Thread: Instances scaled

I would love to see BG in ANGMAR to be scale to 75, Alot of people don't even know about it and never done it. I don't think the classic rift raid should be scale because it just to amazing and epic the way it is, I would love to see it scale but don't want it to be ruin if Turbine mess up like Fornost. I loved Fornost but loot is horrible. What are ya thoughts? What instances you think turbine should scale?

Carn Dum!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Ceremony

I would love to see BG in ANGMAR to be scale to 75, Alot of people don't even know about it and never done it. I don't think the classic rift raid should be scale because it just to amazing and epic the way it is, I would love to see it scale but don't want it to be ruin if Turbine mess up like Fornost. I loved Fornost but loot is horrible. What are ya thoughts? What instances you think turbine should scale?

I used to love running Barad Gularan when it was on level. Even going through it higher up to finish deeds was fun. The mechanics of the final boss fight make it quite interesting. If I were to have some instances scale then I would love to see:

Barad Gularan
Carn Dum
Urugarth

Sword Halls of Dol Guldur
Warg Pens of Dol Guldur
Dungeons of Dul Guldur
Sammath Gul
Barad Guldur

Maybe some of the Moria instaces. Actually all of them. I can't really think of an instance that I did not enjoy. lol. Scale them all! As long as it was done properly I think it could be quite fun to re-visit them. DN (Lothlorien Raid in Moria) was an amazing Raid and still is. Imagine it scaled to 75? Fun stuff!!!

EDIT: I lied. The last boss in Sixteenth Hall was a pain if you were doing the challenge to not kill any of those little bugs. ARGHHH! How I hated those bugs. He he.

CD, Urugarth, GA, Mirkwood instances, moria instances, all/most unscaled, tbh. Maybe not some raids, but a lot of them.
However, I wonder if scaling would do much. GB is scaled, and in my memory, I've never seen a 75 group playing it.
I feel that at some point, CD, and maybe Urugarth will be split up by Turbine, however. I think they should stay as they are as relics of an earlier type of instances, but who knows what will happen?

Originally Posted by Thronst

CD, Urugarth, GA, Mirkwood instances, moria instances, all/most unscaled, tbh. Maybe not some raids, but a lot of them.
However, I wonder if scaling would do much. GB is scaled, and in my memory, I've never seen a 75 group playing it.
I feel that at some point, CD, and maybe Urugarth will be split up by Turbine, however. I think they should stay as they are as relics of an earlier type of instances, but who knows what will happen?

Well, before RoI there were lots of groups doing GB. It was one of the main ways to get Superior 4th Marks. That and Library/School runs. Do you see anyone running Library/School anymore? Nope. He he. I have not seen a posting for them since the Isen instances came around. Maybe even before that. I run them once in a while solo just for fun. They don't take too long and there is a chance at some good loot (stat tomes, symbol, etc.).

Originally Posted by Thronst

d do much. GB is scaled, and in my memory, I've never seen a 75 group playing it.

Wanna know why? It's because at level 65, do you know what we had to do for our initial raid gear? Maybe a handful of Annuminas runs/Helegrod dailies, and the GB Box runs GB Box runs GB box runs SCH/LIB Dailies GB Box runs GB box runs GB box runs.

And then, after we finally got our initial raidgear, level cap gets released and we're now level 75.

You know what we get to do after that? GB BOX RUNS AND SCHLIB DAILIES ALL OVER AGAIN YAY!!!!

And the initial people that got to level 75 got their armour.
And they updated the skirmish mark system.

And we no longer had to run those again!


And this is why no one who has had to do this will run those instances again.

scale all INI`s in Angmar and Moria

Originally Posted by keikii

And this is why no one who has had to do this will run those instances again.

Speak for yourself... I still like doing School and Library on a regular basis. Mind you they are simple enough to just solo now, but they are still fun to do. I do School/Library solo on my Warden in my normal rotation of instances. If I am short on cash I will solo Inn of the Forsaken on Tier 1 and then on Tier 2 for a quick handful of gold.

Just because the older instances are not as profitable does not mean people don't run them. I still see groups forming up for things like the original Rift instance, Barad Gularan (Yes, Gularan, not Guldur), and a couple other odd balls here and there. Depends on what people feel like doing I guess. Deed Hunters will always be looking to complete instances whether they get anything other then deeds or not.

Tomb of Elendil :P

Originally Posted by keikii

Wanna know why? It's because at level 65, do you know what we had to do for our initial raid gear? Maybe a handful of Annuminas runs/Helegrod dailies, and the GB Box runs GB Box runs GB box runs SCH/LIB Dailies GB Box runs GB box runs GB box runs.

And then, after we finally got our initial raidgear, level cap gets released and we're now level 75.

You know what we get to do after that? GB BOX RUNS AND SCHLIB DAILIES ALL OVER AGAIN YAY!!!!

