Thread: Solo'ers suffer to much. Bring in 1 man end game instancing.

Okay before all you kinnies whine and winge about 1 man instancing. Look at playing this game as a solo player that has not enough time to invest into playing lotro on a regular time base for doing 12 man raiding in a kinship. Ive been playing since beta and been in 4 main kinships on the snowbourn server and done my time in leading runs as well as getting that top tier armor from doing such.

But now with RL changes i cant afford to do this although i would love to be able too. And now with my situation i still want to work for my stats and loadout. I dont want to just hit the lotro store and buy my top tier armor although if this was the only option the dev gave me i wouldnt turn it down. But why not bring in more 1 man instance runs for gaining the top in game armor the same as the 12 man raids. Ideally i want to log in have my hour of game play not standing there trying to pug a position get no where and log off pi**ed off with the game but to log in hit my skirmish tab go into my solo instance run my instance get my token/s and save for that gear. Now ratio wise i'd be happy obviously earning less than a 12 man raid. But least to be given the chance to do the instance run and at least come away slightly closer to earning that epic armor. Even if stats were slightly reduced for solo instancing armor fair enough, i could understand this and live with it.

Really to sum up i cant see why this cannot be implemented into the game to keep both kinship and solo players wanting to log and play when they get the chance. So if any devs decide to read this thread concider us solo players and perhaps look into giving us end game content solo play equivilant to raiding armor.

Yes to this. Yes, I know it is an MMO, but I can't do the group stuff due to physical issues.

Originally Posted by Shadowbourn

Okay before all you kinnies whine and winge about 1 man instancing. Look at playing this game as a solo player that has not enough time to invest into playing lotro on a regular time base for doing 12 man raiding in a kinship. Ive been playing since beta and been in 4 main kinships on the snowbourn server and done my time in leading runs as well as getting that top tier armor from doing such.

Ok, so you have done end game raiding and obtained end game raiding gear for your efforts. Grats.

Originally Posted by Shadowbourn

But now with RL changes i cant afford to do this although i would love to be able too. And now with my situation i still want to work for my stats and loadout. I dont want to just hit the lotro store and buy my top tier armor although if this was the only option the dev gave me i wouldnt turn it down.

There is no top tier armor in the store, and it concerns me very much that you admit your would buy that from the store. I hope you know, there is end-game armor available as barter for skirmish currency in the game. Additionally, all you need to do to obtain the Orthanc set is clear Orthanc on T1 = something easily pugged on any server at any time of day. Each wing takes 45 minutes.

Originally Posted by Shadowbourn

But why not bring in more 1 man instance runs for gaining the top in game armor the same as the 12 man raids. Ideally i want to log in have my hour of game play not standing there trying to pug a position get no where and log off pi**ed off with the game but to log in hit my skirmish tab go into my solo instance run my instance get my token/s and save for that gear. Now ratio wise i'd be happy obviously earning less than a 12 man raid. But least to be given the chance to do the instance run and at least come away slightly closer to earning that epic armor. Even if stats were slightly reduced for solo instancing armor fair enough, i could understand this and live with it.

So you don't have the time to be on a raiding kin (surprising, my raiding kin has many very happy casuals) and don't want to pug, so you would like to see solo instancing rewarding as raiding? I completely disagree with this. For whatever reason you cannot raid, if you cannot put the effort you should not get the reward. Your solo time is at your convenience, vs. the organization and coordination that will take to get 12 people to successfully complete content. I would abhor to see a system were solo play becomes the easy way to obtain good gear, as end game raiding would suffer from it.

Originally Posted by Shadowbourn

Really to sum up i cant see why this cannot be implemented into the game to keep both kinship and solo players wanting to log and play when they get the chance. So if any devs decide to read this thread concider us solo players and perhaps look into giving us end game content solo play equivilant to raiding armor.

You already have Draigoch armor, you can also get moors set soloing. You could additionally just pug the easy Orthanc T1 wings. I don't think soloers "suffer" at all and, whilst I appreciate not everyone is made for raiding, if you are not planning on doing the harder content you don't need the better gear.

I agree with Fexalicious. Running a Draig run takes a half hour and you get a lot of seals to use for that armor. Plus it can be easily pugged. If your against grouping at all then you can get the crafted gear. If you want the good end game gear then you have to be willing to put in the time and effort for it.

It seems simple to me: if one is not running end-game raid content, one does not need end-game raid gear. Soloers (and I am mostly one of those), simply don't need raid-quality gear for solo content. I've quite comfortably soloed all of Dunland and reached level 75 wearing crafted level 60 gear and wielding third-age sub-65 legendary items.

It's like wanting a full set of plate armour to wear while fly-fishing.

What am I missing?

No.

A lot of the best gear in the game (jewelry, off-hand weapons) is already available through crafting. You can run a Draigoch PUG in well under 30 minutes (and if you're having problems organising people, well that's what kins are for) which will get you armour that's pretty close to top-tier. Second age L75 symbols are widely available and cheap on the AH. Star-lit crystals will boost a 2nd age up close to 1st age ratings. The game already provides ample progression for those who can only play for an hour, there's no need for any more.

If you can only play for an hour, don't expect to get the very best gear, that's absurd. Frankly, it's so absurd that I have my doubts your post was serious.

I would like to see solo instances of endgame raids for wholly another reason, but the end result could maybe suit the OP as well.

I have been playing the game for nearly 5 years, and one of the main reasons for playing is that I have a chronic illness that can strike at any time, and is very painful when it does - distraction is a surprisingly efficient form of pain management. On top of this, part of my treatment requires me to drink 5 ltrs of fluid a day, dosed with vitamin C to keep flushing my system. Additionaly, I am a stay at home parent with kids to care for.

As you can imagine with this combination, the chances of me having to drop out right in the middle of doing a raid or any group content that lasts around an hour is probably greater than 50% on any given instance. I can't / won't do group content on this basis, as it would be manifestly unfair to impose that on other players, and even if I did, I would imagine I would earn myself such a bad reputation by doing so as to never get invited to groups again very quickly. I have multiple max level characters, on more than one server, but having not done a lot of any group content, and with the game really not requiring it till pretty much end game these days, I also don't really have the required knowledge of group mechanics to be able to just jump in and try it in a PUG on a good night.

I would LOVE to see some of the end game content I have missed over the years. The soloification of the Epic books was an absolute high point in the game for me, as I was finally able to play my way through so much I had missed. I don't want the end game rewards, though if they were to be provided at a greatly scaled back rate so that soloing this content was much less viable (say at least 5 times more time consuming?), I can't see that it would hurt.

I would not in any way like to see the original content dumbed down, but rather, like the Hall of Mirrors was done for the Epic line in Moria, a seperate solo instance for those that for whatever reason cannot do it as a group / raid. I would be just as happy if this didn't happen till after the instances were no longer the end game conent - e.g. now that Isengard is where it's at, Mirkwood content outside of the Epic line was to get solo versions added - this way it wouldn't pull people away from the pool that are looking to raid end game content, thus making it harder to form groups.

I would also like to point out something to those that may not know this:

Through having come down with a chronic illness at a later stage of life (in my 30's) I have come into contact with a number of people that have been ill for all of their life. Many of these people among the younger age group, use the internet and MMO's as their main form of contact with the outside world, but have very limited social skills, and very low confidence. It was one of these people that introduced me to this game whilst we both shared a hospital ward for a week. Some of them are actually uncofortable with grouping, but are very often that helpful crafter giving away lower level gear, or the person taking the time to give advice when questions pop up in advice channel, giving a musical performance with characters on mutliple accounts, or in other ways contributing to this game in ways that other "hardcore" players do not, but which add so much to this game.

