Thread: Solo'ers suffer to much. Bring in 1 man end game instancing.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Bayler, I had good experiences with the WoW ground-finder. I found it worked quickly and effectively, and I got a lot done using it. Yes, there were a few rude people I encountered, but that was a small price to pay for being able to almost instantly access content I was interested in doing with my friends.

And besides, if you don't want to use it due to a fear of encountering impatient rude people, that's fine - and I'm not suggesting people who don't want to use it should be forced into doing so.

I can handle rude people just fine, I prefer not too in games. Thats not the main complaint about the idea. It is the resources needed to implement it. It would be non trivial and I seriously doubt the Lotro team has the even close the same resources available to it as the WoW team does. Better that they create more content for all levels of play.

Originally Posted by Bayleron

I can handle rude people just fine, I prefer not too in games. Thats not the main complaint about the idea. It is the resources needed to implement it. It would be non trivial and I seriously doubt the Lotro team has the even close the same resources available to it as the WoW team does. Better that they create more content for all levels of play.

New content is fine, as long as it's accessible. That's the issue.

All players should be able to experience the game's raiding content. Not just those who have the time and ability to commit to a regular raiding schedule.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

As a raider, I have no problem with someone running a solo version of the raid and getting a version of the gear with all the same stats... As long as while they are wearing the solo gear they are flagged as *Noob* in chat and their gear is unequipped whenever they join a fellowship or raid.

Having the gear is supposed to mean that you've beaten the fight and therefore have some clue of what you're supposed to do. Inspect someone, see they have the gear, go ahead and invite them to the raid; it used to be simple. I don't mind pugging a person or two on occasion to fill out a raid, but I don't want to take someone who has never done the raid before unless they are truly the last option.

And to any people who say 'that's mean' & 'how am I supposed to get experience if I need experience to get invited'; where were you when we we wiping for 6 hours a night, every night, while we were learning the raid?

Yosoff, while I find the first part of your post overly hostile to soloers wanting to raid lol - I do agree with you about that "inspect" tool and how incredibly useful that is when forming groups. Which leads me to a big pet peeve I have about this game I want to complain about since you brought it up.

Please remove that annoying "anonymous" thing from the game. I can understand why players use it - as it does prevent annoying commentary sometimes - but you can simply blist those players.

Truth is being able to inspect players make it so much easier on people trying to form groups, which is difficult enough on this game. Don't make it any worse for us. Please.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Yosoff, while I find the first part of your post overly hostile to soloers wanting to raid lol - I do agree with you about that "inspect" tool and how incredibly useful that is when forming groups. Which leads me to a big pet peeve I have about this game I want to complain about since you brought it up.

Please remove that annoying "anonymous" thing from the game. I can understand why players use it - as it does prevent annoying commentary sometimes - but you can simply blist those players.

Truth is being able to inspect players make it so much easier on people trying to form groups, which is difficult enough on this game. Don't make it any worse for us. Please.

Although I don't personally understand why people go anon (it's not like there are any amazing super-secret builds out there, even in PvMP), it's easy enough for someone putting together a group to deal with - all the person has to do is state in his LFG ad "please don't be anonymous". Those that can't bring themselves to turn off their anon flag for 10 seconds don't get a spot.

Originally Posted by Lestache

Although I don't personally understand why people go anon (it's not like there are any amazing super-secret builds out there, even in PvMP), it's easy enough for someone putting together a group to deal with - all the person has to do is state in his LFG ad "please don't be anonymous". Those that can't bring themselves to turn off their anon flag for 10 seconds don't get a spot.

I used to never go anon. I still don't intentionally go anon in PvE. In Moors, apparently, some folks spy on the other side and friend known PvPers. They can then know your general location. I try and remember to switch off anon when I leave the Moors though, as I'm fine with folks looking at my build/traits/etc.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

New content is fine, as long as it's accessible. That's the issue.

All players should be able to experience the game's raiding content. Not just those who have the time and ability to commit to a regular raiding schedule.

How is someone supposed to experience raid content without actually raiding? Something's seriously off with that logic.

To all soloers who wants it all whitout the hours of work every raider puts in to it...

Originally Posted by Bayleron

The WoW cross server raid function also uses a custom difficulty created just for it. It is extraordinarily easy. Most raid mechanics that would kill you on normal or hard mode raids can safely be ignored, though people do still find a way to fail these raids way more often then I thought was possible given the challenge of that particular content. What it does accomplish is allowing people to experience the content, albeit a watered down version that has much less impact. The gear from this version of their raids is identical in name and function of the gear found in harder modes just with less stats and is better then probable 95% percent of the gear available from group content. While some people do use it to see some content they previously would not have, its mostly used to gear up quickly with raid drops and getting the points WoW uses for purchasing a lot of gear. Once you get in one, it usually goes fast. Rarely will anybody explain anything to you and if go afk for even a brief period or perform poorly you can be sure that you will be vote kicked out of the raid.

Now, maybe the Lotro devs could do a better job but its not really something I'd be in favor of them spending resources on. It might not require a custom difficulty. I have not raided in Lotro in a long time so I don't know how easy T1 raids are but I be surprised if they were much each easier the WoW's normal mode raids and if that is the case then a custom difficulty level would be need for every future raid using this cross server ability, meaning even more development time. My experience with cross server tools has been the larger the group gets the less friendly and patience it gets. Not really an environment I want to access any part of this lore rich MMO with.

Thanks for shedding some light on the argument. While T1 Orthanc is substantially easier than T2, it's still nowhere near easy enough for that kind of approach to work. Maybe raid skirms would work this way as they're straightforward enough that no real explanation is needed to complete them successfully (most of 'em anyway), but I still stand by my guns that there's no way a randomly assembled PUG could do T2 content and the success rate for T1 would be low enough that no one would use it.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

How is someone supposed to experience raid content without actually raiding? Something's seriously off with that logic.

Yes... someone is deffinitely "off with that logic" that is for sure.

When did I ever say people should be able to experience raid content without actually raiding? I suggest you reread what I have been posting a couple of more times lol

My point in this thread has to been to make raiding more accessible to people who don't have the time to commit to regular raiding schedules by introducing a cross-server LFG tool that allows players to easily and conviently access instances and raids by queuing up together. Similiar to how WoW does it, a correlation I've pointed out serveral times so I have no idea why you are accusing me of suggesting people should be able to raid without raiding...

