Thread: Solo'ers suffer to much. Bring in 1 man end game instancing.

Let's bring this back to conversations with sentient beings capable of logical reasoning.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

I already did that with T2 F&F. My kin was a server first. Thanks for bringing up your useless point, though.

I take it your extremely useful point includes your kin and your server first completed in crafted/quest gear and we are talking about 12/12, not just you? (interesting level of knowledge btw) I take it also includes you completing the rest w/o ToO sets or FA as well? Please, more cherry-picking if you can, I am sure you can prove everything with one naked T2 XD

Originally Posted by Dorothir

No. No it doesn't. Most people end up going in without raid gear, anyway. Farming instances =/= raid gear.

Who said anything about farming? I mean except you, I know, I know, it's immediately unimportant then. Again, impressive level of knowledge, most people and all that. Niche much?

Originally Posted by Dorothir

I don't see what your point is but I can only assume it's as useless as your first.

Primary school level then:

- no alternative paths for raiders and bound crafting/Moors currency/deco trash/whatever
- no significant QQ from people who call themselves "raiders"

- no alternative path for soloers and equivalent of ToO armour
- significant QQ from people who call themselves "soloers"

Can be applied to the rest of my awful trash too you know.

- I am a soloer, I am unwilling/unable to raid.
- I expect Turbine to provide challenging content only few % will be able to complete ("soloing 3-mans" XD).

- I am a casual, I am unable to devote more time for anything but occasional raiding anymore.
- I demand Turbine provides me with alternative path to crafting/PvP currency/etc... wait, what? I don't think I do... should I?

Originally Posted by Dorothir

Stopped reading because I honestly can't be bothered to read the rest of your trash.

Primary school level again, just because I am so nice to lazy people.

- Why should this game be designed as a great consolation prize?
- Why should this game be designed with minuscule of people able and willing to solo "3-man istance" in mind? Are you going to pay for that out of your own pocket?

Originally Posted by Dorothir

Bizarre that even though I'm soloing group content, I still don't get better rewards than raiders doing raid content, despite the obvious difference in difficulting.

That's you're own choice. You like to criticise raiders for supposedly only raiding to raid... so I can turn around and ask: you want to do challenges just for gear rewards? People who take on group content solo do it for the pride they feel after they accomplish it. They do it to see if it can be done and to challenge themselves. I fail to see what point you're trying to make.

I'm missing the part where you've apparently countered what I've said. All I can see if you saying 'raiders raid to raid'.

Where did I say that? Do not put words in my mouth. You're arguing that raiders don't need raid gear to complete raids, yet I've seen people explain to you quite a few times that this is not the case for the higher tier and challenge modes. People have countered your argument many times and shown you that there is progression and that certain things are needed. Most raiders I know raid to see content finished and to beat challenges as they enjoy the feeling of a group accomplishing a hard task, but they also know they need to go in properly geared in order to beat the challenges. At least my raiding friends aren't raiding to raid. We're raiding to have fun and accomplish challenges.

I love that you think that best loot should be kept for raiders because they need it... to raid but soloers don't need any loot because they're just soloers. What if they do want to make challenges for themselves? Or want to go do some PvP? Or want to do T3 skirms? Or still complete 3 mans or 6 mans with friends?

You factually do not need raid gear to complete solo content in this game (and I do not include entering into content designed for a group by yourself as solo content.) If you want to pvp and get that gear, luckily Turbine has made that solo friendly. Hop on a warg and pve some maps. T3 skirms? I've done those in the past with instance gear. I wouldn't know about crafted gear being good enough as I've never attempted that. I don't bother with t3 now as I don't find the time/rewards ratio to be good (plus Turbine has screwed up the difficulty level regarding the tiers in this last one). You can run all 3/6 mans with crafted gear. Also Draigoch gear can be obtained through soloing.

Listen, I agree there should be something for solo players to work for. No I don't think it should be as good as raid gear as soloing and grouping cannot compare in my opinion. But I understand wanting some bling. Heck, it's why I started raiding, but luckily I ended up enjoying the process and accomplishments of raiding and mostly have the time to do so. There have been periods in my life where I couldn't raid, so I'm sympathetic to that, but during those times I didn't feel like I should be able to get raid gear without raiding. Something like the purple Orthanc set available through solo means would be pretty decent. I wish that Turbine would cater to all playstyles, but not at the expense of stomping all over mine or watering it down.

Originally Posted by Ferthcott

I take it your extremely useful point includes your kin and your server first completed in crafted/quest gear and we are talking about 12/12, not just you? (interesting level of knowledge btw) I take it also includes you completing the rest w/o ToO sets or FA as well? Please, more cherry-picking if you can, I am sure you can prove everything with one naked T2 XD



Who said anything about farming? I mean except you, I know, I know, it's immediately unimportant then. Again, impressive level of knowledge, most people and all that. Niche much?



Primary school level then:

- no alternative paths for raiders and bound crafting/Moors currency/deco trash/whatever
- no significant QQ from people who call themselves "raiders"

- no alternative path for soloers and equivalent of ToO armour
- significant QQ from people who call themselves "soloers"

Can be applied to the rest of my awful trash too you know.

- I am a soloer, I am unwilling/unable to raid.
- I expect Turbine to provide challenging content only few % will be able to complete ("soloing 3-mans" XD).

- I am a casual, I am unable to devote more time for anything but occasional raiding anymore.
- I demand Turbine provides me with alternative path to crafting/PvP currency/etc... wait, what? I don't think I do... should I?



Primary school level again, just because I am so nice to lazy people.

- Why should this game be designed as a great consolation prize?
- Why should this game be designed with minuscule of people able and willing to solo "3-man istance"? Are you going to pay for that out of your own pocket?

Didn't even get past the first sentence this time. Maybe try not filling your posts with stupidity? Maybe you'll get proper responses.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

Didn't even get past the first sentence this time. Maybe try not filling your posts with stupidity? Maybe you'll get proper responses.

Nah, here's a better idea: discussing this stuff with sober posters - not to mention you got what you wished for & on level you demanded after all, so complaints are pretty funny.

Originally Posted by Lothirieth

That's you're own choice. You like to criticise raiders for supposedly only raiding to raid... so I can turn around and ask: you want to do challenges just for gear rewards? People who take on group content solo do it for the pride they feel after they accomplish it. They do it to see if it can be done and to challenge themselves. I fail to see what point you're trying to make.

My point is I complete content that's more difficult than intended (for the challenge and the fun of it, not for pride). Yet I don't get anything for it. Raiders complete content as intended, yet seem to think only they deserve the best rewards because they've done something so amazing.

In short, my point is that raiders think they're better and more deserving than they are.

Originally Posted by Lothirieth

Where did I say that? Do not put words in my mouth.

Read the quote I was commenting on. You'll see what it boils down to is what I said: Raiders raid to help them raid.

Originally Posted by Lothirieth

You're arguing that raiders don't need raid gear to complete raids, yet I've seen people explain to you quite a few times that this is not the case for the higher tier and challenge modes. People have countered your argument many times and shown you that there is progression and that certain things are needed. Most raiders I know raid to see content finished and to beat challenges as they enjoy the feeling of a group accomplishing a hard task, but they also know they need to go in properly geared in order to beat the challenges.

No. People have explained to me quite a few times that they seem to think they need raid gear to do the raid but have to tell me what's needed from the raid for them to complete it. From what I can tell, nothing from the raid is actually NEEDED at all, it's just wanted, the same as soloers.

Originally Posted by Lothirieth

You factually do not need raid gear to complete solo content in this game (and I do not include entering into content designed for a group by yourself as solo content.) If you want to pvp and get that gear, luckily Turbine has made that solo friendly. Hop on a warg and pve some maps. T3 skirms? I've done those in the past with instance gear. I wouldn't know about crafted gear being good enough as I've never attempted that. I don't bother with t3 now as I don't find the time/rewards ratio to be good (plus Turbine has screwed up the difficulty level regarding the tiers in this last one). You can run all 3/6 mans with crafted gear. Also Draigoch gear can be obtained through soloing.

And you factually do not need raid gear to complete raids either.

Originally Posted by Lothirieth

Listen, I agree there should be something for solo players to work for. No I don't think it should be as good as raid gear as soloing and grouping cannot compare in my opinion. But I understand wanting some bling. Heck, it's why I started raiding, but luckily I ended up enjoying the process and accomplishments of raiding and mostly have the time to do so. There have been periods in my life where I couldn't raid, so I'm sympathetic to that, but during those times I didn't feel like I should be able to get raid gear without raiding. Something like the purple Orthanc set available through solo means would be pretty decent. I wish that Turbine would cater to all playstyles, but not at the expense of stomping all over mine or watering it down.

So you only think raiding deserves the best rewards because you think that doing things solo is easier than doing things in a raid? Out of curiousity, have you ever done any larger group content solo? I know you don't count doing that as solo but that's the sort of level I'd be looking for a comparison to T2 CM in Orth. If Turbine added a new solo path which had the difficulty of on level 3 mans as the top challenges, would you still think raiding was harder?

Nobody said Turbine had to stomp all over or water down raiding. People have just asked for a solo method of getting loot. If people still want to raid to have fun, they can. If people want to just log on and jump straight into a solo run, they can.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

If you want strict solo experience, then why did you start a MMORPG in the first place?

To be fair, I think Lotro is an exception due to the huge fan base Tolkien has. I'd never played any MMO before lotro, but I got this game because I wanted to explore Middle Earth! It's now drawn me in and I'm a proper gamer :P but I can see how others would prefer to stay solo in this game world.

