After reading through another thread, I feel it's time to evaluate the idea of "story mode" for the raids, that is, the ability for a raid to be scaled down so that a soloer can complet it (or a three man), but the rewards are adjustes accordingly. There would be separate locks (so a raiding kin can't use story mode to get to the final fight almost instantly) - and none of the raid armor sets can be unlocked. The entire point of story mde is to allow those who wouldn't normally get a chance to see raid content a chance to see it.
While your approach to opening up raid content to soloers or small groups is a new one, I continue to fail to see the need. I don't claim to have run every raid in the game, but for the most part, there's no real story to tell in most of them. Enter instance, kill difficult opponents using mechanics requiring a balanced and coordinated group -- there is no story to that. Helegrod may have some story to it, as might the Rift -- I've never stepped foot in either instance. From what I've seen of the current end-game content, there is nothing to advance the unfolding story in Middle-earth -- these are simply very difficult, complicated, drawn-out battles, nothing more.
While your approach to opening up raid content to soloers or small groups is a new one, I continue to fail to see the need. I don't claim to have run every raid in the game, but for the most part, there's no real story to tell in most of them. Enter instance, kill difficult opponents using mechanics requiring a balanced and coordinated group -- there is no story to that. Helegrod may have some story to it, as might the Rift -- I've never stepped foot in either instance. From what I've seen of the current end-game content, there is nothing to advance the unfolding story in Middle-earth -- these are simply very difficult, complicated, drawn-out battles, nothing more.
Actually all of the raids have a story line, and in most cases these stories tie into the epic line. Now they are perfectly option side stories to the epics but they do tie in.
Rift - Forces of Angmar are trying to free a balrog that has been imprisoned.
Helegrod - A gaunt lord is trying to raise an ancient great dragon as a wight to have under his control. This is tied into 1.5.5.
Barad Goldur - You are assaulting the LT of Dol Goldur in order to distract him and weaken his forces to draw attention from the Fellowships mission. This is the culmination of the Dol Guldur instance cluster and is tied into the end of Volume II.
Ost Donhoth - culmination of the In their absence cluster in which the 5 gaunt lords are trying to regain their power in the absence of the rangers as the gray company has departed to fight by Aragorns side. You are directly responsible for gathering the gray company and helping them on their way in the beginning of volume III.
Tower of Orthanc - You are trying to destroy the rings of power that Saruman has forged in imitation of Sauron/gain power.
Actually all of the raids have a story line, and in most cases these stories tie into the epic line. Now they are perfectly option side stories to the epics but they do tie in.
Rift - Forces of Angmar are trying to free a balrog that has been imprisoned.
Helegrod - A gaunt lord is trying to raise an ancient great dragon as a wight to have under his control. This is tied into 1.5.5.
Barad Goldur - You are assaulting the LT of Dol Goldur in order to distract him and weaken his forces to draw attention from the Fellowships mission. This is the culmination of the Dol Guldur instance cluster and is tied into the end of Volume II.
Ost Donhoth - culmination of the In their absence cluster in which the 5 gaunt lords are trying to regain their power in the absence of the rangers as the gray company has departed to fight by Aragorns side. You are directly responsible for gathering the gray company and helping them on their way in the beginning of volume III.
Tower of Orthanc - You are trying to destroy the rings of power that Saruman has forged in imitation of Sauron/gain power.
To add to this, OD is the final instance in the In Their Absence quest arc, and the same holds true for ToO.
So while a group can be put together for the 6 mans relatively easily, and most often succeed, the same doesn't hold true for a raid, so giving people an option to go sight-see, so they can get the last piece of the story, will help get more use out of the instance, especially if all future instances are designed to be scaled, but initially set to only have a level range of 75-75 (effectively making a scaled instance non-scaled).
Some things like the OD Race and ToO Saruman fight would prove problematic to this, though.
While technically the raids do culminate storylines, they do not tell stories, the stories inherent to them are the interactions of the players!
True, the bosses have dialog, that players talk over and complain about how long it is, sometimes it's in a language you can't understand anyway, people make up meanings to be funny and entertain each other. Seeing the space is fairly meaningless.