Please take the time to more carefully read my posts before you attack my logic

Originally Posted by Lestache

Although I don't personally understand why people go anon (it's not like there are any amazing super-secret builds out there, even in PvMP), it's easy enough for someone putting together a group to deal with - all the person has to do is state in his LFG ad "please don't be anonymous". Those that can't bring themselves to turn off their anon flag for 10 seconds don't get a spot.

It's a pointless nuisance.

If you are going to respond to people in LFF, just go unanoymous first so they know who you are and what they are getting. Least that's how I feel about it.

like I said, it''s just a pet peeve of mine. If people want to go anon that's their right, but it's also my right to gripe about it

Althought i can understand the fact that some people cant do raids and stuff, i think that giving away raidloot to soloers ist just a stupid idea. I for myself cant do raids too nowadays due to some private reasons.

All i do want is to buff those skirmish items, wich you can trade in for marks like they did it once with the helegrod set.
And please lower the gap between raidgear and gear which you can get solo. Now there is raidgear which is about 100% better then quest/skirmstuff. Lower that to about 20%-25% and everything is fine.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Colt, while I agree with you that getting the Orthanc gear is pretty reasonable, since you only have to complete the raid once then you can farm seals and medallions in more convenient ways more in tune with your lifestyle.

But if you are wanting to get your First Age items or upgrade your cloak or necklace using the clasp - it's very difficult to get those unless you have the time and ability to commit to a regular raiding group. And content should be accessible to all paying customers, not meerly those who have the time and ability to raid regularly once a week at specific times.

The sooner games like this realize that, the sooner the MMO market will actually start to have some real competetion, instead of WoW dominating the market because apparantly Blizzard is the only company who realizes that accessibility + content = win - and that forcing your players to have to organize events on their own while trying to balance 12 different schedules with families in different time zones isn't a whole lot of fun.

First of all just because your a paying customer doesn't give you the right to the best stuff in the game. You need to earn that. Sorry but if getting end gear became a solo endeavour then wardens would have all the end game stuff and some other classes would be at pretty big dissadvantage. Or if they wanted class based instances they would have to make them very hard. Much harder then most soloers who want good gear would think. Solo content as it is now is easy enough pretty much anyone can do it and it doesnt require very good gear. Wan't a challenge do t3. Even then for some classes its cake. Trying to make a solo system would (probably) require a good amount of money, and I don't think there is a way they could make it fair across the board. I think we'd see alot of classes that are good soloers have great gear and the rest stuck.

Content is accessible to the paying customers. There is nothing stopping them from trying to set up a raid when they are in the game. If its pug will they win? Probably not, but who knows. Maybe they could set up their own kin that raids when he has time. Or do some research of some kins out there that raid at the times your on. If you can't get into those kins then maybe you should start getting better at your toon and doing the easy instances like draig and foundry and the llg dailies to get better gear. Even then if get into a raiding kin and you can't beat the content oh well. Some people can beat it others can't. Thats how life is.

Originally Posted by t-town-colt

First of all just because your a paying customer doesn't give you the right to the best stuff in the game. You need to earn that. Sorry but if getting end gear became a solo endeavour then wardens would have all the end game stuff and some other classes would be at pretty big dissadvantage. Or if they wanted class based instances they would have to make them very hard. Much harder then most soloers who want good gear would think. Solo content as it is now is easy enough pretty much anyone can do it and it doesnt require very good gear. Wan't a challenge do t3. Even then for some classes its cake. Trying to make a solo system would (probably) require a good amount of money, and I don't think there is a way they could make it fair across the board. I think we'd see alot of classes that are good soloers have great gear and the rest stuck.

Content is accessible to the paying customers. There is nothing stopping them from trying to set up a raid when they are in the game. If its pug will they win? Probably not, but who knows. Maybe they could set up their own kin that raids when he has time. Or do some research of some kins out there that raid at the times your on. If you can't get into those kins then maybe you should start getting better at your toon and doing the easy instances like draig and foundry and the llg dailies to get better gear. Even then if get into a raiding kin and you can't beat the content oh well. Some people can beat it others can't. Thats how life is.

Colt... ok I skimmed this and I'm having a very difficult time understanding how a lot of this relates to what I have said or why you are even directing this at me.

I never said soloers should be able to get raid gear without earning it. In fact I never even come close to saying that, and have pointed out numerous times that i believe that was a stupid idea and no MMO should revolve their focus around solo play. I'm not sure why I"m having to spend so much time telling people what I didn't say here.

And putting together a raid on this game is not nearly as easy as you make it sound, especially on certain servers. This game lacks effective tools for it - and I do believe paying customers should be able to easily access end-game content without having to spend hours on a chat channel advertising like a damn comercial hoping to find enough interested people who don't have locks.

And not everyone has the ability to commit to a regular raiding schedule, which is really the only way you can reasonably do raids on this game. There is a little thing called real life - and a lot of people have jobs, families, schedules ect... that prevent them being able to do so. And it's not right that for the most part they aren't able to take part in raiding on this game, at least not on a regular enough basis that they can gain access to some of the cooler stuff on this game.

Bottom line here is "earning" the gear should come from doing the raid itself - not spending hours spamming chat channels or pissing off your wife or girlfriend because you have to promise your Saturday evenings to a video game.

So we just don't agree here - at all. You think the way it is now is fine - I don't, and more effective and convienent tools should deffinitely be put in place that makes it's easier for people to access raiding content. And none of that has anything to do with "soloing". And unless you for some strange reason consider spamming chat channels or commiting to video game schedules somehow = "earning" it has nothing to do with that either.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Colt... ok I skimmed this and I'm having a very difficult time understanding how a lot of this relates to what I have said or why you are even directing this at me.

I never said soloers should be able to get raid gear without earning it. In fact I never even come close to saying that, and have pointed out numerous times that i believe that was a stupid idea and no MMO should revolve their focus around solo play. I'm not sure why I"m having to spend so much time telling people what I didn't say here.

And putting together a raid on this game is not nearly as easy as you make it sound, especially on certain servers. This game lacks effective tools for it - and I do believe paying customers should be able to easily access end-game content without having to spend hours on a chat channel advertising like a damn comercial hoping to find enough interested people who don't have locks.

And not everyone has the ability to commit to a regular raiding schedule, which is really the only way you can reasonably do raids on this game. There is a little thing called real life - and a lot of people have jobs, families, schedules ect... that prevent them being able to do so. And it's not right that for the most part they aren't able to take part in raiding on this game, at least not on a regular enough basis that they can gain access to some of the cooler stuff on this game.