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

Hmmm. I used to be exclusively a soloer. Didn't ask for group loot without grouping. Then became a casual grouper (GS+SH mostly), didn't ask for raid loot without raiding. Then became a raider. Didn't ask for PvP loot without going to moors (and didn't think well of PvP). Then I wanted PvP loot, so, well, went to the moors. Now am R7 in 6 weeks and have the armor I came for and am having fun. I don't ask that the game reward scheme be changed for my convenience -- such is foreign to my way of thinking.

This. I completely agree.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

In short, my point is that raiders think they're better and more deserving than they are.

No, just no.

Read the quote I was commenting on. You'll see what it boils down to is what I said: Raiders raid to help them raid.

See above.

No. People have explained to me quite a few times that they seem to think they need raid gear to do the raid but have to tell me what's needed from the raid for them to complete it. From what I can tell, nothing from the raid is actually NEEDED at all, it's just wanted, the same as soloers.

*sigh* You seem to be purposefully ignoring stuff. I think pigs will fly before any group completes stuff like Shadow t2 cm or plain ol' Saruman t2 with crafted gear and 2nd agers.

And you factually do not need raid gear to complete raids either.

This is just flat out wrong when we speak about the entire raid, challenges included. We're not talking t1 here. Of course that doesn't need raid gear. That goes for the very first bosses in all raids whether it be non-challenge mode during pre-OD times. They're designed to be done with lesser gear. It really feels like you're being purposefully difficult regarding this.

So you only think raiding deserves the best rewards because you think that doing things solo is easier than doing things in a raid? Out of curiousity, have you ever done any larger group content solo? I know you don't count doing that as solo but that's the sort of level I'd be looking for a comparison to T2 CM in Orth. If Turbine added a new solo path which had the difficulty of on level 3 mans as the top challenges, would you still think raiding was harder?

I will never think self-made challenges regarding solo players entering group instances are deserving reward. That's your own choice, your own made up challenge, for funsies and a sense of accomplishment. So this argument is moot for me. But yes, I have tried 3-mans solo and duoed 6-man content. It was fun and I felt good when we completed stuff, but never ever did I think I was entitled to a reward beyond my own sense of accomplishment. If something of this difficulty existed (it never will, niche is too small and too unfair as some classes are MUCH better at handling this sort of stuff) I think I'd still say raiding is worse as other people can screw things up for you. Like last night for my alliance as we were trying t2 cm shadow. Some runs I did my job perfectly but others didn't so we failed. There were a couple runs where I screwed it up for everyone else (having an off night :P).

I think we're to the point of having to agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

So you only think raiding deserves the best rewards because you think that doing things solo is easier than doing things in a raid? Out of curiousity, have you ever done any larger group content solo? I know you don't count doing that as solo but that's the sort of level I'd be looking for a comparison to T2 CM in Orth. If Turbine added a new solo path which had the difficulty of on level 3 mans as the top challenges, would you still think raiding was harder?
.

That's basically what the limlight dailies are. a 3-man that can be soloed. The answer I got earlier? "It's too hard for me. Thus, I do not think this is appropriate as content for ridiculously overpowered jewellery rewards because I myself cannot solo it."

You can also set the skirmishes to small fellowship. How convenient. You get better rewards there then from solo skirms I hear.

There are plenty of rewards you can get from being a solo player, that are of raid quality. You just keep saying NOPE NOPE NOPE to them. What exactly do you think we're getting that is better then what you can get from soloing?

Three armour sets, and a handful of useful bind on acquire agility jewellery? A ton of really bad cloaks? Because that's pretty much all that's in those raids you can't get. Seriously. A ton of agility jewellery and really bad cloaks. The armour sets are comparable to the draigoch armour you can get from soloing, except for two pieces.

And don't say first age because you can get first agers from lootboxes.

Soloers can get nearly everything raiders can get except the experience of the group content.

So I guess I don't get what you're saying. Are you saying that because you can't get the few pieces of jewellery you want from orthanc, you want something raiders can't get? Because raiders can solo too you know.

Or are you just jealous because you see something you don't have, and you want it?

Ignore this part because you don't care, you just want it your way:

And for the record, I would say raiding is still harder. The sheer act of trying to get 12 people to sign in on the same day at the same time in the mood to play. Then, you have to get them to do what they have to do. Retraiting for trash takes 5 minutes. Then you have to tell them what to do. Once.
Then Twice.
Then a third time to make it stick because while players A and B payed attention the first time, and G and D the second time, C, E, F weren't at their computers, and H, I J and K just weren't listening to a word you were saying.
And then, when you try and execute it, A and B forgot what they were supposed to do while waiting for everyone else to listen up and pay attention.
So, you wipe.
E, K and I go to the bathroom.
G goes to have a smoke.
Raid Leader gets frustrated with E, K, I and G.
A B C D F H and J now have to wait for E, K, I and G.
EVERYONE forgets what they were supposed to do.
Raid leader gets to go over it again.

YAY Everyone did what they were supposed to do.

Now we get to spend 10 minutes waiting for B, C, F and H to retrait, I and G to mysteriously AFK, and A over there is trying to shove as much food into their mouth as possible before everyone gets back because it's dinner time where they are and they are starving.

If it is farm night:
Yay, everyone knows what they should do, but B and D have something special to do tonight that they don't normally do, so Raid Leader explains.
3..2....1.... Go.
Fighting Fighting...UH OH! F pulled aggro and wiped half the group. F is told not to do that again.

Now this may or may not happen the next run, or something else may go wrong. A mechanic may bug out.

You get to do it again.

This may happen several times.

Then you finally get your prize.

If it is progression night:
Raid Leader reminds everyone what happened last night, or the way the fight should work and the way they want everyone to do something.
No one is paying attention.
Raid leader does it again. Some people are paying attention.
Ready Check.
3..2...1... A D and H, why didn't you do what I told you to do? "Uh... I forgot."
Repeat as necessary.
Frustration.
Annoyance at bugs in mechanics.
Annoyance at things not working the way you need them to.

One or more renditions of the Thoro Saves the Day rezz song.

1) come out of it 4 hours later completely exhausted, with no win.
2) come out of it four hours later completely exhausted, but happy because yay you finally got it!.



And that isn't even to mention the mechanics of every single class and what they can and have to do during each wing.




Solo Play:
pewpewpew. die.
That didn't work.
Try something else.
pewpewpew oh hey that worked.

Originally Posted by Lothirieth

This is just flat out wrong when we speak about the entire raid, challenges included. We're not talking t1 here. Of course that doesn't need raid gear. That goes for the very first bosses in all raids whether it be non-challenge mode during pre-OD times. They're designed to be done with lesser gear. It really feels like you're being purposefully difficult regarding this.

Please, give me a list of raid loot that raiders need to complete Orthanc T2 (and CM is applicable). Not the word 'need'.

Originally Posted by Lothirieth

I will never think self-made challenges regarding solo players entering group instances are deserving reward. That's your own choice, your own made up challenge, for funsies and a sense of accomplishment. So this argument is moot for me. But yes, I have tried 3-mans solo and duoed 6-man content. It was fun and I felt good when we completed stuff, but never ever did I think I was entitled to a reward beyond my own sense of accomplishment. If something of this difficulty existed (it never will, niche is too small and too unfair as some classes are MUCH better at handling this sort of stuff) I think I'd still say raiding is worse as other people can screw things up for you. Like last night for my alliance as we were trying t2 cm shadow. Some runs I did my job perfectly but others didn't so we failed. There were a couple runs where I screwed it up for everyone else (having an off night :P).

So what it boils down to is not that people deserve good loot from raids because it's hard in terms of the actual raid but because of the chance for human error. I can sort of understand that, since I can't even get any T2 content done anymore because of the limited number of good players I have to raid with. Which is why I'd look for a solo method. One in which I only have to rely on my self and my own level of skill. I hate being limited from content because of others and having no way to change it.

Originally Posted by Lothirieth

I think we're to the point of having to agree to disagree.

I'd rather I could make my opinion on this more obvious or easy to understand than just throw it to the side and say 'I give up'. I'm not particularly good at explanations.

Originally Posted by Cuurth_pTeele2

That's basically what the limlight dailies are. a 3-man that can be soloed. The answer I got earlier? "It's too hard for me. Thus, I do not think this is appropriate as content for ridiculously overpowered jewellery rewards because I myself cannot solo it."

I actually solo'd everything there but the big trolls (their corruptions were too much). One of the more fun things in the new region.

Originally Posted by Cuurth_pTeele2

You can also set the skirmishes to small fellowship. How convenient. You get better rewards there then from solo skirms I hear.

Even in a raid skirm, you don't get better rewards. Have you been into a skirm lately? It's pathetic with marks/meds.

Originally Posted by Cuurth_pTeele2

There are plenty of rewards you can get from being a solo player, that are of raid quality. You just keep saying NOPE NOPE NOPE to them. What exactly do you think we're getting that is better then what you can get from soloing?

At what point have I said no to them?

What raiders get that's better are symbols and clasps. I wouldn't even mind if they just added them to a barter vendor and forced me to solo some FE/Pits for them.

Originally Posted by Cuurth_pTeele2

And don't say first age because you can get first agers from lootboxes.

Good joke. You can get stat tomes from instances too!

Originally Posted by Cuurth_pTeele2

So I guess I don't get what you're saying. Are you saying that because you can't get the few pieces of jewellery you want from orthanc, you want something raiders can't get? Because raiders can solo too you know.

Not all of them can. True soloing requires something different to raiding.

Originally Posted by Cuurth_pTeele2

Or are you just jealous because you see something you don't have, and you want it?

Jealousy implies I feel an emotion to it. I'd just like a way of soloing to get the same loot.

Originally Posted by Cuurth_pTeele2

Ignore this part because you don't care, you just want it your way:

Ok.

Originally Posted by Cuurth_pTeele2

And for the record, I would say raiding is still harder. The sheer act of trying to get 12 people to sign in on the same day at the same time in the mood to play. Then, you have to get them to do what they have to do. Retraiting for trash takes 5 minutes. Then you have to tell them what to do. Once.

