issue isn't corrected then new threads are welcome. Its the LM forum here, not the wargs.

Correct, except there is no issue (imo). Warg forum, come again?

2: It's your point of view and opinion, it doesn't mean you are right, I play a LM since 2007.

So did i, it's all about opinions.

3: Well, that is a very funny statement, ahah, LM are the easiest class to take down, stats shows it all.

That's not very objective..

4: And i suggest you go trolling on you warg forum, you are not helping a broken class here, you dont even play it.

Right.. I don't even play it.. The class is not broken. I am not trolling, i am expressing my opinion.

Originally Posted by Loregaba

You got your answers, no let us talk between LM.

come again?

Originally Posted by Loregaba

After a week of playing with my R6 warg, I have made these conclusion about the LM.

The LM is by far the most fragile class. It seems that all other classes are better then the LM to survive in the moors. All classes taken in, regardless of ranks, it was much easier to get a LM down compared to the others. Only the Hunter seems to be easy too, but still a little bit more harder compared to the LM.

The Rune-Keeper and Minstrels were able to heal and cast while running. Guardians, Captains, Wardens, Champions and Burglars all have a way much better survivability, and by very far.

It seems the LM only advantage over the other classes are shown in group, with his AoE, DoT and Debuff. But it serves well almost only in pve raids, not against other players.

It seems clearer to me that the LM as some issue in pvmp and the two more obvious points are: survivability and induction.

Now to the little trolls outhere, a few words for you: I am not an expert and I dont pretend so. Nevertheless, I have the right to express my opinion. If you disagree with my own observations, you are welcome to express them by choosing your words wisely and dont be condescendant or arrogant, show me you are in control and have some manners.

All is well...

Ketzal on Brandywine

I am a very experienced LM in the game. I have played both End-game PVE Raids, and a few PvMP raids as well. I have also participated in numerous lotro betas, and became something of an alt-aholic at one point.

Overall I have to say that I agree with Loregaba/Ketzal's statement that recently LM's have become significantly more fragile in the game. I think that this goes for both PvE and PvMP. However, I think the issue itself traces back to the Rise of Isengard stat reallocation.

I was a very hard-core player of LOTRO up until the release of Star Wars The Old Republic (yes i'm a tolkien and star wars guy, lol deal with it). When the Isengard update came out, I logged in and almost immediately noticed a difference in how I had to do things with my LM in game.

The biggest thing I noticed was that I was nearly getting my ### handed to me in a one-on-one fight with random mobs in the area. Now, just for the record....I play an Elf LM, he has a combination of Lothlorien and Mirkwood Raid gear at this point in time (so he was outfitted better than the average player).

So my first thought was to change my traits. Solo, I normally run the Master of Natures Fury (Fire) trait-line with Improved Sticky Gourd, Sword and Staff, and Eagle Friend as my legendary traits, and I always had my Eagle out as my active pet.

However post-isengard update, it seemed as if the game was flipped over 100%. Once I changed my trait-line from the Fire to the Keeper of Animals (with the Bog Lurker pet) set, it seemed that I was no longer struggling so much. Now mind you, Keeper of Animals got SOME improvements with the Isengard expansion, but nothing major that I personally think would change that line from the Pets/Buffs line to the DPS line (Also I never use Ancient Master unless I'm raiding, because I prefer to fight up close and personal).

I think the reason we're seeing such a disparity between Survivability, Damage Output, and overall LM-ness (yes i made the word up lol) that we're used to seeing, is because not only stats but playstyles have been completely thrown into the air since things were changed around.

Additionally, yes I will certainly agree with you on the fact that one of the biggest weaknesses of the LM class is our Inductions and our lack of significant armor. The way I would usually go about combat on my LM is: I start off with Burning Embers, Light of the Rising Dawn, Cracked Earth, Gust of Wind, and then by this time the enemy mob has gotten into Melee range of me so I use staff-strike, and staff-sweep, and then use Sign of Battle: Wizards Fire. All this time, my Eagle is pecking my enemy to death as well (vivid image i know lol). This was all prior to Isengard. At some point I'd also use improved sticky gourd and then repeat the cycle.