Bottom line here is "earning" the gear should come from doing the raid itself - not spending hours spamming chat channels or pissing off your wife or girlfriend because you have to promise your Saturday evenings to a video game.

So we just don't agree here - at all. You think the way it is now is fine - I don't, and more effective and convienent tools should deffinitely be put in place that makes it's easier for people to access raiding content. And none of that has anything to do with "soloing". And unless you for some strange reason consider spamming chat channels or commiting to schedules somehow = "earning" it has nothing to do with that either.

I agree that LOTRO definitely needs a better group-finding tool, but I still don't think that if it were to get one that raid gear would suddenly be any easier to acquire than it is now. Perhaps getting into the raid itself and at least seeing a bit of it would be easier, but beating the fights is another story.

Unfortunately, there is some up front work involved in getting a successful raid group together - be it putting together a raiding kin or forming a static raid group (the latter of which is certainly possible - the German group that got the world first for the Original Challenger of Saruman title is a collection of people from multiple kins). There are also things that individuals need to do to be successful, and one of those is making oneself available to raid. Of course earning raid gear shouldn't rely solely on putting together a group or being able to be part of a group - and it isn't - but it is a necessary component.

Finally, the "people with real lives can't raid" excuse is simply untrue. My current kin and my previous kin are/were full of people with jobs, families, other interests, university, advanced degrees, and so forth. I've seen posts from people in other successful raiding kins who say the same about theirs. Raiding in LOTRO is an activity like any other - hopefully you have people in your life who understand that this is something that you like to do, and that it may take a few hours of your life every so often - just like playing in a local sports league, joining a card club, singing in a choir, going fishing, etc.

(I do understand and am sympathetic to those who may have some sort of physical disability that prevents them from raiding - unfortunately, I can't think of anything that would provide access to those people.)

But yes - a better group-finding tool would certainly be welcome. Just don't expect it to be a magic bullet that suddenly means anyone will be able to raid any time of day within a few minutes of deciding that they'd like to raid that day.

Originally Posted by Lestache

I agree that LOTRO definitely needs a better group-finding tool, but I still don't think that if it were to get one that raid gear would suddenly be any easier to acquire than it is now. Perhaps getting into the raid itself and at least seeing a bit of it would be easier, but beating the fights is another story.

Unfortunately, there is some up front work involved in getting a successful raid group together - be it putting together a raiding kin or forming a static raid group (the latter of which is certainly possible - the German group that got the world first for the Original Challenger of Saruman title is a collection of people from multiple kins). There are also things that individuals need to do to be successful, and one of those is making oneself available to raid. Of course earning raid gear shouldn't rely solely on putting together a group or being able to be part of a group - and it isn't - but it is a necessary component.

Finally, the "people with real lives can't raid" excuse is simply untrue. My current kin and my previous kin are/were full of people with jobs, families, other interests, university, advanced degrees, and so forth. I've seen posts from people in other successful raiding kins who say the same about theirs. Raiding in LOTRO is an activity like any other - hopefully you have people in your life who understand that this is something that you like to do, and that it may take a few hours of your life every so often - just like playing in a local sports league, joining a card club, singing in a choir, going fishing, etc.

(I do understand and am sympathetic to those who may have some sort of physical disability that prevents them from raiding - unfortunately, I can't think of anything that would provide access to those people.)

But yes - a better group-finding tool would certainly be welcome. Just don't expect it to be a magic bullet that suddenly means anyone will be able to raid any time of day within a few minutes of deciding that they'd like to raid that day.

Due to different time zones, families, schedules, jobs... other real life-related concerns, it is simply impossible for some people to be able to regularly commit to a static raiding group. That's just the simple fact of the matter - and I don't think it's fair that they largely get left out of raiding. So I disagree with you about that. It may be possible for people in your kin, but that isn't true of everyone else.

Some people can make it work. Other's can't.

I'm glad we agree about this game needing a better group-finding tool. I'll take what I can get at this point. And my intent was never to want a magic bullet or to dumb down or simplify the challenge of raiding.

But I don't agree with you that "putting together a group or being able to be part of a group" should be a "necessary component" of raiding, especially when the afforded tools for doing so are so cumbersome and frustrating to work with. Trying to balance 12 different schedules with families and jobs living across different time zones is just a nightmare in frustration - and it would be so much easier if friends could simple queue up together in a cross-server LFG tool and do raids together when it suits them - instead of having to make long-term commitments to a video game as if it were a job or something.

As I said in an earlier post, Turbine should pay Raid Organizers a monthly salary - because if it wasn't for their hard work and initiative, hardly anyone would be able to participate in their endgame content at all. And I feel that's a failure in game design, and would describe it as lazy and overly-reliant on player efforts to make their content accessible.

The concept is really very simple. I don't understand why people get so bent out of shape about it. And the thing about it is, if it gets implemented, it benefits everyone equally; in my experience, raiders/groupers do solo content from time to time.

1) Give people who play strictly solo an interesting gaming experience and gear progression options that allow them to continue to enjoy the game by continuing to improve the strength of their character.

One interesting way to do this is to make a solo version of the raid that is balanced for solo play. They have some of the mechanics in place already where I could see them doing this. They could use the banners they have in one of the 21st hall skirmish. You could have CC banners, healing banners, damage banners to bounce back and forth between the different banner types to navigate the pulls. They could really make a nice puzzle out of it. The gear rewards do not necessarily have to be "raid quality" but should provide enough progression and/or set bonuses (maybe even solo specific set bonuses) such that it makes the solo content more managable.

Right now, the solo progression options are just awfully boring. All development time goes into fellowships, raids, boring quests and skirmishes with no real chance of dying or no real need for strategy. The quest chains and epics might be fun the first time through but really lack replayability.

I have raided A LOT for the past five years in lotro (all raids completed and farmed on level up through OD), but now I am a solo player (no group finder, no glff, strictly solo) and I have found that there is really nothing interesting for me to do to continue to play this game. Who gets excited about farming gold to buy crafted gear? I do enjoy skirmishes, and especially speed completing them, but the rewards give no real sense of progression, given how monotinuous the required grind is to acquire the upgraded armor.

Originally Posted by jonhurt

One interesting way to do this is to make a solo version of the raid that is balanced for solo play.

Easy to write. Almost certainly impossible to do.

The different strengths and weaknesses of the classes are so great that (as described by a dev in a link earlier in this thread) it is essentially impossible to create instance content equally challenging for all classes. Witness Death From Below, a hard solo instance which was a breeze on some classes and extremely difficult on others.

