While I agree we can technically heal ourselves, I'm finding that Turbine could have done a better job with the rate we heal ourselves. I can heal my friend way more than I can heal myself... That just seems so wrong lol maybe it's just me.
Thoughts?
NO MORE LEGENDARIES - This isn't a job, it's a game.
I have no complaints about a captains ability to heal himself. You get a few different ways to do it with marks, skills, shield brother, etc. If they could heal themselves as well as they could heal others, you'd basically have a heavy armor, buffing, melee, mini who can rez in combat and summon people to locations. That would be a bit overpowered, don't you think?
Captains have a ton of different abilities so in order to offset those abilities with a few weaknesses, they lowered the DPS and made self-heals pretty small. If you're dying too much, use a sword and shield. If you're soloing, go with a two hand, shield brother your hope herald, and use your marks for healing.
My captain constantly quests 5 levels above where she is and can take on two (if I get lucky with crits, 3) mobs at once. Captains are just fine.
I have no complaints about a captains ability to heal himself. You get a few different ways to do it with marks, skills, shield brother, etc. If they could heal themselves as well as they could heal others, you'd basically have a heavy armor, buffing, melee, mini who can rez in combat and summon people to locations. That would be a bit overpowered, don't you think?
Minor nitpick here, both the RKs and Minis have in combat rezzes (although the RK lin combat rez is Lil Brudder of incombat rezzes), although I generally agree that our self healing is in a pretty good spot.
Originally Posted by Widoch
Captains have a ton of different abilities so in order to offset those abilities with a few weaknesses, they lowered the DPS and made self-heals pretty small. If you're dying too much, use a sword and shield. If you're soloing, go with a two hand, shield brother your hope herald, and use your marks for healing.
Yes, but everything is craptacular to meh, unless you trait for it.
Originally Posted by Widoch
My captain constantly quests 5 levels above where she is and can take on two (if I get lucky with crits, 3) mobs at once. Captains are just fine.
Hopefully your opinion holds when the captain hits endgame.
We're beasts on the landscape, but our DPS and tanking aspects tend to fall flat in 6 man and raid groups =/
Minor nitpick here, both the RKs and Minis have in combat rezzes (although the RK lin combat rez is Lil Brudder of incombat rezzes), although I generally agree that our self healing is in a pretty good spot.
Good point. I was thinking that captains have two (one with defeat response) where as the mini and RK have one on a cool down right? I don't have a mini or RK higher than level 8 so, I'm not sure
Yes, but everything is craptacular to meh, unless you trait for it.
Well yeah, but that's the case with a lot of different classes and their skills. Like my hunter is easily out DPSed if I don't trait right. I do see your point, it's not like our self heals are amazing. I don't really consider them so much a "self heal" as I do a "slow down the dying process" skill
Hopefully your opinion holds when the captain hits endgame.
We're beasts on the landscape, but our DPS and tanking aspects tend to fall flat in 6 man and raid groups =/
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I hope so too. I've been enjoying the captain and specifically started it for endgame content. Seems the captains in my kin are pretty happy so I'm looking forward to it.
"We're beasts on the landscape, but our DPS and tanking aspects tend to fall flat in 6 man and raid groups =/ "
Good cappies can do pretty good DPS, yourself included Maley. I am pretty fine where we are right now. I think to keep things a bit fairer with support classes, they need to nerf burgs DPS a lot...
Tanking is pretty good these days. Problem is having a group allowing a cappy to tank and being a bit more patient with allowing us to build up aggro a bit slower then a guard or warden. Plus our best tanking morale is about 14-15 K morale, which is good enough for Foundry, skirmishes T1, and even RoF. I can get morale up to 19K, but that is vit and morale stacking, which hurts our might and blocking in LoM. Plus having the bubble from 3 piece limlight is really nice for tanking. If you have a good healer, a cappy can tank any 6 man instance out there right now. That is much better then we used to be. I think a properly traited cappy could also tank Lightening T2. Holding aggro may be impossible, but it would be fun to try
While I agree we can technically heal ourselves, I'm finding that Turbine could have done a better job with the rate we heal ourselves. I can heal my friend way more than I can heal myself... That just seems so wrong lol maybe it's just me.
Thoughts?
Our self-healing is pretty limited. You can argue rather that's good or not - but it does add more strategy to playing Captain. Words of Courage used to be usuable on ourselves in-fact - but it made us horribly OP and we were soloing everything. So they changed it to group-member only.