What brings meaning to it is the challenge of working together with this group of people at this time with this level of sobriety and this level of fatigue to overcome the mechanics.
THAT produces a story.
You could remove all the raids from the game, and Lotro would still be lotro, with folks still complaining about lack of end game content, that instances are too weak/too hard, etc. None of the provided storylines would be impacted negatively.
PS: We already have that mechanic in the game, it's called "Inspiration", and it's invoked for instances that do move the story forward if done without a proper group.
"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
Actually all of the raids have a story line, and in most cases these stories tie into the epic line. Now they are perfectly option side stories to the epics but they do tie in.
Rift - Forces of Angmar are trying to free a balrog that has been imprisoned.
Helegrod - A gaunt lord is trying to raise an ancient great dragon as a wight to have under his control. This is tied into 1.5.5.
Barad Goldur - You are assaulting the LT of Dol Goldur in order to distract him and weaken his forces to draw attention from the Fellowships mission. This is the culmination of the Dol Guldur instance cluster and is tied into the end of Volume II.
Ost Donhoth - culmination of the In their absence cluster in which the 5 gaunt lords are trying to regain their power in the absence of the rangers as the gray company has departed to fight by Aragorns side. You are directly responsible for gathering the gray company and helping them on their way in the beginning of volume III.
Tower of Orthanc - You are trying to destroy the rings of power that Saruman has forged in imitation of Sauron/gain power.
Ah, yes - Barad Goldur. I forgot about that one, as I was thinking of the instances requiring more than a single fellowship. I've got five level 75's so far.... and not a single one of me has completed BG. I'd like to knock that one out of my quest logs and finish off Epic Volume II. For no other reason, you've caused me to reconsider my viewpoint. On the other hand, as part of an Epic Volume, perhaps BG should receive the Inspiration mechanic?
Also, I'd forgotten about Ost Donhoth -- I've never made the effort to pursue the In Their Absence cluster, though I've farmed the North-something one for relics.
+rep to both of you for correcting me without calling me names!
Last edited by Dark_Toad; May 29 2012 at 01:33 PM.
After reading through another thread, I feel it's time to evaluate the idea of "story mode" for the raids, that is, the ability for a raid to be scaled down so that a soloer can complet it (or a three man), but the rewards are adjustes accordingly. There would be separate locks (so a raiding kin can't use story mode to get to the final fight almost instantly) - and none of the raid armor sets can be unlocked. The entire point of story mde is to allow those who wouldn't normally get a chance to see raid content a chance to see it.
Thoughts?
Sure, given the way you've laid it out, why not? Wanting to see everything was one of the reasons I started to raid. It might even encourage people to raid as they might become curious about seeing the "real" fight.
It would have to be quite different though and I highly doubt Turbine would put the effort into it, but always good to try and suggest things.
Ah, yes - Barad Goldur. I forgot about that one, as I was thinking of the instances requiring more than a single fellowship. I've got five level 75's so far.... and not a single one of me has completed BG. I'd like to knock that one out of my quest logs and finish off Epic Volume II. For no other reason, you've caused me to reconsider my viewpoint. On the other hand, as part of an Epic Volume, perhaps BG should receive the Inspiration mechanic?
I had forgotten about the OP Inspiration buff.... perhaps that with a simplified fight (so it's possible solo) + skirmish soldiers, and a very clear understanding that you will not get the good rewards because you're in Story Mode would help (ie: completing the raid in story mode might reward you with a level appropriate SA symbol, but it's impossible to get any of the good stuff).
Originally Posted by Dark_Toad
+rep to both of you for correcting me without calling me names!
I can call you names, which ones would you like me to use? =P
Doing on-level raids with an Inspiration buff and some of the mechanics removed to make solo play possible would be an awesome addition to the game. Even if the raids aren't always the most story-driven parts of the game, there's almost always a ton of work put into the environments and encounters. Even though I've seen all of the content (well, not all of it on T2), I'd *love* to run it solo with inspiration a) because being OP with the inspiration buff is fun and 2) because I'd love to finally be in there with the graphics cranked and sound up, as I always have to turn these down for raids.