Turbine have tried to address this in two ways. Skirmishes offer pretty generic content with a soldier to complement your skills. Or Inspired Greatness makes you so powerful that it's effectively god mode.

Raid fights are often extremely complex and are designed *specifically* to force co-operation between different classes. Many mechanics become simply redundant in a solo version - CC, aggro-swapping, twins fights, timers, placement, movement, distributed damage, frontal AoE. So the only way to make these soloable while keeping something of the flavour of the original instance, while ensuring all classes could do it, would be to make the player so powerful as to render the mechanics irrelevant. Or, those mechanics are simply removed and the fights become in essence skirmishes, far removed from the design of the raid.

Now, making skirmish versions of all instances to allow solo players to see the space and experience something of the story and the bosses isn't a bad idea, albeit a pipedream given the limitations on dev resources.

Another point worth repeating is that for every soloer who would genuinely like challenging solo content, there are another dozen (made up number) who will complain that it is too hard. The wailing over Death From Below, Attack At Dawn and Icy Crevasse had to be seen to be believed. There *are* a lot of players who simply do not want to be tested, do not want to be forced to play well and yet insist that they should have access to top-notch gear.

Those soloers on this thread genuinely wanting tough solo content should bear this in mind - if you get what you want, it will be /faceroll easy because that's what the majority want. The challenge you seek has long since departed solo and landscape questing and resides in instances and raids. Skirmishes were intended to be the bridge between the two, with three difficulty tiers and four group sizes, but sadly this mechanic remains essentially undeveloped since late 2009, another victim of Turbine's tendency to push shiny new game mechanics and then lose interest in them (see also housing, crafting instances, hobbies).

This last point is also why raiders get worried by these sorts of threads, to the point of appearing unreasonable in their objections. Raids are the last redoubt of difficulty in LOTRO, a tiny corner of genuinely hard content in a large world of extremely easy, casual-friendly solo landscape questing. I understand and do not disagree with Turbine's decision to develop the game this way. But I also sympathise with long-time raiders who have seen all vestiges of challenge removed from daily play, leaving only raids as the place they can really get their buzz. What is being asked for in this thread would be another chipping away at the already tiny borders around raiders' little world. It's another salami slice, ie, if you start with a whole salami, each little slice seems reasonable at the time, but after a while there's nothing left. That is how it feels to those for whom raiding is a big part of LOTRO.

Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

Easy to write. Almost certainly impossible to do.

The different strengths and weaknesses of the classes are so great that (as described by a dev in a link earlier in this thread) it is essentially impossible to create instance content equally challenging for all classes. Witness Death From Below, a hard solo instance which was a breeze on some classes and extremely difficult on others.

Turbine have tried to address this in two ways. Skirmishes offer pretty generic content with a soldier to complement your skills. Or Inspired Greatness makes you so powerful that it's effectively god mode.

Raid fights are often extremely complex and are designed *specifically* to force co-operation between different classes. Many mechanics become simply redundant in a solo version - CC, aggro-swapping, twins fights, timers, placement, movement, distributed damage, frontal AoE. So the only way to make these soloable while keeping something of the flavour of the original instance, while ensuring all classes could do it, would be to make the player so powerful as to render the mechanics irrelevant. Or, those mechanics are simply removed and the fights become in essence skirmishes, far removed from the design of the raid.

Now, making skirmish versions of all instances to allow solo players to see the space and experience something of the story and the bosses isn't a bad idea, albeit a pipedream given the limitations on dev resources.

Another point worth repeating is that for every soloer who would genuinely like challenging solo content, there are another dozen (made up number) who will complain that it is too hard. The wailing over Death From Below, Attack At Dawn and Icy Crevasse had to be seen to be believed. There *are* a lot of players who simply do not want to be tested, do not want to be forced to play well and yet insist that they should have access to top-notch gear.

Those soloers on this thread genuinely wanting tough solo content should bear this in mind - if you get what you want, it will be /faceroll easy because that's what the majority want. The challenge you seek has long since departed solo and landscape questing and resides in instances and raids. Skirmishes were intended to be the bridge between the two, with three difficulty tiers and four group sizes, but sadly this mechanic remains essentially undeveloped since late 2009, another victim of Turbine's tendency to push shiny new game mechanics and then lose interest in them (see also housing, crafting instances, hobbies).

This last point is also why raiders get worried by these sorts of threads, to the point of appearing unreasonable in their objections. Raids are the last redoubt of difficulty in LOTRO, a tiny corner of genuinely hard content in a large world of extremely easy, casual-friendly solo landscape questing. I understand and do not disagree with Turbine's decision to develop the game this way. But I also sympathise with long-time raiders who have seen all vestiges of challenge removed from daily play, leaving only raids as the place they can really get their buzz. What is being asked for in this thread would be another chipping away at the already tiny borders around raiders' little world. It's another salami slice, ie, if you start with a whole salami, each little slice seems reasonable at the time, but after a while there's nothing left. That is how it feels to those for whom raiding is a big part of LOTRO.

Well said.

Originally Posted by jonhurt

The concept is really very simple. I don't understand why people get so bent out of shape about it. And the thing about it is, if it gets implemented, it benefits everyone equally; in my experience, raiders/groupers do solo content from time to time.

1) Give people who play strictly solo an interesting gaming experience and gear progression options that allow them to continue to enjoy the game by continuing to improve the strength of their character.

One interesting way to do this is to make a solo version of the raid that is balanced for solo play. They have some of the mechanics in place already where I could see them doing this. They could use the banners they have in one of the 21st hall skirmish. You could have CC banners, healing banners, damage banners to bounce back and forth between the different banner types to navigate the pulls. They could really make a nice puzzle out of it. The gear rewards do not necessarily have to be "raid quality" but should provide enough progression and/or set bonuses (maybe even solo specific set bonuses) such that it makes the solo content more managable.

Right now, the solo progression options are just awfully boring. All development time goes into fellowships, raids, boring quests and skirmishes with no real chance of dying or no real need for strategy. The quest chains and epics might be fun the first time through but really lack replayability.

I have raided A LOT for the past five years in lotro (all raids completed and farmed on level up through OD), but now I am a solo player (no group finder, no glff, strictly solo) and I have found that there is really nothing interesting for me to do to continue to play this game. Who gets excited about farming gold to buy crafted gear? I do enjoy skirmishes, and especially speed completing them, but the rewards give no real sense of progression, given how monotinuous the required grind is to acquire the upgraded armor.

