As some will know, champs have the option of playing the role of tank. With RoI we had that option enhanced and altered to make us stand out from Guard tanking. The problem is, we weren't fully compensated for what we lacked compared to Guards. So here are a few suggestions to be made to champ tanking.
1. Increased Critical Defence - Currently, a champ can have about 1.5k crit def unbuffed. Using Hedge, we can take that to 2k. Most guards will have at least 4k crit def.
I suggest increasing crit defense on Improved Hedge for 4.5k, allowing champs to reach 6k crit defence.
2. Increased Morale - Good tanking champs will sit around 14k unbuffed. Good guards will sit around 20k. I won't compare average tanking champs to average guards because you can't have an average tanking champ. It's either good or nothing.
I suggest giving champs in full blue trait line and in Glory stance the ability to have vitality to give morale at a ratio of 1:5 like Guards, instead of 1:3 as it currently is.
If anyone wants to question why champs need this, feel free. I know some won't realise how a champ works when tanking and will think that bubbles and heals are OP for them but I don't mind explaining why that's incorrect.
If you're just going to post 'roll a guard', just don't bother. Champs have the trait line for a reason.
Added: If you're going to post 'hurr durr secondary roll', don't bother. The devs gave champs the ability to be a tank if they wanted.
What I am actually wondering here, is why you compare the secondary role of a champion, with the primary role of a guardian?
I quite frankly don't see the point why a specialized area of effect DPS dealer (champion), shoulde perform the not specialized secondary role (tanking) as good as the class (guardian) that did specialize in this role. Your secondary role is not meant to be as good as your primary role. Unless you want to exchange your primary role (AoE DPS) for your secondary role (tanking).
If you're just going to post 'roll a guard', just don't bother.
I'm confused that if you want to be a guard so much, why you don't just roll a guard, yet tell us not to tell you to roll a guard?
And for the record: My guardian only have 3820 crit hit avoidance. Furthermore it only has 16.5k unbuffed morale. I don't think even our main guardian tanks have 20k unbuffed morale. My guard is also decently geared, not top of the line, but able to complete some T2 without a challenge we believe.
My much less geared warden only has 2780 crit hit avoidance.
I'm not sure where you're getting your information from, but you seem to be of the mentality that every class with the same role should be the exact same.
What I am actually wondering here, is why you compare the secondary role of a champion, with the primary role of a guardian?
I quite frankly don't see the point why a specialized area of effect DPS dealer (champion), shoulde perform the not specialized secondary role (tanking) as good as the class (guardian) that did specialize in this role. Your secondary role is not meant to be as good as your primary role. Unless you want to exchange your primary role (AoE DPS) for your secondary role (tanking).
Doesn't matter if it's a secondary roll or a primary roll, the point is it is still a roll. It just isn't as adjusted as it should have been.
Originally Posted by keikii
I'm confused that if you want to be a guard so much, why you don't just roll a guard, yet tell us not to tell you to roll a guard?
And for the record: My guardian only have 3820 crit hit avoidance. Furthermore it only has 16.5k unbuffed morale. I don't think even our main guardian tanks have 20k unbuffed morale. My guard is also decently geared, not top of the line, but able to complete some T2 without a challenge we believe.
My much less geared warden only has 2780 crit hit avoidance.
I'm not sure where you're getting your information from, but you seem to be of the mentality that every class with the same role should be the exact same.
At what point did I say I wanted to be a guard? I like the style of a champ tanking. I like the use of skills they have. The only thing I want is more morale and better crit defence, since the way we tank requires it.
I'm not saying every class should be the exact same, either. It's not exactly hard to work out from my post that I wasn't asking for champs to tank like guards, primarily because I DIDN'T ASK FOR THEM TO BE THE SAME.
Also, the numbers I gave were the numbers from good guards and champs, all rounded up or down to the nearest 500/1000 (since champs don't really have 1.5k crit def straight, I think mine has something like 1,324 or something, it was for ease).
A champ can on some bosses take a hit of 13k nondev (unlucky yes, but it happens). If you're sitting on 15k (which is close to whata a fully geared champ will have) it's gonna hurt a lot more than if you sit on 20k.
As for giving 1:5 in glory instead of 1:3 I think it's a good idea. Add it to the deep-blue trait and also add a -25% dmg reduction to even it out (as stated earlier when tanking you'll be leeching anyway)
Doesn't matter if it's a secondary roll or a primary roll, the point is it is still a roll. It just isn't as adjusted as it should have been.
Actually, it does matter. Your secondary role is not supposed to be as well tuned as your primary role. It is done to encourage people to find a natural balance between classes. The feeling I get from your request, is that you want to be excellent in both tanking and DPS. And this, my friend, is bordering pretty darn close on requesting to change the champions class into an alpha-class.
The champion class is not meant to tank. On rare occassions when the main tank of a group is defeated mid-battle, the champion might take over for a while. But then the goal of all groups will be to get the main tank on his/her feet as soon as possible. This is where the secondary role of a champion comes into play. You're primary role remains AoE DPS though.
Mark me down for a big no thanks to the OPs suggestion. In fact please remove our tank line and remove all other secondary class roles. It's been nothing but bad for the game and most complaints about most classes revolve around these secondary roles.