Prior to LotRO I had played EQ, and while young, with no kids and healthy I lead raids, was in the top 5 rankings on my server for the equivelant of skirmishes etc, etc. These days there's no chance of that sort of dedicated game time, but I do miss seeing the end game content which so much work goes into. I have grouped on a number of occasions with people who either understand my condition and / or share similar circumstances, but in a way that only compounds the issue because more than one person has to drop out suddenly, making it even harder.

If you begrudge these people being able to slowly gain the same thing you can gain in a shorter time period, or don't think they should get to play the same content you do because they don't have to "suffer" raiding for it, your a much meaner person than I would care to meet. I know one person who has quit LotRO after being often /mock 'd for their unwillingness to spar, being called out on having useless gear (depsite wearing a full set of at the time top tier armour/jewlery they had crafted on their own) and other elitisms. Maybe this is the kind of reason games like Skyrim, which to me seems very shallow in comparison to the richness of this game, are attracting such good sales - some people don't like the way they are supposed to conform to the mean in an online game to be accepted. I hope not.

Originally Posted by Eriandor

I would like to see solo instances of endgame raids for wholly another reason, but the end result could maybe suit the OP as well.

A solo instance cannot be a raid. It is, by definition and in practice, impossible.

Originally Posted by Eriandor

I have been playing the game for nearly 5 years, and one of the main reasons for playing is that I have a chronic illness that can strike at any time, and is very painful when it does - distraction is a surprisingly efficient form of pain management. On top of this, part of my treatment requires me to drink 5 ltrs of fluid a day, dosed with vitamin C to keep flushing my system. Additionaly, I am a stay at home parent with kids to care for.

Sounds like a hard situation, and I'm sure everyone here sympathizes as we all have our own situations to deal with.

Originally Posted by Eriandor

As you can imagine with this combination, the chances of me having to drop out right in the middle of doing a raid or any group content that lasts around an hour is probably greater than 50% on any given instance. I can't / won't do group content on this basis, as it would be manifestly unfair to impose that on other players, and even if I did, I would imagine I would earn myself such a bad reputation by doing so as to never get invited to groups again very quickly. I have multiple max level characters, on more than one server, but having not done a lot of any group content, and with the game really not requiring it till pretty much end game these days, I also don't really have the required knowledge of group mechanics to be able to just jump in and try it in a PUG on a good night.

Indeed leaving groups mid way for whatever reason would quickly get you a reputation of "person who can't complete long content." It is unfortunate but understandable and the game provides plenty of soloable content to counter this.

Originally Posted by Eriandor

I would LOVE to see some of the end game content I have missed over the years. The soloification of the Epic books was an absolute high point in the game for me, as I was finally able to play my way through so much I had missed. I don't want the end game rewards, though if they were to be provided at a greatly scaled back rate so that soloing this content was much less viable (say at least 5 times more time consuming?), I can't see that it would hurt.

Making the Epic available to soloers was a good step since the content was story focused. End game raids are, on the other hand, mechanic focused and as such serve little purpose to the soloer in the way of "content" as the point of the raid is the coordination of a fight, the overcoming of a challenge as a team, and the rewards for your efforts. I would not oppose to a "OD skirmish" that allows you to solo through a skirmished version of OD to see Gortheron's comment. But make no mistake, no amount of solo time investment will ever counter the variable of team effort. In order to successfully raid T2 content, you must sustain a group of skilled players who can max their characters and are available at the same time as you are, to then coordinate all those 12 different personalities and skills in one coreography for as long as it takes until it is perfectly executed. The coordination between different people is unquantifiable and therefore irreplaceable and there would be no direct soloing challenge that could compare or deserve a similar reward.

Originally Posted by Eriandor

I would not in any way like to see the original content dumbed down, but rather, like the Hall of Mirrors was done for the Epic line in Moria, a seperate solo instance for those that for whatever reason cannot do it as a group / raid. I would be just as happy if this didn't happen till after the instances were no longer the end game conent - e.g. now that Isengard is where it's at, Mirkwood content outside of the Epic line was to get solo versions added - this way it wouldn't pull people away from the pool that are looking to raid end game content, thus making it harder to form groups.

As above.

Originally Posted by Eriandor

I would also like to point out something to those that may not know this:

Through having come down with a chronic illness at a later stage of life (in my 30's) I have come into contact with a number of people that have been ill for all of their life. Many of these people among the younger age group, use the internet and MMO's as their main form of contact with the outside world, but have very limited social skills, and very low confidence. It was one of these people that introduced me to this game whilst we both shared a hospital ward for a week. Some of them are actually uncofortable with grouping, but are very often that helpful crafter giving away lower level gear, or the person taking the time to give advice when questions pop up in advice channel, giving a musical performance with characters on mutliple accounts, or in other ways contributing to this game in ways that other "hardcore" players do not, but which add so much to this game.

The personal conditions of any individual do not devalue those of others nor should they give that individual a pass over others. As I have expressed in other threads, every segment of the lotro population contributes to the game and to the game's developer coffers in their own way.

Originally Posted by Eriandor

Prior to LotRO I had played EQ, and while young, with no kids and healthy I lead raids, was in the top 5 rankings on my server for the equivelant of skirmishes etc, etc. These days there's no chance of that sort of dedicated game time, but I do miss seeing the end game content which so much work goes into. I have grouped on a number of occasions with people who either understand my condition and / or share similar circumstances, but in a way that only compounds the issue because more than one person has to drop out suddenly, making it even harder.

As a couple of paragraphs above.

Originally Posted by Eriandor

If you begrudge these people being able to slowly gain the same thing you can gain in a shorter time period, or don't think they should get to play the same content you do because they don't have to "suffer" raiding for it, your a much meaner person than I would care to meet.

I do not think anyone begrudges the people you describe nor do I think anyone has an issue with them "seeing" the content. I think the issue you will find is that most want to have equal rewards for their soloing as raiders obtain, which would be desperately unfair for the raiders as rewards should be directly linked to effort and, as I mentioned earlier, the effort demanded by working in a group is incomparable to that demanded to work by yourself.

Originally Posted by Eriandor

I know one person who has quit LotRO after being often /mock 'd for their unwillingness to spar, being called out on having useless gear (depsite wearing a full set of at the time top tier armour/jewlery they had crafted on their own) and other elitisms.

This person sounds like a weak individual if he would quit a game he likes because some bullies called him out. I do note the usage of the word "elitism" here and I will give you the benefit of the doubt of understanding you are not attempting to equate raiders with elitism. If you care what others think of you, you are their slave. If you are playing your game to have fun, and your fun is not on end gaming or sparring, then why would you care what the end gamers of sparrers think of you? I'm not a professional athlete. They probably think I'm very unfit. Some may even comment on the disparity of my rest time or the unbalanced meals I consume. And why should I care if my objective is not that of theirs and my fun is not equal to theirs?

Originally Posted by Eriandor

Maybe this is the kind of reason games like Skyrim, which to me seems very shallow in comparison to the richness of this game, are attracting such good sales - some people don't like the way they are supposed to conform to the mean in an online game to be accepted. I hope not.

I dispute that there is a norm to conform to be accepted in this game. There are plenty of casual, roleplaying, leveling kinships that enjoy a very casual atmosphere, want little to do with raiding, and see game content through many characters by slow progression. Raiding is just one aspect and if you aspire to be accepted by the raiders, then you want to be a raider yourself, then you obviously need to do what is required to operate in that community.

Skyrim is a single player experience with no option for multiplayer. Lord of the Rings Online is a multiplayer experience that gives you the freedom to enjoy the game solo if you wish, with optional multiplayer content designed to satisfy its multiplayer community. I don't see how the two are comparable in the context you bring up.

Sigh. While I agree with OP soooo much, I honesty don't think devs have enough courage to pull it off.