Of course I'd also make some time for Storm Lore and Fire Lore (Fire Lore actually is my first go-to debuff skill lol)

However post-isengard......things seemed less clear to me. My skill rotation is very good, so its not a question of that. Virtues had to be changed to allocate for more Will and Fate, as opposed to mostly being for Vitality. My gear, well it probably wasn't the best after the update changed all the stats around, but it wasn't the worst either (having SOMETHING always is better than having NOTHING). My skill traits weren't the problem either, since those had been left alone after the update.

So, I think that really what we need here is for Turbine to essentially go back to the drawing board with the Lore-Master class. So take out everything there is so far for the LM class and go back to a skeleton of the class: we are a CC class, we work with pets, debuffs, skills dealing with nature, Fair DPS, and wear Light Armor.

The thing that got unintentionally nerfed i believe is our dps. I suppose one could also chalk this all up to trouble adjusting playstyle. So, essentially those of us who have played for years prior to the Isengard expansion had easily figured out the 3 important stats for LM's: Vitality, Will, and Fate (in that order); Vitality gave us more Health, Will and Fate powered our skills.

Once Isengard was out: they scratched Vitality off the board for LM's, making it just Will and Fate for EVERYTHING.


I think i've strayed away from what i was trying to say, and have just started rambling now..........

I know where you are coming from. I jibbed at taking much of the ToO armour because it knackered my morale and ended up with 3 Draigoch and 3 ToO as a compromise. I used to try and balance Will, Vit and Fate but tht's becoming very hard with this push for minimaxing and the nearer you get to end game the more pronounced the effects will be. At this rate by the end og Rohan we will have about 5k Will and maybe no real improvememnt in morale:-)

Mentioning experienced LM's,

Coming from Imladris and Lanroval I talked to and followed 3 of those in this matter, because I had severe difficulties as well first. Result: What Joedamezzer says seems rubbish (and would hence his manners towards Loregabe not really surprise me!).

Neither Elthi (Imladris)
Anun (Landroval)
or Fell (Landroval as well)

sign Joedamezzers statements, and all of them are 3rd Marshalls or Commanders (which I far more respect than this joedatroll).
Elthi told me despite the rang dying for too much still and is found therefore mostly teamed up with a Mini, and Anun told me just yesterday again to go more grouped, as I am as LM are too easy fishfood (and so did every LM i met so far in the game).

Fazit: I don't like or sympathize with those "THIS OR THIS CLASS isn't useful anymore" thread-whinings.
When it comes to the Ettenmoors though, Loregabe seems to have a good point.

Of course its getting a easier, when you with some experience figured out a way around those disadvantages.
Thats the wrong way to look at it though. Instead of finding away around, those disadvantages need to be solved by Turbine.

All honour and respect to those few exceptional LM's who adapted to the situation and play strong (Fell is surly one).
But then again, they seem simply: Exceptions.

And to be honest- I don't think we telling Turbine something new here. They know it- the entire Etten-thing needs a look on.

And concerning this Joedatroll: I don't think he wants or even cares for other players opinions, he simply "knows it all best".

Originally Posted by ElenEstel

Mentioning experienced LM's,

Coming from Imladris and Lanroval I talked to and followed 3 of those in this matter, because I had severe difficulties as well first. Result: What Joedamezzer says seems rubbish (and would hence his manners towards Loregabe not really surprise me!).

Neither Elthi (Imladris)
Anun (Landroval)
or Fell (Landroval as well)

sign Joedamezzers statements, and all of them are 3rd Marshalls or Commanders (which I far more respect than this joedatroll).
Elthi told me despite the rang dying for too much still and is found therefore mostly teamed up with a Mini, and Anun told me just yesterday again to go more grouped, as I am as LM are too easy fishfood (and so did every LM i met so far in the game).