If you find yourself in a fight where it's hard for you to keep yourself alive - I would suggest switching to Revealing Mark, grab the Muster Courage legacy, and boost both your Morale and In-Combat-Morale and always carry a healthy stock of morale potions on you and use your Hope Banner. This should fix the problem. At least it did mine.
Tanking is pretty good these days. Problem is having a group allowing a cappy to tank and being a bit more patient with allowing us to build up aggro a bit slower then a guard or warden. Plus our best tanking morale is about 14-15 K morale, which is good enough for Foundry, skirmishes T1, and even RoF. I can get morale up to 19K, but that is vit and morale stacking, which hurts our might and blocking in LoM. Plus having the bubble from 3 piece limlight is really nice for tanking. If you have a good healer, a cappy can tank any 6 man instance out there right now. That is much better then we used to be. I think a properly traited cappy could also tank Lightening T2. Holding aggro may be impossible, but it would be fun to try
ToO Lit T2 might actually work out, provided the captain has both a tanking emblem, and focuses solely on threat. With the way the skills go, the captain might produce enough threat to keep the boss's agro locked down between the forced taunts.
ToO Lit T2 might actually work out, provided the captain has both a tanking emblem, and focuses solely on threat. With the way the skills go, the captain might produce enough threat to keep the boss's agro locked down between the forced taunts.
I don't know how easy it would be. I've taken a 14k static shock in T1 with maxed tact mit. With just under 17k buffed, that was too much too fast for my healers. I think I had some steam tiered up on me though.
Threat wise, we just need generous Ebbs and provokes is all.
I think we almost have too many heals. I solo traited HoH because I hate having to retrait for instances and I can take on six or seven mobs at once. Once I was duoing with a Hunter and I began a fight against ten mobs with half morale, then found myself at full morale when it ended. He was speechless.
I think we almost have too many heals. I solo traited HoH because I hate having to retrait for instances and I can take on six or seven mobs at once. Once I was duoing with a Hunter and I began a fight against ten mobs with half morale, then found myself at full morale when it ended. He was speechless.
Multiple softish targets = captain self healing heaven. I often pull a bunch, just because with PA targets @ 4 and a bunch of mobs I'm pretty much guaranteed a crit. With Dagor + Perseverence set, this means a RC extremely often (and if things are going well, routing cry(for stun)/war cry slipped in). Self healing is at its worst against higher than character level single targets with high levels of mitigations/avoidances...
Wouldn't say we have too many heals, I think we are doing OK. Lots of the overpowering RC stuff is heavily gear/LI dependant...
I think we almost have too many heals. I solo traited HoH because I hate having to retrait for instances and I can take on six or seven mobs at once. Once I was duoing with a Hunter and I began a fight against ten mobs with half morale, then found myself at full morale when it ended. He was speechless.
I think our self-healing is about right - though I woudn't mind an extra CD we could burn to help us out in emergencies. That would be useful.
after about 5 minutes it feels like someone else is healing you.
it does make your bathing suit area tickle.
"I am always serious; I am never serious." -Me
"I make the most outrageous and exaggerated statements of any man to ever live, has ever lived, or that will ever live." -Me
Hopefully your opinion holds when the captain hits endgame.
We're beasts on the landscape, but our DPS and tanking aspects tend to fall flat in 6 man and raid groups =/
I don't tank (well not unless something has gone horrible wrong) but I disagree with the DPS part of the statement. I bring a good amount of healing and a good amount of DPS to a 6-man. Is it as much raw dps as my RK? No. Is it as much healing as my Mini? No. But both are meaningful.
More importantly, counting MY dps contribution is only half of the total -- mix in the DPS I create off of other members and the number is a lot higher. Run an instance, and calculate the x% of what the champ and RK did that you facilitated. Also figure out what % of the healer's DPS and buffing were possible because they were spending less time healing.
The DPS number goes up with all of that factored in. Now, add up the hard to numerically value contribution of rezzing, back-up tanking, etc.
Informed by Science, Inspired by Art
RK/Mini/Capt/Hnt/Champ -- Raiding on Brandywine and Meneldor.
I don't tank (well not unless something has gone horrible wrong) but I disagree with the DPS part of the statement. I bring a good amount of healing and a good amount of DPS to a 6-man. Is it as much raw dps as my RK? No. Is it as much healing as my Mini? No. But both are meaningful.