Courage? Yes. It's seen how many of those who play in groups oppose ALL kind of solo content, IF there was even remote chance to get the same (or even close) rewards as they are getting. No matter if soloer would have to spend 100 hours to get the same reward where they spend 1 hour, the rage is so great that devs will not touch this packet of dynamite. Unfortunately.

"Effort. Work. Dedication. Deserve". Those words come up so many times when soloers ask SOME meaningful way to improve their characters in end-game, that it's beyond me, as this is a game, not a job. All the time soloers say they want OPTIONS, while keeping the group content, but still that doesn't count: many groupers just don't want soloers to get what they have, simple as that. And that is very selfish.

Amen to Fexalicious. Well-said indeed.

I do not agree with the OP, if your life takes you to a place where you don't have the time to raid for your gear, then move on.

Gear aside though, I agree that solo end-game content should be available for those players who would like to experience the full aspect of the story being told and are limited in one way or another. Myself, I never PUG new content and have sometimes taken weeks to find the right people for my raids, I might not use the solo-instance feature even if it were available. But say I invested all this time into the game, and just wanted to feel some sense of completion before moving on, having an end-game scaled down, solo version available with no rewards, or minimal rewards, doesn't seem like such a bad idea.

Although I can see why Turbine wouldn't want players feeling a sense of completion... I fear when Saruman falls I may lose interest altogether and I'm sure Turbine's well aware of this fact

EDIT It seems I can't set foot here on forums at all without some screamer giving me negative reputation. I'll remove the lot.

Those are called skirmishes and Limlight Dailies. Why ask for what you already have?

Even after having played as a soloer for six months, I can not understand this mentality. I don't have the Orthanc set. I don't have any Orthanc jewelry or cloak. I don't have a first age weapon. I can not understand this mentality. I do not have the best gear. I do not need it. I do not want it. I can not understand this mentality.

Originally Posted by Macroscian

hardcore no-lifers.

I would neg rep you if I could, if only for the implication that raiders in LOTRO are "hardcore no-lifers".

People need to get this into their heads. LOTRO doesn't have any content for "no-lifers". Pretty much everything is on a weekly lock, so once you complete it, you have a week of "life" to live. LOTRO is a very "casual" game, from head to toe.

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

All the time soloers say they want OPTIONS, while keeping the group content, but still that doesn't count: many groupers just don't want soloers to get what they have, simple as that. And that is very selfish.

Soloers already have more content than groupers do at endgame, so why do they need more?

It's called doing skirmishes and quests. Seriously you want solo instances that do not take long (as you don't have time for raids) and still give the best rewards? That would be a massive fail. Grind some solo skirmishes, they were made for people with not much time, you can still barter some good rewards with marks and medals.

Originally Posted by Fexalicious

This person sounds like a weak individual if he would quit a game he likes because some bullies called him out. I do note the usage of the word "elitism" here and I will give you the benefit of the doubt of understanding you are not attempting to equate raiders with elitism. If you care what others think of you, you are their slave. If you are playing your game to have fun, and your fun is not on end gaming or sparring, then why would you care what the end gamers of sparrers think of you? I'm not a professional athlete. They probably think I'm very unfit. Some may even comment on the disparity of my rest time or the unbalanced meals I consume. And why should I care if my objective is not that of theirs and my fun is not equal to theirs?

Yep, she was the weakest person I ever met. In the five years I knew her she went through dialysis multiple days a week just to stay alive while hoping for a kidney trasnplant. Like me, she played the game to escape from a real world that wasn't a real nice place for her a lot of the time. Unfortunatley for her she just happened to meet one of those idiots we all unfortunately come across from time to time, on a particularly bad health day, on the day she had finally got her crafting to a level where she could make the best crafted gear in game, and was feeling a sense of pride in what she had achieved. She declined 3 spar request from this random without any contact and they then started to mock her in ooc, she sent them a tell explaining she was just a casual player and wasn't interested, and was then inspected and mocked for her poor gear. So yeah, this 13 year old girl burst into tears. When her parents found out the cause, they sat and talked with her and mutually agreed that perhaps this was the wrong place for her to be. I don't suggest in any way that the idiot who did this on this occasion is at all reprasentive of most people on LotRO, and indeed it's probably the most mature and friendly MMO I've ever come across. I don't equate raiders with elitism, and did not mean to allude that, so will apolagise if it was taken that way. People who take on the toughtest content at the time it is current deserve the reward of the best gear, and should be rightly proud of what they have achieved - elitism and mocking others for not doing as they do is another thing.

I don't have any problem with the rest of your response to my posts, and it's nice to see someone who can post their refutations without resorting to attacking / flaming, but rather to give a reasoned response. Normally I don't respond to things said in response to a post I make, but trust me, could you know this girl, you would never, ever, call her weak.

On a happier note, I can inform you she recently got a matching kidney donor and is now leading a much better quality of life

I apolagise for this brief derail, and return you to your regularly scheduled discussions

P.S. By the time I got to the end of typing this post, I had calmed down from my intial reaction to seeing this girl called weak, and almost decided not to post it, as it was definatley an emotional reaction. I then sat and thought about it for a while, and decided that if, in posting it, I made a single person stop behaving as the person in my example above did, it would not be a wasted post. In doing so, I apolagise to Fexalicious for making a emotional response to your post to do so, and ask your forgiveness.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Merebrand

Soloers already have more content than groupers do at endgame, so why do they need more?

Naturally I meant content that is done more than once. Solores have MORE you say? Please, could you list END-GAME content that soloers can do but groupers can't? As for myself, I can list the whole Instance Finder content (excluding most skirmishes) as an example that is off-limits for soloers.

Originally Posted by Eriandor

Yep, she was the weakest person I ever met. In the five years I knew her she went through dialysis multiple days a week just to stay alive while hoping for a kidney trasnplant. Like me, she played the game to escape from a real world that wasn't a real nice place for her a lot of the time.

That is indeed a very difficult circumstance that must have been hard for someone so young to accept and confront. I appreciate that from your perspective and having the context it may have been like a heartless answer from me, but in the end the result you described was not the situation I assigned as weak. Someone who quits a game they enjoy because of some jerk is weak. This girl left the game after realizing she was not on the frame of mind to deal with the occasional jerk that inevitably appears online. A wise choice by her parents and her.

Originally Posted by Eriandor

Unfortunatley for her she just happened to meet one of those idiots we all unfortunately come across from time to time, on a particularly bad health day, on the day she had finally got her crafting to a level where she could make the best crafted gear in game, and was feeling a sense of pride in what she had achieved. She declined 3 spar request from this random without any contact and they then started to mock her in ooc, she sent them a tell explaining she was just a casual player and wasn't interested, and was then inspected and mocked for her poor gear. So yeah, this 13 year old girl burst into tears. When her parents found out the cause, they sat and talked with her and mutually agreed that perhaps this was the wrong place for her to be. I don't suggest in any way that the idiot who did this on this occasion is at all reprasentive of most people on LotRO, and indeed it's probably the most mature and friendly MMO I've ever come across. I don't equate raiders with elitism, and did not mean to allude that, so will apolagise if it was taken that way. People who take on the toughtest content at the time it is current deserve the reward of the best gear, and should be rightly proud of what they have achieved - elitism and mocking others for not doing as they do is another thing.

I agree that whoever did that was out of place and in my view an idiot and a bully. It is unfortunate this girl didn't know that you can have sparring requests turned off by default, nor that she can be anonymous so nobody could inspect her. You brought her situation up on the context of raiding and instancing and rewards, and I stand by my previous statements: if someone wants to be on the raiding circle, they have to have the capabilities to be there, just like any other hobby in life.

