Thread: The Ability to Swim Underwater

Originally Posted by bastardoGrande

Sorry to bust your bubble but our universe is perfectly based on Pi.
Why do you think its infinite, like a perfect spehere? Why do you think people call it 'sacred geometry' and most people on our planet are woreshiping symbols and concept based on that 'geometry'?

Well the Universe you live in may be based on pi, but the one I live in is based on e. Plus I am not sure my Universe is infinite, I only know it is unbounded, and is very very flat.

When I said base pi I was talking about number bases, much like humans usually work in base 10 and computers work in base 2. Plus I have never really done anthing in base pi, but I have worked with base e. Yea I know that there is some kind of wierd relationship between e and pi, but I never really looked into it.

Originally Posted by Moejo

WHOA! Are you trying to kill us all?!? One more step and you would've summoned Cthulu to destroy the planet.

Dang, I'm like a kid with a loaded gun.

Originally Posted by whheydt

Not a problem.

Now to extend it for those playing at home (I think you'll see precisely what I on about), take a piece of paper and crumple it up. Now partially spread it out, but not so it is smooth or flat. The uneven surface is still just as much 2D as when it was nice and flat and smooth, but it takes a z-axis to describe points on that--2D--surface.

When people say, "But LoTRO locs give a Z value, the game *must* be 3D!", that is what they're not taking into account.

LoTRO is a 2D game, but it isn't FLAT.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

this pretty much says it best.

other points....
the game is NOT created as a 3d sphere, it is created as a 2d surface.

1. nothing in the real world being 2d, this is true, but this is virtual reality. computer modeling CAN represent 2d.

2. 1/infinity is 0? Really?!? Better recheck with your course instructor(s).
It is so close to 0 as to be statically insignificant in most everyday applications, but far from the mathematical fact that is is presented as. <edit to remove possible perception of personal attacks, sorry about that>

3. a point in mathematics is able to be located but not defined as to size. a point is defined as the intersection of two lines, a line defined as the intersection of two planes. NEVER is the size (height, width, length) of a plane, line, or point given or determined other than in terms of infinity.

the location of a point can be determined when any of the following intersect: two lines, a plane and a line, a plane and a sphere (barely touching, but not going THROUGH - that would be a circle), a line and a sphere touching (if the line goes through the sphere, it would be 2 points). These points are able to be located, but not defined as to size.

in other words, a point can be as big or small as we wish to imagine it.



LORE
1. the Great Eagles rule the air. They do not suffer us ordinary mortals to travel upon them except in extraordinary circumstances (such as returning a debt, or after proving worthy).

2. Ulmo, one of the Valar, rules the seas and waters of Middle Earth, and has not yet turned a blind eye to us. His Maiar (some would call them water-nymphs) still serve him, and we meet a few in-game. Goldberry is supposedly one, as is the red maid and the blue (gwendith [sp]).
As this is the case, there is no real point to underwater travel and exploration, as no baddies should be present in water, as it is still protected, except in isolated cases such as garth agarwen, carn dum, and moria especially.

as these things were not thought of as needed originally, there was no need to include a true 3d structure to permit flying or swimming. (as much as I personally would have LOVED to fly straight instead of simply have a loading screen at that one particular quest conclusion <sigh> )


GAME:
I know much of the game world is 2d designed, yeah it has x,y,z axis, but those only define a point upon the paper/ plane as it were. there is no going over/under what is built in as the surface.

however; Moria... Moria was done differently. They claimed any surface you can get to you can stand on, above, below, whatever. I do not know what changes they made to the engine to do this, or if they just bent it a little bit.

Originally Posted by Pdt_the_Confused

the game is NOT created as a 3d sphere, it is created as a 2d surface.

This is true of the terrain, but they do have 3D physics - you can fall, and your Z coordinate will change as you do. DDO uses a variant of this game engine, and they allow navigation while you fall (to support "feather fall"). They obviously disengage pathing (so you're not constrained by pathing on the ground below) and allow a modest XY plane movement as your Z axis position drops toward the ground below.

Moria... Moria was done differently. They claimed any surface you can get to you can stand on, above, below, whatever. I do not know what changes they made to the engine to do this, or if they just bent it a little bit.

They added a dual height map tech with Moria that allows them to specify both a ceiling and floor for any given point in the XY plane. Before that, doing "ceilings" was much trickier for the world builders.

Khafar

Originally Posted by Haunt123

It would not be zero. The space a point takes up is undefined, thus making the SA undefined as well.

But that is clearly not the case, as you said. If you read the rest of my post, I mentioned that perfect spheres don't exist in the physical world (Perfect curves don't either). Any sphere you take may seem to be curved, but if you magnify it by an amount not yet possible by our current technology, you will notice that it is not curved. The surface is jagged.

So, since the sphere you take clearly has sides​, it is not a sphere.