SNIP

Yes. Raiding is only percieved harder because people are incompetent. That doesn't mean the content is actually harder, it just means that you're having to rely on other people.

Originally Posted by Cuurth_pTeele2

Solo Play:
pewpewpew. die.
That didn't work.
Try something else.
pewpewpew oh hey that worked.

True solo play is a lot different to this. 3 mans, old raids, old instances and T3 skirms are harder than just pewpewpew. I know some people don't view 'personal challenges' (or true soloing as I call it) as solo but it's still one person doing difficult content.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

So you only think raiding deserves the best rewards because you think that doing things solo is easier than doing things in a raid? Out of curiousity, have you ever done any larger group content solo? I know you don't count doing that as solo but that's the sort of level I'd be looking for a comparison to T2 CM in Orth. If Turbine added a new solo path which had the difficulty of on level 3 mans as the top challenges, would you still think raiding was harder?

Nobody said Turbine had to stomp all over or water down raiding. People have just asked for a solo method of getting loot. If people still want to raid to have fun, they can. If people want to just log on and jump straight into a solo run, they can.

If solo content were created with 3-man difficulty in mind, would I still think that raiding was harder? Yes, for a couple reasons:

1) Coordinating with other people creates an additional level of difficulty and complexity that doesn't exist when doing something by oneself.

The 4x100 relay is more difficult than the 100m dash, because of the seemingly simple added component of passing the baton; the best golfer in the world can play a perfect tournament and win it, while the best basketball or football player in the world can play a perfect game and still lose if his teammates don't perform adequately. In LOTRO terms: if I play my class perfectly while soloing, I'm very likely to succeed, while it's entirely possible for me to play perfectly in a raid and yet fail to beat the boss (you've mentioned this very factor yourself as one of your frustrations with raiding). Conversely, the rest of my raid can perform perfectly, but if I make an error (not noticing an eye and getting tossed off the tower against Saruman, for example), I can cost 11 other people a Challenge Mode victory.

2) Somewhat related to point #1: raid fights have mechanics that simply don't matter or can't exist in solo content, no matter how challenging. Multiple corruptions that need to be removed in a short period of time, stuns that need to be avoided, spacing between players, spacing between NPCs, aggro, aggro swaps, the need for high DPS, strong tanking, and top-end healing all at once, debuffs that may affect others around you, the need to CC some mobs, et al.

----

Also, I think that it's completely infeasible to design one-size-fits-all challenging solo content. What you or I might consider challenging, a well-played and geared Warden would probably laugh at while another class might find it impossible. So do we then ask the developers to make nine separate challenging solo instances, each one playable by only one class? So far Turbine has done a pretty good job making content that is accessible to all classes; sure, some quests or skirmishes might be easier on one class than another, but they're all easily doable by all classes. Even the class quests in LOTRO are accessible to all classes, save some class-specific landscape drops and mobs - anyone can go to CD, Uru, or a Moria instance and help another class with their class quest.

Finally, while I commend you for trying group content solo, you're still doing group content instead of solo content. I'm sure you've noticed that it's harder than solo content. You're also already getting more of a reward - you're getting the rewards that three people would get all to yourself (or the marks/medallions normally awarded for 3-man content), just like the people that 6-man raid bosses are rewarded for their self-created challenge by getting a larger share of the loot than they would if they'd brought 12 people. You're not proving that solo content is harder than raid content; all you're showing is that doing content intended for a larger group can be more challenging than content intended for your particular group size (in this case, one).

I would laugh so hard if you could unlock the Orthanc armor sets by soloing the 3-mans on T1. Imagine all of the Champs and Wardens walking around in solo'd Orthanc gears while hunters whine about it!

99% of the time, solo content is easy for everyone because bumping the difficulty even a small amount might make that content pretty darn difficult for certain classes.

I honestly can't remotely imagine Turbine spending the resources on making solo content that's difficult, but possible, for every class in the game. That would be a huge money sink that would likely only appease a small niche of players.

I really do feel for people who'd *like* to be able to do group content but can't for whatever reason, but if you're able to do group content and choose not to, I really don't feel like you ought to have any sense of entitlement for the rewards that come with it.

Originally Posted by Gylve

I honestly can't remotely imagine Turbine spending the resources on making solo content that's difficult, but possible, for every class in the game. That would be a huge money sink that would likely only appease a small niche of players.

The concept has been tried before. Age of Conan did solo player endgame dungeons adapted to 1, 2, or 3 man groups. High challenge, high reward. The difficulty was nerfed down to absurd lows in a month, due to the incessant complaints about the difficulty. At that point, they became prime gold farming spots... so the gold farmers did.

Sometimes, the things people say they want have nothing to do with what they're actually looking for.

SWTOR is designed from the ground up with the soloist in mind. The solo story was their design focus from the beginning, and nothing is terribly hard to obtain in-game (healers can comfortably solo most group content while leveling up, none of the top-tier endgame content is harder than version 1 of Roots of Fangorn, and endgame gear can be had via dailies). They are switching gears toward group content fast, as they are hemorrhaging subs.

Compelling solo content is always good, but not as an emphasis. That's simply not the stuff that a sustainable MMO is made of.

Originally Posted by Ferthcott

Good one. So basically all you said can be boiled down to "this is my PoV"? Because you are right - of course I don't care - because your PoV is neither particularly interesting, original nor it is the actual issue I have with your post (which you should already know having bothered to read...). Your claims about "content making players struggle without raiding gear" are. Your (baseless) complaints "devs design/will design hard content so raiding people stop QQing" are. Your inability/unwillingness to type in actual examples is. I focused on those particular parts and you failed to deliver anything that could be called remotely specific, chose to hide behind "personal reality" instead. Good news: this game defines one reality when it comes to gear: it is based on numbers. And you don't get your own numbers, we all share them.

I am not interested in progression topic at this point - other posters handled it well already. I am not interested whether someone plays with one hand and one eye. We are not speaking about people with disabilities, small children etc, unless you state openly that this is the level solo rewards should be tailored for.

Do you really want someone to fraps skirmishes, Galtrev dailies, LG troll w/ 65lv LI, crafted/Draigoch set and no jewellery, while spamming 5-7 skills? The only significant change = fights are taking longer. Do you really think such video would contain some "l33t skillz", impossible to imagine for extremely casual player? So what exactly is your reality and why should it be a reason for changing the game if it is so ... vague?

My reality is that there is no (repeatable) solo content/solo instances where I can work myself towards best (solo) weapons/jewellery/armour in game in any reasonable way. ALL the best items are hidden behind group content, period. You can try strawman all you like saying "you can buy this and that from AH" or "this single jewellery piece is actually better" or something like that, but it's just dodging the subject. And buying things from AH is NOT any kind of content.

Let's try once more:

I want (repeatable/challenging) SOLO content that eventually rewards me The Best Solo Item Set of the game: something that gives me something to do and a way to progress my characters. I want a chance for First Age LI's to drop. After that I can work towards creating a good solo LI's for me. Someone already said "you can get 1st ages out of Lootboxes". I reply "You can also win the lottery, so don't complain you are not a millionare, just go and play lottery more and don't whine! You CAN win the lottery!"

NO-ONE is wanting anything for free. NO-ONE is wanting anything on silver platter. EVERYONE is wanting to improve their characters regardless of their playstyle. And if person A has something and if person B gets that something too, in a computer game, it really shouldn't effect person A in any way.

I really don't get it when soloers want good solo set that has a bit lower but not too much lower stats than raiders/groupers, some raiders/groupers come to yell that soloers do not deserve that. It's just sad.

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

text

While I do sympathise you I am afraid that things like this wont be ever implemented by Turbine, because it looks like they really have resources only on the most basic things.

They want to produce content that will keep players busy for the longest time.

If they make too easy solo content where you can get top tier gear faster than in raids then in two month after release everyone will have maxxed gear and in three month they will leave the game because they dont have to progress anymore.

If they make easy solo content but gate it behind massive grind (the way they do it now), then again only a tiny part of the player base will take this as an option.

If they make hard solo content, then they really need to do 9 different instances for every class. This requires long design, balance and just imagine QQs that will start every day because "champs instance are easier that RKs, fix it" and so on.

It is so much easier to design just one raid and gate things behind it.

If you look at other sections of the game - PvMP, housing, hobbies - they are all being ignored for a long time just because Turbine have resources only on core parts of the game. Now I dont think it will change anytime soon.

Originally Posted by Chupakabara

While I do sympathise you I am afraid that things like this wont be ever implemented by Turbine, because it looks like they really have resources only on the most basic things.

They want to produce content that will keep players busy for the longest time.

If they make too easy solo content where you can get top tier gear faster than in raids then in two month after release everyone will have maxxed gear and in three month they will leave the game because they dont have to progress anymore.

If they make easy solo content but gate it behind massive grind (the way they do it now), then again only a tiny part of the player base will take this as an option.

If they make hard solo content, then they really need to do 9 different instances for every class. This requires long design, balance and just imagine QQs that will start every day because "champs instance are easier that RKs, fix it" and so on.

It is so much easier to design just one raid and gate things behind it.

If you look at other sections of the game - PvMP, housing, hobbies - they are all being ignored for a long time just because Turbine have resources only on core parts of the game. Now I dont think it will change anytime soon.

Yes, unfortunately this is probably how it is. It seems odd that they have said how well RoI sold and all that, and how they are going to release more content than they have used to etc etc... But still, we have been in silence for a some time now. Just check the dev tracker and you see mostly store and lottery discussions and something like that.