A secondary role should at best be a backup role and never approach the strength of someone performing that same role as their primary.
Remove those stupid bubbles. Give us our focus back. Champs are killers not tanks.
Our roles should be as they were presented in SoA. AoE dps. ST dps. And THEN off tank. And you know how we off tank? By pulling aggro and making that target dead ASAP.
The entire feel and math of the champ started downhill in Moria and it's only gotten worse over time as this "tank" role has been expanded and supported. Heck. Take away Glory. Please.
Last edited by Thane9; May 29 2012 at 08:17 AM.
Second Marshal Luc Brandenbuck ~Battlemaster~
Stalker's Enemy*Reaver's Enemy*Blackarrow's Enemy*Warleader-Foe*Weaver's Enemy*Defiler-Foe Champion:'The only thing our opponents can do that we care about is die.'-Graalx2
Actually, it does matter. Your secondary role is not supposed to be as well tuned as your primary role. It is done to encourage people to find a natural balance between classes. The feeling I get from your request, is that you want to be excellent in both tanking and DPS. And this, my friend, is bordering pretty darn close on requesting to change the champions class into an alpha-class.
You seem to miss that you have to be one or the other. You can't be both tank and DPS. You can't even change between fights without having to go to a bard for an overhaul. So a champ can choose between DPS or Tank. So no, it isn't an alpha class at all.
Originally Posted by Shariva
The champion class is not meant to tank. On rare occassions when the main tank of a group is defeated mid-battle, the champion might take over for a while. But then the goal of all groups will be to get the main tank on his/her feet as soon as possible. This is where the secondary role of a champion comes into play. You're primary role remains AoE DPS though.
Please don't feed me that rubbish. A champ CAN tank. They have a whole trait line designed for TANKING. They had a huge update all around TANKING.So if you've traited completely for tanking, you don't have the primary role of AoE DPS, you have the primary role of tank.
Something tells me you know absolutely nothing about champions.
Originally Posted by Thane9
Mark me down for a big no thanks to the OPs suggestion. In fact please remove our tank line and remove all other secondary class roles. It's been nothing but bad for the game and most complaints about most classes revolve around these secondary roles.
A secondary role should at best be a backup role and never approach the strength of someone performing that same role as their primary.
Remove those stupid bubbles. Give us our focus back. Champs are killers not tanks.
Our roles should be as they were presented in SoA. AoE dps. ST dps. And THEN off tank. And you know how we off tank? By pulling aggro and making that target dead ASAP.
The entire feel and math of the champ started downhill in Moria and it's only gotten worse over time as this "tank" role has been expanded and supported. Heck. Take away Glory. Please.
Mark me down for a big no thanks to the OPs suggestion. In fact please remove our tank line and remove all other secondary class roles. It's been nothing but bad for the game and most complaints about most classes revolve around these secondary roles.
A secondary role should at best be a backup role and never approach the strength of someone performing that same role as their primary.
Remove those stupid bubbles. Give us our focus back. Champs are killers not tanks.
Our roles should be as they were presented in SoA. AoE dps. ST dps. And THEN off tank. And you know how we off tank? By pulling aggro and making that target dead ASAP.
The entire feel and math of the champ started downhill in Moria and it's only gotten worse over time as this "tank" role has been expanded and supported. Heck. Take away Glory. Please.
Just incase any dev is reading this: please ignore Thane9's request. His opinion does in no way reflect the opinion of the general population. The secondary roles are a great addition to the game. My champ is a much better tank than she used to be and Im very happy with that. Its good the days of the old fervourtank are over..that was nightmare for my mins. The days of waiting for ages to find a tank are over..finally a champ/captain can step up to the plate and say: lets just find a random for that sixth spot, I can tank this one. Nowadays people on 5/6 asking for a tank for longer than half an hour just make me chuckle.
Having said that Im going to vote no on Dorothirs request as well. My champ (and my captain for that matter, everyone seems to forget we have 4 tank classes in the game now, not 3) can tank every threeman without any problem, even with a not-so-great geared healer. Sixmans usually work fine too. Raids are more problematic, but if champs and captains were able to tank all raid content easily the guards and wardens would be out of a job now would they?
the fact is: a glory traited champ does a lot more damage than a tank specced guard/warden. A guard traited for OP or a ward traited for recklessness doesn't do nearly as much damage as a fervour specced champ. Unless they buff OP and reck I see no reason to buff glory. It performs the job it was ment to do without problems. (tanking three- and sixmans)
Just incase any dev is reading this: please ignore Thane9's request. His opinion does in no way reflect the opinion of the general population. The secondary roles are a great addition to the game. My champ is a much better tank than she used to be and Im very happy with that. Its good the days of the old fervourtank are over..that was nightmare for my mins. The days of waiting for ages to find a tank are over..finally a champ/captain can step up to the plate and say: lets just find a random for that sixth spot, I can tank this one. Nowadays people on 5/6 asking for a tank for longer than half an hour just make me chuckle.