More importantly, counting MY dps contribution is only half of the total -- mix in the DPS I create off of other members and the number is a lot higher. Run an instance, and calculate the x% of what the champ and RK did that you facilitated. Also figure out what % of the healer's DPS and buffing were possible because they were spending less time healing.
The DPS number goes up with all of that factored in. Now, add up the hard to numerically value contribution of rezzing, back-up tanking, etc.
Now this is my kind of post.
Exactly!
Just because something is not the "best" doesn't mean it's not meaningful. The healing and DPS a Captain brings to any group is of benefit. And when you factor in all the extra buffs and emergency buffers we bring - we are deffinitely a force in any group. And while our presence on the battlefield is somewhat "unspoken" and not easily seen at times, it's still there - and there is a reason so many groups love to have at least one Captain along for the ride.
As another poster pointed out earlier - we aren't meant to be in the "spotlight" and wowing people with the best DPS or Healing numbers. We contribute on a more discreet strategic level, like the General behind the lines ensuring the success of his army through intelligent decesion-making and providing essential support where it is needed.
I think our self healing is in a fairly good spot atm.
That said, I wouldn't say no to a buff to Strength from Within.
Originally Posted by Fortinobrand
I don't tank (well not unless something has gone horrible wrong) but I disagree with the DPS part of the statement. I bring a good amount of healing and a good amount of DPS to a 6-man. Is it as much raw dps as my RK? No. Is it as much healing as my Mini? No. But both are meaningful.
More importantly, counting MY dps contribution is only half of the total -- mix in the DPS I create off of other members and the number is a lot higher. Run an instance, and calculate the x% of what the champ and RK did that you facilitated. Also figure out what % of the healer's DPS and buffing were possible because they were spending less time healing.
The DPS number goes up with all of that factored in. Now, add up the hard to numerically value contribution of rezzing, back-up tanking, etc.
While this is very true, I doubt many of the champs and hunters are going to share their DPS numbers with us, even though they love having us in the group.
Same goes for the extra healing produced via crit buff from the healers.
Last edited by Almagnus1; May 29 2012 at 05:44 PM.
The place in which our self healing issue become glaringly obvious is the moors.
After you see an RK tank a raid you will start asking, why do I struggle with 4 people on me as a heavy armor class when a light armor class can heal through 12 people.
Of course maybe 1 of you plays actively in the moors so this appears to be a non-issue.
The place in which our self healing issue become glaringly obvious is the moors.
After you see an RK tank a raid you will start asking, why do I struggle with 4 people on me as a heavy armor class when a light armor class can heal through 12 people.
Of course maybe 1 of you plays actively in the moors so this appears to be a non-issue.
I play in the moors...but only on my RK, not cappy, so yeah good point. However, if there is an example of a class that must be balanced to the main PvE game and not the PvMP side game, it's the cappy. Reshaping the cappy for PvMP would seriously mess with the PvE balance, since it seems it would either become a single-target champ with heals, or a warspeech minstrel in heavy armour.
I think if we were to step back and start LotRO fresh, but from a PvMP focus, cappy wouldn't be likely to make the cut for classes to be developed.
Informed by Science, Inspired by Art
RK/Mini/Capt/Hnt/Champ -- Raiding on Brandywine and Meneldor.
I play in the moors...but only on my RK, not cappy, so yeah good point. However, if there is an example of a class that must be balanced to the main PvE game and not the PvMP side game, it's the cappy. Reshaping the cappy for PvMP would seriously mess with the PvE balance, since it seems it would either become a single-target champ with heals, or a warspeech minstrel in heavy armour.
I think if we were to step back and start LotRO fresh, but from a PvMP focus, cappy wouldn't be likely to make the cut for classes to be developed.
Where I feel lacking in the 'Moors is more with DPS than it is with healing.
What are the opinions from the other PvMP captains?
I've felt captains are underwhelming in the moors. DPS is pretty lackluster with no ranged to speak of and targets often change too quickly to apply marks unless you have 2y.
Healing is (IMO) our strongest ability, but is not good enough to heal through raid damage like minstrels or rk's. I'm not really asking for that... Captains shine in fights of 12 or less but decrease in effectiveness after that.
As far as utility, we have a 4 target stun on a long cooldown (requiring a de) and a group-wide speed boost (awesome skill).
There's also SOTD and in-combat res's, but the cooldowns for those are pretty outrageous.
I think most captains tend to agree the best thing captains do (grouped) in the moors is spam rally cry to counteract the warleader banners, and put SOTD on a healer. Our damage is reasonable but the problem is no creep is going to stand still and let you beat on them, and captains don't have the tools to counteract that.