The online world is merciless and classless in a variety of ways. I must endure r.ape jokes, caricatures of men kicking pregnant women and any other variety of substantial hide-behind-your-monitor debauchery that is enabled by removing societal pressure from the individual and allowing consequence-free action. Do I endorse or support it? No. But in that same way it does not represent me or what I do and I do not want to see such behavior associated with raiding, hence my response.

Originally Posted by Eriandor

I don't have any problem with the rest of your response to my posts, and it's nice to see someone who can post their refutations without resorting to attacking / flaming, but rather to give a reasoned response. Normally I don't respond to things said in response to a post I make, but trust me, could you know this girl, you would never, ever, call her weak.

As above

Originally Posted by Eriandor

On a happier note, I can inform you she recently got a matching kidney donor and is now leading a much better quality of life

That is indeed good news. I have older friends without such luck and fully appreciate what she went through.

Originally Posted by Eriandor

I apolagise for this brief derail, and return you to your regularly scheduled discussions

P.S. By the time I got to the end of typing this post, I had calmed down from my intial reaction to seeing this girl called weak, and almost decided not to post it, as it was definatley an emotional reaction. I then sat and thought about it for a while, and decided that if, in posting it, I made a single person stop behaving as the person in my example above did, it would not be a wasted post. In doing so, I apolagise to Fexalicious for making a emotional response to your post to do so, and ask your forgiveness.

Thanks.

It is only natural to stand up for your friends and, given the context, I understand your reaction. But, without the context, I appreciate you understand mine. In the end, we were describing different situations.

*End derail*

Leaving aside the whole discussion about the fate of single persons I think there are 2 different statements of soloers that should be treated differently

a) Soloers should have access to endgame gear
b) Soloers should have their own endgame content (with appropriate endgame gear)

It´s quite often not clear what people mean

a) is focussed on getting the gear through now existant sologame. That means nothing else as: "I want that gear, but I´m unable to play my class well enough to not screw up a raid, so give me that gear, as I pay for the game". And it´s wrong, because you pay to play the game, not to win it. it´s similiar to the gym. You pay for access to the gym, not for getting the muscles, those are your own work to do.

b) means "I want to play for fun and challenge, but I don´t want to raid, or have no time, or play at off-peak hours. I want to play equally challenging content and get rewarded for it". That´s a point of view which I share. I´m for rewarding endgame solo content, but it has to be as challenging as raid content to justify similiar rewards

Right now it´s like this:
less than 1% of all Lvl 75 completed Saruman T2
less than 0,1% of all Lvl 75 completed Fire/Frost Challenge
more than 95% (if not 99%) of all Lvl 75 completed any available solo content

The skill level involved is just so different and that´s what raiders complain about. When equally challenging solo content is made, most of the raiders won´t have a problem with it

And a last point:
Lotro is not about no-life 24h a day playing. It´s not too hard to become a great raider with less than 10h play time a week. The average American/European watches more than 4 hours of TV a day.

Originally Posted by Shadowbourn

Okay before all you kinnies whine and winge about 1 man instancing. Look at playing this game as a solo player that has not enough time to invest into playing lotro on a regular time base for doing 12 man raiding in a kinship. Ive been playing since beta and been in 4 main kinships on the snowbourn server and done my time in leading runs as well as getting that top tier armor from doing such.

But now with RL changes i cant afford to do this although i would love to be able too. And now with my situation i still want to work for my stats and loadout. I dont want to just hit the lotro store and buy my top tier armor although if this was the only option the dev gave me i wouldnt turn it down. But why not bring in more 1 man instance runs for gaining the top in game armor the same as the 12 man raids. Ideally i want to log in have my hour of game play not standing there trying to pug a position get no where and log off pi**ed off with the game but to log in hit my skirmish tab go into my solo instance run my instance get my token/s and save for that gear. Now ratio wise i'd be happy obviously earning less than a 12 man raid. But least to be given the chance to do the instance run and at least come away slightly closer to earning that epic armor. Even if stats were slightly reduced for solo instancing armor fair enough, i could understand this and live with it.

Really to sum up i cant see why this cannot be implemented into the game to keep both kinship and solo players wanting to log and play when they get the chance. So if any devs decide to read this thread concider us solo players and perhaps look into giving us end game content solo play equivilant to raiding armor.

I skimmed the first part of this Shadowbourn so I think I get your general drift, and I'm goign to have to disagree with you - at least in part. Few games have such a rich solo experience as this one does - and I think it's important for players to have to group together and work as a team to complete important challenges and get the best gear.

I think the right way to go about this isn't to expand on solo play - it's to make group play more easy to access and particpate in. One way they could do that is by increasing the performance of their Instance Finder (which is sorely lacking) and add raids to the mix as well, that way people could queue up easily and do raids together. Because I do agree with you on that point, and it's unreastlic to expect players to be able to commit to a strict raiding schedule involving 12 different people all finding the time to show up at once to get stuff done. NOt all of us can do that. There is a thing called Real Life that gets in the way.

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

"Effort. Work. Dedication. Deserve". Those words come up so many times when soloers ask SOME meaningful way to improve their characters in end-game, that it's beyond me, as this is a game, not a job. All the time soloers say they want OPTIONS, while keeping the group content, but still that doesn't count: many groupers just don't want soloers to get what they have, simple as that. And that is very selfish.

I presume you have the same opinion about the Olympics then? After all, the athletes competing there are the epitome of hardcore no-lifers, aren't they? They're not getting paid, it's a bunch of games, not a job. Ordinary people should also have the 'OPTION' to appear on TV and get a gold medal without having to go through all this training and competition, shouldn't they?

No, I don't think raiding in Lotro comes even remotely close to the effort and dedication needed of an Olympic athlete, but you clearly don't believe they should be rewarded, so why not direct your angst at them?

Originally Posted by Chris91

The skill level involved is just so different and that´s what raiders complain about. When equally challenging solo content is made, most of the raiders won´t have a problem with it.

Well, it's an interesting idea. Of course, developing comparably challenging solo content would require far more effort than group content, as it would have to be balanced and designed differently for each class (or, at least, balanced differently for ranged vs melee vs tactical). But let's say they did design a solo instance on a weekly lock that handed out a token that could be bartered for a 1st age when you had nine of them (so you had the same chance of getting one as completing a HM wing). But it would take an hour or more to complete and require such precision that a skilled player would have to attempt it five or ten times before learning how to beat it, and even then could easily fail if they didn't get everything right.

I'm pretty sure the people playing that instance would, by-and-large, just be the same people who raid today. I very much doubt that it would have the effect of opening up rewards to a significantly larger section of the community, since most of them, as seen above, simply aren't interested in putting in the effort.

Originally Posted by Eriandor

I would like to see solo instances of endgame raids for wholly another reason, but the end result could maybe suit the OP as well.

I have been playing the game for nearly 5 years, and one of the main reasons for playing is that I have a chronic illness that can strike at any time, and is very painful when it does - distraction is a surprisingly efficient form of pain management. On top of this, part of my treatment requires me to drink 5 ltrs of fluid a day, dosed with vitamin C to keep flushing my system. Additionaly, I am a stay at home parent with kids to care for.

As you can imagine with this combination, the chances of me having to drop out right in the middle of doing a raid or any group content that lasts around an hour is probably greater than 50% on any given instance. I can't / won't do group content on this basis, as it would be manifestly unfair to impose that on other players, and even if I did, I would imagine I would earn myself such a bad reputation by doing so as to never get invited to groups again very quickly. I have multiple max level characters, on more than one server, but having not done a lot of any group content, and with the game really not requiring it till pretty much end game these days, I also don't really have the required knowledge of group mechanics to be able to just jump in and try it in a PUG on a good night.