Fazit: I don't like or sympathize with those "THIS OR THIS CLASS isn't useful anymore" thread-whinings.
When it comes to the Ettenmoors though, Loregabe seems to have a good point.

Of course its getting a easier, when you with some experience figured out a way around those disadvantages.
Thats the wrong way to look at it though. Instead of finding away around, those disadvantages need to be solved by Turbine.

All honour and respect to those few exceptional LM's who adapted to the situation and play strong (Fell is surly one).
But then again, they seem simply: Exceptions.

And to be honest- I don't think we telling Turbine something new here. They know it- the entire Etten-thing needs a look on.

And concerning this Joedatroll: I don't think he wants or even cares for other players opinions, he simply "knows it all best".

Honestly, i really wasn' trying to troll. I was trying to get the same point across as always - LM is not a broken class. Now, i can't tell how people look at LMs on other servers, and i am sorry if i offended you here. But, on SB it is considered one of the most dangerous classes alive, both solo and in groups. I do care about other player's opinions, and i am sorry if i seemed arrogant. I guess the fact that this topic has been discussed over and over again in other topics got on my nerves, and i'm sorry for that. However, when all this is set and done, i did put out a video around 7 months back of how to fight as a LM only to prove a point of the LM forums when people had the exact same issues in the moors as now. Since then audacity has been added to the moors, along with a bunch of other things, which hasn't (in my opinion) damaged the LM, but improved it. I am not trying to throw mud. Let's just say that based through my 12 ranks of experience as a LM in the moors, i don't find the class broken in any way.

Calling someone a troll because he has a different opinion? I remember a similar post before audacity about how bad LMs were. Audacity changed everything for sure, but freep gear has improved drastically (1st ages, crystals, pvp set, ToO and LG jewellery...) while creeps remain the same (except wargs and spiders).

If you see the OP gear you see he has no claim to talk about LM viability in the moors. If you want to faceroll on quest gear roll a mini.

Originally Posted by Joedamezzer

Read the previous posts about the exact same topic instead of making new ones all of the time.. This statement has already been proved wrong several times - i even put a video out for the whining to stop.. LMs are insanely strong in the moors and on my server, Snowbourn, one of the most feared classes to face (if not the most feared) 1v1, 2v1, even up to 5v1 LMs can win - i've got screenshots to back this up. I suggest you read some of the previous posts and practice a bit on your LM in PvP before you call it one of the worst classes again

Link to video? ...hopefully it shows the ranks of the 5v1s you are speaking about. Post your video bud...you forgot the link.

Originally Posted by FerPac

Link to video? ...hopefully it shows the ranks of the 5v1s you are speaking about. Post your video bud...you forgot the link.

Video was made to prove that higher ranked wargs/reavers could be beaten 1v1 without kiting - aka in melee. That was the issue back then. Now, i never said i filmed these 5v1 fights, but i did say i have screenshots(as it is hard to predict these fights coming).

Remember, this video is 7 months old so several things has changed since then:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMh2TE9YXgU

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2ce1yso&s=6
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=wk6c1x&s=6

Originally Posted by Joedamezzer

LM is not a broken class..... ....the fact that this topic has been discussed over and over again in other topics got on my nerves.... .... i did put out a video around 7 months back of how to fight as a LM only to prove a point of the LM forums when people had the exact same issues

NOW you sound sincere and quite sympathic again ;-)

I do understand you, as mentioned I don't sympathize either with these "this week, the LM is broken! [and next week its the warden again]" threads- yes one get tire of those! Especially as it is definitely not true.....
And the heat in this headline only shows: We all love our LM's, and that's a good thing to know *smile*

You're surly good at your class in the Moors, and so are a few others.
Though as you mention yourself, too many(!) have issues out there, again and again. And that's not a good certificate to Turbine. Which should not be downtalked as: "Go and learn your class". But thank shall you have for your efforts with the video, I think I actually watched this (in my desperation ;-).

