Thread: Solo'ers suffer to much. Bring in 1 man end game instancing.

Originally Posted by hucklebarry

Maybe we could end on this note? with an official statement?



http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/featur...aa-june-1-2012

Yes, that's dev response all right. Not necessarily what I would have wanted but... Still, these two sentences are a bit odd following each other: "Tailoring to each class to remove that variable means building 9 times as many instances for example. We designed skirmishes with the soldier in large measure to use as a balancing tool to help flatten the playing field and the differential between classes and gear. "

So if the soldier is more or less a balancing tool, wouldn't that mean not 9 different instances were needed? Yes I know, it doesn't solve EVERYTHING but as said, it balances things out quite bit.

But anyway, seems like things are going to be like it is now: solo to level cap, group when at level cap.

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

Yes, that's dev response all right. Not necessarily what I would have wanted but... Still, these two sentences are a bit odd following each other: "Tailoring to each class to remove that variable means building 9 times as many instances for example. We designed skirmishes with the soldier in large measure to use as a balancing tool to help flatten the playing field and the differential between classes and gear. "

So if the soldier is more or less a balancing tool, wouldn't that mean not 9 different instances were needed? Yes I know, it doesn't solve EVERYTHING but as said, it balances things out quite bit.

But anyway, seems like things are going to be like it is now: solo to level cap, group when at level cap.

I don't think I fully follow what you are asking, but I'll give my 2 cents.

The soldier balances because you can pick one to fill in your weak spot. Instances are soldierless and therefore the space itslef has to be balanced rather than giving you the tools (your soldier) to let you balance it.

Additionally, skirmishes can be modified. You can choose to set the difficulty to 3 man and solo it. You can raise the level. You can change the tier. So by using skirmishes, they are auto-balanced to loweset common denominator and every player has the tools to raise that level for themselves as desired. But for the devs to do this for instnace spaces would require them to make Rift in such a way that mini wouldn't need a tank, a hunter wouldn't need heals, a captain wouldn't need interrupts... etc. That is where they got the 9 different instances from. Each one would have to be tailored to the classes strengths and weaknesses.

Apologies if this isn't what you were getting at.

Originally Posted by Tchad

So, accept and adapt or go play another game, there are many nice games that one can solo everything to the core.

It's pretty clear that although Turbine has thrown a bone or two to soloers over the years, their heart just really isn't in it. It's also pretty clear from this thread that the hostility between those who prefer (for whatever reason) to solo versus those who prefer to group hasn't abated one bit over the years. All the years of shouting each other down, I suppose, but few have learned to actually speak well to or of each other.

Fortunately, for those who prefer to solo and prefer to play games that don't penalize them for their playstyle, Guild Wars 2 is just around the corner. So, posters, your wish may soon be granted. Solo players may take that oft given advice, typified above, and go play another game.

I can't help but remark on the dual personality of this game. Solo friendly to level 60 or so, then shifting gears dramatically, requiring group content to obtain better gear and equipment. (And please, don't make me laugh about how solo skirmishes give marks and medallions, a pathetic number next to any group content and compared to the price of gear on rep vendors. I once calculated that it would take 9 months of skirming (250 marks per day) every day to get enough M/M to get the "solo" set from Dunland.)

But the real laugh is hanging out in Bree or North Downs or Lonelands and watching GLFF. A player looks for a party to do a quest and gets told "You can solo that" "You don't need a group for that" "Learn to play, noob" "Your gear is sheet, no wonder you can't solo easy content" and similar comments. We've all seen them. But then, rubber band to end game and the dialog changes to "soloers don't deserve content like the rest of us" "get a kin" "Pug, you noob, it's not that hard". One wonders how these advice-givers imagine that the same player they mocked at level 25 wants to play with them at level 65.

Based on the first 60 levels, it is no wonder that solo players are unhappy at end game at being excluded from content they would like to enjoy and have come to expect. Asking to be included in end-game content isn't a sin. It isn't an unforgivable treason against the secret MMO code, it's the natural outcome of LOTRO's game design, the expectations set by the first 60 levels of the game, and a desire to experience the entire story.

TL;DR: Be careful what you wish for. GW2 is just around the corner.

I don't like, don't do and don't approve that kind of behavior you mention when people are asking for help on glff, ooc, regional or any chat channel.

Sorry if you took my post as hostility, that was not my intention. Just went to facts.

Lotro is solo friendly and you don't need end-game gear to do solo stuff. Lotro is even becoming more solo friendly lately:

Soldier summon out of skirms, crystals making second age dps like first age weapons, very good gear to barter with marks/seals, instance finder (fail attempt, but a honesty try from Turbine to make non-kin+non-raiders able to do more instances), ...

I think soloers who don't have time are just bitter because they want to get the same stuff raiders get and run the same instances, but they can't and should not.

I didn't mean to toss people away when I told who don't fit to find another game. Every player that leaves lotro is a loss, but there is not point of getting frustrated by something what will not change: soloers will never be able to do full lotro content and will never get the same rewards. Turbine is certainly trying to close the gap and make the game better for soloers, but will never be the same.

If you feel really bad about that and cannot get over it and adapt, changing games might be the right solution for you.

Good luck with GW2 (I doubt that your problem will be solved there, they will probably have stuff that only raiders will do and get). I might give it a try if I can manage some free time from lotro, which I doubt I will.

Originally Posted by hucklebarry

I don't think I fully follow what you are asking, but I'll give my 2 cents.

The soldier balances because you can pick one to fill in your weak spot. Instances are soldierless and therefore the space itslef has to be balanced rather than giving you the tools (your soldier) to let you balance it.

Additionally, skirmishes can be modified. You can choose to set the difficulty to 3 man and solo it. You can raise the level. You can change the tier. So by using skirmishes, they are auto-balanced to loweset common denominator and every player has the tools to raise that level for themselves as desired. But for the devs to do this for instnace spaces would require them to make Rift in such a way that mini wouldn't need a tank, a hunter wouldn't need heals, a captain wouldn't need interrupts... etc. That is where they got the 9 different instances from. Each one would have to be tailored to the classes strengths and weaknesses.