Jon, if all you want to do is solo why even play a MMO though? I don't understand why someone who is primarily interested in soloing would want to play a multiplayer game. That just doens't make any sense to me.

And this game offers soloers more content than any other MMO on the market, so I don't really feel it's a fair criticism of this game. Skirmishes give marks and medallions, which can be used toward buying the best gear in the game - not to mention a vast amount of other Legendary Item accessories that are entirely relevant to endgame progression. Also a lot of the 3 man content and lower-level instances can be effectively soloed as well.

Soloers can also work on deeds and crafts (both relevant and useful to endgame content) - or you can go out and fish and play around with decorating your own house, particpate in the festivals or goof off with a massive assortment of cosmetics and emotes at your disposal. And if that wasnt' enough, you can even play your own songs on this game via the music system, whcih can be a ton of fun - especailly if you start your own band So to sum it up - there is plenty for soloers to do on this game.

If they made everything available to soloers there would be no reason for people to group up - and that would hurt this game far more than it would help it.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Jon, if all you want to do is solo why even play a MMO though? I don't understand why someone who is primarily interested in soloing would want to play a multiplayer game. That just doens't make any sense to me.

The mistake you and others who regularly voice a similar opinion make is that lots of players don't "play an MMO", they play LOTRO. I am not an "MMO player", I play LOTRO. I started to play because it was a game based on LOTR. I don't play other MMOs. I have no interest in any other MMO. If there was no LOTRO I'd be playing Football Manager, or not playing games at all. When I started playing I didn't know what an "MMO" was, except that I'd be playing online and that there would be other players around.

You also need to understand that there is a lot more to being part of an MMO community than grouping with people. Many players enjoy the social side, enjoy being in a semi-dynamic world with other adventurers, an AH, player music, RPing. None of this requires grouping. In fact I'd say that grouping is very much a minor part of the "multiplayer" aspect of a modern MMO.

Your view of what "an MMO" and "an MMO player" are is very narrow and doesn't reflect the reality of the LOTRO experience for a lot of players.

Personally I have a raid-heavy character (my CMP) and 4 entirely solo characters, on whom I never, ever group. This provides me with two entirely different experiences, both of which are integral to my LOTRO experience. Yet even when playing my solo characters I enjoy kinchat, emoting, using the AH, in other words engaging fully with the multiplayer aspect of the game, just not in a fellowship.

Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

The mistake you and others who regularly voice a similar opinion make is that lots of players don't "play an MMO", they play LOTRO. I am not an "MMO player", I play LOTRO. I started to play because it was a game based on LOTR. I don't play other MMOs. I have no interest in any other MMO. If there was no LOTRO I'd be playing Football Manager, or not playing games at all. When I started playing I didn't know what an "MMO" was, except that I'd be playing online and that there would be other players around.

You also need to understand that there is a lot more to being part of an MMO community than grouping with people. Many players enjoy the social side, enjoy being in a semi-dynamic world with other adventurers, an AH, player music, RPing. None of this requires grouping. In fact I'd say that grouping is very much a minor part of the "multiplayer" aspect of a modern MMO.

Your view of what "an MMO" and "an MMO player" are is very narrow and doesn't reflect the reality of the LOTRO experience for a lot of players.

Personally I have a raid-heavy character (my CMP) and 4 entirely solo characters, on whom I never, ever group. This provides me with two entirely different experiences, both of which are integral to my LOTRO experience. Yet even when playing my solo characters I enjoy kinchat, emoting, using the AH, in other words engaging fully with the multiplayer aspect of the game, just not in a fellowship.

Well I take issue with you describing my opinion that grouping up should be a nessassary part of of any MMO as a "narrow view" of MMOs or the people who play them. To me that's just ridiculous - and I'm going to stick my position on this. Any MMO that makes all content available by soloing is just so inherently flawed that it might as well not even be called a MMO. Working as a team to overcome challenges is at the very core of the MMO genre.

And I mentioned many activities in my earlier post to you that could include the "social" aspects of the game. I mentioned festivals, emotes, cosmetics... hell, I even suggested creating a band. All of those activities are can be done solo while socializing with other players. So again I firmly disagree with you - and feel this game offers more opportunity to socialize with other players than any other game out there.

Any player who thinks they should be able to solo raids is just being unreasonable. That's just a absurd thing to ask for IMHO - and if all you are interested in doing is "socializing" then socialize. This game offers many unique venues for doing just that. But how someone can equate their interests in socializing to justifying that you should be able to solo raids is absolutely beyond me. That just makes no sense at all.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Well I take issue with you describing my opinion that grouping up should be a nessassary part of of any MMO as a "narrow view" of MMOs or the people who play them. To me that's just ridiculous - and I'm going to stick my position on this.

That isn't what I said was a narrow view. What I think is narrow is to question why someone plays an MMO at all when they only want to solo. I agree with you that group content is an important part of an MMO - I didn't dispute that. What I think you got wrong is your assumption that it is odd for someone to play "an MMO" when they have no intention of taking part in group content. Firstly because for many people this isn't "an MMO" and secondly because grouping up is only one of the social aspects of an online game, as you alluded to yourself.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Any MMO that makes all content available by soloing is just so inherently flawed that it might as well not even be called a MMO. Working as a team to overcome challenges is at the very core of the MMO genre.

You will see from my earlier posts that I strongly disagree with making all content soloable. I'm firmly in the raider camp on that one. I have just come to that point via a very different route to you and I think that to assert that group content is the core of this game is plainly absurd - it just isn't the way the game is designed any more.

You keep saying "an MMO" or "any MMO", but again I remind you that to many players this isn't "an MMO", it's LOTRO. They don't play the MMO genre, they may well not play any other games at all. Any conclusion based on the conventions of the genre are irrelevant to such people, no matter how obvious they seem to you.

Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

That isn't what I said was a narrow view. What I think is narrow is to question why someone plays an MMO at all when they only want to solo. I agree with you that group content is an important part of an MMO - I didn't dispute that. What I think you got wrong is your assumption that it is odd for someone to play "an MMO" when they have no intention of taking part in group content. Firstly because for many people this isn't "an MMO" and secondly because grouping up is only one of the social aspects of an online game, as you alluded to yourself..

Well I don't really see "soloing" as a form of socializing to be honest. It's kind of difficult to talk to others if you are alone, but I see your point and perhaps it was just a misunderstanding.

