Thread: Instance Finder needs to be across servers

Often times when attempting to use this tool it can take hours to get a group. And that's not an exageration... and that's IF I get a group at all. It's basically worthless most of the time - and I'm ususally better off just putting a group together through chat.

So deffinitely time they expanded the Instance Finder across servers so it becomes more effective and actually worth using.

The whole point of a Group-Finding tool is to make the process quick and convienent anyways... at the expense of giving up player-control over who they group with. But if forming groups through the chat channels is actually faster, without the player giving up the opportunity to pick and choose who he/she groups with - then why even bother using it?

So basically 90% of the time the only thing it's good for is increasing your currency rewards AFTER putting a group together through existing chat channels.

Devs, please fix this. I'm asking nicely

YOu can't do anything across servers, notice how you can't mail or tell or have the same characters. Servers don't mix ever!

thats physically impossible. the server worlds are sperate physical entities which are not connected

Originally Posted by Tolza

thats physically impossible. the server worlds are sperate physical entities which are not connected

So how come other games can do it?

Are the servers on this game just built differently than them or something?

Agree, across servers would be awesome. And yes it works well with other games. But turbine needs to fix the makeup of the group first. Seems when I do get a group using this finder, we are missing a tank or healer .... I do like it and would use it more often if fixed

Originally Posted by Hoolygen

Agree, across servers would be awesome. And yes it works well with other games. But turbine needs to fix the makeup of the group first. Seems when I do get a group using this finder, we are missing a tank or healer .... I do like it and would use it more often if fixed

Yes, this same thing happens to me too. It's not unusual for my tank to be a loremaster or a hunter lol

Originally Posted by Jeremi

So how come other games can do it?

Are the servers on this game just built differently than them or something?

The servers probably are not, but the software probably is.

Originally Posted by mjk47

The servers probably are not, but the software probably is.

Well I wish they would invest in some new software upgrades or something then. A thriving instance finder would really liven this game up a bit.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

So how come other games can do it?

Are the servers on this game just built differently than them or something?

It is Lotro game software issue. Turbine would have to design the functionality into the game. It is something Turbine is considering. Turbine said that it is unlikely they could make it so.

Unfortunately, Instance Finder will not do what you are looking for. It is not a group finder. It is an Instance Finder. The design objective is to get us to let the server pick the Instance we are going to run for us. The hook for using Instance Finder is the reward bonus we get when Instance Finder selects the Instance.

If Turbine really wanted a group finder, I would allowed to pick my Instance. Queue up for team members. The more members that Instance Finder selected for me. The higher the reward bonus for our group.

The current design rewards the Bunny for forming a group first. Invoke Instance Finder to pick an Instance at random.

Originally Posted by Hoolygen

Agree, across servers would be awesome. And yes it works well with other games. But turbine needs to fix the makeup of the group first. Seems when I do get a group using this finder, we are missing a tank or healer .... I do like it and would use it more often if fixed

There are two issues here:

1) What role mix Turbine allows for the instance?

2) What role Turbine allows a Class member to queue up for?

There are some instances where Turbine does not require a Tank and Healer. Turbine only requires a Tank or a Healer but not both. If you want to do many of the three person instances with a Tank and a Healer you have to enter the queue with a two person group that has (for example) a Minstrel and Guardian. It is the 6 person and larger instances that require a Healer and a Tank.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

It is Lotro game software issue. Turbine would have to design the functionality into the game. It is something Turbine is considering. Turbine said that it is unlikely they could make it so.

Unfortunately, Instance Finder will not do what you are looking for. It is not a group finder. It is an Instance Finder. The design objective is to get us to let the server pick the Instance we are going to run for us. The hook for using Instance Finder is the reward bonus we get when Instance Finder selects the Instance.

If Turbine really wanted a group finder, I would allowed to pick my Instance. Queue up for team members. The more members that Instance Finder selected for me. The higher the reward bonus for our group.

The current design rewards the Bunny for forming a group first. Invoke Instance Finder to pick an Instance at random.

Well if that's the case Yula I think they made a mistake. Players could already pick which instance they wanted to do by simply going to it. The real problem has always been getting the group together to do the instance in the first place. So that's deffinitely where they should have concentrated their goals if you ask me.