I have been thinking that maybe it's because they are working so hard with Rohan expansion (and that's probably true). But we know almost nothing about that yet, except it will have mounted combat. Some (a big actually) part of me hopes that when the announcements begin, they will reveal that they are giving us that "1 man end game instancing" in some form, maybe allow our skirmish soldier inside those instances (for the very least) or something like that. But another part of me is saying "no, that won't happen. They continue the same safe path in future as well". I guess we have to wait to see which part of me is right

Originally Posted by Dorothir

At what point have I said no to them?

What raiders get that's better are symbols and clasps. I wouldn't even mind if they just added them to a barter vendor and forced me to solo some FE/Pits for them.

So what exactly is your problem then? Symbols and Clasps are tradeable, so you can barter for them with ingame gold, which you can achieve by bartering seals/medaillons/marks (all of which are easily available for solo players) for Scrolls of Greater Empowerment and/or Worn Symbols of Celembrimbor and then putting these for sale. You you actually can solo FE/Pits to get yourself symbols and clasps - no magic involved. Besides getting a fair share of gold out of the chests, you also get a couple of sealed relics which you can also put on sale. I don't see your issue. It's not out of reach.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

So what exactly is your problem then? Symbols and Clasps are tradeable, so you can barter for them with ingame gold, which you can achieve by bartering seals/medaillons/marks (all of which are easily available for solo players) for Scrolls of Greater Empowerment and/or Worn Symbols of Celembrimbor and then putting these for sale. You you actually can solo FE/Pits to get yourself symbols and clasps - no magic involved. Besides getting a fair share of gold out of the chests, you also get a couple of sealed relics which you can also put on sale. I don't see your issue. It's not out of reach.

I'm not a fan of massive grinding, which is precisely what me making hundred of gold would take.

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

My reality is that there is no (repeatable) solo content/solo instances where I can work myself towards best (solo) weapons/jewellery/armour in game in any reasonable way. ALL the best items are hidden behind group content, period.

I still don't understand how limlight dailies is NOT a solo challenge. It's perfectly soloable, by any class. Plus, it's repeatable.

You can try strawman all you like saying "you can buy this and that from AH" or "this single jewellery piece is actually better" or something like that, but it's just dodging the subject. And buying things from AH is NOT any kind of content.

So, what are you trying to say here? That you want something that only you can get? That what you want to get you want to be only yours? And by saying something is better, why don't you want it? You said you wanted to improve your character, right? Is this again a "I want something you can't get" thing?

I want (repeatable/challenging) SOLO content that eventually rewards me The Best Solo Item Set of the game: something that gives me something to do and a way to progress my characters. I want a chance for First Age LI's to drop. After that I can work towards creating a good solo LI's for me. Someone already said "you can get 1st ages out of Lootboxes". I reply "You can also win the lottery, so don't complain you are not a millionare, just go and play lottery more and don't whine! You CAN win the lottery!"

So, you want something, that you can only get by completing and the highest difficulties of the most difficult raid in the game, because you solo? Let me ask you: if soloers can get first agers from doing solo content, what do raiders get? I said it before at some point in this thread I believe: the only thing we get that is better then what you can get solo in that raid is a handful of useful agility drops, some really bad cloaks, and a first age.

Why can't raiders have something that is just theirs? That's what I have a hard time soaking in this solo gear thread. You want to take away everything that gives us a reason to group you, just so you don't have to. There is barely anything in that raid, loot-wise, that is even comparable to the limilght jewellery. Every single pocket item? COMPLETELY worthless because of the limlight pocket. There is maybe 1 or 2 pieces of might jewellery, if that. And it's all worthless compared to limlight. There are a few tactical pieces of jewellery, but again, limlight is far superiour to most of the stuff, except maybe some of the stuff in the shadow/saruman challenges. All of our raiders can do solo content. We could get all of our jewellery and stuff from those solo encounters, but then what? We beat the content once, twice for deeds, and then we do what? Twiddle our thumbs for new content? There has to be a reason to do these challenges other then deeds. Right now, the few good gear we get from orthanc is it.

First Agers are 1 guaranteed for each Challenge mode chest, and a CHANCE for one in a plain T2 wing. We have to roll against everyone else in the raid.
This is our consolation prize for beating some of the hardest content in the game.

Why in Middle Earth should you be able to get it after doing X amount of Daily/Biweekly/Weekly solo content, that would probably take a half hour a night, for however long you had to do it for? Furthermore, why would anyone ever raid after they've beaten the content once? My raiding kin has spent a whole raid week, of four hour nights, on a SINGLE trash pull. Assume we did it five times that week. That's TWENTY HOURS of trying to beat ONE trash pull. Imagine it. Then imagine, once you finally get past that trash pull, having it figured out, know all the mechanics for it, and being able to account for whatever mistakes a SINGLE PERSON might make that will WIPE THE ENTIRE RAID, you have to spend a week or more on the BOSS. THAT is Tier 2 orthanc. You have to rely on your entire raid to know exactly what they're doing, and that they won't make one mistake, that will cause you to have to try again. And again. And Again. FOR HOURS.


I bet you, that if I said "Sure Turbine, go ahead and let these soloers get what they want. BUT You have to make it so that it will take an average of 40 hours to be able to beat the FIRST TIME but, after that it could take as little as 3-4 hours to be able to beat the second and every other time, and mistakes such as an errant autoattack hitting a CC'd mob, not removing a single corruption, not avoiding a single mechanic, will kill them, or very nearly kill them any time they do this instance. Plus, they have to do it for 8 weeks to be able to get that special piece of item they want." every single one of you soloers would whine that it is "impossible or "too much work". Well that's what raiders go through for their gear. You don't see us complaining often that something is impossible (unless it actually is because Turbine can't seem to be able to make a mechanic work correctly like in Saruman T2C or do math like in Fire and Frost T2C). The simple fact is is that soloers want what we have without the amount of work that it takes to get it.

I really don't get it when soloers want good solo set that has a bit lower but not too much lower stats than raiders/groupers, some raiders/groupers come to yell that soloers do not deserve that. It's just sad.

And that's the problem isn't it? Half of you in this thread want gear that is solo gear, that you can get through solo means. The other half want exactly the same things you get from doing the group content without having to group up to do it.
There is plenty of gear between the draigoch armour set and the limlight dailies for solo players, that can be achieved through solo play. I think everyone in our raiding group has their main-stat limlight jewellery, and some still sport draigoch.


To sum up: What to raiders get for all their hours of troubles? Why should soloers get the stuff that the raiders get without putting the same amount of work into it?

Originally Posted by Dorothir

You're severely misinformed. I'm in the first camp.

If that was the case, how comes I find posts like this one:

Originally Posted by Dorothir

I'd just like a way of soloing to get the same loot.

I'm sure I can find more quotes like this.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

That's a false analogy. Instead, it would be like you doing solo/raiding and getting the same loot as PvP. Claiming that I'm asking for loot without effort is just wrong.

I didn't mean that you want the loot without effort. You are just not willing to actually bring the effort that is required for that specific loot. While you want to substitute it with another type of effort, it's just not how the game was designed to be. Why should every piece of loot be available through any kind of play style?

Originally Posted by Dorothir

People are asking for an additional method of play to be added, specifically hard solo content that gives good rewards.

I'm all for that. Give Solo Players some challenging content and add good loot - there's nothing wrong about that. Just don't give them the exact same loot. The loot may be of the exact same quality (and actually should be, if the solo challenges are hard enough, but please not the exact same pieces, as would actually lead to everything being available by soloing (which is for sure not the intended playstyle of any MMORPG).

Originally Posted by Dorothir

And yet we're asking for a solo way to get better for the same work. It just doesn't mean we have to rely on other people.

But you aren't actually doing the same work. Organizing a group/raid is a work you don't do. Leading a raid/group is a work you don't do. Coordinating whatever your role in the group/raid is, is a work you don't do. Grouping/Raiding is a group effort and you don't bring any group effort by soloing. I'm not saying grouping/raiding is necessarily harder than soloing, but you just cannot compare once against the other. And ignoring the difficulty you still don't do the same work.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

Then you're a sucker for punishment and you can leave us sensible people to actually asking for a fun way for rewards.

You get enough comparable loot by soloing, so the rewards are right there for you. And if you want that one specific item so badly, then you should probably just take the 'punishment' and do what the game wants you to do?

Originally Posted by Dorothir

No one said it should be solo centric. It should have 4 end game paths you can go for: Raid, PvP, Solo, Groups. Obviously you aren't forced to only pick one, you can do what you like. Your imagining that people are asking for solo to take over is absurd.

Yes, we habe 4 distinct endgame paths and all I say is, all 4 ways should have their distinct loot. But all you want is one path (soloing) to have access to ALL loot. See, how you ask for solo to get the edge?

Originally Posted by Dorothir

No. Because it's a game we'd like another way to play.

That's kind of absurd. You started a MMORPG game, so it should be pretty clear from the start, that you will have to partake in grouping/raiding activities to see all of content/loot. That's neither a secret nor a surprise. If you insist on restricting yourself to solo, than you've got to live with the limitations that come with this decision. Asking to have everything handed out to soloers is just a bold demand.
If you bought yourself a Beat'em up game, though you prefer Racing Games, do you demand the game to be changed, because you like to play it another way? If a game doesn't fit to your playstyle, than you are better off searching for a game that actually suits your playstyle, rather than demanding the game to be changed? This IS a MMORPG game and it's not meant to be soloed all the way. Period.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

Real issues as a reason for not being able to do certain game stuff =/= your stupid analogies of real life situations applied to a game.

Why would real life analogies not fit to this situation? Cause they are just spot on and the only way to deny them is to say it's a game, because you cannot logically counter them?

Then here we go:
Every game has rules to be followed and every game is designed with certain playstyles in mind. Additionally most games have different rewards for different things.