I have no problem understanding why someone who would be interested in socializing with other players would want to play an MMO. I do have a trouble understanding why someone who wants to be by themselves all the time would want to play an MMO however - and that was the point I was trying to make.

Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

You will see from my earlier posts that I strongly disagree with making all content soloable. I'm firmly in the raider camp on that one. I have just come to that point via a very different route to you and I think that to assert that group content is the core of this game is plainly absurd - it just isn't the way the game is designed any more.

You keep saying "an MMO" or "any MMO", but again I remind you that to many players this isn't "an MMO", it's LOTRO. They don't play the MMO genre, they may well not play any other games at all. Any conclusion based on the conventions of the genre are irrelevant to such people, no matter how obvious they seem to you.

Well I don't think it's absurd, and I do think playing together is at the core of the MMO genre. Socialzing is an important aspect too - but so is complimenting each other as a team to take down the minions of Sauron. And yes, this is LOTR - but it's also a multiplayer version of LOTR ONLINE that is meant to be played with other players.

But in any case I "think' we agree. We shouldnt' be able to solo raids.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

But in any case I "think' we agree. We shouldnt' be able to solo raids.

Sure, no soloing raids. But, having a solo "raid" that brings in the puzzle aspect of solving a raid to a solo player. It's the puzzle aspect you gain with a multitude of competing mechanics that is fun, figuring things out, practicing, and getting better. It seems all games lack that, maybe its because its hard to design, or maybe its because the demand just isnt there for that type of content, or a combination thereof. Sure its a dream, but without some change to make solo play interesting my gaming bucks have gone elsewhere.

I know what I can get in LotRO and if I ever want that again I can come back. I just really enjoy the world, the atmosphere, the graphics, the mob/player movement of LotRO, and wish I could spend my gaming time doing something interesting and challenging in this environment as a strictly solo player. Right now, the funnel is into group play or ultra-casual. I cannot do and am not interested in the group play aspect at this time, and I am not a casual gamer. I suppose people interested in challenging solo content are probably in an extreme minority; so it probably makes sense that we do not have interesting and challenging solo content.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Due to different time zones, families, schedules, jobs... other real life-related concerns, it is simply impossible for some people to be able to regularly commit to a static raiding group. That's just the simple fact of the matter - and I don't think it's fair that they largely get left out of raiding. So I disagree with you about that. It may be possible for people in your kin, but that isn't true of everyone else.

Some people can make it work. Other's can't.

I'm glad we agree about this game needing a better group-finding tool. I'll take what I can get at this point. And my intent was never to want a magic bullet or to dumb down or simplify the challenge of raiding.

But I don't agree with you that "putting together a group or being able to be part of a group" should be a "necessary component" of raiding, especially when the afforded tools for doing so are so cumbersome and frustrating to work with. Trying to balance 12 different schedules with families and jobs living across different time zones is just a nightmare in frustration - and it would be so much easier if friends could simple queue up together in a cross-server LFG tool and do raids together when it suits them - instead of having to make long-term commitments to a video game as if it were a job or something.

As I said in an earlier post, Turbine should pay Raid Organizers a monthly salary - because if it wasn't for their hard work and initiative, hardly anyone would be able to participate in their endgame content at all. And I feel that's a failure in game design, and would describe it as lazy and overly-reliant on player efforts to make their content accessible.

Just want to throw out a few data points here. First, it is NOT impossible for people who have 'real jobs' or 'real families' to commit to raiding schedule. As Lestache said, it is like any other hobby that you have, and you have to commit to make the time. No one would say that it is impossible to organize a softball league, but for some reason people say the same about LOTRO.

Second, I agree that a better group finding tool would be nice, however, I think you would in the end still be extremely disappointed. With the nature of the fight designs in LOTRO, you would not be able to advance very far in Orthanc T2 without 1) an experienced leader; 2) an experienced group; 3) correct class makeup. I haven't played WoW, so I don't know how their group finder works in terms of addressing these issues, but I will say that their raid content must be much easier than LOTRO's if you can just put a random group of people together and expect to beat the content.

Third, LOTRO has tried to put in a better group finding tool in the instance finder, and, at least from my experience, no one uses it except with pre-made groups. In fact, I would say that most of the feedback on the IF was negative.

I'm all for making improvements to the solo experience and for making content more accessible, and I am also in favor of better grouping tools. That said, I'm not sure that current raid design is amenable to random groups, and I think you would be more disappointed than satisfied if such a tool was put in place.

Originally Posted by jonhurt

Sure, no soloing raids. But, having a solo "raid" that brings in the puzzle aspect of solving a raid to a solo player. It's the puzzle aspect you gain with a multitude of competing mechanics that is fun, figuring things out, practicing, and getting better. It seems all games lack that, maybe its because its hard to design, or maybe its because the demand just isnt there for that type of content, or a combination thereof. Sure its a dream, but without some change to make solo play interesting my gaming bucks have gone elsewhere.

I know what I can get in LotRO and if I ever want that again I can come back. I just really enjoy the world, the atmosphere, the graphics, the mob/player movement of LotRO, and wish I could spend my gaming time doing something interesting and challenging in this environment as a strictly solo player. Right now, the funnel is into group play or ultra-casual. I cannot do and am not interested in the group play aspect at this time, and I am not a casual gamer. I suppose people interested in challenging solo content are probably in an extreme minority; so it probably makes sense that we do not have interesting and challenging solo content.

Well like I said to you earlier Jon, I don't feel that's a fair criticism of this game. I feel LOTRO already has a lot of challenging solo content. A lot more than most other games out there, that's for sure.

Originally Posted by mmdur1

Just want to throw out a few data points here. First, it is NOT impossible for people who have 'real jobs' or 'real families' to commit to raiding schedule. As Lestache said, it is like any other hobby that you have, and you have to commit to make the time. No one would say that it is impossible to organize a softball league, but for some reason people say the same about LOTRO.
.

And again, for some people it is possible. For others it isn't.

It depends on the "real jobs" and the "real families". And the same can be said for other hobbies that require schedules and specefic dates too. Not just video games.

You are just wrong on this. Not everyone can commit to a regular raiding schedule. Their real-life circumstances prevent them from being able to do so. That's not an excuse, nor an inaccurate statement. It's just the truth.

Glad we agree though better group-finding tools need to be put in place.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

And again, for some people it is possible. For others it isn't.

It depends on the "real jobs" and the "real families". And the same can be said for other hobbies that require schedules and specefic dates too. Not just video games.