I would LOVE to see some of the end game content I have missed over the years. The soloification of the Epic books was an absolute high point in the game for me, as I was finally able to play my way through so much I had missed. I don't want the end game rewards, though if they were to be provided at a greatly scaled back rate so that soloing this content was much less viable (say at least 5 times more time consuming?), I can't see that it would hurt.

I would not in any way like to see the original content dumbed down, but rather, like the Hall of Mirrors was done for the Epic line in Moria, a seperate solo instance for those that for whatever reason cannot do it as a group / raid. I would be just as happy if this didn't happen till after the instances were no longer the end game conent - e.g. now that Isengard is where it's at, Mirkwood content outside of the Epic line was to get solo versions added - this way it wouldn't pull people away from the pool that are looking to raid end game content, thus making it harder to form groups.

I would also like to point out something to those that may not know this:

Through having come down with a chronic illness at a later stage of life (in my 30's) I have come into contact with a number of people that have been ill for all of their life. Many of these people among the younger age group, use the internet and MMO's as their main form of contact with the outside world, but have very limited social skills, and very low confidence. It was one of these people that introduced me to this game whilst we both shared a hospital ward for a week. Some of them are actually uncofortable with grouping, but are very often that helpful crafter giving away lower level gear, or the person taking the time to give advice when questions pop up in advice channel, giving a musical performance with characters on mutliple accounts, or in other ways contributing to this game in ways that other "hardcore" players do not, but which add so much to this game.

Prior to LotRO I had played EQ, and while young, with no kids and healthy I lead raids, was in the top 5 rankings on my server for the equivelant of skirmishes etc, etc. These days there's no chance of that sort of dedicated game time, but I do miss seeing the end game content which so much work goes into. I have grouped on a number of occasions with people who either understand my condition and / or share similar circumstances, but in a way that only compounds the issue because more than one person has to drop out suddenly, making it even harder.

If you begrudge these people being able to slowly gain the same thing you can gain in a shorter time period, or don't think they should get to play the same content you do because they don't have to "suffer" raiding for it, your a much meaner person than I would care to meet. I know one person who has quit LotRO after being often /mock 'd for their unwillingness to spar, being called out on having useless gear (depsite wearing a full set of at the time top tier armour/jewlery they had crafted on their own) and other elitisms. Maybe this is the kind of reason games like Skyrim, which to me seems very shallow in comparison to the richness of this game, are attracting such good sales - some people don't like the way they are supposed to conform to the mean in an online game to be accepted. I hope not.

If you want to exp end game raiding with people who understand, than come over to my server and you will be welcome with open arms unto my kin. My wife and I, who both lead a end game raiding kin, have 2 kids that make us understand where you are coming from. Our daughter has one leg and we have a son with CP. And I am a honest person and could never promise you T2CM end game, but we would be more than happy to help you with end game stuff T1 with a understanding that you may not always be able to finish what you started. Its people like you and I that we started Ramble On, we have shown that you do not to be all that to get things done and still be apart of something great........

Originally Posted by remellan

I presume you have the same opinion about the Olympics then? After all, the athletes competing there are the epitome of hardcore no-lifers, aren't they? They're not getting paid, it's a bunch of games, not a job. Ordinary people should also have the 'OPTION' to appear on TV and get a gold medal without having to go through all this training and competition, shouldn't they?

No, I don't think raiding in Lotro comes even remotely close to the effort and dedication needed of an Olympic athlete, but you clearly don't believe they should be rewarded, so why not direct your angst at them?

So, groupers/raiders are like olympic athletes and soloers are like ordinary couch-potatoes then, right? Wow, there's some elitism.

There is a high chance that I open a can of worms here but I say this anyway: Altough I prefer soloing, I have been grouping and raiding as well, both in LOTRO and other games as well. So it's not that I am totally clueless what that is about. The thing is that the hardest thing is to wait for group to form and to follow orders. The handful (or one good one) of players who lead the raid has actually to be a good player: he/she has to handle it all, know what to do and adapt to situations. But for many others it's just doing their job at right time, and that is often a lot easier than many solo quests, where YOU have to perform 100% right or YOU are dead. There is no-one to cover your back when that "oops" -moment comes.

I am not saying that grouping/raiding is easier than soloing, I am just saying that most instances are really not THAT hard as some people want to believe. And certainly not that hard that they should get 100 shiny whatever where soloer get 1 shiny, as the current situation seems to be...

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

So, groupers/raiders are like olympic athletes and soloers are like ordinary couch-potatoes then, right? Wow, there's some elitism.

I don't understand this comment. Please define elitism. The comparison above was meant to differentiate between the people who put time, resources and effort into complying to specific rules and requirements of a sport to be competitive, and the average human being who is not interested/involved in such activities. I don't regard athletes as elitists, but rather see them as people with different motivations to mine, so not sure how you could have interpreted the previous post and arrived at the conclusion that the poster is in any way "elitist" by the modern usage of the word.

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

There is a high chance that I open a can of worms here but I say this anyway: Altough I prefer soloing, I have been grouping and raiding as well, both in LOTRO and other games as well. So it's not that I am totally clueless what that is about.

Sometimes a little knowledge can be a terrible thing.

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

The thing is that the hardest thing is to wait for group to form and to follow orders.

I disagree. The hardest part of T2 raiding is forming a consistent group of 12 people who have their characters maxed or nearly so and are available to decipher the mechanics of an encounter over a period of time, then execute strategy. I am fairly certain most raiding kins in lotro will agree that learning a raid is a group effort where everyone is helping, and it is not the allmighty raid leader who figured out that raid.

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

The handful (or one good one) of players who lead the raid has actually to be a good player: he/she has to handle it all, know what to do and adapt to situations. But for many others it's just doing their job at right time, and that is often a lot easier than many solo quests, where YOU have to perform 100% right or YOU are dead. There is no-one to cover your back when that "oops" -moment comes.

I must again disagree completely. Doing a challenge as Shadow T2, there is no room for any of the 12 people in the raid to make mistakes. Everyone not only has to know their job but must execute it perfectly, or it's a wipe. Quests do not put the fate of 12 people on the hands of 1, and they happen at your leisure and your pace, and are designed to be beaten by players with less than great gear. Raids are the opposite.

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

I am not saying that soloing is easier than grouping/raiding,

Unfortunate, since I would fully agree with that statement.

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

I am just saying that most instances are really not THAT hard as some people want to believe. And certainly not that hard that they should get 100 shiny whatever where soloer get 1 shiny, as the current situation seems to be...

It is very hard to understand a comment like this from someone who hasn't beaten the hardest raid in the game on its challenge (as I highly doubt someone from any of those kinships would be here positing that this is easy) What are you referencing when you say that Saruman T2C isn't "that" hard? As far as I can see, most people in the game have no issues getting to 75 and doing solo content whereas Orthanc T2C has been completed by few groups.

I have done all the solo content in the game. Several times over several characters. From my experience, raiding is exponentially harder both in what it demands from the individual as a solo player and what it demands of the individual as a team player. And as I expressed in another post, the team effort is an unquantifiable effort that cannot be comparable to any solo effort. Having to communicate and operate with other people is not equatable to operating by yourself, it's just not feasible. However the solo player is never faced with the challenges the raiders put themselves in front of, and as such do not need the gear maximization.

Further, I dispute that there is any 100-1 "shiny" ratio. The crafted jewelery and available limelight jewelery are comparable and in many instances better than the loot available from Orthanc T2. The Draigoch armor is mostly available without ever grouping, as are the moors sets, and the Orthanc armor is tied to the lowest difficulty setting that is easily pugged. The only discrepancy in loot is the absurdity of the rewards from T2 wings being available as a random mob drop and that many skirmishes yield better jewelery. T2 Orthanc loot should actually be buffed.