Let's for example have a look at any kind of Xbox game (e.g. a Shooter) that features online play. There will be achievements for certain game modes and there will also be achievements for certain online game modes. Now you come up and say "Hey, I don't have online access, but I still want all of the online achievements to be available to me" ... see how that is just plain wrong? Or you say "I play online but I just don't have enough competent people to win 5 games of Team Deathmatch in a row ... can't you please make this achievement available to me by playing one chapter of the Single Player Campaign?" - no they can't, because it's a Multiplayer achievement, it was designed with multiplayer in mind. You also wouldn't ask "Hey, I can't stand King of the Hill, can you please make the associated achievements available in Deatmatch"?

Or let's have a look at any kind of Beat'em Up with a host of different characters. Finishing the game with each and every character on the hardest difficulty will yield special ending sequences for every character and you want to see all of them. The only way to see all of them is to actually do what is required to see them: You need to beat the game with each and every character on the hardest difficulty. What you are asking for basically boils down to "I don't have time to get used to every character or I just don't like certain character's, so can you please make every ending sequence available by beating the game over and over again with just one character?"

Games are designed so that the require certain efforts to earn the associated achievements - Lotro is not different in any way. There is nothing that needs to fixed or to be looked at. You don't want to bring the required effort (or prefer to bring another effort instead), well, then you cannot earn that specific achievement. That's how it is. Take it or leave it. No real life analogies used.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

Yes. Raiding is only percieved harder because people are incompetent. That doesn't mean the content is actually harder, it just means that you're having to rely on other people.

That's just silly and plain wrong. Raid Content is harder. Try beating a raid solo to get the picture. The content IS in fact harder, that's why it requires 12 people to be beaten in the first place. It may not be harder for each and every individual in that specific raid as opposed to beating certain solo challenges would be for that person, but the content itself is harder, that cannot be denied.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

True solo play is a lot different to this. 3 mans, old raids, old instances and T3 skirms are harder than just pewpewpew. I know some people don't view 'personal challenges' (or true soloing as I call it) as solo but it's still one person doing difficult content.

While I agree that 'personal challenges' can be very hard, I don't see how that helps with the loot discussion. Posing a challenge on yourself is one thing, but the encounters that you solo this way have never been designed to be soloed. Why should an old lvl 50 raid all of a suddedn drop lvl 75 raid items, just because a geared out lvl 75 warden/champion decides to rock that place solo? Loot is always associated with the challenge that the content was actually designed for and not with the challenge that someone makes out of it. And associating gear with those solo challenges will also mean, that wardens/champions will get the best of it, as they are by far more capable of solo efforts than lets say a Hunter.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

I'm not a fan of massive grinding, which is precisely what me making hundred of gold would take.

Where's the difference in massive grinding FE/Pits to directly get that piece of equip or massive grinding to make the gold to get that piece of equip?

And as a hint, getting that raid armor also involves grinding for the raiding part of the community. You don't get your equip by running Orthanc one time.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

Where's the difference in massive grinding FE/Pits to directly get that piece of equip or massive grinding to make the gold to get that piece of equip?

And as a hint, getting that raid armor also involves grinding for the raiding part of the community. You don't get your equip by running Orthanc one time.

I wish I could keep giving you +rep vodomir.

In a single day, I have seen a kinmate run foundry six times, twice on each of his level capped toons (he has three), once each on T1 and T2, just so he could have enough seals for a single piece of gear for the raid that night.

On another day I've seen him run Stht/NCF for 5 hours after he got his next first ager, so he could have enough ixp runes and relics for it.

Another of my raidmates (he's not actually kin but we treat him like kin), has probably spent 30 hours in foundry/roots trying to get enough star-lit crystals for his LIs.


No, just because you run the raid one time doesn't mean you get everything from it. You put a lot of time and effort into it.

It is (again) nowhere near issues I raised, guess I can shrug @ difficulty claims after all :/

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

My reality is that there is no (repeatable) solo content/solo instances where I can work myself towards best (solo) weapons/jewellery/armour in game in any reasonable way.

I do not consider AH or boxes "content", but that's the thing: it is still access, at least nobody is forced to choose Store path (yet). The fact there is no new content where we can mash some buttons to get more stuff is a given. But on the other hand - if the difference between purple and teal LG jewels and the fact LG dailies are gated behind one pug is a game-breaker justifying demand for new batch of content, then we are playing different solo LOTRO indeed, so oh, well... you were right after all :/

Unless 100% solo path not being 99,5% has some profound meaning for you. And that unberarable 0,5% includes landscape pug in LG. Why is it even a principle in the first place?

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

And if person A has something and if person B gets that something too, in a computer game, it really shouldn't effect person A in any way.

We can turn it around you know. The fact only person A has something in-game is not exactly affecting person B by itself. So both sides can use the same pointless rhetorics, yay.

Also, it is not entirely true, I mentioned "grey crowd case" as a way your wish could negatively influence gameplay experience of others if you offer exactly the same level of rewards with solo path. So here we go, person A finds out person C decided to take "the least resistance" path and person A is more and more stuck with your option meeting less and less people willing to sacrifice their time. Person B is happy. Person C complains "there is nothing else to achieve". Person A is bored. Person A & C blame Turbine (no new content, no people to play with), usual target anyway.

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

I want a chance for First Age LI's to drop.

We all got FA-lite with crystals, right? Don't tell me soloer has lower chance - imagine rolling against a group for the 10th time. And the difference between crystal SA and normal/crystal FA is getting rather small - is that REALLY not enough? So Turbine actually does something (though I doubt making solers happy was the main goal, thinking about another "S"), they provided solers with 3rd agers first. Then they added 2nd agers months later. Now they allow to upgrade 2nd agers. That feels like progression to me, are you unhappy they are the ones setting the pace?

Do you just want one *more* tier of equipment without changing level cap? Funny thing is, I like the general idea, definitely not a fan of new levels in current state of the game, I wouldn't even mind some sort of endless upgrades but with diminished return. But why gear, why one MORE set... is there not enough of that already? :/ Can't we have something else that does not feel like "I want to have what others have, because they have" & weird case of social engineering? Something that is useful mostly in solo-play just like many of ToO bonuses are shining outside of solo? And preferably something the biggest group of people would play for, not just "100% solo" niche? Again, let's even disable this new stuff in a group, might help to balance raids anyway...

But if you really, really want homogenised rewards that can replace ToO set or basically kill what's left of pathetic difference in terms of jewellery, you might want to offer some sort of a tweak to mitigate a problem first. And choose something:

Demand:
1. set of gear that offers another upgrade to stats/effectiveness
2. set of instances that provides a way to acquire such gear
*3. a set of instances that provide a challenge for the owner of such gear (T2/T2C? unless you do not expect significant degradation of challenges after acquiring your gear and are happy with 1 & 2 - wait, not affecting the challenge level? Then what's the point of such gear?)
**4 no new set of instances, reworked skirmishes/stuff.


Challenge level:
A. High enough only niche of players can complete it (w/o raid gear, hah ), but obviously it requires much more money that niche provides. So everyone else pay so extreme minority is happy and for stuff that is less accessible than pug ToO, usual beaten-to-death ISP/PC/stuff-exceptions noted. By the way, we ARE speaking about paid content, right?
B. Same as above, class customisation added so more people than champs/wardens can brag about usual stuff. More players, but even more money.
C. Low enough only usual niche complains about difficulty. "Grey crowd" problem arises. C is something A/B can very well turn into after massive QQ of "So I paid for this new instance but it is impossible to complete!" customers.
D. Irrelevant, completeable for most, massive grind/RNG influence so it is not completed "in a week", even with current xpac/year it is rather quick.
E. Perfect. Balanced. Peace on Earth.
F. Daemon Souls, Witcher, etc. - sadly no LOTR-games. But designed for solo experience & certain challenge from the start.

Or feel free to add your own points. "I want challenging content" is not exactly enough...

Originally Posted by Dorothir

I'm not a fan of massive grinding, which is precisely what me making hundred of gold would take.

If you think raiding is not a massive grinding, then... I'll just laugh. I'd love to see someone spend 2 months in one instance alone, every night, 4-5 hours. The rest of the 11 people is the only thing that keeps me personally doing it.

Either way, the inequality of different classes is the main reason I oppose to the idea of some sort of solo end-game dungeons.

Talking about gear - I think you can get purple Orthanc gear without actually doing it, I think, and you certianly don't need to do group content to get seals and medallions. If anything, overall it would take less time to grind a piece out than it used to to get a BG piece!

Or is the problem in that no instance has a shiny colourful 'SOLO SPECIAL' tag on it?

I stand by what I and many have said. Very good gear is acquirable through solo play. Very difficult challenges are there in solo play. I guess I'm just active enough to go look for such challenges myself (which would be the essence of true soloing, no?) rather than expect them to be handed to me on a silver plate.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

I'm not a fan of massive grinding, which is precisely what me making hundred of gold would take.

I'm confused. You don't have time/don't want to work for the gear (it takes 3 or 4 days of normal gameplay to get 100g if you're set on it). You don't have time to do raids due to RL. What would you use the gear for if you don't have time to play the game?
To me it sounds like you want the top of the line (preferably better than raiders) gear without doing anything for it.

Originally Posted by Cuurth_pTeele2

There is maybe 1 or 2 pieces of might jewellery, if that.

have to disappoint you. There's no might jewelry worth using (at least for a champ) in Orthanc. LG + skirmishes over the whole line

I need find the review thread @Tentonhammer that explain's lotro's reasoning on solo player loot, instant's and raiding steup's.
But main thing is. if your a soloer the gear is available for your game style. If your fellowship an such the tier gear is for ur skill lvl tier 1 being newbie an novice gamer's that are into fellowship play casual, rp grouping and such. Gear is better to reward those that are willing to put in the effort fellowshiping.
Tier2 is for more advanced player's. and again rewards are better for there effort.
thing is there's 100's of thread's about the develop of the game anymore being it's be out 5 yr's..lol..