Not saying captains are bad... Just that as the numbers increase potency decreases. To be fair, captains are one of the few actually balanced classes in the moors. Creeps will whine about last stand, but it's really our only 'oh ####' skill, and its a 15m cd.
Where I feel lacking in the 'Moors is more with DPS than it is with healing.
What are the opinions from the other PvMP captains?
I don't think we are designed very well, but our healing spec is rather effective.
LTC:
Soloing is largely based on our gimmicky lifesteal mechanic from revealing mark. It's basically required for 1v1's but our low damage output and high power costs make soloing against healing classes near impossible. We also have the WORST gap closer of any of the melee classes, the 5-perservearance set does not help because 5s is not enough slow immunity and store brands are lame.
Additionally our slow is poorly designed, it has a 20s CD and if that is B/P/E'd (very likely to happen vs. Spiders/BA's which are who you need it against) you have to wait that out to reapply.
So yeah... against melee classes we are pretty well off, against ranged it's rough, when I play my BA I know a captain is a free kill. IMO if you run LtC in a group you are doing it wrong considering how much healing has scaled up and how easily we are kited as a class.
HoH:
This became extremely useful when U6 came around, audacity made healers basically OP. Additionally with the buff to defiler flies using Song brother is almost mandatory against them without it you will be at zero power too fast. I never raid, but almost exclusively small group. However I know how well 6s RC scales in raids, where NPC's die very fast to AOEs.
We also make excellent duo-partners like this with instant cast damage dealing classes (RK, Champ, Minstrel) specifically RK's. Here I like to use shield brother (so long as power allows) and even an RK can take hits from 7-8 creeps before needing a bubble when all your HoTs are rolling with Revealing mark. This is where our self healing issue arises, we can keep other targets up extremely well, but MC + VS is not enough to keep us alive when 3-4 creeps are on us.
Our Damage Reduction abilities are also extremely strong since they are additive with audacity and we are extremely hard to shut down since we have no inductions. Our ability to kite and heal at 100% effectiveness is our strong point, although RK's can do that now as well (albeit only for 10s out of every minute). Basically I always run SotD-FB-HoH in the moors only swapping MC in and out depending if I'm the only healer in the group or not. If you are duo and are able to run song brother exclusively then using IDOME is ok, otherwise I would never use it in the moors. I always run 2-yellow for revealing mark CD since it's such an important part of our healing.
LoM:
I've never tried this in the moors, but it seems like you'd have to give up too much to gain too little.
i think we are the best designed class in any MMO i have played! (pve wise)
to each thier own, i guess!
ps- great screen name. i feel your pain; i cant ride a bike.
"I am always serious; I am never serious." -Me
"I make the most outrageous and exaggerated statements of any man to ever live, has ever lived, or that will ever live." -Me
My captain is my solo lg-rep grinder. It's soo easy putting blademaster on the dummy herald to get the fellowship inspire heals and power. Mark on the tree and keeping the armour buff. Often i don't even need to pop a potion, depending on the crits with devestating blow. The herald can give heals too. Self heal isn't a problem, power consumption often is.
For group encounters the mark alone is enough to do the most self healing i need. Just keep bashing.
I don't even want to be a buffing healing tank. I don't want lff 5 dps for whatever, making me too lazy to have a proper tank/heal/cc/dps setup. If a healer takes too much attention (or a tank attracts too less), i won't like the fight when it's still manageble. I'd rather play age 3 games then and never fail. When in trouble just rethink your tactics and a cappy can make things succeed.
For ettens, cappies are about the same solo as warleaders. So if you want to play solo ettens, just accept or reroll. I surely don't want a captain to be changed into a blastercanon fotm surreal bridge-ping-pong ranged king. Just keep captain a groupclass with a for creeps most annoying skills and i'm happy.
If everything tastes the same, nothing tastes good.
If everything tastes the same, nothing tastes good.
Nice quote.
Variety is the spice of life as they say, and that applies to video games too. It's cool that Captains have their own way of doing things, and I would hate to see that change. The uniqueness of this class has always been one of its best qualities.
I too would like to see Strength from Within detached from Muster Courage. MC has a long enough cool down that making sure it's available for use on fears (when content dictates) pretty much removes the self-heal aspect in a fair amount of content. Use it to heal yourself, and suffer the wrath of a group leader when the group fear debuffs hit and you can't clear them.
It just seems sort of like it was a random place to put it...I think a bit more thought could go into that type of enhancement of a skill.