Originally Posted by Fexalicious

I don't understand this comment. Please define elitism. The comparison above was meant to differentiate between the people who put time, resources and effort into complying to specific rules and requirements of a sport to be competitive, and the average human being who is not interested/involved in such activities. I don't regard athletes as elitists, but rather see them as people with different motivations to mine, so not sure how you could have interpreted the previous post and arrived at the conclusion that the poster is in any way "elitist" by the modern usage of the word.



Sometimes a little knowledge can be a terrible thing.



I disagree. The hardest part of T2 raiding is forming a consistent group of 12 people who have their characters maxed or nearly so and are available to decipher the mechanics of an encounter over a period of time, then execute strategy. I am fairly certain most raiding kins in lotro will agree that learning a raid is a group effort where everyone is helping, and it is not the allmighty raid leader who figured out that raid.




I must again disagree completely. Doing a challenge as Shadow T2, there is no room for any of the 12 people in the raid to make mistakes. Everyone not only has to know their job but must execute it perfectly, or it's a wipe. Quests do not put the fate of 12 people on the hands of 1, and they happen at your leisure and your pace, and are designed to be beaten by players with less than great gear. Raids are the opposite.




Unfortunate, since I would fully agree with that statement.



It is very hard to understand a comment like this from someone who hasn't beaten the hardest raid in the game on its challenge (as I highly doubt someone from any of those kinships would be here positing that this is easy) What are you referencing when you say that Saruman T2C isn't "that" hard? As far as I can see, most people in the game have no issues getting to 75 and doing solo content whereas Orthanc T2C has been completed by few groups.

I have done all the solo content in the game. Several times over several characters. From my experience, raiding is exponentially harder both in what it demands from the individual as a solo player and what it demands of the individual as a team player. And as I expressed in another post, the team effort is an unquantifiable effort that cannot be comparable to any solo effort. Having to communicate and operate with other people is not equatable to operating by yourself, it's just not feasible. However the solo player is never faced with the challenges the raiders put themselves in front of, and as such do not need the gear maximization.

Further, I dispute that there is any 100-1 "shiny" ratio. The crafted jewelery and available limelight jewelery are comparable and in many instances better than the loot available from Orthanc T2. The Draigoch armor is mostly available without ever grouping, as are the moors sets, and the Orthanc armor is tied to the lowest difficulty setting that is easily pugged. The only discrepancy in loot is the absurdity of the rewards from T2 wings being available as a random mob drop and that many skirmishes yield better jewelery. T2 Orthanc loot should actually be buffed.

very good Comment - I agrre with nearly all of it - especially that the Raid-Loot should be buffed - there are by far too much items you get outside the Raid that are (far) better than the drops you get for killing the hardest bosses in the Raid...

Originally Posted by Fexalicious

I don't understand this comment. Please define elitism. The comparison above was meant to differentiate between the people who put time, resources and effort into complying to specific rules and requirements of a sport to be competitive, and the average human being who is not interested/involved in such activities. I don't regard athletes as elitists, but rather see them as people with different motivations to mine, so not sure how you could have interpreted the previous post and arrived at the conclusion that the poster is in any way "elitist" by the modern usage of the word.

If you don't understand why I think it's elitist when some player compares grouping to olympic athlete and soloer to "ordinary man", then I am sorry, I cannot explain it to you. Also, it can lead to unnecessary name-calling (not by me or not necessary by you either, but other readers) so I better leave it there.

Originally Posted by Fexalicious

I disagree. The hardest part of T2 raiding is forming a consistent group of 12 people who have their characters maxed or nearly so and are available to decipher the mechanics of an encounter over a period of time, then execute strategy. I am fairly certain most raiding kins in lotro will agree that learning a raid is a group effort where everyone is helping, and it is not the allmighty raid leader who figured out that raid.

I was thinking more about PUG raiding here, kin raiding is a bit different when talking about learning the raid.

Originally Posted by Fexalicious

I must again disagree completely. Doing a challenge as Shadow T2, there is no room for any of the 12 people in the raid to make mistakes. Everyone not only has to know their job but must execute it perfectly, or it's a wipe. Quests do not put the fate of 12 people on the hands of 1, and they happen at your leisure and your pace, and are designed to be beaten by players with less than great gear. Raids are the opposite.

I haven't done Shadow T2 so I cannot say about that, but USUALLY there is room for some error, because there is 11 others. It's not always a wipe. But the same time, it's not like hard solo quests happen at your pace. For example, Death from Below where dwarves pretty much set the pace.

Originally Posted by Fexalicious

Unfortunate, since I would fully agree with that statement.

Fixed that, I meant other way around.

Originally Posted by Fexalicious

It is very hard to understand a comment like this from someone who hasn't beaten the hardest raid in the game on its challenge (as I highly doubt someone from any of those kinships would be here positing that this is easy) What are you referencing when you say that Saruman T2C isn't "that" hard? As far as I can see, most people in the game have no issues getting to 75 and doing solo content whereas Orthanc T2C has been completed by few groups.

I didn't mention Saruman T2C here at all. I was talking about raid/group quests IN GENERAL. Of course there's exceptions in everything.

Originally Posted by Fexalicious

However the solo player is never faced with the challenges the raiders put themselves in front of, and as such do not need the gear maximization.

This is a statement that is often used: "You don't raid so you don't need this and that". That is not the point. We ALL want to improve our characters. Usually you get that raid gear by doing the raid content, which means you didn't have that gear either and still you managed to do it. Which means you don't need it either So, "needing" this and that is moot point. No-one needs it, we all just want to improve our characters so that whatever we do would be a bit easier next time. Simple as that.

Originally Posted by Fexalicious

Further, I dispute that there is any 100-1 "shiny" ratio. The crafted jewelery and available limelight jewelery are comparable and in many instances better than the loot available from Orthanc T2. The Draigoch armor is mostly available without ever grouping, as are the moors sets, and the Orthanc armor is tied to the lowest difficulty setting that is easily pugged. The only discrepancy in loot is the absurdity of the rewards from T2 wings being available as a random mob drop and that many skirmishes yield better jewelery. T2 Orthanc loot should actually be buffed.

Well, you can't get Limlight jewelry solo. You have to beat 6-man instance for eggs, and you have to get reputation (by doing group content) before you can use it.

The 100-1 ratio was not accurate, it was to demonstrate how much "work" you need if you want to get that Draigoch armour solo, compared to if you group. I don't remember the exact numbers, but the comparison was made months ago and the numbers were something like that: meaning that no-one in their right minds tried to get those items solo.

All that aside, personally I don't want "raid" armour. I want GOOD solo equipment (set) that is even remotely close to other sets out there. And I want to earn it by doing hard solo content.

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

If you don't understand why I think it's elitist when some player compares grouping to olympic athlete and soloer to "ordinary man", then I am sorry, I cannot explain it to you. Also, it can lead to unnecessary name-calling (not by me or not necessary by you either, but other readers) so I better leave it there.

If you cannot explain it, then let's take it you never said it, since it does not make sense and the point of the or comparison stands without any argumentation to back your claim that it is elitist.

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

I was thinking more about PUG raiding here, kin raiding is a bit different when talking about learning the raid.

So you are referring to the T1 raiding content? Since tower of Orthanc T2C is harder and in some cases impossible to pug. Plus without the raiding kins leading the way to learn the mechanics, I doubt many pugs would be able to complete the content.

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

I haven't done Shadow T2 so I cannot say about that, but USUALLY there is room for some error, because there is 11 others. It's not always a wipe. But the same time, it's not like hard solo quests happen at your pace. For example, Death from Below where dwarves pretty much set the pace.