Perhaps there is a difference in servers as you say. Cause i don't know any LM who dares going solo. Especially on Imladris where we got a Warg-population-explosion, not to mention this wonderful Warg-Duo - and everyone from Imladris irrespective rank knows what names I talk about, *Laugh*

Originally Posted by Feomalo

If you want to faceroll on quest gear roll a mini.

Some truth in these words as well... but I don't envy Mini's their benefits, they been nerfed already.
And yes, we got some nice Armours, i am not ungrateful (going 3yellow+3blue) but its far not making up for the audacity-hit.

The fix however would not be problematic: We talk about inductions. We already have a trait, just make it reduce more.

As this is nothing new, I really do hope we see something like this in a coming update soon.

Happy Hunting Folks

/Ljus

Originally Posted by Joedamezzer

Video was made to prove that higher ranked wargs/reavers could be beaten 1v1 without kiting - aka in melee. That was the issue back then. Now, i never said i filmed these 5v1 fights, but i did say i have screenshots(as it is hard to predict these fights coming).

Remember, this video is 7 months old so several things has changed since then:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMh2TE9YXgU

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2ce1yso&s=6
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=wk6c1x&s=6

+rep for this post, it's easy to see that you really put some effort into this video - which could also be inspirational to other LMs. Nice video, nice screenshots.

Saw the video...not one of those high ranked players knew how to find their interrupts for ents and lightning? Does call of the valar now immune to interrupts? I thought it made you immune to dmg setbacks...but not interrupts. Is this new or did these creeps not know how to find their interrupt buttons?

Saw your pictures...I tend to be a skeptic. Not calling you a liar...but what you have shown there I can easily duplicate in situations when fighting low ranks and/or running solo and gold-tagging and the AoE just happens to catch them all bunched up while they are eating someone else. Yeah you got the KBs...but unfortunately it doesnt prove much.

Thank you for the replies. I got some good tips here and there.

Now, be conscious this thread was my personal feedback after being away and coming back to the game, which gave me some pretty good perspective over the change. If some are offended to see "another" thread about a broken class, problem isnt mine. Just ignore the thread.

About pvp gear, I got 4 pieces and working on getting all the sets, but still, it doesnt fix the problem I see in our class in pvmp. My audacity is at 5 curently and the rest of my gear is good, not different from what I used to wear before. Still, the difference in pvmp is a large from what it used to be.

One of the poster was mentionning the impact Rise of Isen created with the audacity system and I really think he is right. Given CC being one of our major asset, a high audacity cut the time of CC in half, adding to this all the trinkets you can buy with commendation to give you cc immunity gives the LM anti-stun traits a pale standing.

I have talked to high ranking LM on my server and they had also their opinion on the matter, aggreeing the gameplay has changed a lot and decreased survivability to the LM. Giving no other options, but to grind for the best gear around with the red traits line. Much improved in this game, including pve npc, but we still have the same old pet system since game launch, there is certainly something there to improve.

Again, I am not whining, nor complaining, take out the emotion from my analysis if it hurts you. It is just my personal feedback and it seems right up to now. Survivability is the weakest from all classes, best skills bound to induction are nearly impossible to use when targeted (at least we have this lil tome).

All is well,

Ketzal

Originally Posted by Joedamezzer

Video was made to prove that higher ranked wargs/reavers could be beaten 1v1 without kiting - aka in melee. That was the issue back then. Now, i never said i filmed these 5v1 fights, but i did say i have screenshots(as it is hard to predict these fights coming).

Remember, this video is 7 months old so several things has changed since then:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMh2TE9YXgU

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2ce1yso&s=6
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=wk6c1x&s=6

really ... are you joke !??!