Apologies if this isn't what you were getting at.

I was thinking if they allowed those skirmish soldiers in instances, at least for those solo versions of instances. And I wonder why JWBarry didn't include that possibility to his answer (but then again, it wasn't asked). If things were as they are now: no soldiers inside instances, then it would be indeed what you and JWBarry said (9 different versions of instances were needed).

Like I said, allowing skirmish soldiers inside scalable instances (at least into those solo versions), that would not solve everything but at least not 9 versions of each instance were needed. Maybe three? Melee/ranged/tactical or light/medium/heavy or something like that? That's what I meant, sorry about not putting my thoughts of skirmish soldier out

Originally Posted by Tchad

So, accept and adapt or go play another game, there are many nice games that one can solo everything to the core.

You explained already better what you meant, but I'll give my 2 cents here anyway because this is is a statement that is heard often. The thing is that people are still here because this is The Best And The Only Game about LOTR and Tolkien's work. There's no other game that comes even close to this, with new content coming (slowly) every now and then. As we saw in other thread where someone asked "Would you still play this game if this wasn't Lord of the Rings?" we saw that 95% if not more said no, they would not play this, for various reasons: the only thing that keeps them playing still is the setting. I am one of those.

But that's also the reason why people get vocal and state their opinions and feel strong about this game (some people even call it whining) because thay want still play this game, but the same time they would like it to be FUN and have more of the content they like. I think it's natural, and there is no better place to voice our opinions than these forums, because devs do read these forums too and you never know when your opinion is being heard and someone is going to do something about it

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

Maybe you and Volodir should take this one outside and settle it. You can go solo but get Inspired Greatness buff, he'll bring a raid along

Oh sweet lord, I think I sense a new topic for a thread coming on... and it shall be epic!!

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

Snip...

Would you mind updating the second quote? You typed in my name but it was someone else that said that. Thanks.

Originally Posted by hucklebarry

Would you mind updating the second quote? You typed in my name but it was someone else that said that. Thanks.

Sorry about that, corrected.

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

You explained already better what you meant, but I'll give my 2 cents here anyway because this is is a statement that is heard often. The thing is that people are still here because this is The Best And The Only Game about LOTR and Tolkien's work. There's no other game that comes even close to this, with new content coming (slowly) every now and then. As we saw in other thread where someone asked "Would you still play this game if this wasn't Lord of the Rings?" we saw that 95% if not more said no, they would not play this, for various reasons: the only thing that keeps them playing still is the setting. I am one of those.

But that's also the reason why people get vocal and state their opinions and feel strong about this game (some people even call it whining) because thay want still play this game, but the same time they would like it to be FUN and have more of the content they like. I think it's natural, and there is no better place to voice our opinions than these forums, because devs do read these forums too and you never know when your opinion is being heard and someone is going to do something about it

Lotro is not the only game on Tolkien's work, it is the only MMORPG on Tolkien's game. There are a lot more games on Tolkien's work.

Voicing the opinion is good, you have a point here.

There is a difference between voicing the opinion and complaining and getting frustrated by something that will not change, at least not in the way people are asking.

I think that those frustrated and complaining are just bitter because they want and can't (for diff reasons) be a raider. Those who play solo because they really like to play solo are not complaining and have already adapted.

I really meant for the good, nobody should be frustrated by a game that is supposed to be fun and if the issue will not be removed anytime soon, there are two options: adapt and get over it or change the game. If that is not your case, we don't have an argument here. Cheers. Lets talk/write less and play more.

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

Sorry about that, corrected.

Thank you

I have a few thoughts on this, and I'm sure they will be unpopular amongst raiders... The game is meant to be fun for each of us. If I want to tool around in raids as a soloer, why should I not be able to? I don't want the same rewards, I just want to experience them. It takes 12 people to do a raid? Lower the chance of me getting items 12 times, and give me 1/12 the amount of marks/medallions/seals. If the lockout still applies, it's really not a viable means for me to get geared, it's just a means for me to experience and familiarize myself with content that is otherwise locked out from me because:

A lot of the raids being formed require you to be equipped in raid gear, or know the fights beforehand... Not particularly encouraging when you're trying to get started out doing these things.

"You don't need the gear if you're running solo": Is that so? I shouldn't be better off helping undergeared people through the 3-6 man instances like you are? I shouldn't have an easy time at T3 solo skirmishes like you do? I shouldn't be effective in PvMP because I am a soloer and don't deserve that gear?

Basically you need to define why you raid, do you do it for fun? If so, who cares what other people are wearing? Is it done for gear? If so, what for? Once you've got a full set, you've beaten the game right? Or do you do it for status? That's really the only reason I can see that a raider would have for not wanting soloers to get raid gear through other means.

I think a pretty good compromise would be to just divide the rewards based on how many people are doing the "raid" with you. You are rewarded for your coordination and group cohesion much more rapidly than I'm rewarded for my singleminded obsessive endless repetition. Both of us pay for the same gear, you with coordination, me with time, both of us reap the same benefits when soloing, small-grouping.

A solution like that would make sense to me. Even the instance finder would be a nice alternative if people used it. As it stands now, I'm stuck because of my playtime, and the fact that I can't join these dungeons because I'm not geared for them because I can't join them because I've not done them before.

Originally Posted by Treize6

I have a few thoughts on this, and I'm sure they will be unpopular amongst raiders... The game is meant to be fun for each of us. If I want to tool around in raids as a soloer, why should I not be able to? I don't want the same rewards, I just want to experience them. It takes 12 people to do a raid? Lower the chance of me getting items 12 times, and give me 1/12 the amount of marks/medallions/seals. If the lockout still applies, it's really not a viable means for me to get geared, it's just a means for me to experience and familiarize myself with content that is otherwise locked out from me because:

A lot of the raids being formed require you to be equipped in raid gear, or know the fights beforehand... Not particularly encouraging when you're trying to get started out doing these things.