Cross-server LFG tools that make finding groups for instances relatively quick and painless should be the new norm for any MMORPG these days - and is the number 1 reason WoW has been such a success. That game is relatively horrible, but it had such an excellent Group Finding system players were able to queue up and play together with friends basically when ever they wanted to - and that should be at the core of any MMORPG.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

So how come other games can do it?

Are the servers on this game just built differently than them or something?

Um, thats pretty obvious seeing that different games run on different software (there are some third party engines out there though that offer the same groundwork to all games built upon them). Turbines is proprietary for all we know.

Apparently, someone somewhere made the decision to keep servers and the characters on them as 100% separate entities which leads us for example to the situation where a character transfer costs $30 and takes up to two weeks time, and you cannot transfer back, when other games (of course not all) do this at the click of a button and its finished in 10 minutes. Or, you have to close the game completely to access your toons on other servers, adding 2-5 minutes to every server switch - other games let you do that ingame. Cross-server grouping and the technicall difficulties of it may stand on an entirely different level though.

Anyway, the whole instance finder thing seems a classic example of a solution in search of a problem. Considering it needed testing and tweaking for several months in the open plus being in on-and-off development since September 2010, it just seems a huge waste of resources compared to what it can do. It DISCOURAGES random grouping because of the lack of choice of instance (most constellation of classes can do a sch/lib; try the same with a Dargnakh and be prepared to fail unless people are really good); while at the same time it discourages players to go for random instances because nothing beats the Isen instances even without any IF buffs in time/rewards ratio.

If the problem was that not enough variety of instances is run -
* a low-work solution is to scale the rewards of the unpopular runs upwards. Or maybe offer proper guides for these, easily accessible ingame, and not some ridiculous piece of a sales advertisement like the infamous Draigoch guide.
* a high-work solution would be for example a dynamically changing rewards scheme, where the low-run instance of the day gets a buff. In my place there are bars that sometimes run "Beer stock exchange". They offer like 10 or more beers and drinks and the price goes up and down depending on demand. If you order the right drink at the right time, you can earn a sizable discount... or pay more if you dont.

If the problem was that players are not finding groups -
* a low work solution would be to finally, after 5 years, introduce proper global channels. New players and those that are never pointed towards global/glff by other players may never even know how much there is going on.
* a high work solution but still below the instance finder would be a billboard, the "Adventurers blackboard", where people can put themselves and the instances they´re willing to do. If someone wants to start a group, they just filter the billboard for characters of the right level and "instance willingness".

The current implementation curiously only has ONE thinkable raison d'être, and that would be IF there is some cross-server grouping in the future. What the real plan with this thing is? No idea. We only know that there have been THREE developer diaries published on it and none of it answers the simple question: Why?

Originally Posted by Vandervahn

Um, thats pretty obvious seeing that different games run on different software (there are some third party engines out there though that offer the same groundwork to all games built upon them). Turbines is proprietary for all we know.

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Um, well it wasn't "pretty obvious" to me. I don't work at turbine. How in the heck would I know what kind of specefic software their game uses? lol

Either way, it's time they got into this century, upgraded their software, and got a robust and efficient Group Finding mechanism going so players can easily and convientently put groups together. The challenge of a MMORPG should be the teamwork itself - not having to spend hours searching chat channels for an elusive tank or healer... or sitting all day in some "Instance Finder" hoping the sky will fall and a group will materialize.

I completely agree with the OP, the "Wait to Play" phenomenon is not fun.

It's one thing to say how they originally planned the IF to be, but to use it to justify not upgrading it isn't a reason, it's an excuse.

The current state of the IF tool is total fail. Reasons could be many and we don't want to step on toes but seeing Blizzard can do it quite successfully with WOW (they are now using it for raids also) there should be no reason Turbine can't. Warner Brothers has just as much finances as Blizzard does I'm sure. There are two options that remain:

1. make the IF tool fully functional for cross-server action because there are people who would actually like/enjoy to use it

2. just remove it once and for all and bring the never ending qq about it to a halt

Personally I'd like to see cross-server IF, it tests and improves your skills running with different toons instead of the same ole toons running the same ole way that you usually group with. I hope we're not that anti-social of a group, as a whole, that we just can't bear to do anything with anyone new, or are we?

I don't want to see cross-server IF. I think it discourages community building on your own server and prevents you from being able to establish relationships with other players.

I think the real issue is with glff. Make it enabled by default and have a second channel for global OOC that would be a place for the children/man-children/trolls to chit chat and would leave a viable global LFF channel. I know so many people who either don't really know about or use GLFF or who avoid it because of the tiny minority of ne'er-do-wells that hang out there.