You can't compare a warg of 7 mouths ago with a warg atm ...
And really ... most of spar in thin video are versus the best low creep class of the moment ... reaver
Like BA, have a lot of problem versus a LM ...
Try to find a good warg and show the movie :P
Lore master is a good class. the other are too much OP atm ... mini RK champion ...
The only other class with induction atm are the hunter but medium armor and really more damage ...
HUnter at max range can kill a lot of creep before become hit !
But lore master can win 1vs1 with crrep no more hight than rank 9 else damage become too much low.
After rank 5 a lore master can't kill a defiler with enought audacity or a WL ...
other class with a bit of lucky ( on crit on flank etc ) you can win but 2 warg can become enought for kill a lore master alone!
I think that it's ok ! Still think are other class too much OP and survive versus 3 or more creep !!!

Anyway the best think for a lore master atm are audacity 7 and devastate crit for give the best burst of damage. CD aren't an option and you need every consumable for help you to avoid interruption/pushback

Originally Posted by FerPac

Saw the video...not one of those high ranked players knew how to find their interrupts for ents and lightning? Does call of the valar now immune to interrupts? I thought it made you immune to dmg setbacks...but not interrupts. Is this new or did these creeps not know how to find their interrupt buttons?

You can use scroll for avoid interruption, call of valar can be interrupet and is bugged cause some time you can take ( i think from warg not shure shadow stance docet) setback ... but ...
You can be feared or poisoned and if your skill become grey ... well ... you will lost you Call and ent/light will fail
It's not so easy but a lot of class can do that ! Anyway are CD of 5 min and after you used ... next creep will kill you

Originally Posted by Guiwinner

really ... are you joke !??!

You can't compare a warg of 7 mouths ago with a warg atm ...
And really ... most of spar in thin video are versus the best low creep class of the moment ... reaver
Like BA, have a lot of problem versus a LM ...
Try to find a good warg and show the movie :P
Lore master is a good class. the other are too much OP atm ... mini RK champion ...
The only other class with induction atm are the hunter but medium armor and really more damage ...
HUnter at max range can kill a lot of creep before become hit !
But lore master can win 1vs1 with crrep no more hight than rank 9 else damage become too much low.
After rank 5 a lore master can't kill a defiler with enought audacity or a WL ...
other class with a bit of lucky ( on crit on flank etc ) you can win but 2 warg can become enought for kill a lore master alone!
I think that it's ok ! Still think are other class too much OP and survive versus 3 or more creep !!!

hmmm, where to start.

first of all, you ask why i fought vs "weaker classes" as reavers.. Now, as i mentioned already, that was the sisue back then. I was challenged to prove that higher ranked wargs and reavers could be beaten 1on1 in melee fight - no BAs were mentioned. And tbh back then, and still, BAs are NOT a great challenge for LMs compared to other classes, so i don't get your point

Second of all, yes, wargs might be less squishy now, but so am i. I still don't struggle with wargs, and win about 50/50 vs higher ranked ones if i don't use wotc - in flayer stance they are tougher though. Try to find a good warg and show the movie? Oh well, well.. I'm feeling the urge to make a new warg/BA video just for you

And yes, good defilers and WLs are tougher than they used to, but with proper DPS (you should go for a bit extra DPS in your setup vs these classes, 26k-ish) you should be alright. Also, vs defilers, trait improved powerdrain. As you start the 1v1, start draining "it". "It" will probably fear you right away. Then, when the fear is over, used CttV, and start draining the defiler again. This is a great way to empty his powerpool from the very beginning, and i hope some of you can actually use this advice.

Now, there has been a lot of talk about audacity. Yes, you ARE squishy without r7 audacity, and yes, you ARE not as tough as a good creep. I will admit that. But you may find yourself just fine with r7 audacity, so if people here are struggling in the moors and blame it on the class, it's cool, but i highly recommend you get full audacity first.

Again, my personal views and opinions.

Originally Posted by Guiwinner

But lore master can win 1vs1 with crrep no more hight than rank 9 else damage become too much low.
After rank 5 a lore master can't kill a defiler with enought audacity or a WL ...

and this is just.. wrong

Thanks Joe - always good to get a perspective from a high audacity player. Any thoughts on which audacity gear set to go for?