"You don't need the gear if you're running solo": Is that so? I shouldn't be better off helping undergeared people through the 3-6 man instances like you are? I shouldn't have an easy time at T3 solo skirmishes like you do? I shouldn't be effective in PvMP because I am a soloer and don't deserve that gear?

Basically you need to define why you raid, do you do it for fun? If so, who cares what other people are wearing? Is it done for gear? If so, what for? Once you've got a full set, you've beaten the game right? Or do you do it for status? That's really the only reason I can see that a raider would have for not wanting soloers to get raid gear through other means.

I think a pretty good compromise would be to just divide the rewards based on how many people are doing the "raid" with you. You are rewarded for your coordination and group cohesion much more rapidly than I'm rewarded for my singleminded obsessive endless repetition. Both of us pay for the same gear, you with coordination, me with time, both of us reap the same benefits when soloing, small-grouping.

A solution like that would make sense to me. Even the instance finder would be a nice alternative if people used it. As it stands now, I'm stuck because of my playtime, and the fact that I can't join these dungeons because I'm not geared for them because I can't join them because I've not done them before.

Treiz, you touch on this some at the very end of your post. The problem is accessibility.

This whole solo player vs raider debate is a false one. That's not the real issue. The real issue is not everyone has the capacity to join a raiding group. That's one of the chief flaws in this game and many other MMORPGs, and why WoW - despite it's shoddy gamplay - is the most successful MMO of all time. Because that game understood forcing players to organize and create their own "clicks" to experience endgame is going to leave out a LOT of people.

Every MMO should have a cross-server LFG tool that makes all content easily accessible for all players at their convience. The sooner these game companies understand that, the sooner they can actually start making a real "WoW-killer" and actually compete.

Originally Posted by Treize6

I shouldn't be effective in PvMP because I am a soloer and don't deserve that gear?

If you are serious about PvMP, you will get the audacity gear, so all of the ToO armor becomes worthless.

Use Limlight Gorge Jewelery, Teal build your own necklace, rep bracelets, PvMP rings, rank cloak, and you've got a very viable and competitive PvMP gear set that never required you to raid for it.

If what you're really saying is you don't want to group up with others in the 'Moors - have fun getting ran over by the CRaid.....

Originally Posted by Eriandor

I would like to see solo instances of endgame raids for wholly another reason, but the end result could maybe suit the OP as well.

I have been playing the game for nearly 5 years, and one of the main reasons for playing is that I have a chronic illness that can strike at any time, and is very painful when it does - distraction is a surprisingly efficient form of pain management. On top of this, part of my treatment requires me to drink 5 ltrs of fluid a day, dosed with vitamin C to keep flushing my system. Additionaly, I am a stay at home parent with kids to care for.

As you can imagine with this combination, the chances of me having to drop out right in the middle of doing a raid or any group content that lasts around an hour is probably greater than 50% on any given instance. I can't / won't do group content on this basis, as it would be manifestly unfair to impose that on other players, and even if I did, I would imagine I would earn myself such a bad reputation by doing so as to never get invited to groups again very quickly. I have multiple max level characters, on more than one server, but having not done a lot of any group content, and with the game really not requiring it till pretty much end game these days, I also don't really have the required knowledge of group mechanics to be able to just jump in and try it in a PUG on a good night.

I would LOVE to see some of the end game content I have missed over the years. The soloification of the Epic books was an absolute high point in the game for me, as I was finally able to play my way through so much I had missed. I don't want the end game rewards, though if they were to be provided at a greatly scaled back rate so that soloing this content was much less viable (say at least 5 times more time consuming?), I can't see that it would hurt.

I would not in any way like to see the original content dumbed down, but rather, like the Hall of Mirrors was done for the Epic line in Moria, a seperate solo instance for those that for whatever reason cannot do it as a group / raid. I would be just as happy if this didn't happen till after the instances were no longer the end game conent - e.g. now that Isengard is where it's at, Mirkwood content outside of the Epic line was to get solo versions added - this way it wouldn't pull people away from the pool that are looking to raid end game content, thus making it harder to form groups.

I would also like to point out something to those that may not know this:

Through having come down with a chronic illness at a later stage of life (in my 30's) I have come into contact with a number of people that have been ill for all of their life. Many of these people among the younger age group, use the internet and MMO's as their main form of contact with the outside world, but have very limited social skills, and very low confidence. It was one of these people that introduced me to this game whilst we both shared a hospital ward for a week. Some of them are actually uncofortable with grouping, but are very often that helpful crafter giving away lower level gear, or the person taking the time to give advice when questions pop up in advice channel, giving a musical performance with characters on mutliple accounts, or in other ways contributing to this game in ways that other "hardcore" players do not, but which add so much to this game.

Prior to LotRO I had played EQ, and while young, with no kids and healthy I lead raids, was in the top 5 rankings on my server for the equivelant of skirmishes etc, etc. These days there's no chance of that sort of dedicated game time, but I do miss seeing the end game content which so much work goes into. I have grouped on a number of occasions with people who either understand my condition and / or share similar circumstances, but in a way that only compounds the issue because more than one person has to drop out suddenly, making it even harder.

If you begrudge these people being able to slowly gain the same thing you can gain in a shorter time period, or don't think they should get to play the same content you do because they don't have to "suffer" raiding for it, your a much meaner person than I would care to meet. I know one person who has quit LotRO after being often /mock 'd for their unwillingness to spar, being called out on having useless gear (depsite wearing a full set of at the time top tier armour/jewlery they had crafted on their own) and other elitisms. Maybe this is the kind of reason games like Skyrim, which to me seems very shallow in comparison to the richness of this game, are attracting such good sales - some people don't like the way they are supposed to conform to the mean in an online game to be accepted. I hope not.