Just to get it out there for those that may not know. Tentonhammer.com has a lotro tab, that hold's all the old development dev. preview's an review's, as well as player review's info.. All the way back to prelaunch of the game. That cover's alot of question's and issue's i often see posted in our forum's.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

I'm not a fan of massive grinding, which is precisely what me making hundred of gold would take.

The amount of time and effort required to get 100 gold is very significantly less than the time and effort put in by a member of a raiding team learning and then repeating a raid such as to get a 1A symbol or (even more so) a clasp.

This is the flaw in the argument being made here. The gap between the gear available to soloers and that available to raiders is far less than the gap in the time and effort and difficulty of the content raiders have to beat to get it. Great River crafted gear and Limlight Jewelry is 95% as good as the Orthanc raid armour and the few worthwhile jewelry drops. Skraids - largely a faceroll - reward items in many cases as good as or better than Orthanc. Yet Orthanc is so much harder than anything else in the game that it barely even *is* the same game. The stronger argument is for Orthanc gear to be *buffed* not for alternative paths to gear of the same quality.

There has been hard solo content in the past - Death From Below, Attack At Dawn and Icy Crevasse - and the wailing over the difficulty of these could be heard all the way from Ered Luin to Mordor. The truth is that while I don't doubt that some people would appreciate hard solo content with commensurate rewards, a majority (including some in this thread) simply want uber gear without having to do anything too difficult or time-consuming to get it. Turbine have already gone a very long way to catering for this mindset - the rep gear available in RoI is a quantum leap ahead of anything available before while the crafted gear is the best since SoA - so to read about soloers being forced to settle for "scraps" really sticks in my craw.

All that said, there already is an in-game mechanism for rewarding tough solo content - T2 and T3 skirmishes. These should drop tokens of some sort barterable for armour sets at least on a par with Great River/Skraid gear (but with set bonuses). The lack of rewards commensurate with the difficulty of T2 and T3 skirmishes is very poor.

Originally Posted by Cuurth_pTeele2

I still don't understand how limlight dailies is NOT a solo challenge. It's perfectly soloable, by any class. Plus, it's repeatable.

Apparently you didn't understand what you quoted. "My reality is that there is no (repeatable) solo content/solo instances where I can work myself towards best (solo) weapons/jewellery/armour in game in any reasonable way. ALL the best items are hidden behind group content, period." But I'll answer you anyway. 1. Limlight dailies are not solo content (see my quote). 2. It for sure is not "perfectly soloable by any class", at least not for those using solo gear only, and for certain not for "average soloer" who usually do solo content. 3. How does one gain that best solo weapons/jewellery/armour by doing Limlight dailies? All that gives you is reputation and tokens. Neither of those two is enough for those teal pieces. And purple pieces are available without touching LG content (those baubles are worse than Theodred items btw, at least for soloer).

Originally Posted by Cuurth_pTeele2

So, what are you trying to say here? That you want something that only you can get?

No, that's not what I am saying at all. Please read again.

Originally Posted by Cuurth_pTeele2

Why can't raiders have something that is just theirs?

By all means, you can have your raid gear. I want comparable solo gear, simple as that.

Originally Posted by Cuurth_pTeele2

Why in Middle Earth should you be able to get it after doing X amount of Daily/Biweekly/Weekly solo content, that would probably take a half hour a night, for however long you had to do it for?

Once again, I did not want "raid gear", but still this amazes me. Seems like no matter how long does it take, soloers STILL don't deserve anything that raiders have. Then again, I shouldn't be amazed about this comment

Originally Posted by Cuurth_pTeele2

I bet you, that if I said "Sure Turbine, go ahead and let these soloers get what they want. BUT You have to make it so that it will take an average of 40 hours to be able to beat the FIRST TIME but, after that it could take as little as 3-4 hours to be able to beat the second and every other time, and mistakes such as an errant autoattack hitting a CC'd mob, not removing a single corruption, not avoiding a single mechanic, will kill them, or very nearly kill them any time they do this instance. Plus, they have to do it for 8 weeks to be able to get that special piece of item they want." every single one of you soloers would whine that it is "impossible or "too much work". Well that's what raiders go through for their gear. You don't see us complaining often that something is impossible (unless it actually is because Turbine can't seem to be able to make a mechanic work correctly like in Saruman T2C or do math like in Fire and Frost T2C). The simple fact is is that soloers want what we have without the amount of work that it takes to get it.

If that was true for every raider in this game, I am quite sure we would see more complaining by raiders

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

Seems like no matter how long does it take, soloers STILL don't deserve anything that raiders have.

You continue to phrase it as "soloers vs raiders" but if you took the time to read the replies you are receiving you would appreciate that this isn't the distinction being used by those disagreeing with you. The difference is effort and difficulty. It seems that you have absolutely no idea how much effort goes into mastering a raid and just how jaw-droppingly difficult Orthanc is.

The brutal truth is that the gear rewards for raiding vastly *under*-represent the time, effort and difficulty required to achieve them while the gear rewards for solo play vastly *over*-represent the time, effort and difficulty required to achieve them.

My CMP is my only raiding character, my alts do not raid, they have crafted/rep gear and 3A LIs. Yet the difference between them and my CMP gear-wise is relatively small. If I got 2As for my alts and ran a few skraids, the difference would be minor. If I ran each alt through a single T1 Orthanc they'd all have the raid armour (remember - there is no Orthanc T2 armour set) and the difference would be minimal. Yet my CMP has spent hundreds of hours in Orthanc, *hundreds*, trying to beat content so much harder than anything my solo alts have faced that the challenge is not even on the same planet. *That* is the distinction your antagonists in this thread want recognised, not their desire to wave their superior gear in your face.

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

2. It for sure is not "perfectly soloable by any class", at least not for those using solo gear only, and for certain not for "average soloer" who usually do solo content.

Sorry, to pick that one out. If you read all the complaints about how Orthanc is way too hard, you may rest assured, that raid gear is also not easily obtained by "average raiders". It is not perfectly raidable by any raid. You can solo the LG daylies, if you put enough effort into it, just as you can beat Orthanc if you put enough effort into it. Or are you indeed asking for gear to be handed out without putting any kind of effort into it? No matter the suggestions, there's still something not okay for the soloing folk here. I suggested grinding as the kind of effort to obtain Symbols and Clasps - that was turned down, as obviously grinding is not the soloers playstyle. Then there is something more challenging like the LG daylies, but then again this is not okay, as it's not easy enough. Are you really asking for raid gear, to be rewarded for doing easy solo content, that does not really have to be grinded? Like getting gear the fast and easy way?

[QUOTE=Vodomir;6197792]

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU
2. It for sure is not "perfectly soloable by any class", at least not for those using solo gear only, and for certain not for "average soloer" who usually do solo content.[/quote

Sorry, to pick that one out. If you read all the complaints about how Orthanc is way too hard, you may rest assured, that raid gear is also not easily obtained by "average raiders". It is not perfectly raidable by any raid. You can solo the LG daylies, if you put enough effort into it, just as you can beat Orthanc if you put enough effort into it. Or are you indeed asking for gear to be handed out without putting any kind of effort into it? No matter the suggestions, there's still something not okay for the soloing folk here. I suggested grinding as the kind of effort to obtain Symbols and Clasps - that was turned down, as obviously grinding is not the soloers playstyle. Then there is something more challenging like the LG daylies, but then again this is not okay, as it's not easy enough. Are you really asking for raid gear, to be rewarded for doing easy solo content, that does not really have to be grinded? Like getting gear the fast and easy way?

To add a bit to this:
Hunters are probably the weakest class to solo on atm. They have little mitigations, induction-based skills, and hardly any have a decent morale pool. They have to trait every legendary trait as CC, as well as five of their class traits, seriously gimping their dps.
Here is a video of a hunter soloing the big spider in limlight, the one that spawns adds:
http://youtu.be/y7SGUyvhl4k (yes i know it looks like it was taken through a sock. he's worked on it)

While he may have "raid gear" he doesn't even have any random armour just hanging around that he wouldn't wear to moors/raid, so yeah it's all set pieces, instead of crafted/draigoch like you could get solo. But most of his jewellery could be gotten by a solo player. He got his first age out a lootbox.

So, yes, limlight dailies are soloable by any class as long as you put in the effort.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

Sorry, to pick that one out. If you read all the complaints about how Orthanc is way too hard, you may rest assured, that raid gear is also not easily obtained by "average raiders". It is not perfectly raidable by any raid. You can solo the LG daylies, if you put enough effort into it, just as you can beat Orthanc if you put enough effort into it. Or are you indeed asking for gear to be handed out without putting any kind of effort into it? No matter the suggestions, there's still something not okay for the soloing folk here. I suggested grinding as the kind of effort to obtain Symbols and Clasps - that was turned down, as obviously grinding is not the soloers playstyle. Then there is something more challenging like the LG daylies, but then again this is not okay, as it's not easy enough. Are you really asking for raid gear, to be rewarded for doing easy solo content, that does not really have to be grinded? Like getting gear the fast and easy way?

No. I have wrote what I would like several times in this thread and people just try to read between lines something that is not there. There is no point in continuing this discussion for me, as it just seems to turn into argument. It would be nice if people could discuss HOW in their opinion soloers could have end-game content and comparable rewards, but most people don't seem to think that soloers and comparable rewards belong even in the same sentence.

So, there's no point for me to tell the same things over and over again. "jonhurt" understood perfectly how it should be earlier in this thread.

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

No. I have wrote what I would like several times in this thread and people just try to read between lines something that is not there. There is no point in continuing this discussion for me, as it just seems to turn into argument. It would be nice if people could discuss HOW in their opinion soloers could have end-game content and comparable rewards, but most people don't seem to think that soloers and comparable rewards belong even in the same sentence.