Draigoch would be pretty darn boring though, I think.
Draigoch would be pretty darn boring though, I think.
Draigoch (and the Turtle, and potentially The Watcher) would probably be three encounters that'd be far more anticlimatic and problematic to translate to a low player count. Oddly enough, those three seem like good counter-points to this idea.
I don't claim to have run every raid in the game, but for the most part, there's no real story to tell in most of them. Enter instance, kill difficult opponents using mechanics requiring a balanced and coordinated group -- there is no story to that.
The latest book quest, where Gandalf shows up in Galadriel's garden -- he refers to being sent back "then being tied up in dealing with other foes". He's referring directly to OD, and that's the game's interpretation as to why he has not yet arrived at Fangorn Forrest. (Despite having the Challenger title, I didn't make the connection until my third character through. I know, I know, I R smart). The whole "In Their Absence" cluster AND it's aftermath have a small, but definite impact on the story at large.
Originally Posted by Gylve
Doing on-level raids with an Inspiration buff and some of the mechanics removed to make solo play possible would be an awesome addition to the game. Even if the raids aren't always the most story-driven parts of the game, there's almost always a ton of work put into the environments and encounters.
At this point, Rift can be comfortably 2-manned by most players, and a warden on my server has soloed the whole thing up to the drakes. Watcher and turtle have been successfully 3-manned. I don't know the minimum possible for DN, but it feels pretty trivial with 6, so does BG and OD (that Ivar deed will be done.. someday). 2 of the Helegrod wings were 3-manned on level at 65 by some of my kinnies.
I've also seen a full 75 pug watcher group turn over members for hours because they couldn't beat the vile scream.
I doubt that they'd do an inspiration buff type of effect because it's the basic mechanics that define the encounters and are what tie the space together in the first place; you might as well create something from scratch if you're removing group mechanics.
A more probable outcome of a suggestion such as this would be "5 generic OD skirms, one for each boss", "generic skirm #1-6 for each are of ToO", ect.
Still, not a bad idea at all.
Last edited by scrubmonkey; May 29 2012 at 10:13 PM.
True, the bosses have dialog, that players talk over and complain about how long it is, sometimes it's in a language you can't understand anyway, people make up meanings to be funny and entertain each other. Seeing the space is fairly meaningless.
This is exactly why I would like such a mechanic. When I'm running instances, it's usually with people who are only interested in the gear, or who have been grinding it for months, and they're often complaining about how the bosses won't stop talking, etc. But if it's my first time in, I would kind of like to hear what the NPCs have to say. When I was going through the In Their Absence chain, I hurriedly clicked through all the dialogue, taking as many screenshots as I could to peruse later, because everyone was waiting for me. Having a chance to go in solo would let me take my own pace, without having to worry about bothering all those people who really don't care about the story.
I'm most definitely not a raider, but I have a kind kin who let me come along for several attempts at the fear wing of OD. I don't know about anyone else, but standing there on a platform, looking across at a balrog (!), felt pretty epic to me. We ended up wiping a few times, but I didn't really mind - for me it was amazing just to be there. The mechanics and group play are a big part of that feeling, sure, and I guess some instances are more engaging than others, but it would still be nice to have a way to see what's in some of these harder instances. I've tried looking up videos on YouTube, but that's not quite the same, somehow.
As for how it could actually be done... some instances just wouldn't make sense solo, and maybe only certain ones will ever be convertible, even if they're motivated to do it. But I think it's a nice idea, and if it somehow came into existence I would most definitely be using it.
This is exactly why I would like such a mechanic. When I'm running instances, it's usually with people who are only interested in the gear, or who have been grinding it for months, and they're often complaining about how the bosses won't stop talking, etc. But if it's my first time in, I would kind of like to hear what the NPCs have to say. When I was going through the In Their Absence chain, I hurriedly clicked through all the dialogue, taking as many screenshots as I could to peruse later, because everyone was waiting for me. Having a chance to go in solo would let me take my own pace, without having to worry about bothering all those people who really don't care about the story.