Originally Posted by Dishcloth11115

......Any thoughts on which audacity gear set to go for?

This choice is so individual, I would not dare to give suggestions what's best for everyone.
Though in case you deem it helpful, here my own experience.
At first you should now, that I see my Lore-Master primary as a CC - and support unit, and always played her that way.

So I went for the yellow-set myself to compensate a bit for the severe Hit on our CC skills (due audacity)
with gain of the 5 sec enlarged mezz, and the silence with 5 pieces.
If you ask me for the result- it makes little difference only. I personally do not recommend it.

So I tried another support-combo: 3 yellow and 3 blue
You still get the 5 extra mezz-seconds, for getting off a skill, or keeping up with an escaping opponent.
And your B.of Hope gets a Heal over Time added, which can be your friends life-saver.
Though if you ask me again for the result: ... in practice its little difference to me as well. you could do with out these bonus.

So now I go headshaking down the bitter road with a sting in my heart, and go for the red set..... (have 2 pieces now).
Yes, we can deal some damage too, though when it comes to DPS there are stronger classes than ours.
And I feel somewhat reduced in that roll. (Like asking- or forcing(!) any other class to give up their primary skills).

but thats my 2 cents only, yours may differ a lot...

Cheers / Ljus

well player of creep or who play a creep .. what is the first target ?

I think for sure can be hunter or lore master and with low hp RK ...
Versus a defiler istant daze and eagle can help too ... but drain ... i don' tthink can be enought versus defiler pet !!!

I pretty much have the same observation has you have here.

Originally Posted by Guiwinner

...The only other class with induction atm are the hunter but medium armor and really more damage... Yes, thats a good point, you can add to this that he has high agility too, in comparison, Will for the LM only boost up resistance. Of course the devs will answer that the LM has more cc, dots and aoe to balance it all, but we know it isn't useful in pvmp when the LM is targeted, grouped or not. Hunter at max range can kill a lot of creep before become hit! The Hunter surely has more burst damage, and the LM more sustain dps, again good in raid pve, but not so much compared to burst dps in pvmp.
But lore master can win 1vs1 with creep no more high than rank 9 else damage become too much low.
After rank 5 a lore master can't kill a defiler with enough audacity or a WL... Exactly the same perspective here and I can let you know that some high rank LM are saying the same, they can do so-so well against them, only because of their 100hours of grinding.

If a class needs to be full of the best gear in pvmp, implying crazy hours of grinding, just to keep up with other classes in pvmp, there is something wrong with the game mechanic. Actually, the pets, so untouched since launch, could be improved to counter it all. Like a bear that act as a Guardian in pvmp as in pve. Just to throw an example. The actual LM isn't a bad broken class, it can be very good in pve, raid, but in pvmp, its skills and survivability are pale in comparison to other classes, his lack and weakness (induction, poor gear and avoidance, block, parry) too high.

All is well...

Ketzal

Originally Posted by Guiwinner

really ... are you joke !??!

You can't compare a warg of 7 mouths ago with a warg atm ...
And really ... most of spar in thin video are versus the best low creep class of the moment ... reaver
Like BA, have a lot of problem versus a LM ...
Try to find a good warg and show the movie :P
Lore master is a good class. the other are too much OP atm ... mini RK champion ...
The only other class with induction atm are the hunter but medium armor and really more damage ...
HUnter at max range can kill a lot of creep before become hit !
But lore master can win 1vs1 with crrep no more hight than rank 9 else damage become too much low.
After rank 5 a lore master can't kill a defiler with enought audacity or a WL ...
other class with a bit of lucky ( on crit on flank etc ) you can win but 2 warg can become enought for kill a lore master alone!
I think that it's ok ! Still think are other class too much OP and survive versus 3 or more creep !!!