Further evidence that curves don't exist is, if a curved object comes in contact with another object, the number of points touching the object are (1/infinity), which is, undefined. This is not possible physically.

ok, this post does not make much sense. you are trying to mix the physical and the mathematical abstract worlds. physically, none of the arguments apply because this whole post is based on things in a computer generated 2d world. Mathematically, if two curves, or rather change that up.. 2 spheres the same size, each with a plane intersecting it so as to form 2 circles the same size, now move them so the circles are perfectly touching one another, superimposed you might say. there you have your curve touching another curve with an infinite number of points in common. Mathematically.

Originally Posted by Reniannen

Then how is it possible for us to calculate the surface area of a sphere?


I am not disputing the non-existence of perfect shapes, perfect cubes don't exist either. But you are claiming that the surface of a sphere (which has dimensions) is equivalent to a point (which has no dimensions).

Furthermore where did 1/infinity came from? If a curve touches another object the number of points touching is between one and infinity. (1/infinity is 0 by the way)

we can calculate the surface of the sphere only by using pi as well as knowing the length of the segment of a line going perfectly through the center of that sphere. (segment being the distance between intersect points of the line and sphere)

a sphere need not have dimensions, especially if we have no basis for determining what the length of the axis segment would be. this can make it as flexible as a point as to size.

one point / infinity is an infinite number of points, for common purposes undefined, but really NOT 0.

Originally Posted by Khafar

This is true of the terrain, but they do have 3D physics - you can fall, and your Z coordinate will change as you do. DDO uses a variant of this game engine, and they allow navigation while you fall (to support "feather fall"). They obviously disengage pathing (so you're not constrained by pathing on the ground below) and allow a modest XY plane movement as your Z axis position drops toward the ground below.

They added a dual height map tech with Moria that allows them to specify both a ceiling and floor for any given point in the XY plane. Before that, doing "ceilings" was much trickier for the world builders.

Khafar

in which case its the same engine here, how many have experienced getting booted by various mobs and guiding your fall? how many have jumped off a cliff and turned around midair to land back on the top? And ask the Cliff Divers of Middle Earth kin on Meneldor how you can jump from a height and end up exactly where you want.

guided fall ability exists. I now tend toward lore and lack of a full map that prevents flying.

Originally Posted by SalionOfBrothers

Yea I know that there is some kind of wierd relationship between e and pi, but I never really looked into it.

e**(i*pi) = -1

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by whheydt

When people say, "But LoTRO locs give a Z value, the game *must* be 3D!", that is what they're not taking into account.

If Location objects (in the computer software meaning of an object) have 3 values (X, Y, and Z), then they represent a location in a 3D space. Swimming underwater aside, it's a shame Turbine's engine isn't capable of rendering them properly.

I think Khafar's explanation is the most accurate - it's mostly a limitation of the pathing software. Clearly they can fake it pretty well - see Draigoch for example. But he doesn't really have to path around; he's trapped in small area. Heck, maybe that's why he bugs out once in a while - they script is trying to do something to simulate flying with those "invisible stilts", and he just gets confused... I know I am

Originally Posted by Reniannen

Look I understand all the math (and I am fairly certain you do too) but what you started referring to as the surface is not surface. That's all. I am trying to get you realize you are not using the terms correctly, I am not trying to prove you wrong (though I am interested in how you arrived to the "1/infinity" figure) and I certainly don't get any joy out of this.

Look, I am not using the mathematical definition of surface but rather the day-to-day definition, such as a table's surface being the top, a tetrahedron's surface being the one of the faces. I was using this just to simplify what I wanted to explain, because I wasn't writing for an exam or an article or something, where I would strive to use correct and strictly mathematical terminology. If you really want to look at it that way, I am wrong in using "surface". But I thought It'd be best to just casually explain what I wanted to say. I am sorry.

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(I quote to indicate I'm using the casual definition)
The (1/infinity) figure comes from this: In a perfect sphere, at the maximum (like the maximum co-od in a function) There is only 1 point. More accurately, the most outward "region" in a sphere is one point. What I am saying is this:

.
..
...
.... - This is the most outward region in a sphere
...
..
.

If There is more than one point, ie

.
..
...
...
..
.

Then we have a line between those two points, making the sphere imperfect. In a perfect circle's quadrant, no two points can be collinear. A sphere is "made up" of many circles (Indicating the 2D aspect of a sphere). So, if any one of the circles is imperfect, the sphere is imperfect.

When a perfect object comes in contact with a plane, it is clear that the most outward region (facing the plane) will come in contact. In a sphere, as I explained earlier, this will be exactly one point. Now, in any given curve there are an infinite number of points (like there are infinite x and y co-ods of any function). Thus this 1 point is (1/infinity). It is a law that the space a point occupies is undefined, so the point "of contact" is undefined, and (1/infinity)(the value of which is undefined also).

I hope in this detail I have finally conveyed properly what I wanted to say
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@PDt_the_Confused

You are right about a plane intersecting a sphere resulting in infinite points in common with another intersected sphere. But I am strictly speaking of perfect spheres. If a plane intersects a sphere, it is no longer a sphere, but two 3d figures. I am talking in perfect spheres, which are obviously whole.

Mathematically, a perfect sphere also has lines in its circumference. But I am talking about a hypothetical perfect sphere which exists physically. It's like I'm saying that there is no in-universe example of Graham's Number, but you are saying that we can signify it on a piece of paper. In the end we both think the other person is wrong, while we both are talking about entirely different things.