You are just wrong on this. Not everyone can commit to a regular raiding schedule. Their real-life circumstances prevent them from being able to do so. That's not an excuse, nor an inaccurate statement. It's just the truth.

Glad we agree though better group-finding tools need to be put in place.

[Emphasis mine]

At the risk of sounding callous, so what? If people can't commit to a regular raiding schedule for whatever reason, then they can't; so they don't get to raid as part of a consistent group that schedules raid times. I'm not really sure what the point of the bolded statement is.

Originally Posted by Lestache

[Emphasis mine]

At the risk of sound callous, so what? If people can't commit to a regular raiding schedule for whatever reason, then they can't; so they don't get to raid as part of a consistent group that schedules raid times. I'm not really sure what the point of the bolded statement is.

Precisely. If you do not have the time to raid, don't raid. No one will hold it against you, for the love of all things holy, it's a GAME. Some of you are proposing completely taking away a piece of this game that many people enjoy, the challenge of a raid. Others are proposing something that has already been experimented with through the IF and has experienced a lot of criticism. Btw, they also mentioned eventually introducing a raid component to the IF, so is that what you are looking for? If the problem is time, won't sitting in the IF take just as long as glffing? Plus you won't get a designated leader, nor classes that are most helpful (I.e. captains and LMs are both "support" but you wouldn't want 3 LMs instead of 1 LM and 2 captains in a raid). Fact is, I dont see how a new LFG system would even work effectively... we need clearer ideas. Hopefully the devs already have taken some steps towards this. But please, please, do not simplify raids to help "soloers". The challenge aspect is what makes raids fun. There's plenty of endgame landscape for soloers. Go kill stuff in LL gorge, idk.

Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

This last point is also why raiders get worried by these sorts of threads, to the point of appearing unreasonable in their objections. Raids are the last redoubt of difficulty in LOTRO, a tiny corner of genuinely hard content in a large world of extremely easy, casual-friendly solo landscape questing. I understand and do not disagree with Turbine's decision to develop the game this way. But I also sympathise with long-time raiders who have seen all vestiges of challenge removed from daily play, leaving only raids as the place they can really get their buzz. What is being asked for in this thread would be another chipping away at the already tiny borders around raiders' little world. It's another salami slice, ie, if you start with a whole salami, each little slice seems reasonable at the time, but after a while there's nothing left. That is how it feels to those for whom raiding is a big part of LOTRO.

So very, very well said!

Originally Posted by Lestache

[Emphasis mine]

At the risk of sounding callous, so what? If people can't commit to a regular raiding schedule for whatever reason, then they can't; so they don't get to raid as part of a consistent group that schedules raid times. I'm not really sure what the point of the bolded statement is.

At the risk of repeating myself:

Because unless people can commit to a regular raiding schedule with a static group it's very difficult for them to be able to get some of the better items in the game or see some of the cooler fights. That's the point.

All players should be able to access this game's raiding content. Not just those who have lifestyles to accomodate static schedules on a weekly basis with the same group of people.

This game has horrible group-making tools, and it's nearly impossible (especially on certain servers) to find 12 willing people without locks to join a pick up Raid. So the only reasonable approach to raiding on this game is through planned events that revolve around scheduling - and that's not something a lot of players are going to be able to commit to.

And to sum it up, if you are gaming company - the kind of attidue "so what?" if players can't particpate in our endgame content is a great way to cause players to lose interests in your game. And yes, I do find your implied "I can raid so who cares if others can't" attitude kind of callous, among other things I won't mention

Originally Posted by Bond007

Precisely. If you do not have the time to raid, don't raid. No one will hold it against you, for the love of all things holy, it's a GAME. Some of you are proposing completely taking away a piece of this game that many people enjoy, the challenge of a raid. Others are proposing something that has already been experimented with through the IF and has experienced a lot of criticism. Btw, they also mentioned eventually introducing a raid component to the IF, so is that what you are looking for? If the problem is time, won't sitting in the IF take just as long as glffing? Plus you won't get a designated leader, nor classes that are most helpful (I.e. captains and LMs are both "support" but you wouldn't want 3 LMs instead of 1 LM and 2 captains in a raid). Fact is, I dont see how a new LFG system would even work effectively... we need clearer ideas. Hopefully the devs already have taken some steps towards this. But please, please, do not simplify raids to help "soloers". The challenge aspect is what makes raids fun. There's plenty of endgame landscape for soloers. Go kill stuff in LL gorge, idk.

Yeah Bond... we deffinitely need "clearer ideas" like this. Just tell eveyone who can't raid due to real-life restraints and the inability to commit to long-term scheduling to just go "kill stuff in LL gorge". I'm sure that's going to satisfy players.

Anyways - back to my original point. Allowing more accessiblility to raiding will in no way decrease its "challenge aspect". That's just a misnomer - unless people actually think spamming chat channels or creating/commiting to schedules is somehow a legitmate part of raiding challenge - which I do not.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

At the risk of repeating myself:

Because unless people can commit to a regular raiding schedule with a static group it's very difficult for them to be able to get some of the better items in the game or see some of the cooler fights. That's the point.

All players should be able to access this game's raiding content. Not just those who have lifestyles to accomodate static schedules on a weekly basis with the same group of people.

This game has horrible group-making tools, and it's nearly impossible (especially on certain servers) to find 12 willing people without locks to join a pick up Raid. So the only reasonable approach to raiding on this game is through planned events that revolve around scheduling - and that's not something a lot of players are going to be able to commit to.

And to sum it up, if you are gaming company - the kind of attidue "so what?" if players can't particpate in our endgame content is a great way to cause players to lose interests in your game. And yes, I do find your implied "I can raid so who cares if others can't" attitude kind of callous, among other things I won't mention

You apparently chose to avoid the second, most pertinent, part of my earlier post, so I will repost it here:

Second, I agree that a better group finding tool would be nice, however, I think you would in the end still be extremely disappointed. With the nature of the fight designs in LOTRO, you would not be able to advance very far in Orthanc T2 without 1) an experienced leader; 2) an experienced group; 3) correct class makeup. I haven't played WoW, so I don't know how their group finder works in terms of addressing these issues, but I will say that their raid content must be much easier than LOTRO's if you can just put a random group of people together and expect to beat the content.

If you were able to put together pick-up-groups with no issues at all for LOTRO raids you would still not be able to access the content beyond a cursory level as you would wipe repeatedly on the first trash pull in each wing. Now if you are talking about T1 then, sure you'd be fine with a PUG, but I don't really think that's what you are talking about here.