If you have never done it, then you do not know. I have done both and I assure you, one error from the Loremaster, one missed taunt from the tank, one late heal from a healer will almost certainly fail this challenge. There is no "general" or "usual" on this. It is what it is: challenging content designed to give none or minimal room for error. Sometimes you can overcome something by luck or outstanding skill on someone, but that is on top of the minimum very high gear, skill and coordination requirement that solo content does not demand.

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

I didn't mention Saruman T2C here at all. I was talking about raid/group quests IN GENERAL. Of course there's exceptions in everything.

You mentioned raiding as not "that" challenging. Saruman T2C is raiding and it is not an exception and it is really hard. Shadow, FnF are similar in that only few groups have completed them and even the easier Acid demand coordination and communication that goes beyond the scope of solo play.

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

This is a statement that is often used: "You don't raid so you don't need this and that". That is not the point. We ALL want to improve our characters. Usually you get that raid gear by doing the raid content, which means you didn't have that gear either and still you managed to do it. Which means you don't need it either So, "needing" this and that is moot point. No-one needs it, we all just want to improve our characters so that whatever we do would be a bit easier next time. Simple as that.

This is fallacy. You introduce an statement that wasn't made, and answer that statement that was not brought up. Instead of my point that the challenges encountered by the solo player do not necessitate gear maximization whereas those aspiring to complete a challenge such as Saruman do. Yes everyone "wants" to improve their character: then work on it. And if you are willing to put in the effort to overcome the hardest challenge in the game, which is Orthanc T2 challenges, you will obtain your reward. And yes, you NEED to work on your character progressively and raid progressively to complete T2C Orthanc. As I mentioned earlier, there is a progression to the gear needed to complete content. Lightning T2 is easier now that we know the mechanics and most of our raiders have obtained first agers on this wing, making us stronger so we can bring weaker characters without putting too much pressure on the healers. Farming one easier wing enabled us to access the others. When we first went into FnF, we got our butts handed to us and turned around to go farm gear, be it by completing Lightning or getting crafted/limelight.

The point is that the amount of effort demanded to complete an ungeared T2C and a geared one are not equal, and raiding kins raid with consistency so they actually do "need" the upgrades to ensure people don't wear out from the wipes. More on this can be found here. I can summarize to: raiding is a progression. Some lock will be easier and allow for non-geared clear, whereas others will demand maximization (like FnFC or SarumanC)

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

Well, you can't get Limlight jewelry solo. You have to beat 6-man instance for eggs, and you have to get reputation (by doing group content) before you can use it.

Group content that isn't raiding, takes all of 30 minutes, and requires no special gear. You can also buy the purples without the eggs and EVEN THOSE are better than many of the things that drop on T2 Tower of Orthanc. Yes, the raiding rewards are *that* pathetic!

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

The 100-1 ratio was not accurate, it was to demonstrate how much "work" you need if you want to get that Draigoch armour solo, compared to if you group. I don't remember the exact numbers, but the comparison was made months ago and the numbers were something like that: meaning that no-one in their right minds tried to get those items solo.

Interesting, since several people in my kin got that armor solo. I don't think they are out of their minds. Draigoch was a disappointing raid that is very easy to pug and complete for anyone with 30 minutes of free time. My kinship doesn't run this instance anymore because we find it boring, but marks and medallions can be obtain from a variety of places and with the availability of mark increase tomes the exclusively solo player can (and does) obtain the armor in less than a week. That's MUCH shorter than it took me to get my Orthanc Set.

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

All that aside, personally I don't want "raid" armour. I want GOOD solo equipment (set) that is even remotely close to other sets out there. And I want to earn it by doing hard solo content.

Crafted gear is actually very good, as are the moors set that you can get in less than a week of solo play. All you need to do is jump on a warg and earn a map, delete, repeat. I got 5000 commendations in about 3 hours of play. Again, this means you can obtain the full set in less than a week, which is also MUCH faster than the raiding set is unlocked and earned for raiders even. And the set itself is not the end.

I don't have an issue with Turbine adding solo instances for solo players to enjoy. I don't have an issue with gear that makes the instance worth it in the solo context. But the best rewards ought to be saved for the hardest content, and currently that is not the case.

Originally Posted by Fexalicious

If you cannot explain it, then let's take it you never said it, since it does not make sense and the point of the or comparison stands without any argumentation to back your claim that it is elitist.

At the risk of ruining perfectly good case of sarcasm, it's not because athletes/couch difference = elitism!!1!. It's magnitude of that difference (a.k.a nitpicking) so it's possible jogging/couch could be acceptable. In the first comparison couch person is demanding medals, in the second - just slightly slimmer shape

But I can't see where that could even matter - ientire comparison was about effort/reward, not about 12475,231% higher effort. Not about 23,2% higher effort either. Right?

Also, interesting what happens with words subjected to personal terminology - not to mention "elitism" is used almost as freely as... huh... "entitlement"? Entire troll threads can be constructed around these two. It would be much simpler (and honest) to replace both with "evil". Fake sophistication is not exactly convincing in case of video games...

Originally Posted by Fexalicious

So you are referring to the T1 raiding content? Since tower of Orthanc T2C is harder and in some cases impossible to pug. Plus without the raiding kins leading the way to learn the mechanics, I doubt many pugs would be able to complete the content.

Oh, but that's the thing. Turns out, raiding is not necessarily the same thing as raiding. So we arrive @ "personal terminology problem" once again. Don't even remind me about skraids then... Remember how they used to provide the best jewellery in the game? XD

And if someone claims T1 raids are not that hard, then it's all fine actually: just take a look at T1 rewards. Then look at crafted/LG stuff. Then look here again and type solo stuff is vastly underpowered with a straight face.

Originally Posted by Fexalicious

Sometimes you can overcome something by luck or outstanding skill on someone, but that is on top of the minimum very high gear, skill and coordination requirement that solo content does not demand.

+1

One of those cases where the result is more than sum of all individual parts. That reason alone is enough to trump "solo is comparable".

Originally Posted by Fexalicious

You mentioned raiding as not "that" challenging.

I am pretty curious about the ending of this one: "not that challenging as... " ? Olympics? /trollface

Originally Posted by Fexalicious

Interesting, since several people in my kin got that armor solo. I don't think they are out of their minds.

+1 w/ mind intact.

Ok, I lied, one Draigoch @ 2011, one Draigoch @ 2012. Multiple ones w/ bug or pugwipes. Not a single seal/s4m from those failures btw, so yeah, poor soloers And 4/6 Draigoch before even attempting Draigoch <== sch/lib/GB/skirms during old system. Now, with medallion exchange available, I'd just use my pile of marks from months of solo skirms pre-RoI. So it is actually easier for soloers now, eh?

Originally Posted by Fexalicious

All you need to do is jump on a freaver and earn a map, delete, repeat. I got 5000 commendations in about 3 hours of play.

+1, changed because warg costs TP :P Also, I love that part about maps, preemptive strike at "but it's PvP!" excuse



So... +3 rep added manually because system is not letting me :P

Making an instance that would be doable solo for all classes at the same difficulty level with the same level of rewards would probably be impossible. A hunter can't solo what a warden can, so unless they'd make class specific such instances, I don't really see how that would work, and tbh, I would prefer they put their resources into something that would be in my opinion more reasonable. There are plenty of challenges for solo playing (skirms, instances, PvMP, landscape), and you don't need 1st age weapons, golden necklaces and orthanc armour for that.

Hah, even despite various class issues...

I imagine/desire an instance that would require such upgrades - and not via stupid buffs to morale/dps of its mobs.