Anyway the best think for a lore master atm are audacity 7 and devastate crit for give the best burst of damage. CD aren't an option and you need every consumable for help you to avoid interruption/pushback


You can use scroll for avoid interruption, call of valar can be interrupet and is bugged cause some time you can take ( i think from warg not shure shadow stance docet) setback ... but ...
You can be feared or poisoned and if your skill become grey ... well ... you will lost you Call and ent/light will fail
It's not so easy but a lot of class can do that ! Anyway are CD of 5 min and after you used ... next creep will kill you

This post make me laugh.

All i can say about this is if you can't kill anything 1v1 with your LM and think you die easier than every other classes then you are a bad LM.
I can tell from my own experience both on playing a lm and fighting against good ones on my warg that well played lms ARE one of the strongest freep classes.

I have a rank 9 warg and a rank 10 lm. I have fought 2 good lms on my server after warg update and won most of the fights, lost some, but all of them were hard fights. As a warg i find rks and hunters much easier to kill than lms.

Originally Posted by Unrecorded

All i can say about this is if you can't kill anything 1v1 with your LM and think you die easier than every other classes then you are a bad LM.
I can tell from my own experience both on playing a lm and fighting against good ones on my warg that well played lms ARE one of the strongest freep classes.

I have a rank 9 warg and a rank 10 lm. I have fought 2 good lms on my server after warg update and won most of the fights, lost some, but all of them were hard fights. As a warg i find rks and hunters much easier to kill than lms.

finally!! thank you!

Originally Posted by Guiwinner

well player of creep or who play a creep .. what is the first target ?

I think for sure can be hunter or lore master !

Thaaaank you Guiwinner!
So its not only a "public secret" on our servers then.


/Ljus

Originally Posted by Joedamezzer

finally!! thank you!

But i don't wanna mean i can't kill a rank 9 warg.
But if he go in flyer can be a really hard point, don't forget the fail % of turbine ... the god with the sicret simbol of % give to all a random simbol of % for devasting hit :P

In my combat log i can see devastate every 4 hit on me !!!!
Anyway ... swipe, ancient craft scroll+ ent and stiky or valar+ chain with 2 devastate you have done a lot of damage in few sec ... fbut if you give a normal hit ent will hit for 1,6k ...
Some ministrell can do a devastate of 5k with a coda ... ISTANT !!!

Anyway you can kill a higth rank but you never win for sure ... !

The fail point of the PVP are the other class ...

Healer do dps ... dpser have self heal ( creep group heal ) well ...
I like the lore master style and i really think lore master need some change on pet and on animation for some reason ( like root need to be stopped or daze, burg can daze in moviment )

Originally Posted by Guiwinner

But lore master can win 1vs1 with crrep no more hight than rank 9 else damage become too much low.
After rank 5 a lore master can't kill a defiler with enought audacity or a WL ...

...

Originally Posted by Guiwinner

But i don't wanna mean i can't kill a rank 9 warg.

Changed your mind?

Originally Posted by Guiwinner

Anyway you can kill a higth rank but you never win for sure ... !

???

Well, the damage on a hight rank is low but if you do some devastate you can win.

Anyway i wanna mean: a lore master can't win for sure, cause if loremaster don't win a fight will die. A ministrell or a champ or a burg can usrvive more easy and run with npc or other freep with 2 or more creep on.

If i have 2 warg on me ... ( and his shadow stance is bugged and pushback induction with scroll or call anyway ) if they are enought good for interrupt some skill i don't have many time for run away or kill this 2 ... i can die really easy.

At last that's not wrong, it's normal. If you are enought fast you can do a devastate with ent/stiky/sweep and do enought damage for kill all 2 warg too !

I don' tlike when i see another class kill one warg and survive while the other run away ... warg it's like any other class ... atm the etten are full of warg !!!

Originally Posted by Guiwinner

Well, the damage on a hight rank is low but if you do some devastate you can win.

Anyway i wanna mean: a lore master can't win for sure, cause if loremaster don't win a fight will die. A ministrell or a champ or a burg can usrvive more easy and run with npc or other freep with 2 or more creep on.