Originally Posted by Gylve

I don't want to see cross-server IF. I think it discourages community building on your own server and prevents you from being able to establish relationships with other players.

I think the real issue is with glff. Make it enabled by default and have a second channel for global OOC that would be a place for the children/man-children/trolls to chit chat and would leave a viable global LFF channel. I know so many people who either don't really know about or use GLFF or who avoid it because of the tiny minority of ne'er-do-wells that hang out there.

Well I disagree Gylve. I've never bought into this whole "making it easier to form groups harms the community" argument. All poor group-finding tools do is cause a lot of bored annoyed people to log out in frustration, and that's not good. There is just really nothing fun about having to advertise on chat channels for x amount of time trying to find this or that, rather it's global/regional/ or what ever else IMHO. And besides, people are still free to group up with online friends to do things together if they wish. A cross-server LFG tool would in no way prevent that from happening.

Not all of us have the time (or patience for that matter) to spam chat channels. Besides, if I want to "establish relationships" I'll go to a dating site or call up a friend and go fishing or something. I play MMORPGs to group up and kill stuff with other players - and making that happen as fast and easily as possible is the way to go. If some friends are online I can group up with great. But I don't like being limited to only being able to do things when that's the case.

Also I would add that spamming chat channels trying to find certain video game classes simply is not some great social experience. It's just not. Being able to queue up into an effective group-finding tool (by yourself or with some friends) is much better if you ask me.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Cross Server IF will not help at all. The issue is that most people are not interested in the instances IF has to offer. The most played instances are GB. GA, Moria, Skirm Raids, and ROI Of these GA, Moria, and Skirm Raids are not compatible with IF. GB is only at low levels and not played a whole lot. This leaves the ROI instances. These can quickly be found using glff, so most people just use that.

If you are relying on IF for instances you will be disappointed.

Originally Posted by LoyKashka

Cross Server IF will not help at all. The issue is that most people are not interested in the instances IF has to offer. The most played instances are GB. GA, Moria, Skirm Raids, and ROI Of these GA, Moria, and Skirm Raids are not compatible with IF. GB is only at low levels and not played a whole lot. This leaves the ROI instances. These can quickly be found using glff, so most people just use that.

If you are relying on IF for instances you will be disappointed.

Not true. It does help, and would help. I've seen what a difference cross-server LFG tools make on games, and it's very significant.

And using the glff to find groups is deffinitely not always "quick". Maybe on your server, but I can promise you on mine it's not, and sometimes it's next to impossible.

The IF is useless for low populated servers like Windfola. I can sit in the IF all day long and evening and not get a bite on a group at all.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Well I disagree Gylve. I've never bought into this whole "making it easier to form groups harms the community" argument. All poor group-finding tools do is cause a lot of bored annoyed people to log out in frustration, and that's not good. There is just really nothing fun about having to advertise on chat channels for x amount of time trying to find this or that, rather it's global/regional/ or what ever else IMHO. And besides, people are still free to group up with online friends to do things together if they wish. A cross-server LFG tool would in no way prevent that from happening.

Not all of us have the time (or patience for that matter) to spam chat channels. Besides, if I want to "establish relationships" I'll go to a dating site or call up a friend and go fishing or something. I play MMORPGs to group up and kill stuff with other players - and making that happen as fast and easily as possible is the way to go. If some friends are online I can group up with great. But I don't like being limited to only being able to do things when that's the case.

Also I would add that spamming chat channels trying to find certain video game classes simply is not some great social experience. It's just not. Being able to queue up into an effective group-finding tool (by yourself or with some friends) is much better if you ask me.

It sounds to me like you "don't buy into the argument" because you don't really have any interest in the social aspect of the game. That's fine, but I think the number of people who *do* have an interest in the social aspect of the game probably outweigh those who don't.

In case it wasn't clear, I wasn't talking about romantic relationships - I just mean meaningful interaction with other players. Sure, cross-server IF might be faster, but you'll never see those people again (probably...but you won't have any control over when or if you do). Faster grouping PLUS extra currency rewards means a ton of people on any given server are going to get their group content fix via this tool, which is going to make doing it the old fashioned way for those of us who like to interact with people more than once much more difficult.