And the initial people that got to level 75 got their armour.
And they updated the skirmish mark system.

And we no longer had to run those again!


And this is why no one who has had to do this will run those instances again.

hmm. So the new mark system made people not have to do these instances? (only started in January, so the mark system was already as it is) Makes sense. Nobody does Helegrod either, tbh, I guess for the same reason. As it is, I think only Mirkwood and on is untouched by skirmish vendors, and I expect that stuff will eventually make its way in, though I personally think too much is in as it is. I like non-linear gameplay, but you shouldn't allow people to just pay some marks and get all this top-tier gear for their level. I mean, the Helegrod set is VERY good for someone in their mid-late 40s, remaining a good set up until the mid-60s at least.
I personally didn't develop a big interest in instances and raids until I hit the cap and realised it was my only way to further develop my player. I don't think raid armour should be available in any way other than by running the raids, though I guess Turbine takes a different policy to the community.
Turbine's current policy makes any instances other than draigh/Isen/ROF redundant for a 75, with the exception of maybe Stoneheight for relic-grinding. That's not to say people don't run them or that there's no point in running them, but they don't pay out well enough for people. I appreciate what Turbine tried to do for Fornost, but they failed in not setting the rewards well enough. It just isn't worth doing. For meds, people will rather do foundry 10 times a day. I think that endgame variety should be improved. People always say "I can't wait till I'm 75", but it's a false image, being a 75. it's monotonous. When a raid gets together, it's good. The other 95% of the time, it's running the same instance over and over, or grinding something or other to get better armour. It's not as fun as it should be. It's this reason why I support scaling of as many instances as can be scaled without damaging the overall gameplay. Rewards should be decent, too. There's only so much that can be done, but at the very least, high-tier relics and runes.

The one and only releveant reason why there is no heavy rotation of the old scalables is their rewards return. You get thrown to death with seals and medallions even from isengard 3-mans on T1. The classic instances give you what, a measly 6 seals? And only the 6-mans, and then only when noone messes up the challenge. We see what happened with Fornost.. people run it once or twice, and then realize that it doesnt give them a good time/reward investment... besides being actually somewhat difficult.

The vastly better loot quality of the Isengard T2 runs is only the last nail in the coffin. And they can drop all the store shinies (tomes, crystals etc.) just as well.

That being said, scaling all instances wouldnt really be to good. One can actually have too much content, and it siphons off even more manpowr from actually creating new content.

Originally Posted by keikii

And this is why no one who has had to do this will run those instances again.

Uh... scary... you know I actually miss sch/lib...

Well, not sch/lib themselves. (Or maybe a little.)

An instance that could be completed with any class composition imagineable. And I mean *any*. This pool of different experiences was possibly one of the reasons to remain sane after 145th run Another one was the fact you didn't have to spam for healer/tank ^^

Perfect kind of instance for IF as well - no worrries about class composition, no great gear required, just click & play when you are in no mood for anything "serious". Heck, give sch/lib small, but meaningful reward (something related to seals grind for example?) and I will actually queue for it from time to time

I don't think I would want CD or urg scale, it's already long as it is at lvl 50 lol. I do would love to see the Moria instances scaled. Specially The watcher raid, that would be one interesting run.

People who don't run content would always find excuses to not run content: not able to find group, no good reward so no reason to run, no time, no access to "raid" gear so shunned by "elitists", yada yada. What else have we not heard? They will never admit it's just their own lack of interest and/or skill.

The Annuminas cluster have always had the same reward structure as the GB cluster, but how many people do you see running Annuminas back when S3Ms/S4Ms were relevant? How about Halls of Night/Forsaken Inn compared to Sch/Lib? How about Helegrod compared to skirm raids?

Even if Turbine scaled everything, people would still just farm Grand Stairs, or whichever other instance has the best time/payout ratio.

"Scaling" is not the magic solution to get people to do things. Players do who want to experience those instances have always had the option to launch the instances and just go in alone or with other group enthusiasts. It's not like there are level cap to those instances.

Please reserve dev time and resources for new content.

The only instance I can see being scaled is Barad Gularan tbh. The rest no one would ever bother with as they're too long and people wouldn't be willing to do them. BG is really fast right as it is, and also has some interesting mechanics with the boss fight.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

Even if Turbine scaled everything, people would still just farm Grand Stairs, or whichever other instance has the best time/payout ratio.

Correct. People will always pick the best time/payout reward.

IMHO - The purpose of Instance Finder is to get people into less desirable instances. You get the bonus when you let Instance Finder pick an Instance for you. Instance Finder is not a Group Finder. A Group Finder would reward us for having tool build our groups.

Thanks to Instance Finder, it makes sense to scale these older instances. The 50% bonus will cover up a lot of the time, difficulty, risk and reward issues.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

Correct. People will always pick the best time/payout reward.
...