The part I'm unclear on, which comes out up-thread, is how to achieve this in a way that makes many soloers happy without sucking the oxygen out of raiding. Apparently the solution isn't to make it a big grind (there are complaints about that). If the solution is to have really hard solo content (say as hard as T3 Icy Crevasse on level, which can be really brutal if you get the wrong mob selection, and is most likely too difficult for the vast majority of folks to complete anyway), there would be complaints that it is too hard and inaccessible to many. Too hard for most to complete is similar to having no path forward. So if it isn't a big grind, and it isn't so hard that it is not doable by most folks, and the rewards are comparable to raiding, um, yeah. Some people do raids for the fun strictly, but for many it is a combination of the social/challenge/fun aspect AND the rewards at the end of a long hard road.

Hard skirmishes are the obvious choice for "challenge" solo content, because the ability to have a skirmish soldier lets you at least somewhat balance the material for different classes. The skirmish soldier compensates for the classes weakness, whether that is DPS, Heals, etc...

I'm personally totally on board with soloers, casual groupers, and raiders all having advancement paths. Just not on the all paths must have similar or comparable rewards...

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

No. I have wrote what I would like several times in this thread and people just try to read between lines something that is not there. There is no point in continuing this discussion for me, as it just seems to turn into argument. It would be nice if people could discuss HOW in their opinion soloers could have end-game content and comparable rewards, but most people don't seem to think that soloers and comparable rewards belong even in the same sentence.

So, there's no point for me to tell the same things over and over again. "jonhurt" understood perfectly how it should be earlier in this thread.

You just avoid the question ...

There are comparable rewards that can be earned by soloers. Then complaints were raised that clasps and FA symbols are raid exclusive, which factually in NOT the case. You say, you want the gear because you actually invest the same 'effort' ... but you neither want that 'effort' to be time consuming (grind) nor shall it be hard, so that even average joe in poor man's outfit can solo his way to get THE best gear in the game in less than a couple of hours.

Guess what, raids are both, time consuming and hard. Everyone with full raid equip, First Age LIs and that shiny golden necklace have come a long way to get that equipment. And you tell me you cannot even grind faceroll solo skirms or old 3-man instances to make some gold? And that you cannot be bothered to solo LG daylies because of the difficulty? What exactly is "the same effort" that you are willing to invest to get the same gear?

I quote myself on the theory of providing solo endgame with comparable, but not the same gear, before you say I' against such an idea:

Originally Posted by Vodomir

I'm all for that. Give Solo Players some challenging content and add good loot - there's nothing wrong about that. Just don't give them the exact same loot. The loot may be of the exact same quality (and actually should be, if the solo challenges are hard enough, but please not the exact same pieces, as would actually lead to everything being available by soloing (which is for sure not the intended playstyle of any MMORPG).

Originally Posted by Cuurth_pTeele2

To add a bit to this:
Hunters are probably the weakest class to solo on atm. They have little mitigations, induction-based skills, and hardly any have a decent morale pool. They have to trait every legendary trait as CC, as well as five of their class traits, seriously gimping their dps.
Here is a video of a hunter soloing the big spider in limlight, the one that spawns adds:
http://youtu.be/y7SGUyvhl4k (yes i know it looks like it was taken through a sock. he's worked on it)

While he may have "raid gear" he doesn't even have any random armour just hanging around that he wouldn't wear to moors/raid, so yeah it's all set pieces, instead of crafted/draigoch like you could get solo. But most of his jewellery could be gotten by a solo player. He got his first age out a lootbox.

So, yes, limlight dailies are soloable by any class as long as you put in the effort.

And as for the daylies themselves, you don't even need to kill the big spiders ... all you need to do is kill the 70k spiders, trolls and huorns. And I guess every soloer may be bothered to group up with 1-2 RND players to complete the required quests to unlock the daylies (even those can be soloed by certain classes).

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

It would be nice if people could discuss HOW in their opinion soloers could have end-game content and comparable rewards, but most people don't seem to think that soloers and comparable rewards belong even in the same sentence.

How? I thought I said but I'll expand. I'm not the best writer, and I'm not always coherent in the points I'm trying to explain but here goes:

If turbine could make a solo instance to do these things:
A single person put in 40+ hours of work to beat the first time, but with each time they've done it, and with the increases in gear one will eventually get, this will take less and less time.

One missed mechanic = death or near death. This means:
- Miss a pot? stunned. No block/parry/evade. Mobs hitting on you? You may die before that stun releases you.
- Missed a corruption? Mob does a special attack and one-shots you. Please try again.
- Missed a CC? Mob you had to keep down to take out other mobs is now hitting on you resulting in use of escape skills/death if not fast enough.
-Stand in a something you shouldn't be standing in? Your health is now fast dropping, run out or die.
-Oh, you mean to say that mob you just let stand in a healing puddle healed up all the way? You don't say, now you have to reduce all that morale allllll over again.
-Many many other mechanics that will cause one person to wipe either themselves or an entire raid.

Hour+ in total length. Includes "instance locks" for the solo instance. Let's say a week lock like orthanc. Multiple boss instance? Multiple instance locks. Finished that instance in a day? Pat yourself on the back, you get to wait another 6 days to be able to do it again.



This would also have to be done for each class individually, because what a warden can solo a hunter may not be able to solo. This would lead to more hurt feelings because one class's instance is easier then another class's. And so on.


Loot Tables:
Each Boss you get a shiny chest to open. Congrats!
Every class instance shares the same loot table.
OH! You're a mini? Your main stat is will? Well, here's a nice shiny cloak with 20 agi, 60 might, 300 block and 500 inc. heal rating.
OH! You're a hunter? Congrats on your brand new 100 might, 50 icpr heavy armour gauntlets!

You can get a special shiny thing that you can turn in for rewards, like a nice shiny armour piece. It would have to take quite a few coins to get, one coin would definitely not be enough. Say it also takes medallions/marks. You can get those as a solo player too, you know!

The gear would have to be similar to orthanc gear, but not orthanc gear, and generalized more for soloing. Say orthanc gear has 122 vitality, 30 might, 300 block. The solo equivalent would be say 60 might, 60 vitality, 300 block, 100 morale.



Star-lit crystals were amazing. You can now have a second-ager that can output nearly as much dps as a first ager. The only problem with second agers is that you might not have enough points to spend. D: Second age problems! (For the record, I have a second age burg bag with 6 majors on it (yes I know, my kin thinks I made a pact with the devil too but I assure you I didn't) I have 5 of the majors at rank 9, one of the majors at rank 8, and I spent a few points in my inc healing too. It's not impossible to get something that looks like a first ager) but you have to leave something for raiders. Leave us our first agers. You can already get them through lottery or solo means, if you're really lucky. But raiders need something to continue raiding just as you would need something to continue doing your solo instances. In some cases, first agers will be a side-grade from a second ager, or worse in general. I actually have a first age guardian belt that is worse then my second age one.


Now, why this wouldn't work:
1. Turbine will not devote man hours to make 9 instances of varying degree of difficulties. Right now there isn't even nine devoted instances in the game for groups at level cap! Draigoch, Tower of Orthanc, foundry, roots of fanghorn, pits, dragnak (sp?), the three man roots instance. All the rest are skirmishes and scaled instances.

2. The thought of what ZC, as the hunter dev, thinks a hunter could do in a solo instance, and what rewards they should get from it, fill me with ABSOLUTE TERROR. It would be an absolute nightmare. The same goes for orion for minis and champs and their rewards. The devs each have a different idea of what a class should get, and is capable of. Look at the warden: they have been tweeked what...10 times this year just to make them viable in solo and instance play without them being OP or underpowered?

3. "I can't complete this instance! Make it easier!" "But I can complete it, so can you!" "No I can't, don't tell me what I can and can't do. Make it easier so I can get the rewards too!"

4. Some will find it too long, or that it will take too much time to get what they want. They will inevitably ask for it to be shorter/take less time to get what they want/"need" because they don't have the time necessary to do what they need to to get it because they are soloers and have lives and don't have time to play the game.

5. "AAAH I can't avoid this mechanic? What am I supposed to do? Why can't no one help me? I want a healer! Let me bring my skirmish soldier in too!"

6. Stats on gear will STILL not be what soloers want. They will want to see the same numbers as raiders. The problem is is that raiders need to max certain things out more then soloers. What's would be the middle balance on this? People only see the number, and the bigger it is the better. This is why I see tanks with 21,000 unbuffed morale, but 15% block rating and 400 might. They don't see the reasoning behind the numbers.




At this point, I can see soloers getting gear similar to what raiders get. And maybe then you'll realize that what you can get with minimal effort from skirms for draigoch gear, and the solos for limlight dailies are completely overpowered to what you get for the work you put in, too.

But, at that point, is this game even an mmo anymore? When everyone is just doing solo content? I don't want lotro to turn into SWTOR. I want to see us be an mmo. I want to see people working together for a common goal.
At what point do we stop?
At what point do we stop making things easier and easier for individual players? These instances will have to be just as much work and effort as it would take to do a raid. But most soloers I know personally just do not have the skill to pull off some of these things. (Also a few classes don't have all the proper tools to compensate for things like getting hit on a hunter. Hunters have very very little healing)

This can't be like the galtrev dailies where you can take any class into with any gear at various levels and expect to beat it with very little time and effort. It has to be challenging. It has to feel like you accomplished something. It has to be balanced. The classes, the way they're built, the way the game mechanics are currently, things cannot be balanced.

What happens in raid for my kinship, and no I am not overexaggerating. This is probably not the same for all kins.
Other people who raid go ahead and fill this in for your kin too.