I understand where you are comming from as I have a lot of friends in the same situation with MS. It would be nice if the Developers did make some of the end game content so that it also was a skrim that way it could be soloed and explored by all but without the endgame rewards......just to make it fair for all the hard grouping required for the 6, 12, and 24 raiders. I think this would do two things; 1. It would add new skrims to the content. and 2. It would allow a solo player to enjoy the exploration of Middle-earth in a new and exciting way.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

If you are serious about PvMP, you will get the audacity gear, so all of the ToO armor becomes worthless.

Use Limlight Gorge Jewelery, Teal build your own necklace, rep bracelets, PvMP rings, rank cloak, and you've got a very viable and competitive PvMP gear set that never required you to raid for it.

If what you're really saying is you don't want to group up with others in the 'Moors - have fun getting ran over by the CRaid.....

I have no problem grouping in Moors, but I've been told more or less that in order to get groups there I need to be "known" first. I've definitely tried to get groups, and it just wasn't happening. I've been playing PvP games since DAoC, I feel I'm able to do well in that setting, I'm just not bothered enough to "make a name for myself", as that's just tiresome quite frankly. I was just using that as an example really, maybe it was a bad one.

LOL. Threads like these make me laugh. Wan't better gear get good enough at your toon to raid. Don't want to or can't raid, then you don't get the best gear. I mean they already made it easier by making a t1 clear the only requirement to get raid armour. How much more do you wan't from them? I mean even the limlight gear is very easy to get and is some of the best jewellry in the game. Ok to be fair unless your a warden you might have to group with two other to do them but come on. Thats a pretty easy way to get end game jewelry.

There already are end game solo instances they are called skirmishes and at t1 are incredibly easy even at t2 they are pretty simple. I can see t3 being difficult for some classes but why would you do t3 skirms solo?

If your a casual/solo player the gear you get from crafting is more than enough to complete the content you have available to you. Sorry but its hardly fair for people who work to beat the hardest content in the game to leave the instance and see someone who only solo's but has the same gear.

Wan't better stuff group and raid.

Originally Posted by Treize6

I have a few thoughts on this, and I'm sure they will be unpopular amongst raiders... The game is meant to be fun for each of us. If I want to tool around in raids as a soloer, why should I not be able to? I don't want the same rewards, I just want to experience them. It takes 12 people to do a raid? Lower the chance of me getting items 12 times, and give me 1/12 the amount of marks/medallions/seals. If the lockout still applies, it's really not a viable means for me to get geared, it's just a means for me to experience and familiarize myself with content that is otherwise locked out from me because:

A lot of the raids being formed require you to be equipped in raid gear, or know the fights beforehand... Not particularly encouraging when you're trying to get started out doing these things.

"You don't need the gear if you're running solo": Is that so? I shouldn't be better off helping undergeared people through the 3-6 man instances like you are? I shouldn't have an easy time at T3 solo skirmishes like you do? I shouldn't be effective in PvMP because I am a soloer and don't deserve that gear?

Basically you need to define why you raid, do you do it for fun? If so, who cares what other people are wearing? Is it done for gear? If so, what for? Once you've got a full set, you've beaten the game right? Or do you do it for status? That's really the only reason I can see that a raider would have for not wanting soloers to get raid gear through other means.

I think a pretty good compromise would be to just divide the rewards based on how many people are doing the "raid" with you. You are rewarded for your coordination and group cohesion much more rapidly than I'm rewarded for my singleminded obsessive endless repetition. Both of us pay for the same gear, you with coordination, me with time, both of us reap the same benefits when soloing, small-grouping.

A solution like that would make sense to me. Even the instance finder would be a nice alternative if people used it. As it stands now, I'm stuck because of my playtime, and the fact that I can't join these dungeons because I'm not geared for them because I can't join them because I've not done them before.

I want to touch on the bolded part of your quote -- it's an assumption that raiders just don't want soloers to get good gear. Why do people raid? Simply because it's fun -- they like the ability to beat difficult content with a coordinated crew of people. Laugh in vent at the wipes and enjoy the social aspect of the evening as you progress through the instance with 11 other people. The gear thing is a red herring -- especially in LOTRO. Honestly if folks who raided in this game really did it mainly for the gear they'd have stopped ages ago. Most raiders could care less what gear soloers have to be honest, and I also feel you're forgetting a VERY important detail IMHO.

The vast majority of raiders -- and I dare say ALL serious raiders -- don't just raid. They raid, solo, craft, group, and quest. Many many raiders also spend a lot of time in PvMP --not all but a large chunk. Also a good chunk of raiders have been known to RP, host a fishing tournament or form up a band and have a concert in Bree for much drink and merriment. (yes I know ..I"m on Landroval...)

My point? Raiders who do all these things would like to be able to get rewarded differently for each of the tasks they do. It has nothing to do with locking anyone else out of anything as folks so often say (I can't raid therefore I"M *locked* out of content) -- it has to do with this. If I raid I don't want to the same rewards I can get solo -- otherwise why would I do both? I want to do both -- I want to be able to get different things from doing both.

As for accessing content solo simply to see it -- I really don't see why that's a problem beyond development dollars. Sure they could use the already existant system that allows you to revisit epic content you've completed already in order to give you a solo run through a raid you may never get to see for whatever reason. I'd be fine with that IF they had enough money to not jeoprodize the investment in to the rest of the game -- I just don't believe they do. IMO it's a fluff idea that just isn't worth the development dollars.

Originally Posted by t-town-colt

LOL. Threads like these make me laugh. Wan't better gear get good enough at your toon to raid. Don't want to or can't raid, then you don't get the best gear. I mean they already made it easier by making a t1 clear the only requirement to get raid armour. How much more do you wan't from them? I mean even the limlight gear is very easy to get and is some of the best jewellry in the game. Ok to be fair unless your a warden you might have to group with two other to do them but come on. Thats a pretty easy way to get end game jewelry.

There already are end game solo instances they are called skirmishes and at t1 are incredibly easy even at t2 they are pretty simple. I can see t3 being difficult for some classes but why would you do t3 skirms solo?