If i have 2 warg on me ... ( and his shadow stance is bugged and pushback induction with scroll or call anyway ) if they are enought good for interrupt some skill i don't have many time for run away or kill this 2 ... i can die really easy.

At last that's not wrong, it's normal. If you are enought fast you can do a devastate with ent/stiky/sweep and do enought damage for kill all 2 warg too !

I don' tlike when i see another class kill one warg and survive while the other run away ... warg it's like any other class ... atm the etten are full of warg !!!

Im pretty much on the same page. LM seems to lack survival skills big time. Im at audacity 6 now, only need one more piece for the full set and it doesnt really resolve anything about survivability.

I still think the pets could bring some good survivability in the moors for the LM when he is targeted, grouped or not. Considering the pets certainly needs update, since thay are just about the same old pets we had at launch in 2007.

Oh and btw, for the ones who think Im a bad LM because of this thread (not pointed at you Guiwinner); I can solo in the moors, sometimes I win, sometimes not. I got plenty of friends on Brandywine, both sides, who can tell you that I'm not a bad LM, but a good one. Just remember, It is not about me and my skills, its about a class that lack survivability in pvmp. And I think the devs know about it...

Ketzal

A few logical thoughts, which will probably discommode creepfans, but when I take supreme power they will all go for ehtically questionable medical experiments anyway:-)

As a rule classes play a bit differently in the Moors. I've had a lot of fun in groups with a burglar, but on the whiole sneaking and backstabbing are still fully functional. As a captain buffing, combat heals and resses are still operational and wors as you would expect. As a minstrel, healing works as well as ever, mistrel buffs are fine and the dps output if you swing that way can be awesome.

Then you get the poor old LM, whose class skill of CC is utterly worthless and, unless he follows a peculiar build, gets resisted a vast amount of the time. Peculiar builds can be a Moors thing, and you do or you dont, as a rule I dont.

Restore CC to the specialist class if they choose so to do. No DR if in AM build by simply adding to See All Ends a "resets DR on CC" function. Its not AoE, has a cooldown rate so cant be spammed and is a capstone, so requires specific build choices. Alternatively, or more fun, as well, make Improved Frost Lore add a debuff "your hands/mandibles/paws/claws are too cold and shivery to use pots, brands or similar devices". Yes, traited up requirement and can hit more targets, but it can be resisted so not an "I win" button. Yes, that combination will mean that some creeps get a lockdown. My sympathies are never starting.

As an aside the LM will then be specifically targeted, not as now for cheap and easy infamy, but because otherwise he might make a group of up to 8, and indeed a specific creep, an easier target. The fear factor might return. Freep groups will need to act in concert to synergise skills and not just "i can dps more than you", lose the LM and the opposition suddenly get tougher. And yes, that also means that 3 AM traited LMs can stop a creep raid using brands and open 3 of them to mez until dead. I'm sure a warg player will see a chance for much notoriety in getting unseen to an LM protected by a raid and knocking him out, just like some of the better burgs do to creeps.

As a regular Moors player on a relatively quiet server (Crickhollow) the creeps target me first in an experienced set of 6 (freep) vs 10 (creep) fight.

Unless we have a really on-the-ball healer or a cappy to bubble, I go down in about 5 seconds even though the rest of the fellowship seems to survive for many minutes thereafter.

Yay it's fun being a LM in the moors - not.

(almost rank 9 so I have been around... aud 6 gear).

Maybe it's more fun on a server where you have huge roving battles but Crickhollow seems to lack that these days. Server merge? Yes please.

my lore master is an elf ( i think this skill is bugged and i sended a screenshot )
eldar's grace can help but usually for me not work ... cause i have 80% parry and i take every fkn hit but ...
In a group with healer/cap you have a lot of survaibily if you will debuff fast BA and warg, silence don't stop debuff and after you can stun aoe with light storm and run.
Atm the coffe is a must in etten cause a lot of creep have the 10% speed increase and if you missing the food buff you can't kite anyone.

Can be a good point if the consumable ( like for creep potions ) don't be deleted after death ...