Now look, if you want to continue this discussion, feel free to pm me. I am afraid I have caused a huge derailment of this thread.

Originally Posted by Beleg

If Location objects (in the computer software meaning of an object) have 3 values (X, Y, and Z), then they represent a location in a 3D space. Swimming underwater aside, it's a shame Turbine's engine isn't capable of rendering them properly.

I think Khafar's explanation is the most accurate - it's mostly a limitation of the pathing software. Clearly they can fake it pretty well - see Draigoch for example. But he doesn't really have to path around; he's trapped in small area. Heck, maybe that's why he bugs out once in a while - they script is trying to do something to simulate flying with those "invisible stilts", and he just gets confused... I know I am

I think the result I am seeing with the different arguments all added together and sifted through is thus:

The engine can and could do flying/swimming.

1. Your character DOES tend to go under a bit when you jump in - and used to go to the bottom if you died in the water - I don't know about now, haven't died in deep water in some time, or haven't paid attention, at least.

2. Your character CAN be guided in midair, it is not on an unchangeable arc trajectory. There are many bosses which punt you at one point or another and everyone has experienced guiding your falls. Dwarven beer bashing festival is the big one that everyone should recognize, (heck if you do it right, you can bounce off a table edge and land in the same spot you launched from.)

3. The original game never intended flying or underwater swimming, as these were a: specifically against lore as a common mode of travel, b: there was nothing ever mentioned about underwater, and c: Ulmo still protects the waters so what is there to do there?

4. At this point the resources to go back and change things would be extremely prohibitive. If anyone has worked in a structured environment where an order is placed, with change orders coming through as well... you know that to make a change in the beginning is relatively simple, but as time goes on the costs of changing the final product tend to increase exponentially, and skyrocket near and after the delivery date.

Originally Posted by Haunt123

<snip>

It's like I'm saying that there is no in-universe example of Graham's Number, but you are saying that we can signify it on a piece of paper. In the end we both think the other person is wrong, while we both are talking about entirely different things.

Now look, if you want to continue this discussion, feel free to pm me. I am afraid I have caused a huge derailment of this thread.

I see where you are going with that now, no problem. Just had an issue trying to reconcile your overlapping of physical (ie real-world in my mind) and mathematical (ie theoretical-world) when you were trying to say something like: imagine a physical object that fits the theory. I think.... lol

and I wouldn't too much worry about derailment, because the thread is about things some of us have thought to be difficult for the game engine to do, which relates to the math.

This is a fun challenge for me, digging up old old geometry theories. Besides how many other games would you find this sort of discussion on geometry on the forums? only one I know of would welcome this sort of thing, most others I am willing to bet would get flamed out of existence. lol

Originally Posted by Pdt_the_Confused

I see where you are going with that now, no problem. Just had an issue trying to reconcile your overlapping of physical (ie real-world in my mind) and mathematical (ie theoretical-world) when you were trying to say something like: imagine a physical object that fits the theory. I think.... lol

We're in the world of hypotheses. Prepare for having futile discussions about things which will never really happen

I personally don’t care about arguments regarding what the engine can or can’t do, maybe it is a flat 2d engine in which case is would explain many things regarding game play, or maybe it is 3d capable of reading z space which would also explain many things such how birds do appear to fly, albeit low on the ground, or how you are capable to fall from through a hole on the floor down on to another one bellow. More over I keep reading scalding posts on this thread and others like it, by people who keep implying that any and every modification to the game is impossible, that it would take a whole remake of the game, millions of dollars in budget and years of development, just to be able to apply it.

Whether their claims of mission impossible are true or not, I still think that game developers, and specially professional developers like turbine, must and should have known that they would eventually require to do changes to the game, whether minor modifications or major reconstructions, and would have contingency plans for such occasions.

I myself would love to underwater exploration, limited as it would be considering the lack of diving technology available in middle earth, and will leave it to the developers themselves to consider if it is at all possible; if so then count on my vote for it.

I've always kinda wanted this, but probably won't happen since then they'll have to implement some underwater environments so that everything isn't a rock bowl filled with water. Its one of those things they would of had to go with at the start of the game, its too far along with too much water to cover with habitats for them to be able to implement it well. I mean do you really want to swim underwater when all there is, is an empty terrain.

Would of been a better idea for them to have gone with it, i mean it allows you to throw in random underwater instance entrances where ever there is a body of water with considerable depth. Of course if they did for whatever reason do this now, you probably could bet safely underwater combat would never happen, so you won't get the chance to fight the lockness monster in lake evendim.

I've always wanted this! Yes a thousand times yes!

Originally Posted by Notaforumguy007

its too far along with too much water to cover with habitats .

regarding just this, they wouldnt really need to create enviroments for every river or creek thats too shallow to swim in, and there are even some lakes which are actually too cold or hot to even swim in, even the waterworks in moria dont seem too interesting to be diving around in, so it would they would just be need to create habitats for some of the mayor more interesting areas like lake evendim.