I don't know what made you think that spamming chat channels is something I think is socially valuable; it's not. Grouping up with people you know and developing relationships with them (becoming friends, having a laugh, establishing groups of players you don't like/won't group with for whatever reason), however, *is* valuable. At least, it is to me and probably is to most people who play this game.

I know cross-server certainly did a lot of damage to the social aspect of PvP in WoW back when it was introduced. It went from a socially enjoyable activity to simply another grind for honor. No thanks.

Originally Posted by Gylve

It sounds to me like you "don't buy into the argument" because you don't really have any interest in the social aspect of the game. That's fine, but I think the number of people who *do* have an interest in the social aspect of the game probably outweigh those who don't.

.

No Gylve, I'm very "social" on MMOs. But it's with friends and fellow kinsman. It's not on the LFF channels.

As I said in a previous post, having to advertise like a commercial over and over on chat channels just isn't what I would consider a valuable form of social interaction, and it's deffinitely not how I would go about "establishing relationships". Something you seem to agree with... so I'm kind of confused now what we are arguing about. In fact I would go so far as to say it brings utterly nothing of value to the game what so ever except annoying spam - and it would make far more sense to me for friends or kinsmen to simply be able queue up together in an effective cross-server group-finding tool to do instances together when not enough of their friends are online to do one without it.

I had plenty of friends on WoW. I had a guild. I socialized almost constantly - and the presence of a cross-server LFG tool didn't stop me from doing it in anyway. All it did was let me do instances with friends when not enough people in my guild were on or interested. And that's a GOOD thing in my humble opinion.

Originally Posted by Zerric

The IF is useless for low populated servers like Windfola. I can sit in the IF all day long and evening and not get a bite on a group at all.

I know how you feel Zerric. I'm on Nimrodel, and it can take all day (if I"m lucky) to get one hit on it. It's just almost worthless as group-forming tool on my server... and it's only useful benefit is increasing currency rewards AFTER a group has already been formed.

Where did your friends come from? People establish friendships and other relationships with one another in this game based on their experiences playing with them. Sure, if you're already in an established kinship and have an established group of friends, maybe you don't PUG and don't really make new relationships. But for new players, doing PUGs with people is how you get kin invites in the first place, how you find out who on your server is worth grouping with and who isn't, etc.

Originally Posted by Gylve

Where did your friends come from? People establish friendships and other relationships with one another in this game based on their experiences playing with them. Sure, if you're already in an established kinship and have an established group of friends, maybe you don't PUG and don't really make new relationships. But for new players, doing PUGs with people is how you get kin invites in the first place, how you find out who on your server is worth grouping with and who isn't, etc.

Ah ok, I see what you are driving out now.

I still disagree with you, but I do get what your point is.

I feel the presence of kinships and the whole questing aspect of the game is sufficient for players to interact with each other and build friendships. And besides, people who are looking for friends on the game are still more than welcome to look for server-only party members on the chat channels.

For a lot of us however, who already have kinships and friends and really just want to do a damned instance, the lack of a worthwhile LFG tool can be frustrating, especially on certain servers. And I think adding one would be a huge net-good, and the tiny bit of harm it might do to a player trying to make friends on the LFF channels pales by comparison if you ask me.

Well, I reckon we'll just have to disagree, then.

I'm sticking with my guns, though: simply activating GLFF (and a GlobalOOC for idle chit-chat) by default for all players would increase the available pool of people looking to do stuff by a huge amount. It would also free up a user chat channel, which would be nice. This solution is elegant and cheap and I can't see many people griping about it.

Originally Posted by Gylve

Well, I reckon we'll just have to disagree, then.

I'm sticking with my guns, though: simply activating GLFF (and a GlobalOOC for idle chit-chat) by default for all players would increase the available pool of people looking to do stuff by a huge amount. It would also free up a user chat channel, which would be nice. This solution is elegant and cheap and I can't see many people griping about it.

Fair enough. But I would be one of the ones griping about it

When I play an MMO I don't like being forced to advertise all the time. If I wanted to do that, I would have gone into advertising - and I hate being turned into a damn commercial while I'm trying to play a game lol

Should be just a bulletin board so people can sign up, next to the task board. Wait for hours and nothing with the IF

For the people asking for a bulletin board there is one already, it is on the social panel in the Fellowship tab, the one that the social panel normally opens first if you use the keyboard shortcut or the button that is at the bottom of the screen by default.

The fellowship tab even has the ability to make a group where they can find you instead of you finding them.