If your a casual/solo player the gear you get from crafting is more than enough to complete the content you have available to you. Sorry but its hardly fair for people who work to beat the hardest content in the game to leave the instance and see someone who only solo's but has the same gear.

Wan't better stuff group and raid.

Colt, while I agree with you that getting the Orthanc gear is pretty reasonable, since you only have to complete the raid once then you can farm seals and medallions in more convenient ways more in tune with your lifestyle.

But if you are wanting to get your First Age items or upgrade your cloak or necklace using the clasp - it's very difficult to get those unless you have the time and ability to commit to a regular raiding group. And content should be accessible to all paying customers, not meerly those who have the time and ability to raid regularly once a week at specific times.

The sooner games like this realize that, the sooner the MMO market will actually start to have some real competetion, instead of WoW dominating the market because apparantly Blizzard is the only company who realizes that accessibility + content = win - and that forcing your players to have to organize events on their own while trying to balance 12 different schedules with families in different time zones isn't a whole lot of fun.

Why do people insist on demanding gear without effort put into getting the gear? This is the same argument for why loot boxes and anniversary boxes dropped 1st age symbols. I know a guy on my server who got a first age not even a couple hours after he hit 75, from a lootbox. He did not have ToO gear, he had never run a draig, heck, he had never run a single Isen instance or foundry, yet he had a first age. Tell me again how THAT is fair to people like me who had to run t2 orthanc over 7 times before I was rewarded with a first age. Different story when the tables are flipped, huh?

Rewards should be proportional to effort. If you can't raid, you can't raid. If you want raid gear, go raid. I see no reason you need raiding gear if you're not competing in raids. It's like the difference between driving a sports car and a regular one. I'm not gonna buy a vamped up sports car engine to drive to and from work, I only need the regular engine. If I want to compete in the races, then I'll get the sports car.

You say it is not fair to the solo'ers as it is now, yet you can get draig armor, limlight jewelry, a first age, and numerous pieces of crafted armor/jewelry without doing a single group instance of any size. If what you propose came about, there simply would be no point in raiding. The complex organization and coordination required to complete a raid would be thrown out the window since it would be easier, albeit longer, to get raid gear.

Think back to my previous example. Should he have had access to a full ToO set and t2 jewelry as well without needing to raid any t2 as well? Might as well just spit on my effort, right? I enjoy raiding for the challenge, the excitement, and lastly the loot. BUT, with a solo endgame instance all of these components would practically and effectively be removed.

Raiders shouldn't be shafted to help solo'ers just as it shouldn't be vice versa.

Originally Posted by musicman2000

I want to touch on the bolded part of your quote -- it's an assumption that raiders just don't want soloers to get good gear. Why do people raid? Simply because it's fun -- they like the ability to beat difficult content with a coordinated crew of people. Laugh in vent at the wipes and enjoy the social aspect of the evening as you progress through the instance with 11 other people. The gear thing is a red herring -- especially in LOTRO. Honestly if folks who raided in this game really did it mainly for the gear they'd have stopped ages ago. Most raiders could care less what gear soloers have to be honest, and I also feel you're forgetting a VERY important detail IMHO.

The vast majority of raiders -- and I dare say ALL serious raiders -- don't just raid. They raid, solo, craft, group, and quest. Many many raiders also spend a lot of time in PvMP --not all but a large chunk. Also a good chunk of raiders have been known to RP, host a fishing tournament or form up a band and have a concert in Bree for much drink and merriment. (yes I know ..I"m on Landroval...)

My point? Raiders who do all these things would like to be able to get rewarded differently for each of the tasks they do. It has nothing to do with locking anyone else out of anything as folks so often say (I can't raid therefore I"M *locked* out of content) -- it has to do with this. If I raid I don't want to the same rewards I can get solo -- otherwise why would I do both? I want to do both -- I want to be able to get different things from doing both.

As for accessing content solo simply to see it -- I really don't see why that's a problem beyond development dollars. Sure they could use the already existant system that allows you to revisit epic content you've completed already in order to give you a solo run through a raid you may never get to see for whatever reason. I'd be fine with that IF they had enough money to not jeoprodize the investment in to the rest of the game -- I just don't believe they do. IMO it's a fluff idea that just isn't worth the development dollars.

i agree with you!



I play mmo cause i want to play together with other people. And accomplish things together. Its hard to beat the feeling getting a raid done for the first time.

Originally Posted by Bond007

Why do people insist on demanding gear without effort put into getting the gear? This is the same argument for why loot boxes and anniversary boxes dropped 1st age symbols. I know a guy on my server who got a first age not even a couple hours after he hit 75, from a lootbox. He did not have ToO gear, he had never run a draig, heck, he had never run a single Isen instance or foundry, yet he had a first age. Tell me again how THAT is fair to people like me who had to run t2 orthanc over 7 times before I was rewarded with a first age. Different story when the tables are flipped, huh?

Rewards should be proportional to effort. If you can't raid, you can't raid. If you want raid gear, go raid. I see no reason you need raiding gear if you're not competing in raids. It's like the difference between driving a sports car and a regular one. I'm not gonna buy a vamped up sports car engine to drive to and from work, I only need the regular engine. If I want to compete in the races, then I'll get the sports car.

You say it is not fair to the solo'ers as it is now, yet you can get draig armor, limlight jewelry, a first age, and numerous pieces of crafted armor/jewelry without doing a single group instance of any size. If what you propose came about, there simply would be no point in raiding. The complex organization and coordination required to complete a raid would be thrown out the window since it would be easier, albeit longer, to get raid gear.

Think back to my previous example. Should he have had access to a full ToO set and t2 jewelry as well without needing to raid any t2 as well? Might as well just spit on my effort, right? I enjoy raiding for the challenge, the excitement, and lastly the loot. BUT, with a solo endgame instance all of these components would practically and effectively be removed.

Raiders shouldn't be shafted to help solo'ers just as it shouldn't be vice versa.

I agree it should take "effort". But the "effort" should be doing the actual raid, NOT trying to find the people to do one with or attempting to organize an event while balancing a thousand different factors involving 12 different people with families, schedules, jobs and different time zones. That's not the kind of "effort" I'm looking for when I sit down to play a video game.