Having said that Im going to vote no on Dorothirs request as well. My champ (and my captain for that matter, everyone seems to forget we have 4 tank classes in the game now, not 3) can tank every threeman without any problem, even with a not-so-great geared healer. Sixmans usually work fine too. Raids are more problematic, but if champs and captains were able to tank all raid content easily the guards and wardens would be out of a job now would they?
the fact is: a glory traited champ does a lot more damage than a tank specced guard/warden. A guard traited for OP or a ward traited for recklessness doesn't do nearly as much damage as a fervour specced champ. Unless they buff OP and reck I see no reason to buff glory. It performs the job it was ment to do without problems. (tanking three- and sixmans)
I have to agree with this post ^
"Accept the things to which fate binds you, and love the people with whom fate brings you together, but do so with all your heart." - Marcus Aelius Aurelius
Having said that Im going to vote no on Dorothirs request as well. My champ (and my captain for that matter, everyone seems to forget we have 4 tank classes in the game now, not 3) can tank every threeman without any problem, even with a not-so-great geared healer. Sixmans usually work fine too. Raids are more problematic, but if champs and captains were able to tank all raid content easily the guards and wardens would be out of a job now would they?
It is true we can tank 3 and 6 mans fine but as you point out raids are difficult. That's where this change comes into it. I love tanking on my champ, it's just so much more fun than a guard, I just can't see why we have to have so much less morale and crit def while still having close to worthless avoidances. Hence the suggestion for increased morale and crit def.
I don't think it would make tanks and wardens obsolete either for a variety of reasons. I mean, each tanking class brings something different to the table so it's really just down to taste. Otherwise, wouldn't most classes be out of a job because other classes can do the same as them?
Originally Posted by Cronin_Stickyfingers
the fact is: a glory traited champ does a lot more damage than a tank specced guard/warden. A guard traited for OP or a ward traited for recklessness doesn't do nearly as much damage as a fervour specced champ. Unless they buff OP and reck I see no reason to buff glory. It performs the job it was ment to do without problems. (tanking three- and sixmans)
I'm not 100% sure that full glory tank champ does much more damage anymore. I was checking out my own guard (I despise him) and his DPS was actually pretty huge with a shield. Probably because I've had to drop my phys mast to 10k for other things on my champ but maybe because of rotations (mostly aggro and survival skills over actual DPS).
But it is true that champs have much greater DPS than guards in OP. I do think that OP guards need to be buffed someway. Obviously not as good as champs (since this suggestion wouldn't make champs as easy as guards still) but close to it. Maybe a Continuous Blood Rage style skill would help them or a skill that allows more DPS as the guard is damaged. That's probably best for a different thread, though.
First of all second role doesn't mean weak role!!! Not the best tank on the game but still tank. Or should we completely ignore the dps loremaster or the Rk healer or the dps ministrel who by the way does awesome dmg.
Second this game gives you variety.And that's a good thing cause any player fantasize his character differently.And since its available the role as a tank he has every right to play it.Lets not stick everybody on same idea. 6 virtues must always have. 5 jewlings must always have etc etc....its stupid and really boring.
Third I don't know about other servers doing but on my server tanks are species in danger. It would be great if you could turn and said ok lets give the champ to tank. It would make an easier job on finding a tank.
Though i agree on all that...and say go ahead i also agree that in super tight situations an average or at least good champ isnt that good enough.lets say a raid T2 saruman wing or even some t1.
I believe champ after Roi is another class, 2 levels above at least on dps. On tank it gets a bit better but not all that muchfrom what it used to be.
So here what changes i propose:
1)Give one taunt at least more. Champ has only one and is for single target.In an instance with many mobs its difficult to pick all with just aoe.
2)An increase on armor buffs.
3)Better buffs on class traits.
Also champ can be a very different tank. Guardian a massive wall that takes everything on him and gets little dmg.Warden a self healing tank with lots of morale. Champ could be a tank full of stuns and paralizing and poisons from his blade attacks and horns. Just an idea....
I will agree that role of a champ is that of a tank and its there to use if you want. I agree also that in difficult situations champs can only work as secondary tank,and be honest from that thing exactly people don't believe on champs in the tank role. SO either think of a new class role and remove tank completely. Or better increase that role.
RK clearly is being used for 2 roles why champ can't be like this. Was not meant to be ?Then the Devs must think of another traits line
You seem to miss that you have to be one or the other. You can't be both tank and DPS. You can't even change between fights without having to go to a bard for an overhaul. So a champ can choose between DPS or Tank. So no, it isn't an alpha class at all.
Actually, what you are asking for are passives. Passives are always on and thus you would have basically the tanking abilities while being in DPS. This is also known as huge defensive abilities with strong DPS output. This is actually bordering on alpha class. I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with your request here.
Originally Posted by Dorothir
Please don't feed me that rubbish. A champ CAN tank. They have a whole trait line designed for TANKING. They had a huge update all around TANKING.So if you've traited completely for tanking, you don't have the primary role of AoE DPS, you have the primary role of tank.
Something tells me you know absolutely nothing about champions.
OK, let me remind you that it was you who was asking to challenge your request, not anyone else. If you are then challenged, please don't respond by starting of with "Don't feed me that rubbish." All it does is make you look silly. Secondly, I was not questioning if champions CAN tank. Nowhere in my responses did I ever even indicated that. All I was saying is that champions are not MEANT to tank. There is a big difference there. Please scroll back and read it again. Thirdly, champions are designed around DPS primarily. If you want to tank using your secondary role, be my guest. But do not expect to be just as good as the classes primarily designed for it (guardian, warden).