More to the point, you have completely derailed this post, as the OP was interested in seeing solo instances that granted the same rewards as 12-man raids. You do not appear to be advocating this position, which is good since I think it is a silly idea, but perhaps you should make your own thread to discuss the poor group-making tools in lotro rather than continue to derail this one.

Originally Posted by mmdur1

You apparently chose to avoid the second, most pertinent, part of my earlier post, so I will repost it here:

Second, I agree that a better group finding tool would be nice, however, I think you would in the end still be extremely disappointed. With the nature of the fight designs in LOTRO, you would not be able to advance very far in Orthanc T2 without 1) an experienced leader; 2) an experienced group; 3) correct class makeup. I haven't played WoW, so I don't know how their group finder works in terms of addressing these issues, but I will say that their raid content must be much easier than LOTRO's if you can just put a random group of people together and expect to beat the content.

If you were able to put together pick-up-groups with no issues at all for LOTRO raids you would still not be able to access the content beyond a cursory level as you would wipe repeatedly on the first trash pull in each wing. Now if you are talking about T1 then, sure you'd be fine with a PUG, but I don't really think that's what you are talking about here.

More to the point, you have completely derailed this post, as the OP was interested in seeing solo instances that granted the same rewards as 12-man raids. You do not appear to be advocating this position, which is good since I think it is a silly idea, but perhaps you should make your own thread to discuss the poor group-making tools in lotro rather than continue to derail this one.

Mmdur that post you are responding to wasn't even aimed at you. It was directed at Lestache.

So why on earth are you responding to a post that wasn't even in response to something you said accusing me of avoiding what you posted? That's not very fair to me. Of course it avoided what you said, because it wasn't even responding to something you said to begin with.

If you look back up and read the actual post I did respond to you with, not only did I NOT avoid what you said, but I said I'm glad we agree

And I am sorry if you feel I'm "derailing" the thread. I guess all I can say is simply place me on ignore and you won't have to read my "derailing" threads that bother you any longer. Though just to defend myself here - I feel my posts have been in theme and accomodating players with more effective group-finding tools would help soloers particpate in raids far more easier. So while it may not be directly in-line with the title of the thread, I believe it sufficiently relates to the subject matter.

Also I disagree with you and others that an effective LFG tool woudn't help solve the problem. I think it would, and as more and more pugs became experienced at doing the raid content they would become better at it - and PUG groups would become a lot more successful. Experience matters. A lot. A fact you stress in your post.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

At the risk of repeating myself:

Because unless people can commit to a regular raiding schedule with a static group it's very difficult for them to be able to get some of the better items in the game or see some of the cooler fights. That's the point.

All players should be able to access this game's raiding content. Not just those who have lifestyles to accomodate static schedules on a weekly basis with the same group of people.

This game has horrible group-making tools, and it's nearly impossible (especially on certain servers) to find 12 willing people without locks to join a pick up Raid. So the only reasonable approach to raiding on this game is through planned events that revolve around scheduling - and that's not something a lot of players are going to be able to commit to.

And to sum it up, if you are gaming company - the kind of attidue "so what?" if players can't particpate in our endgame content is a great way to cause players to lose interests in your game. And yes, I do find your implied "I can raid so who cares if others can't" attitude kind of callous, among other things I won't mention

It has nothing to do with me being able to raid when others apparently can't. In fact, I have a lot less time to raid than I used to, so I have fewer chances at the gear that I want and earn fewer seals than I used to, yet I haven't lobbied for changes in the game to make it easier for me to get what I want in spite of my inability to play as much as I used to.

I've stipulated that LOTRO needs a better group-finding tool. You'll get no argument from me on that count.

I just don't understand why this nebulous group of people who either don't have the time to raid or can't make the time to raid should get some sort of special treatment. Why are they more important than the people whose computers can't handle the graphics in a raid and lag out? Why are they more important than the people who may have physical disabilities that prevent them from being able to press buttons or click their skills at the level needed to succeed in a raid?

So yes - if they are unable to commit to a static raiding group and make scheduled raids from time to time, they may not get to see some of the cool fights in the raids. Why exactly is that an issue that anyone other than that person should care about, let alone that Turbine should try to fix for that person?

There are some real life activities that I enjoy doing that I'm currently unable to do, largely due to not having the time or availability to do so. Yet I, and every other person I know who doesn't get to do everything he wants to do, haven't given a single thought to asking the governing bodies of these activities to make special allowances for us. I absolutely do not understand why a person playing a video game and wishing to do activities in a video game would think that the makers of said video game should accommodate that person's particular situation.

Originally Posted by Lestache

It has nothing to do with me being able to raid when others apparently can't. In fact, I have a lot less time to raid than I used to, so I have fewer chances at the gear that I want and earn fewer seals than I used to, yet I haven't lobbied for changes in the game to make it easier for me to get what I want in spite of my inability to play as much as I used to.

I've stipulated that LOTRO needs a better group-finding tool. You'll get no argument from me on that count.

I just don't understand why this nebulous group of people who either don't have the time to raid or can't make the time to raid should get some sort of special treatment. Why are they more important than the people whose computers can't handle the graphics in a raid and lag out? Why are they more important than the people who may have physical disabilities that prevent them from being able to press buttons or click their skills at the level needed to succeed in a raid?

So yes - if they are unable to commit to a static raiding group and make scheduled raids from time to time, they may not get to see some of the cool fights in the raids. Why exactly is that an issue that anyone other than that person should care about, let alone that Turbine should try to fix for that person?

There are some real life activities that I enjoy doing that I'm currently unable to do, largely due to not having the time or availability to do so. Yet I, and every other person I know who doesn't get to do everything he wants to do, haven't given a single thought to asking the governing bodies of these activities to make special allowances for us. I absolutely do not understand why a person playing a video game and wishing to do activities in a video game would think that the makers of said video game should accommodate that person's particular situation.

I care about it Lestache. So should Turbine.

Raiding helps bring longevity to the game. So the more players who can easily participate it in, the better. And that means more people playing the game for a longer period of time. And that should be the utlimate goal of any MMO company.

Catering to your customer's needs is what being a business is all about - and it's their job to "accommodate" the people who are using their product to the best of their ability. And to dismiss the situations of your customers and essentially tell them "boo boo, you don't always get what you want so deal with it" is about the worst business model I can think of lol.

So yeah, we don't agree about that. Glad we agree this game needs a better LFG tool however. It's weird how two people can agree on the basic point yet still find a way to disagree so much