Thanks to Instance Finder, it makes sense to scale these older instances. The 50% bonus will cover up a lot of the time, difficulty, risk and reward issues.

Now if only the IF bonus applied to seals.

The rewards from playing scaled instances HAVE to be scaled to current end-game instances in order to get more people to play them.

Once people found out there was little reward for going through fornost, PUG groups almost completely dropped off (and it's still brand new!)

GB and Annuminas and Sch/Lib runs were popular because they all had the same reward (S3M, S4M) for completing them end-game. But a 30 minute foundry run gets you more Medallions and Seals than an Ost Elendil run, even though they're both level 75 instances.

If not the same, at least dramatically increase the reward for doing these instances. I love Fornost, and I love some of the older instances (OE, Sch/Lib, etc), but there's almost no incentive to run them

I'm disappointed that Turbine didn't scale the Agamaur Instances in the Lone-lands. It's such a great area to adventure in. Hopefully they will continue on and instance scale most in Angmar, Mines of Moria and beyond.

Reading the recent Developer Dairy, Turbine's goal is to create 30 - 60 min instances on the whole, something which I think personally is a great idea. To that end when/if they update and instance scale Urugarth, Carn Dum and the like they'll break them up into a number of smaller instances; just like they've done for Fornost. I love Fornost, and it's great to go back in and adventure there again, but I do think Turbine have to do a better job at tweaking the time/reward balance. If not done, people will - as has already been said - just farm the ones with the best ratio.

As much as I love the old instances, scalling them to 75+ is a waste of dev time.

Yes, I think everyone should have a chance to experiment these instances. But time is money and money should be put into new content, especially when there's not an abundance of funds.

Revamped/rescaled content is still old content.

After the first week or two very few people go in there (especially if the current trend of little/no/sub-par rewards continues). As examples to back this up:

- Fornost - after the first week no one goes in anymore. As predicted, folks went in once/twice, got the deeds done and Au Revoir. Others like me didn't even get the deeds done: I didn't have time to play much that first week and after that no one was running it anymore.

- Helegrod, Annuminas and GB - These were run back at 65 because of the S3M they awarded and folks wanted them for gear. Occasionally you have a group here and there for a few of the rares in Hele giants but... That's it.

It's not the answer folks like to hear but it's the truth: it's a waste of developer's time and effort.

PS: BG and the Udunion fight are still epic

Personally I see no reason why EVERY instance shouldn't be scaled to end game.... I'm not suggesting the loot drops should be scaled, but up the difficulty and reward seals/meds accordingly. This way more instances for peeps to run for seals/meds before server resets.

Then everyone, no matter what level, has motivation to run any instance on level.

Much less worry about - oh noes, no end game content!

Originally Posted by Ferthcott

Uh... scary... you know I actually miss sch/lib...

Well, not sch/lib themselves. (Or maybe a little.)

An instance that could be completed with any class composition imagineable. And I mean *any*. This pool of different experiences was possibly one of the reasons to remain sane after 145th run Another one was the fact you didn't have to spam for healer/tank ^^

Perfect kind of instance for IF as well - no worrries about class composition, no great gear required, just click & play when you are in no mood for anything "serious". Heck, give sch/lib small, but meaningful reward (something related to seals grind for example?) and I will actually queue for it from time to time

This is what I really liked about school/library, you just needed 3 warm bodies and off you went. No, it didn't always complete quickly with some of those, but that made it interesting. IMO 3 mans should be flexible on classes. IotF is interesting, but the fact that you need specific group makeup to get the challenge limited its replayability.

I hope they don't touch CD and Uru, or at least keep access to the classic version as an option; these are still some of my favorite instances and to see it cut up and bastardized would bring them harsh criticism.

Originally Posted by Thronst

However, I wonder if scaling would do much. GB is scaled, and in my memory, I've never seen a 75 group playing it.

75 groups run GB fairly often on Windfola. The loot sucks but it's not unusual to get people together to run it for a challenge.

Originally Posted by Thronst

I feel that at some point, CD, and maybe Urugarth will be split up by Turbine, however. I think they should stay as they are as relics of an earlier type of instances, but who knows what will happen?

The problem with keeping the classic instances at the same level in perpetuity is that they're rarely run by people who will see them in their best light. Running through CD and Uru with a couple of 75's dragging along a few level appropriate toons is bad for the game. It's bad for immersion. Watching trolls that would scare the #### out of a moderately geared 50 just fall over when a 75 champ or RK looks at them funny takes away the value of the content.

The real problem with tiered content is that it makes the real monsters in the game, the players, too strong against the game world and the havoc they wreak becomes boring and tedious.

Originally Posted by Crell_1

Tomb of Elendil :P

Hehe still my favorite Evendim Instance lol.

Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel

PS: BG and the Udunion fight are still epic

Plus Udunion housing item are amazing.