I get the feeling from your posts that all you want is to be as good in tanking as the designated tanking classes, as you are in dealing AoE DPS. Anyone who challenges that and tries to explain why, is just being shoved away.
Lastly; yes, I do not know a great deal about champions. But I do know that they have the primary role of AoE DPS, as designed from the very inception of this game, and the secondary role of tanking. The secondary role of tanking also comes from the inception of the game, when champions could still equip a heavy shield when traited for it. If you don't want me to challenge your request, then don't ask for it in you OP.
Actually, what you are asking for are passives. Passives are always on and thus you would have basically the tanking abilities while being in DPS. This is also known as huge defensive abilities with strong DPS output. This is actually bordering on alpha class. I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with your request here.
OK, let me remind you that it was you who was asking to challenge your request, not anyone else. If you are then challenged, please don't respond by starting of with "Don't feed me that rubbish." All it does is make you look silly. Secondly, I was not questioning if champions CAN tank. Nowhere in my responses did I ever even indicated that. All I was saying is that champions are not MEANT to tank. There is a big difference there. Please scroll back and read it again. Thirdly, champions are designed around DPS primarily. If you want to tank using your secondary role, be my guest. But do not expect to be just as good as the classes primarily designed for it (guardian, warden).
I get the feeling from your posts that all you want is to be as good in tanking as the designated tanking classes, as you are in dealing AoE DPS. Anyone who challenges that and tries to explain why, is just being shoved away.
Lastly; yes, I do not know a great deal about champions. But I do know that they have the primary role of AoE DPS, as designed from the very inception of this game, and the secondary role of tanking. The secondary role of tanking also comes from the inception of the game, when champions could still equip a heavy shield when traited for it. If you don't want me to challenge your request, then don't ask for it in you OP.
I'm sorry but if you think champions weren't MEANT to tank (you obviously never read 1. The dev diaries in which they expressed the idea of a champion of being a VIABLE tank to the Guardians and Wardens and 2. You mentioned recalling champions used to have shields... mhmm usually TANKS have shields... we no longer have them though) then you have no idea what you're talking about. Also you mention you don't know a great deal about champions. If you don't know, then why are you still talking about them? Honestly. Yes champions are designed to be DPS, that's granted, but there are instances when we need to tank, in those cases it'd be nice if we were a bit more buffed as the OP said (in my opinion it'd be 4 morale pts, per vit so we're not too OP) so that we could do another role better. Yes it's a secondary role, but it's still a role. We're not asking to do something we're not meant to do. We can TANK and if are going to, we want to at least be somewhat good at it. NOT as good as a warden or a guardian, but a bit better than we are right now.
When I read these kind of proposals from you, this one is not the first. I get the impression you want to eliminate the Guardian class. The only role a Guardian better than a Champion is the tank role. I do not play a high level Warden. I suspect there would be no reason to have Wardens either.
You are wanting to make Champions into the master of two primary roles - AOE DPS and Tank. This situation has always been a problem with the Rune Keeper because they are a Healer and DPS specialist. Taken to it is logical conclusion you could replace Guardians, Hunters and Wardens with the Champion for all content.
Champions would be most popular class by far because they do everything except buff, debuff, crowd control and healing. Remember there is a significant time investment in the care and feeding of multiple characters. It is extremely attractive to people like me who have a Champion, Guardian and Hunter. I can stop playing my Guardian and my Hunter because my Champion can it do all. It is even more attractive to the people who only have time for one character.
In spite of its attractiveness, I tend to get bored playing the same character all the time. Long term it is a poor solution to me because I will level my uber Champion. I've done everything. Time to go play Mass Effect, Skyrim, SWTOR.
It is not good for Turbine. Turbine makes money selling character slots and character upgrades. Legendary system support products. With people playing Champions instead Guardians, Hunters and Wardens that revenue goes away. Warden is a premium class. You have to buy the ability to play a Warden. Turbine reduces their sales of the Warden class.
I don't see the benefit for the majority of the customer base. I don't see the benefit for Turbine. It seems like something that appeals to customers that only play Champions. I get the issue of rolling around on the floor as Foros or Tantalus in a ball with the other Champions, other Hunters and DPS Runekeepers fighting over the limited DPS slots.
It is so much easier competing for a healer or tank slot. Especially if it is a raid slot. I solved the issue is being left behind or not being able to form a group because it is all DPS classes signed up especially Hunters by making a Guardian and a Minstrel.
Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.
Yes it's a secondary role, but it's still a role. We're not asking to do something we're not meant to do. We can TANK and if are going to, we want to at least be somewhat good at it. NOT as good as a warden or a guardian, but a bit better than we are right now.
Your Champion is only level 40 according to your signature. You reach level cap and you learn how to use your Bubbles and other skills properly via a good rotation. You find out that Champions are good secondary tanks. You can off-tank any instance. You can main tank everything except the most difficult content. You are always able to take the pressure off the main tank for a little bit in an emergency. A situation where the Guardian (or other main tank) and the Healer can not keep up with the incoming damage.