Yes, it's kind of ironic that devs create all that dialog and lip-sync tech etc to fights that is probably mostly seen by people who don't care about that too much because they go there for the loot (of course there are exceptions to that rule).
This used to bug me a lot back when Epic books weren't soloable and you never had time to read what those NPC's said (I always remeber Legolas here) because someone already said "blah blah blah LET'S GO ALREADY!!!!111" and clicked the text away. Luckily that is now history as we can take our time reading the quest text and NPC talk in our own pace.
I would like to see that Draigoch lip-sync tech live, it was advertised so much back when they were releasing that raid So I would do this story mode for sure.
Since alot of dev time is spent creating those spaces I like this idea very much. Story mode could be implemented not only for single players, but for varying group sizes like the inspired buff from the epic books. Would be a little like godmode.
However I don't think there should be any kind of loot. Story mode should be for the story and to see the place, if you want any loot please do the instance like we all do .
Last edited by Valerian_Moonfire; May 30 2012 at 05:52 AM.
Turtle, Watcher and BG are probably the least story-driven of raids. Little to no interaction other than "kill stuff, get loot".
Rift has Talky McTalkerson the ancient balrog-babysitting elf who talks forever. Helegrod had the "Drugoth reanimating Thorog with TEH EVILS" bit. DN's story is mostly in the quests from the guy by the old instance entrace at the back end of Foundations of Stone where nobody goes anymore (Summary: kill evil things, get loot). OD had the nifty balrog, and gortheron voiceovers/cameos. Draigoch's story is 80% unveiled by the quests you have to do before you can do the raid (hint: the other 20% involves killing him and taking his loot.) Orthanc's story is mostly Saruman driven; he shows up briefly in the first 3 boss fights to taunt you about how awesome the rings he made for his dudes are, followed by your killing the aforementioned dudes and taking their loot. The Saruman fight is neat from a story perspective (EAGLES!) but with the 5 mutually exclusive rings would be difficult to translate to solo mode.
If that were so, why'd they integrate the raids into the storylines as shown above?
The flip side of that coin is: Would they be able to put EVEN MORE story in the raids if they knew that everyone would get to see that story? I find the idea exciting.
The flip side of that coin is: Would they be able to put EVEN MORE story in the raids if they knew that everyone would get to see that story? I find the idea exciting.
Especially since we already have the scaled instance tech.
I was surprised that the entire OD cluster wasn't designed to be scaled, set to a range of 65-65, and when RoI released, immediately recylced as scaled instances.
Personally, I'd rather have an ever growing number of things to do at endgame than the current "we barely have enough stuff" problem.
Since alot of dev time is spent creating those spaces I like this idea very much. Story mode could be implemented not only for single players, but for varying group sizes like the inspired buff from the epic books. Would be a little like godmode.
However I don't think there should be any kind of loot. Story mode should be for the story and to see the place, if you want any loot please do the instance like we all do .
I think a story mode version of raids is a fair accommodation with the above no-loot caveat (I would say the same for any instance currently forcing the stupid inspired greatness buff on us, but I suppose that ship has sadly sailed).
I think a story mode version of raids is a fair accommodation with the above no-loot caveat (I would say the same for any instance currently forcing the stupid inspired greatness buff on us, but I suppose that ship has sadly sailed).
I wouldn't say "no loot", just an inferior loot table to what's in the raid. If people want the good rewards, they should go do the raid, if people want to just sight see, that's what story mode would be for.
Add my vote to this. There are a lot of things I would love to see that I probably never will otherwise. As someone else mentioned, by the time I usually get into a raid, most of the other members have already run it and just click through everything or know exactly where they are going. I'm an explorer, and even if I die a few times, I like to explore and see all the little things the devs have added, even to the raid spaces.
Preferably minimal loot, low end loot, or low level skirmish marks so it would take forever grinding this way.
I would also like to be able to complete some of the related deeds.
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