But... we do not have them. So as long as they are not here: let's get them first, complain about lack of gear later. Not to mention it will probably go exactly in this order , in RoI "missing cluster" style, anyway


Oh, and one more thing about different classes: just make it skirmish-style random. Sometimes a boss with "massive reduction of inc healing" debuff. Sometimes with "damage reflect debuff" Tier: "Ruingalad was a sissy". And if someone complains it is unfair to soloers, let's talk how raiding content is built with random "miss" feature and about the possible repercussions ^^

Ok, ok, let's have those instance - specific debuffs class - specific :P

Originally Posted by Ferthcott

Oh, and one more thing about different classes: just make it skirmish-style random. Sometimes a boss with "massive reduction of inc healing" debuff. Sometimes with "damage reflect debuff" Tier: "Ruingalad was a sissy". And if someone complains it is unfair to soloers, let's talk how raiding content is built with random "miss" feature and about the possible repercussions ^^

You just described skirmishes-- to a T. That's exactly what skirms are, btw: 1-man end-game instancing. Effort would be better spent asking for the skirms to be rewarded more intelligently, because I think we ALL can agree that the reward structure is uneven and largely worthless for most playstyles.

Uh yeah, how awesome is that we already have this?:P

I won't whine about it but let me ask you this:

What is the reason why you as a solo player needs the best end-game gear/items? The way that the gear in this game is created is to work in favor of the instances where you acquired said gear. For example. As a solo player you can do all the solo quests you'd like. You acquire some nice rewards and reputation items and these should more then suffice for completing solo activites. If you are an avid grouper then you will acquire other sets of armour (Purple, Teal) which will make you work in these 3 or 6 player instances easy. For raiders it goes one step further. They start low and gear up. Quest reward to get them through 3 player content, 3 player to 6, 6 to raid, etc., etc. This has how its always been. If you were to acquire end-game raid gear (full teal armor set, first age LIs, jewelry, etc.) and go do your solo questing or skirmishes then it would make this content quite trivial. So why is it that you want these items as a solo player?

Originally Posted by Erlessa

Making an instance that would be doable solo for all classes at the same difficulty level with the same level of rewards would probably be impossible. A hunter can't solo what a warden can, so unless they'd make class specific such instances, I don't really see how that would work, and tbh, I would prefer they put their resources into something that would be in my opinion more reasonable. There are plenty of challenges for solo playing (skirms, instances, PvMP, landscape), and you don't need 1st age weapons, golden necklaces and orthanc armour for that.

+rep

This is the issue at hand. Classes in LotRO are balanced by their utility in group settings. As a result, some classes are capable of doing amazing things solo. Wardens and champs can solo stuff that a hunter could never do, based purely on class mechanics. It would be impossible to make solo content that's balanced for all classes.

Plus, honestly, coordinating with eleven other players and dealing with mechanics like aggro that simply don't exist solo means that group content *always* is going to have another layer of challenge that I think deserves extra rewards should a group of players be able to complete it.

Shoot me for it but i'd say bring back radiance and remove the option of bartering seals meds and marks for gear.
Bring back the armour coins, lesser coins t1 best on t2. Kinda like OD had.

I liked radiance very much as it did gave you a way to be at the best you can and you needed to get things done for the best gear. Like in bg. People probably call me negative or crazy but this way kinships are pushed a little more to wear stuff. Not do t1 raid to unlock all pieces and then farm foundry 1000 times to get the set, thats not what raiding is meant to be imo

Radiance was terrible because you were basically stuck wearing whatever armor gave you the most radiance regardless of stats simply because counteracting the dread was more of a combat boost than whatever stats or set bonuses that you could possibly get from any other piece of armor.

Originally Posted by Chewie-nl

I liked radiance very much as it did gave you a way to be at the best you can and you needed to get things done for the best gear. Like in bg. People probably call me negative or crazy but this way kinships are pushed a little more to wear stuff. Not do t1 raid to unlock all pieces and then farm foundry 1000 times to get the set, thats not what raiding is meant to be imo

To indulge that tangent a bit: I agree. I spent many, many words on the topic here and on subsequent posts:
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...36#post5191236
...quite a bit of which is looking pretty prophetic now.

Originally Posted by Elrendos

So why is it that you want these items as a solo player?

Envy.

Adjusting rewards so everyone can work toward something that they feel is meaningful is always a good idea, but there's no getting around one simple fact: players that participate in multiple (or all) the activities that the game has to offer will always have more opportunities to be rewarded than players that only participate in one or two activities.

PvPers are soloists too.
Raiders are soloists too.
Same with crafting, participating in holiday activities, hobbies, ect.

Inevitably, some players will always have more than others, just by playing. No amount of effort toward "making it fair" will change that. To think otherwise is unrealistic.

Take the PvP sets for example. I don't pvp in this game. I have no interest in pvping in this game, despite doing it well and frequently in other games. The current "best set" for some of my characters only comes from the Moors. Make no bones about it, I R Jelly. Still though, I don't expect to get the set without, y'know, going to PvP... if I cared enough, that's EXACTLY what I would do. The set means very little in the grand scheme of things though, so I'm fine with doing without.

In the abstract, it would be kinda novel to have every item be accessible to every playstyle, with it being significantly easier to get it through the intended playstyle, but let's be real here: Turbine isn't very good at getting EXISTING itemization and delivery systems to be satisfactory, and creating a system where every playstyle could get everything would be a MAJOR overhaul on their part -- and people would still complain about some aspect of it.

All of that aside, they seem to be moving in the direction of accessibility with marks and such.

Originally Posted by Chewie-nl

Shoot me for it but i'd say bring back radiance and remove the option of bartering seals meds and marks for gear.
Bring back the armour coins, lesser coins t1 best on t2. Kinda like OD had.

I liked radiance very much as it did gave you a way to be at the best you can and you needed to get things done for the best gear. Like in bg. People probably call me negative or crazy but this way kinships are pushed a little more to wear stuff. Not do t1 raid to unlock all pieces and then farm foundry 1000 times to get the set, thats not what raiding is meant to be imo

Chewie, I don't know how you could like that radiance thing. It was so lame IMHO.

And not everyone has the time available to adhere to a strict raiding schedule. You are still free to do your 12 man raids every week over and over if you like.

All this change did was open up endgame gear to a broader audience, and there is nothing bad about that, and it really doesn't impact you negatively in any way.

I agree 100% with the OP and as I am in a similar situation it would be a wonderful addition to the game.


I've stopped bringing the subject up because, like in this thread, what normally happens is you explain your situation, describe in detail a solution to the situation, and then a bunch of people not in your situation come in and basically call you a liar. They don't have a clue what situation you're describing, and I guess all that time players like ourselves have spent trying to find a group and raids didn't happen in their little world. So, while agree with your position, I seriously doubt you'll get anywhere in this forum trying to advance your agenda. The 10 people before you didn't. People who have the opportunity to group get to have toys but get their dander up when people who can't group as much would like toys too.

It's like someone living in a big city having a specialty store nearby that is convenient and close by. They have the opportunity to go to the store every weekend and thus have all the cool toys. But, suddenly the store starts offering online sales so that people who live in the small town 2 hours away can get the same cool toys without having to drive into town. Their situation and work means they can't go to the store as often, and they just can't spend 4 hours on a car ride for various reason. So the store offers the toys online but out of town shipments take 5 - 10 business days to arrive and are more expensive, so the guy who lives in town still has a better deal. The guy in town doesn't care, he just rants about how someone else can get the same toys without going through the effort of walking into the store! How dare they offer a different, but slower and more expensive way to acquire toys!? Everyone should have to acquire them the same way and if your real life doesn't allow you to do so, then the store shouldn't change, you should change your real life!

You and I are the people who live in the small town. We simply want to enjoy the toys and are willing to take a more expensive and time consuming way to get them because in the end, at least we can get them. The people who oppose this are the people who live in the city who get mad that the store offers an online option.