It takes some effort on the part of a Champion player to really learn how to tank. Champions always start out as natural killers. Making the transistion to tank is hard.
Last edited by Yula_the_Mighty; May 29 2012 at 01:38 PM.
Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.
My opinion is equally as valid as yours. In this thread or another. Get used to that fact.
You can insist you have some sort of higher authority, but you do not.
Let's just get that one point nice and clear, shall we? Your opinion is no more valid than anyone elses.
---
Now, to provide more information to support why I believe the way I do.
Roles when left specific and targeted within the domain of one class can be very powerful because they have offsetting weaknesses.
When we start down the path of trying to offer "jack of all trades" role diversity to each class we run the risk of OP situations arising...think of the nearly endless tweaks/nerfs/changes to the Champ class after Champ-tanking became all the rage after MoM. It was undeniably BAD for the game. It was bad for the Guardian class. It was bad for the Champ class. It introduced problems that still plague our class as they try and balance our tank-ability with our damage output.
Let's look at other examples...the current Minstrel dps build, is EXCEPTIONALLY problematic in PvMP. Heck, alot of these off role specs are problematic in PvMP. They're the source of most complaints. And they're continually proving problematic for end game raid design...just look at what they did to melee classes in the Nazgul fight.
It's bad enough they introduced hybrid classes to the game (read RKs). Those are hard enough to balance and keep some form of solid game design but they do NOT need to continue to try and mutate every other class into a hybrid.
One doesn't have to research long on MMO and game development in general to see how problematic hybrid classes are in games.
I'd rather have NO bubbles, NO glory, None of that trying to outlast my opponent skills and have real damage.
Instead they have to play this endless game of stripping what made our class unique to make us more and more capable to tank...a role that NO CHAMP should have originially chosen because that was not originally our role.
Bad mechanics beget bad mechanics and literally doubling the roles of your core classes is bad mechanics. And hybrid roles like this end up with players who play sloppily, or have little desire to be good at their primary role, or don't even understand their primary role.
It's a bad idea all around. It was a bad idea then. It's a bad idea now.
I don't want to lose even 1 dps for some tank build to get tankier. Enough is enough.
Second Marshal Luc Brandenbuck ~Battlemaster~
Stalker's Enemy*Reaver's Enemy*Blackarrow's Enemy*Warleader-Foe*Weaver's Enemy*Defiler-Foe Champion:'The only thing our opponents can do that we care about is die.'-Graalx2
Just incase any dev is reading this: please ignore Thane9's request. His opinion does in no way reflect the opinion of the general population. The secondary roles are a great addition to the game. My champ is a much better tank than she used to be and Im very happy with that. Its good the days of the old fervourtank are over..that was nightmare for my mins. The days of waiting for ages to find a tank are over..finally a champ/captain can step up to the plate and say: lets just find a random for that sixth spot, I can tank this one. Nowadays people on 5/6 asking for a tank for longer than half an hour just make me chuckle.
Having said that Im going to vote no on Dorothirs request as well. My champ (and my captain for that matter, everyone seems to forget we have 4 tank classes in the game now, not 3) can tank every threeman without any problem, even with a not-so-great geared healer. Sixmans usually work fine too. Raids are more problematic, but if champs and captains were able to tank all raid content easily the guards and wardens would be out of a job now would they?
the fact is: a glory traited champ does a lot more damage than a tank specced guard/warden. A guard traited for OP or a ward traited for recklessness doesn't do nearly as much damage as a fervour specced champ. Unless they buff OP and reck I see no reason to buff glory. It performs the job it was ment to do without problems. (tanking three- and sixmans)
"The days of waiting for ages to find a tank are over"
I would suggest the lack of real tanks on the game have something to do with the removal of their need to be in the game.
Secondary roles HURT the game. And making them more and more powerful will only hurt the game more.
Look, I get it, people enjoy being able to do it all. But that doesn't make it right for game design. In fact, it is exactly what makes it BAD for game design.
Roles, and the cost/benefit scenerio they add to the game, are CRITICAL to balance, design and dependancy on each other as a player base. Something that is critical in a SOCIAL multiplayer game like an MMO.
Go ahead, boost glory. But reduce the damage by 99%. Make that added flexibility COST something instead of just being heaped on top of a DPS class. Although I'd suggest this would still be a bad approach to design...better to just have a seperate tank class.
Second Marshal Luc Brandenbuck ~Battlemaster~
Stalker's Enemy*Reaver's Enemy*Blackarrow's Enemy*Warleader-Foe*Weaver's Enemy*Defiler-Foe Champion:'The only thing our opponents can do that we care about is die.'-Graalx2
Actually, what you are asking for are passives. Passives are always on and thus you would have basically the tanking abilities while being in DPS. This is also known as huge defensive abilities with strong DPS output. This is actually bordering on alpha class. I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with your request here.
I think you're missing what the suggestion is. The increase crit def and morale would ONLY be available if you are deep in blue traits and in Glory stance. You CANNOT get these by traiting DPS and going for DPS.
So no, you cannot have both DPS and Tanking.
Originally Posted by Lothirieth
OK, let me remind you that it was you who was asking to challenge your request, not anyone else. If you are then challenged, please don't respond by starting of with "Don't feed me that rubbish." All it does is make you look silly.