If I wanted to spend all day organizing events, I would have started a party planning business or somethng so I could get paid for it.

To be honest, Turbine owes Raid Leaders a salary for what they put themselves through for their game. If it wasn't for their initiative or willingness to deal with the endless stress of trying to put one together and keep it together no one would be able to do their "raids". Video games aren't suppose to be a second job.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Colt, while I agree with you that getting the Orthanc gear is pretty reasonable, since you only have to complete the raid once then you can farm seals and medallions in more convenient ways more in tune with your lifestyle.

But if you are wanting to get your First Age items or upgrade your cloak or necklace using the clasp - it's very difficult to get those unless you have the time and ability to commit to a regular raiding group. And content should be accessible to all paying customers, not meerly those who have the time and ability to raid regularly once a week at specific times.

The sooner games like this realize that, the sooner the MMO market will actually start to have some real competetion, instead of WoW dominating the market because apparantly Blizzard is the only company who realizes that accessibility + content = win - and that forcing your players to have to organize events on their own while trying to balance 12 different schedules with families in different time zones isn't a whole lot of fun.

I don't play WoW, so I ask this sincerely: does WoW really have some feature that enables all players to beat the hardest content and acquire the best gear, regardless of their ability or the time that they have to play? I highly doubt it, but if it exists I'd love to be enlightened.

I think he's talking about cross-server LFG, which as far as I know doesn't really work for the hardest content, which is still only really doable with a static raid group.

I doubt that I'm alone in saying that top-tier raids should be difficult enough that a PUG can't do them.

Originally Posted by Lestache

I don't play WoW, so I ask this sincerely: does WoW really have some feature that enables all players to beat the hardest content and acquire the best gear, regardless of their ability or the time that they have to play? I highly doubt it, but if it exists I'd love to be enlightened.

You need to reread what you are responding to if you think i said all players should be able to beat the hardest content and aquire the best gear, regardless of their abilities ect... cause I said nothing even close to that lol

Always weird to me when people say something I never even remotely said then start arguing with themselves.

What I DID refere to though was how WoW grants their players far more accessiblity than this game does, allowing players who don't have the time or ability to adhere to strict and regular raiding schedules to queue up for larger scale content like raids by using a cross-server queue system. And that's a good thing more MMOs would be wise to implement.

Not everyone who pugs are awful players either. In fact, some of the best players I've ever met have been pugs. And there are plenty of pug groups out there capable of doing difficult content.

Originally Posted by Gylve

I think he's talking about cross-server LFG, which as far as I know doesn't really work for the hardest content, which is still only really doable with a static raid group.

I doubt that I'm alone in saying that top-tier raids should be difficult enough that a PUG can't do them.

PUG means Pick UP Group. It doens't stand for ###### player group.

Like I told that other guy, there are a ton of great players out there who simply don't have the time or schedule that allows for them to join a raiding schedule. So the pool of good players who would be using a raid queue system is a lot larger than you may think, and I'm sure they could get the job done a lot of times - especially as they became more experienced and started to learn the raid.

I disagree. I think the success rate for IF-made ToO T2 would be microscopic at best. At the very least, you'd need all 12 players to be well geared, competent players, one of them would have to be a fantastic raid leader and another would have to be a tank who knows the content already. You can guarantee those last two things in a player-organized PUG, then carefully choose the other 10 people for your best chance of success.

Originally Posted by Gylve

I disagree. I think the success rate for IF-made ToO T2 would be microscopic at best. At the very least, you'd need all 12 players to be well geared, competent players, one of them would have to be a fantastic raid leader and another would have to be a tank who knows the content already. You can guarantee those last two things in a player-organized PUG, then carefully choose the other 10 people for your best chance of success.

Well that's fine Gylve, you can disagree with me if you like.

But I"m reasonably sure I'm correct, and if they allowed players to queue up for raids the general population on this game would become well-enough versed with its mechanics that they could get the job done as they gained experience and learned the content better.

There would be a lot of disasters of course, but there would be a lot of successes as well. I'm pretty confident of that.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

You need to reread what you are responding to if you think i said all players should be able to beat the hardest content and aquire the best gear, regardless of their abilities ect... cause I said nothing even close to that lol

Always weird to me when people say something I never even remotely said then start arguing with themselves.

What I DID refere to though was how WoW grants their players far more accessiblity than this game does, allowing players who don't have the time or ability to adhere to strict and regular raiding schedules to queue up for larger scale content like raids by using a cross-server queue system. And that's a good thing more MMOs would be wise to implement.

Not everyone who pugs are awful players either. In fact, some of the best players I've ever met have been pugs. And there are plenty of pug groups out there capable of doing difficult content.

Okay, I reread it, and to be fair, you didn't say "beat the hardest content" - you just said that it should be "accessible" to all regardless of time or ability. However, you did say this immediately after stating how difficult it is to get a cloak clasp and a first age, so it seemed that you were saying that WoW had something in place that helped people get the WoW equivalent of cloak clasps and first ages.

So okay - a cross-server group-finder would possibly make getting a group easier, but I don't see how it'll make getting the gear gated behind the hardest content any easier.

As for your last point, I never said (or even insinuated) that people who pug are awful players. It's weird when people respond to things that I don't say.

(I will stipulate that Orthanc T2 is simply not puggable. I don't care who you are. If the twelve best players in all of LOTRO somehow found themselves placed together in a group, even they wouldn't be clearing Orthanc T2 (i.e., the hardest content) in one go. The time needed to come up with a strategy for each pull and boss alone would be prohibitive.)

Originally Posted by Lestache

Okay, I reread it, and to be fair, you didn't say "beat the hardest content" - you just said that it should be "accessible" to all regardless of time or ability. However, you did say this immediately after stating how difficult it is to get a cloak clasp and a first age, so it seemed that you were saying that WoW had something in place that helped people get the WoW equivalent of cloak clasps and first ages.