We raid at 10 PM server time 7 days a week. If we're ahead of schedule or we complete something we weren't expecting to complete so early we may get a day off!
Wake up at raid time (not before), get online and spend an hour waiting for everyone to show up. End up having to call 1 person in greece so he can wake up to tank for us. Have to wake up another person from their nap they took before raid. Wait for someone else to come home from his 15 hour work day.

We go through trash. We no longer have any trash that is not on farm on T2. Everyone knows exactly what is happening during the trash. Even still, we will wipe if one person isn't paying attention or doesn't do the right thing. It happens. You wait five minutes for the minstrel/rks to retreat, run back, rezz everyone. Captains get to rebuff again. Scrolls. Tokens. Wait for oathbreakers/fellowship heart/other five minute cooldowns. Eat. Try again.

Trash can take anywhere from 20-70 minutes depending on difficulty of trash, newcomers, bad luck on mezzes, etc.

We then wait 10 minutes for the lore masters, guardians, everyone, to retrait, repair, come back in. Smokers to come back from their smoke break. People to get done with general everyday life sort of stuff that they go to do during this ten minute break.

Then we do two different things depending on the wing, and how long we've been doing it.
Super Farm Nights: Lightning T2C, Fire and Frost T2
Explain everyone's roles (it'll change night to night depending on class makeup, and who's there, and who can handle what. Raid leader gets to memorize everyone's capabilities.)

Try and execute. Fail once or twice, or more depending on who's making a boneheaded mistake, and how to correct it. Figure out why this mechanic worked, such as the exploding light took until it was down to 20k health to explode, and then the next one spawned and exploded instantly killing 90% of the raid.

Finish and move on.

Farm Nights that we don't have as much experience on: Acid T2/C, Shadow T2C
Spend hours trying to figure out how to do what with our class make ups this night, for this mechanic. Wipe several times before we finally get it, or try again the next night. This week it took us 3 days to do Shadow T2C a second time. We had to relearn how to do it with the classes we had available between last week and this week, and between day to day.

Wipe Nights:
Wipe nights are absolutely horrible.
You spend 4 or more hours (our maximum was 7 hours together) dieing in every single possible way you could possibly imagine. Every single thing you do can go horribly wrong. It can take a whole day before you realized you were trying to beat a mechanic the wrong way. You can spend days trying again and again to learn how a single mechanic works.

You spend hours talking things out as a group, trying to figure out the best way to beat the boss. Trying something. Dieing. Waiting for a healer to retreat, rezz again, rebuff rescroll wait for people to come back from bios/smokes.

40 hours to beat a single wing in a raid would not be uncommon for some kins before they could beat a single wing. I know it isn't for us. It took us 2 weeks of wipes before we were able to get the shadow challenge.

Raiding is hard. It's a grind. We're not a bunch of people with no lives. We have jobs and families. Yet we still put in the effort it takes to raid. I want to see soloers put in the same amount of effort and skill it takes to successfully complete a T2C.

tl;rd: Just read it, I put a lot of effort into writing this out, to try and put into words what I experience every night during a raid to get the rather pitiful rewards from orthanc. But:

Put in the effort, get the rewards. Don't put in the effort, be glad with what you have.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

If that was the case, how comes I find posts like this one:

Have a look at what he defined as the two camps and what I've been saying. You should see why I'm camp 1.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

I'm sure I can find more quotes like this.

Probably. That quote just shows I want raid loot put into a challenging solo path.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

I didn't mean that you want the loot without effort. You are just not willing to actually bring the effort that is required for that specific loot. While you want to substitute it with another type of effort, it's just not how the game was designed to be. Why should every piece of loot be available through any kind of play style?

It's not about having the will to raid, it's about not having another 11 suitable people to raid with (for me at least). I can't believe you haven't even been reading what I've said and just fell back on the mistaken assumption that those who don't raid just don't want to.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

I'm all for that. Give Solo Players some challenging content and add good loot - there's nothing wrong about that. Just don't give them the exact same loot. The loot may be of the exact same quality (and actually should be, if the solo challenges are hard enough, but please not the exact same pieces, as would actually lead to everything being available by soloing (which is for sure not the intended playstyle of any MMORPG).

That's fine. Not entirely sure why changing the name of loot for solo would make it acceptable to you but at least we're getting somewhere.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

But you aren't actually doing the same work. Organizing a group/raid is a work you don't do. Leading a raid/group is a work you don't do. Coordinating whatever your role in the group/raid is, is a work you don't do. Grouping/Raiding is a group effort and you don't bring any group effort by soloing. I'm not saying grouping/raiding is necessarily harder than soloing, but you just cannot compare once against the other. And ignoring the difficulty you still don't do the same work.

Organising and leading a raid =/= raid difficulty.

Raid loot isn't there to reward people for organising and leading the raid. It's there to reward people completing it. If Turbine wanted to reward people for just getting a group together, they would have done so.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

You get enough comparable loot by soloing, so the rewards are right there for you. And if you want that one specific item so badly, then you should probably just take the 'punishment' and do what the game wants you to do?

No, you don't. Seriously, if you were stuck with solo rewards only, you'd instantly see just how shoddy it all is. Group work will get you close to raid standard. Solo won't.

As for 'taking the punishment', I'm going to have to repeat it's not about a lack of want to raid, it's a lack of ability (no, not skill level) to raid.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

Yes, we habe 4 distinct endgame paths and all I say is, all 4 ways should have their distinct loot. But all you want is one path (soloing) to have access to ALL loot. See, how you ask for solo to get the edge?

If this was a thread about PvP having raid level rewards introduced, I'd be backing that too. If this was a thread about raiders having solo level rewards... oh wait, raiding is the only pathway in-game that can give you pretty much all rewards. The only thing I think you can't get from raiding is PvP gear and I even said that the captain flag SHOULD be available for raiders too so they don't have to be forced to PvP for it.

So no, I'm not asking for solo to get the edge. I'm asking for solo to be improved and given some attention because that is the topic of the thread. I'm not going to derail it because someone might not have thought for a second as to why I wasn't suggestion improvements for other pathways.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

That's kind of absurd. You started a MMORPG game, so it should be pretty clear from the start, that you will have to partake in grouping/raiding activities to see all of content/loot. That's neither a secret nor a surprise. If you insist on restricting yourself to solo, than you've got to live with the limitations that come with this decision. Asking to have everything handed out to soloers is just a bold demand.

What are you talking about? MMO doesn't mean you HAVE to deal with other people. It's a perk (and sometimes a downside).

And again, you're acting like people are purposefully doing solo only, as if it's a choice. Seriously, get it in your head that it isn't a choice.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

If you bought yourself a Beat'em up game, though you prefer Racing Games, do you demand the game to be changed, because you like to play it another way? If a game doesn't fit to your playstyle, than you are better off searching for a game that actually suits your playstyle, rather than demanding the game to be changed? This IS a MMORPG game and it's not meant to be soloed all the way. Period.

Yeah, you're right. That's why Inspired Greatness doesn't exist in LotRO. Oh wait...

Originally Posted by Vodomir

That's just silly and plain wrong. Raid Content is harder. Try beating a raid solo to get the picture. The content IS in fact harder, that's why it requires 12 people to be beaten in the first place. It may not be harder for each and every individual in that specific raid as opposed to beating certain solo challenges would be for that person, but the content itself is harder, that cannot be denied.

No, you seem to misunderstand. It's about scale. If you took the difficulty of some true solo challenges and upped it to raid standard, then that raid would be even harder than current raids. So true solo challenges are more difficult than a raid, relatively speaking. Hence why people want new hard solo content that rewards as well as a raid does. Just because raiders are forced to deal with other people doesn't mean they deserve better loot.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

While I agree that 'personal challenges' can be very hard, I don't see how that helps with the loot discussion. Posing a challenge on yourself is one thing, but the encounters that you solo this way have never been designed to be soloed. Why should an old lvl 50 raid all of a suddedn drop lvl 75 raid items, just because a geared out lvl 75 warden/champion decides to rock that place solo? Loot is always associated with the challenge that the content was actually designed for and not with the challenge that someone makes out of it. And associating gear with those solo challenges will also mean, that wardens/champions will get the best of it, as they are by far more capable of solo efforts than lets say a Hunter.

Nobody is asking for that. What I asked for were new solo instances that would be at the difficulty of personal challenges we have now and so would reward the soloer for his skill and effort at defeating the solo challenge.

You don't get everything by raiding. The LG jewelry is the best stuff in the game, and I know lots of hardcore T2 raiders who haven't put in the effort to grind out the LG rep to get it.

Originally Posted by Gylve

You don't get everything by raiding. The LG jewelry is the best stuff in the game, and I know lots of hardcore T2 raiders who haven't put in the effort to grind out the LG rep to get it.

As I've said before, Orthanc does need better jewels. However, that isn't the topic of this thread. Feel free to make a new one asking for better jewels in raids and I'll be in there backing that too.

Having said that, there are still jewels in Orth that are close to the same level. Let me know when solo has gear close to the level of raid gear.

But I don't necessarily think that Orthanc jewels should necessarily be better than the LG ones. Tactical classes can get a lot of benefit out of wearing 3 pieces of one set and two of the other, but for most other classes they're just going to be wearing one set at a time, leaving an earring, ring, both bracelets and the necklace spot open. I liked the fact that a very good jewelry set could be earned by completing 6 man content/small fellow repeatables as a) it's a nice bonus for those who don't/can't raid, b) it's a nice way to get an alt closer to raid-viable stats before stepping foot in a raid and c) it's a nice break even for raiders to source some good gear from something other than raids/skraids. Raiders shouldn't be rewarded with equivalent jewelry just from running the raid they already do; they should have to put in the effort to grind the LG rep and run RoF if they want that stuff, the same way people should have to expect to run Orthanc if they want the armor.