Actually, I was allowing people to question why, not to make incorrect statements that champs aren't supposed to tank.
Originally Posted by Lothirieth
Secondly, I was not questioning if champions CAN tank. Nowhere in my responses did I ever even indicated that. All I was saying is that champions are not MEANT to tank. There is a big difference there. Please scroll back and read it again.
If champs CAN tank then we are MEANT to tank, just as the dev said in the update for champs. Your opinions on that doesn't change anything.
Originally Posted by Lothirieth
Thirdly, champions are designed around DPS primarily. If you want to tank using your secondary role, be my guest. But do not expect to be just as good as the classes primarily designed for it (guardian, warden).
Did I ask to be as good? No. What did I ask for? Increased morale and crit defence. Please, when reading a suggestion, don't add your own ideas to it as though they were in the post.
Originally Posted by Lothirieth
I get the feeling from your posts that all you want is to be as good in tanking as the designated tanking classes, as you are in dealing AoE DPS. Anyone who challenges that and tries to explain why, is just being shoved away.
No, anyone who uses the same old, tired, defeated 'explanantions' as we've had in previous threads will be shoved away.
Originally Posted by Lothirieth
Lastly; yes, I do not know a great deal about champions. But I do know that they have the primary role of AoE DPS, as designed from the very inception of this game, and the secondary role of tanking. The secondary role of tanking also comes from the inception of the game, when champions could still equip a heavy shield when traited for it. If you don't want me to challenge your request, then don't ask for it in you OP.
If you don't know a lot about champs, I'd suggest not commenting here. You clearly don't know what the situation is for champ tanks.
When I read these kind of proposals from you, this one is not the first. I get the impression you want to eliminate the Guardian class. The only role a Guardian better than a Champion is the tank role. I do not play a high level Warden. I suspect there would be no reason to have Wardens either.
Increasing morale and crit defence wouldn't eliminate the Guard or Warden. Both have their advantages for different situations.
Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty
You are wanting to make Champions into the master of two primary roles - AOE DPS and Tank. This situation has always been a problem with the Rune Keeper because they are a Healer and DPS specialist. Taken to it is logical conclusion you could replace Guardians, Hunters and Wardens with the Champion for all content.
But Runekeepers haven't replaced minstrels. Or replaced champions. Or hunters.
Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty
Champions would be most popular class by far because they do everything except buff, debuff, crowd control and healing. Remember there is a significant time investment in the care and feeding of multiple characters. It is extremely attractive to people like me who have a Champion, Guardian and Hunter. I can stop playing my Guardian and my Hunter because my Champion can it do all. It is even more attractive to the people who only have time for one character.
You can stop playing your hunter even now. Your champ already does the same thing.
I'm sorry but I had to stop responding after this point because it seems you're stuck in the opinion that giving champs more morale and crit defence will some how destablise LotRO and every class that is either DPS or tank. That's an incorrect and extreme scenario to jump to.
Originally Posted by Thane9
My opinion is equally as valid as yours. In this thread or another. Get used to that fact.
Your opinion isn't the topic at hand. Your opinion is something entirely different. Your opinion is derailing a thread, so go make your own one and talk about your opinion there.
Originally Posted by Thane9
I don't want to lose even 1 dps for some tank build to get tankier. Enough is enough.
Your paranoia that increasing champ morale and crit defence ONLY IN DEEP BLUE GLORY will some how result in losing DPS is a bit much.
What I am actually wondering here, is why you compare the secondary role of a champion, with the primary role of a guardian?
I quite frankly don't see the point why a specialized area of effect DPS dealer (champion), shoulde perform the not specialized secondary role (tanking) as good as the class (guardian) that did specialize in this role. Your secondary role is not meant to be as good as your primary role. Unless you want to exchange your primary role (AoE DPS) for your secondary role (tanking).
Wanna talk aoe fine with me RK make more aoe than a champ per second with 3 mob infront of you. Soo well....
Guardian has 2 trait class one for avoidance and one for agroo , when warden and champion has only 1 tanking class set up.
You should reed what dev said when refurbishing the tanking trait for champion.
Soo: bein honest, champion should be perma hit to hold agroo when guardian and warden will try to avoid as much dammage , that tell you all a tank that need to be hit all the time is normal that he as to be able to survive without making healer become crazy.
And concereing one more point that champion tanking should have is bit more agroo generation or aoe leach to be able to hold agroo on dps race fight.
The fact give option : you do not like tanking style as guardian, fine you have warden or champ as option is like that for the champion that do not like to tank as champ they will go for warden or guardian. etc...
The OP makes also makes some valid points concerning needing morale and critic defense. However maybe the answers can be found in how the class is unique instead of making it more like another one.
After looking at how a Warden and Captain gets and holds aggro (which is harder than a guardian) I've been wondering if a Champion might get and hold aggro different too. (I admit I haven't played a Champion much.) What I have also discovered is that classes tank better and get more aggro if they focus on strengths of their class. For example Guardians use their toughness (high moral, threat skills, high armor) while Wardens use their agility (self healing, and avoidance, buffing themselves) and Captains use their leadership (buffs, heals, marks, ect). Maybe, just maybe the lower morale and lack of critical defense is intended to be offset by the much higher DPS and AoE damage a Champion can do and their "bubbles". I like that different classes do their roles in different ways so maybe a champion doesn't tank like a guardian therefor the skills they need are different.