So okay - a cross-server group-finder would possibly make getting a group easier, but I don't see how it'll make getting the gear gated behind the hardest content any easier.

As for your last point, I never said (or even insinuated) that people who pug are awful players. It's weird when people respond to things that I don't say.

(I will stipulate that Orthanc T2 is simply not puggable. I don't care who you are. If the twelve best players in all of LOTRO somehow found themselves placed together in a group, even they wouldn't be clearing Orthanc T2 (i.e., the hardest content) in one go. The time needed to come up with a strategy for each pull and boss alone would be prohibitive.)

You were implying that by suggesting pug groups were incapable of doing the more difficult content. That's why I pointed out there are a lot of great players who pug and they weren't all awful.

I've defeated Saruman for example in pug groups before - and he drops a clasp. I had a friend who was in a pug group that cleared Tier2 Lightning Wing just the other day.

Pug groups are capable of doing the more difficult content. The only reason it may be rare to find good pug groups is because so many players lack experience at doing raids because they are very hard to get into for a lot of players due to time constraints and the difficulty of trying to put a 12 man pug group together through a LFF chat channel is frustrating and time-consuming.

Experience matters and can help a lot. And if more players could easily access raids and attempt them together, it would have a positive impact and more and more players would become experts on how to win more difficult content.

I havent read all of the pages but if you think soloers ''suffer'' in this game then perhaps you havent realised how much solo-content this game has (?)
LotRO is one of the most (if not the most) solo-friendly Massive Multiplayer Online Game out there. You can solo pretty much almost all the content without trouble
People who raid and like the group-content, need to have something as well, lets not want the whole pie for ourselves, shall we?
Just my two cents

Originally Posted by ''Cris'''

I havent read all of the pages but if you think soloers ''suffer'' in this game then i am sorry but perhaps you dont know what you talking about (?)
LotRO is one of the most (if not the most) solo-friendly Massive Multiplayer Online Game out there. You can solo pretty much almost all the content without trouble
People who raid and like the group-content, need to have something as well, lets not want the whole pie for ourselves, shall we?
Just my two cents

I agree this game has a lot for soloers to do - and it would be foolish for a MMO to focus their gamplay for "soloers" anyways. That makes no sense. If you just want to solo all the time, why even play a MMORPG.

But that point actually emphasizes what I was saying earlier. That's why it's very important to make grouping up together as easy and convienent as possible - so everyone can enjoy what makes MMOs fun to begin with - and that's playing with other people.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Well that's fine Gylve, you can disagree with me if you like.

But I"m reasonably sure I'm correct, and if they allowed players to queue up for raids the general population on this game would become well-enough versed with its mechanics that they could get the job done as they gained experience and learned the content better.

There would be a lot of disasters of course, but there would be a lot of successes as well. I'm pretty confident of that.

For ToO T2 CM it is good to have players that raided a lot together. A raid where everybody know each other react better when something bad happen. Also the group need to follow the leader. It is not rare to have players that, for many reasons, don't follow the leader instructions and/or don't reach as fast as they need (don't understand that the leader meant). A good raid react before the leader telling what to do, because they know what will be asked before and are confident to do it without waiting.

Originally Posted by Tchad

For ToO T2 CM it is good to have players that raided a lot together. A raid where everybody know each other react better when something bad happen. Also the group need to follow the leader. It is not rare to have players that, for many reasons, don't follow the leader instructions and/or don't reach as fast as they need (don't understand that the leader meant). A good raid react before the leader telling what to do, because they know what will be asked before and are confident to do it without waiting.

Of course it helps Tchad, and a well-oiled group used to playing together is ususally going to out-perform PUG groups. That's common sense.

But experience matters also, and if more players had access to raiding they would learn from their mistakes and I do believe you would see their skill in raids increase as a result. It would be painful at first - but as more and more players pugged together and learned the raids - they would get better and the success rate of pugging would increase as a result.

But either way, those who's only option is to "pug" for raids should be afforded the chance. And an effective cross-server queue system similiar to WoW that allowed players unable to commit to raiding schedules to pug together so they can experience raiding too should be commonplace in all MMOs, especially these days.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

You were implying that by suggesting pug groups were incapable of doing the more difficult content. That's why I pointed out there are a lot of great players who pug and they weren't all awful.

I've defeated Saruman for example in pug groups before - and he drops a clasp. I had a friend who was in a pug group that cleared Tier2 Lightning Wing just the other day.

Pug groups are capable of doing the more difficult content. The only reason it may be rare to find good pug groups is because so many players lack experience at doing raids because they are very hard to get into for a lot of players due to time constraints and the difficulty of trying to put a 12 man pug group together through a LFF chat channel is frustrating and time-consuming.

Experience matters and can help a lot. And if more players could easily access raids and attempt them together, it would have a positive impact and more and more players would become experts on how to win more difficult content.

I won't dispute that a cross-server group finder might be beneficial to those on smaller servers or who play at odd times of the day. I'm also in favor of more people getting to experience the content and getting the chance to raid if they wish.

I just don't think that a cross-server group finder will make the harder content all that much more accessible. Your anecdotal evidence only illustrates what we already know: that all of Orthanc T1 is puggable, and so is Lightning T2C. In the context of Orthanc, neither of those qualifies as "harder content".

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Well that's fine Gylve, you can disagree with me if you like.

But I"m reasonably sure I'm correct, and if they allowed players to queue up for raids the general population on this game would become well-enough versed with its mechanics that they could get the job done as they gained experience and learned the content better.

There would be a lot of disasters of course, but there would be a lot of successes as well. I'm pretty confident of that.

Raid with competent people who don't rub well together = disaster.

Raid with 1-3 incompetent people = disaster. Epic disaster if that incompetent person happens to be CC/tank/healer.

Raid with people who have only soloed their way to level 75 and have no group experience = disaster.

Raid with competent leader, members, and decent gear = success.