I too would like to see Strength from Within detached from Muster Courage. MC has a long enough cool down that making sure it's available for use on fears (when content dictates) pretty much removes the self-heal aspect in a fair amount of content. Use it to heal yourself, and suffer the wrath of a group leader when the group fear debuffs hit and you can't clear them.
It just seems sort of like it was a random place to put it...I think a bit more thought could go into that type of enhancement of a skill.
Not trying to defend why SfW is on MC, but if you look at it as restoring your morale by mustering your courage from drawing on strength within, you see the lore reason why stuff is where it is.
Gameplay wise, totally agree it's in a weird spot.
I too would like to see Strength from Within detached from Muster Courage. MC has a long enough cool down that making sure it's available for use on fears (when content dictates) pretty much removes the self-heal aspect in a fair amount of content. Use it to heal yourself, and suffer the wrath of a group leader when the group fear debuffs hit and you can't clear them.
It just seems sort of like it was a random place to put it...I think a bit more thought could go into that type of enhancement of a skill.
If any group leader ever gave me "wrath" over something like that I'd explain to him what a fear pot is and tell him to get off my back
Besides, often times fears come in too fast for your Muster Courage to keep up anyways, even if you try to save it.
That being said though I wouldn't have any problem with a change like this. Sounds reasonable.
i think we are the best designed class in any MMO i have played! (pve wise)
to each thier own, i guess!
ps- great screen name. i feel your pain; i cant ride a bike.
Yes, it was regarding pvp, although pve as well. While our self healing is more than adequate for pve, there are other shortcomings we have. In our healing spec we are completely outclassed by minstrels, with them having double our healing output and similar if not better buffs. RK's actually have quite a few buffs as well (almost as many as us) but they are more defensively tailored which is not really all that useful for ToO so they are often overlooked.
In our damage spec we are behind pretty much everyone except minstrels and maybe guards, again this does nothing to improve our buffs so a healing minstrel can still outbuff us. Meanwhile burgs (one of the top four if not the highest dps) bring similar amounts utility while having more than double our dps output.
I can't really come up with an explanation for this, other than we have tons of power restore abilities, of which only really RC is used in pve. If this is the reason I really think that they should remove them and just give classes the ability to manage their own power by themselves if played correctly.
Originally Posted by Mirte
For ettens, cappies are about the same solo as warleaders. So if you want to play solo ettens, just accept or reroll. I surely don't want a captain to be changed into a blastercanon fotm surreal bridge-ping-pong ranged king. Just keep captain a groupclass with a for creeps most annoying skills and i'm happy.
If everything tastes the same, nothing tastes good.
Not really, solo warleaders can use all of their healing abilities on themselves, so they can basically outlast a captain with their lower power costs.
I'm not asking to be changed into a ranged dps class (lol), just that our damage is scaled in relation to our ridiculous power costs, and give us the ability to stick to a target in pvp. Frankly a 25% slow doesn't deserve a 20s cooldown.
The issue I can see with scaling our damage too high is making revealing mark into a god-mode ability. So the best way to fix this is buff our DoTs. We have three, I would start with BoE, change it from a group wide buff with a chance to proc into just a DoT that applies whenever we BoE. Next buff it's damage, 1000 light damage every 5 should do it.
Oh yeah and lower the damn CD on Cutting attack.
Originally Posted by Lupini
I too would like to see Strength from Within detached from Muster Courage. MC has a long enough cool down that making sure it's available for use on fears (when content dictates) pretty much removes the self-heal aspect in a fair amount of content. Use it to heal yourself, and suffer the wrath of a group leader when the group fear debuffs hit and you can't clear them.
It just seems sort of like it was a random place to put it...I think a bit more thought could go into that type of enhancement of a skill.
I just think that it doesn't fit in with the HoH toolkit, every other skill is group oriented, the change I would make is to make it a group wide heal instead of a self only heal.
Last edited by NeedlesslyLargeRod; Jun 01 2012 at 10:49 AM.
oh, you were talking design in regards to our self healing. ill agree its not the best design!
our buffs are falling behind, but that does not change how i feel about the initial (or current) design of capns. thats more a relavtive change, than it is our deficiency.
least, thats how i see it.
"I am always serious; I am never serious." -Me
"I make the most outrageous and exaggerated statements of any man to ever live, has ever lived, or that will ever live." -Me
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Originally Posted by EvAmy
Informed by Science, Inspired by Art
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