The solution to this problem may be just learning and teaching a fellowship how best to play while a Champion is tanking. Maybe this means getting the captain or Loremaster in the group to give heals after a critical hit. I know Wardens usually ask fellowships to give them a few seconds to build up aggro maybe a Champion needs the same. Maybe the fellowship can hit the AoE's harder so battles end sooner. Maybe the shield needs to be replaced at the end of battle with a second blade so boss doesn't have as many chances for a critical hit. Maybe the group needs an LM to keep the tanking champions power up. My advice is to focus on the weight and the value all that extra damage will help while tanking and slot for that. I know Rk's need different stones for healing and DPS. Maybe a Champion needs different Li's for DPS and Tanking to help out.
I think it is great that classes have weaknesses and the fact that your secondary trait line is not as good as your primary is neat too. There is nothing wrong with a Champion saying, "I'm willing to tank, I'lll slot for it but ...(insert weakness) and we have to (insert solution) to stay alive and win."
I do enjoy figuring out how best to use a fellowships resources together to stay alive and kill things faster.
I for one would sign 1:4 vit/morale ratio in deep traited Glory - 1:5 is enroaching too much onto MT territory.
As for Critical Defence, I think the sweet spot for a champ would be around 3k crit defence deep traited (and 2 crit relics) and hedge up (possibly a little more with hedge up). Right now, the Critical Defence numbers we are getting from traits and skills are indeed a little pathetic. Even captains have more critical defence built in (untraited) than champs.
Added: If you're going to post 'hurr durr secondary roll', don't bother. The devs gave champs the ability to be a tank if they wanted.
Guardians have a dps trait line, yet our dps sucks... no problem going OP in small instances, but not in raids and Champs should not be raid tanks. Ever. They were never meant to be, just as Guards were never meant to be a real dps class... deal with it, this game is going more casual with every Update anyway, we don't need more changes that cater to the easymode crowd...
This would be like making a guard do the dps of a champion in overpower stance, or a warden doing the dps of a hunter in his ranged stance. I give this a big no thanks, it would be silly if a champ could tank like a guard, and silly if a guard could dps like a champ!
we don't need more changes that cater to the easymode crowd...
That's funny; people want guardians to tank for them because it is easymode. Easymode for the guard, and easymode for the rest of the group because it lets them faceroll to victory.
That's funny; people want guardians to tank for them because it is easymode. Easymode for the guard, and easymode for the rest of the group because it lets them faceroll to victory.
doing PUG Kalbak raids a lot, I can tell you, Guardian is NOT easymode... you wouldn't believe how many Guards out there just don't know how to tank...
And obviously I meant easymode as in "one class can do it all"... that's not how the game was originally designed, you know, it's catering to the "I want everything now without effort" crowd... but then the OP is the biggest voice of that crowd, considering his opinions on raid gear, which are absolutely ridiculous...
Guardians have a dps trait line, yet our dps sucks... no problem going OP in small instances, but not in raids and Champs should not be raid tanks. Ever. They were never meant to be, just as Guards were never meant to be a real dps class... deal with it, this game is going more casual with every Update anyway, we don't need more changes that cater to the easymode crowd...
Originally Posted by Klayvax
This would be like making a guard do the dps of a champion in overpower stance, or a warden doing the dps of a hunter in his ranged stance. I give this a big no thanks, it would be silly if a champ could tank like a guard, and silly if a guard could dps like a champ!
Actually, no it wouldn't. Giving champs better morale and crit defence DOES NOT make them a better tank. It helps our survivability but it does not give us the aggro generation of a guard. A guard is still better because they have better avoidances, too. I doubt either of you have ever made a full DPS gear set like a champ has to for tanking, so I'd suggest you try that before commenting on the DPS of a guard.
So to make the comparisons easy:
Champ:
- Better DPS in DPS mode.
- Better power regen in DPS mode.
Guard:
- Better aggro in tank mode.
- Better avoidances in tank mode.
See how if you don't include my suggestion, there would be 4 bonuses of a guard over a champ instead of them being even? Not to mention that fact that even with this change guards would STILL HAVE MORE MORALE than a champ. Honestly, I think some people are just rejecting the idea as a knee-jerk reaction.
doing PUG Kalbak raids a lot, I can tell you, Guardian is NOT easymode... you wouldn't believe how many Guards out there just don't know how to tank...
And obviously I meant easymode as in "one class can do it all"... that's not how the game was originally designed, you know, it's catering to the "I want everything now without effort" crowd... but then the OP is the biggest voice of that crowd, considering his opinions on raid gear, which are absolutely ridiculous...
Wow, you still don't understand my stance on raid gear, do you? Even after all those posts explaining it. I can see why some people would need the 'are you sure you want to exit' button now.
doing PUG Kalbak raids a lot, I can tell you, Guardian is NOT easymode... you wouldn't believe how many Guards out there just don't know how to tank...