Haven't you learned anything from the IF yet? People stopped using it because of ^ this math. You have a .00000001% chance of making things work out. Now add in a time frame and needed classes.

Originally Posted by Lestache

I won't dispute that a cross-server group finder might be beneficial to those on smaller servers or who play at odd times of the day. I'm also in favor of more people getting to experience the content and getting the chance to raid if they wish.

I just don't think that a cross-server group finder will make the harder content all that much more accessible. Your anecdotal evidence only illustrates what we already know: that all of Orthanc T1 is puggable, and so is Lightning T2C. In the context of Orthanc, neither of those qualifies as "harder content".

What constitutes "harder content" is subjective Lestache. Either way, I'm confident some experienced pug groups could down some "harder content".

And of course I only have anecdotal evidence, as it's an theoretical debate. What other kind of evidence would I have?

I could point to WoW though, and since the advent of the Raid queue is it successfully used by millions of players every day. If it works there, it should work here as well.

Originally Posted by Bond007

Raid with competent people who don't rub well together = disaster.

Raid with 1-3 incompetent people = disaster. Epic disaster if that incompetent person happens to be CC/tank/healer.

Raid with people who have only soloed their way to level 75 and have no group experience = disaster.

Raid with competent leader, members, and decent gear = success.


Haven't you learned anything from the IF yet? People stopped using it because of ^ this math. You have a .00000001% chance of making things work out. Now add in a time frame and needed classes.

Not true Bond. I rarely ever have failed attempts using the instance finder. In fact I can't remember the last time I used it and didn''t find a way to make it succeed. Too bad it takes all day to work... if I'm lucky that is.

PUGs do not always mean incompetent people. As I've said before, some of the best players out there frequently pug and would jump at the chance to queue up for Raids if the option was allowed.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

You need to reread what you are responding to if you think i said all players should be able to beat the hardest content and aquire the best gear, regardless of their abilities ect... cause I said nothing even close to that lol

Always weird to me when people say something I never even remotely said then start arguing with themselves.

What I DID refere to though was how WoW grants their players far more accessiblity than this game does, allowing players who don't have the time or ability to adhere to strict and regular raiding schedules to queue up for larger scale content like raids by using a cross-server queue system. And that's a good thing more MMOs would be wise to implement.

Not everyone who pugs are awful players either. In fact, some of the best players I've ever met have been pugs. And there are plenty of pug groups out there capable of doing difficult content.

The WoW cross server raid function also uses a custom difficulty created just for it. It is extraordinarily easy. Most raid mechanics that would kill you on normal or hard mode raids can safely be ignored, though people do still find a way to fail these raids way more often then I thought was possible given the challenge of that particular content. What it does accomplish is allowing people to experience the content, albeit a watered down version that has much less impact. The gear from this version of their raids is identical in name and function of the gear found in harder modes just with less stats and is better then probable 95% percent of the gear available from group content. While some people do use it to see some content they previously would not have, its mostly used to gear up quickly with raid drops and getting the points WoW uses for purchasing a lot of gear. Once you get in one, it usually goes fast. Rarely will anybody explain anything to you and if go afk for even a brief period or perform poorly you can be sure that you will be vote kicked out of the raid.

Now, maybe the Lotro devs could do a better job but its not really something I'd be in favor of them spending resources on. It might not require a custom difficulty. I have not raided in Lotro in a long time so I don't know how easy T1 raids are but I be surprised if they were much each easier the WoW's normal mode raids and if that is the case then a custom difficulty level would be need for every future raid using this cross server ability, meaning even more development time. My experience with cross server tools has been the larger the group gets the less friendly and patience it gets. Not really an environment I want to access any part of this lore rich MMO with.

Originally Posted by Bayleron

The WoW cross server raid function also uses a custom difficulty created just for it. It is extraordinarily easy. Most raid mechanics that would kill you on normal or hard mode raids can safely be ignored, though people do still find a way to fail these raids way more often then I thought was possible given the challenge of that particular content. What it does accomplish is allowing people to experience the content, albeit a watered down version that has much less impact. The gear from this version of their raids is identical in name and function of the gear found in harder modes just with less stats and is better then probable 95% percent of the gear available from group content. While some people do use it to see some content they previously would not have, its mostly used to gear up quickly with raid drops and getting the points WoW uses for purchasing a lot of gear. Once you get in one, it usually goes fast. Rarely will anybody explain anything to you and if go afk for even a brief period or perform poorly you can be sure that you will be vote kicked out of the raid.

Now, maybe the Lotro devs could do a better job but its not really something I'd be in favor of them spending resources on. It might not require a custom difficulty. I have not raided in Lotro in a long time so I don't know how easy T1 raids are but I be surprised if they were much each easier the WoW's normal mode raids and if that is the case then a custom difficulty level would be need for every future raid using this cross server ability, meaning even more development time. My experience with cross server tools has been the larger the group gets the less friendly and patience it gets. Not really an environment I want to access any part of this lore rich MMO with.

Bayler, I had good experiences with the WoW ground-finder. I found it worked quickly and effectively, and I got a lot done using it. Yes, there were a few rude people I encountered, but that was a small price to pay for being able to almost instantly access content I was interested in doing with my friends.

And besides, if you don't want to use it due to a fear of encountering impatient rude people, that's fine - and I'm not suggesting people who don't want to use it should be forced into doing so.

As a raider, I have no problem with someone running a solo version of the raid and getting a version of the gear with all the same stats... As long as while they are wearing the solo gear they are flagged as *Noob* in chat and their gear is unequipped whenever they join a fellowship or raid.

Having the gear is supposed to mean that you've beaten the fight and therefore have some clue of what you're supposed to do. Inspect someone, see they have the gear, go ahead and invite them to the raid; it used to be simple. I don't mind pugging a person or two on occasion to fill out a raid, but I don't want to take someone who has never done the raid before unless they are truly the last option.

And to any people who say 'that's mean' & 'how am I supposed to get experience if I need experience to get invited'; where were you when we we wiping for 6 hours a night, every night, while we were learning the raid?