And obviously I meant easymode as in "one class can do it all"... that's not how the game was originally designed, you know, it's catering to the "I want everything now without effort" crowd... but then the OP is the biggest voice of that crowd, considering his opinions on raid gear, which are absolutely ridiculous...
Champ dps is supposed to be easymode, yet you wouldn't believe how many champs just don't know how to do it effectively in a group setting. That's a general problem in this game because it emphasizes solo play all the way to lvl cap.
But that has nothing to do with the OP. He's not asking for easy mode or for champs to be able to do all. Ideally they should be an alternative on most (not ALL encounters) to guard tanks. Obviously champs can't tank and dps at the same time, with the same traits and gear so I don't see a problem. Surely more available tanks (ie. more champs encouraged to tank) would benefit everyone as tanks are extremely scarce these days. Except bad guards ofc, who are afraid for their monopoly.
Sorry for the delay in these posts, I'm on moderator review and it usually takes 2+ days for them to actually permit them.
There have been a few people recently who are still under the delusion that asking for better morale and crit defence in champ's tank mode is equal to asking for a guard in OP (or, in one case, a DPS warden) to be the same as a champ.
Firstly, giving champs morale and crit defence doesn't, and I repeat doesn't, make them equal tanks to guards. Their morale would still be less than a guard's morale. Their aggro gen would still be less than a guard's. Their avoidances would still be less than a guard's.
Secondly, a guard in OP is still a very good DPSer, providing you are fully traited and geared, just as a champ tank needs to be. I will agree that guard power regen needs to be increased only in full DPS or at least power cost reduced but that is a completely seperate topic for a seperate thread. I made a guard entirely focused on DPS and when I finally managed to get a group who would allow me to DPS (same struggle when you're a champ offering to main tank) they were completely surprised at my DPS out put.
Hopefully we will have less confusion from people now that I've established how incorrect it is to say giving morale and crit defence will make a champ equal to a guard. If you still don't believe an OP guard is any good, try it yourself (and I mean a full kit of pure DPS gear, just as a tank champ needs a full kit of tank gear to tank). To be honest, unless you've tried both champ tanking and guard DPS (both proper, not half-assed), you really shouldn't be commenting.
I'll admit that I don't know much about champions right now. I have something to say anyways..
Originally Posted by SuaronTehMighty
But that has nothing to do with the OP. He's not asking for easy mode or for champs to be able to do all. Ideally they should be an alternative on most (not ALL encounters) to guard tanks.
That is exactly the point I don't get. It's been said (and agreed !!!) that champions can already tank 3 to 6 mans. What else is there to tank? Only endgame raids. However you said most and not all. The other issue is that champions should be good tanks.. but not as good as guardians or wardens....
Well to me it seems like that is exactly how it is right now. So what needs to change? What am I missing?
You could say about any class that this or that needs to be improved just because. But taking into account the goal of what you want to archieve with the improvement (being good tanks, being able to tank *most* content)... quite obviously nothing needs to change.
3- and 6-mans are meanignless; anyone can tank those. I can tank foundry t2 in dps gear + traits (save the last fight) if the group is good, that's how easy the content is. I was under the impression that this thread was aimed at endgame raid tanking.
Another popular MMO has 3 viable tanking classes, each with its own strengths and weaknesses that make them better suited for different encounters, but still all three viable tanks. Options are good, monopoly is bad.
And btw, while I only have a lvl 20 guard so I don't know how their potential endgame dps is, IF it is indeed far behind other classes, then it too should be brought up to par so they can contribute in a meaningful way if you find yourself with a surplus of tanks (rare as that may be). Dito wardens, but I hnc how they are faring since the update.
Last edited by SuaronTehMighty; Jun 13 2012 at 09:44 AM.
actually, no it wouldn't. Giving champs better morale and crit defence does not make them a better tank. It helps our survivability but it does not give us the aggro generation of a guard. A guard is still better because they have better avoidances, too. I doubt either of you have ever made a full dps gear set like a champ has to for tanking, so i'd suggest you try that before commenting on the dps of a guard.
So to make the comparisons easy:
Champ:
- better dps in dps mode.
- better power regen in dps mode.
Guard:
- better aggro in tank mode.
- better avoidances in tank mode.
See how if you don't include my suggestion, there would be 4 bonuses of a guard over a champ instead of them being even?
3- and 6-mans are meanignless; anyone can tank those. I can tank foundry t2 in dps gear + traits (save the last fight) if the group is good, that's how easy the content is. I was under the impression that this thread was aimed at endgame raid tanking.
Another popular MMO has 3 viable tanking classes, each with its own strengths and weaknesses that make them better suited for different encounters, but still all three viable tanks. Options are good, monopoly is bad.
And btw, while I only have a lvl 20 guard so I don't know how their potential endgame dps is, IF it is indeed far behind other classes, then it too should be brought up to par so they can contribute in a meaningful way if you find yourself with a surplus of tanks (rare as that may be). Dito wardens, but I hnc how they are faring since the update.
I don't consider myself a great guard but I was able to tank the bosses in ToO t1 in a pug group this weekend. I have around 11k physical mastery and around 14k morale both unbuffed. My DPs single target on the bosses was between 200 and 300. I am virtually certain that a blue champ is going to beat that hands down.
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