Thread: Surveying the battlefield before making a raid

Do most raid leaders on any server survey the battlefield before making a raid? I am curious. I am curious because I tend to find more want to raid up for like 5 creeps or freeps that are putting up a good fight, but is it really necissary? I end up feeling guilty when people ask me for raids but , I also don't want to change the schematics of the fighting even if we do die a few times with the group I'm running with.

Are raid leaders more about the I win button, or the good of the fight?

If there are a large number of the opposing side out and fighting (key word is fighting, not pveing), then I'd say a raid is good b/c it might encourage the other side to raid up. However, if the other side doesn't raid up, then disband the raid since you'll more than likely just be zerging.

IMO, raids are formed too easily against too few opponents b/c people just want to ez-mode farm points.

Also, as for you feeling guilty, maybe just tell them there is no need for a raid and encourage small groups.

I dont lead that often but do get requests and as there is not always need for raids on either sides at times, I just wonder what other raid leaders ideas are for this.

In Nimrodel!

Freeps always seem to raid (as seen by their buffs, etc). Supposetedly against the Warg Pack! which does and does not exist sometimes.

Other Creeps Almost NEVER raid it seems, it's mostly Solo BAs and unknown? Wargsss ... if I cared about getting
Inf/Comm anymore I wouldn't even play Defiler... And WL are almost non existent ATM.

Nice post Alzie. I wish more players did care. But I think we play in an era were points matter more than fun competitive gameplay.

Raids do NOT have to equal Zergs. But the often do.

Sad really.

And before anyone tries to make this a freep or creep issue I've seen ZERO evidence to make me think that his is anything but a player issue independent of side.

I basically wait till creeps are getting roflstomped before formally raiding up. Most of the time I log into TS, and if there isn't 12+ freeps out grouped up... I won't even log in. If we do end up roflstomping the freeps a couple times, it's a quick disband after that and encouraging small groups (ie, 4 or less) to take on the freeps.

Originally Posted by aklouie

I basically wait till creeps are getting roflstomped before formally raiding up. Most of the time I log into TS, and if there isn't 12+ freeps out grouped up... I won't even log in. If we do end up roflstomping the freeps a couple times, it's a quick disband after that and encouraging small groups (ie, 4 or less) to take on the freeps.

I wish more people would follow this example.



It really seems like most people only want to steamroll the opposition without any regard to prolonging PvP for an entire night. If a group is going to constantly roll over the other side without any deaths, why would the opposition stick around?

Well the really sad part is when the freeps have been stomping on the creeps for the past hour or two.. I form a quick group, beat them once.. and they log right on off. That's the other reason why I wait till it's pretty bad before I even bother coming out.

My 2c:

I think a quality that is evident in all great leaders is an awareness of the strengths and weaknesses of your opponent. Raiding when it is not needed is counterproductive to PvMP when Turbine provides no meaningful counter to being out numbered. Essentially doing this (raiding with no force to oppose you ) drives PvP away.

I know the solo zerg, mapping in\responding to call outs in /ooc, wiping your small group over and over is also very lame.

I know sometimes you can't control the number of peolpe who join you group\raid (or tag off it) when you open it up.

You can really only control your own actions. I would hope that if your intentions are honourable then the other side will see this when they reflect on your fights afterward. Obviously no one likes being beaten by a stronger force but being farmed is something else altogether. I will accept a group wipe for one good kill against a foe I deem to be worthy. On the flip side. I will not bother to make a group to fight those people whose actions have already proven them to be bad sports.

When I small group I stay mobile and I try to be unpredictable.

When I lead a raid (don't do it much these days) I always disband after flipping all the keeps. After all if the people online can't beat you in a keep what chance will they have open field?

Keeping your group together sometimes is silly, after all, if you know you have no chance to beat your opponent then why would you bother showing up to fight them?

If you must raid; go and flip every keep Red or Blue and then, if you have no organised opposition, disband. Doing anything else, no matter how good you say your intentions are, just looks bad from the other side’s perspective.

^^
Very well put post, and it would be a benefit for pvp if the regular raid leaders on both sides use that reasoning.

One thing that needs to be fixed is the flipping between sides. There's nothing more demoralizing when theres fighting between even raids, only to see numbers dwindle from your side and the other side instantly turns into 35+. That 35+ continues to grow that no matter what opposition your side mounts, it turns into a farm session leaving you parked at GV/Grams. Then, those same people change sides again to repeat the process going the other way, completing the cycle and wrecking what was once some decent pvp time. Lately, it's become a nightly routine.

Originally Posted by Thane9

And before anyone tries to make this a freep or creep issue I've seen ZERO evidence to make me think that his is anything but a player issue independent of side.

Indeed. Unfortunately, as some people have already shown in this thread, it's easier to make a statement such as "freeps zerg then log off when they get killed once" than take off the freep/creep goggles and look at things from an unbiased perspective.

Originally Posted by ksjock

If you must raid; go and flip every keep Red or Blue and then, if you have no organised opposition, disband. Doing anything else, no matter how good you say your intentions are, just looks bad from the other side’s perspective.

Only problem with this is that if you have a raid flipping keeps and you easily wipe the opposition in the first 1 or 2, why would you bother to flip the rest other than pve? You already know that there isn't going to be any good opposition from the other side... This is called pve zerging.

Originally Posted by Tarenius

Indeed. Unfortunately, as some people have already shown in this thread, it's easier to make a statement such as "freeps zerg then log off when they get killed once" than take off the freep/creep goggles and look at things from an unbiased perspective.

You haven't played on Elendilmir then Seriously, you kill the afternoon US time crowd once.. and bang... hmm.. where'd the freeps go?

I also will do a TS check before logging in. if there is a small group running, I might make a small group and push to encourage the freeps to make their group larger or into a raid. But I will normally wait for the freeps to make a raid and push a bit before raiding up.

Alzie you can't make this post while you're leading a raid and going out of your way to kill solo creeps. It comes off as hypocritical.

On Firefoot, freeps will purposely NOT raid or even group when there are only a few creeps out.

However, our creeps seem to think that rolling 15+ deep with 2-3 WLs, 2-3 Defilers vs 3 solo freeps is good for the moors. Our creeps must really enjoy the PvE because they purposely try to make freeps log off.

To answer the question directly; Yes. I do, as well as my kin survey the battlefield before deciding whether to group or not. It's not uncommon for us to have 5-10 people in the moors all solo/duo/trio just because forming anything any larger would just be a zerg.

I don't generally group unless the situation calls for it, so, yeah.

Personally I do pay a lot of attention to the state of the PvP before starting a raid now.

Laurelin has traditionally been a raid server for PvP, but lately there are fewer leaders around on Creep side, many having left or abandoned PvP during the current hard period for Creeps.

Things I take into account are the numbers and types of Creep classes, and playstyles on the other side, and the relative strength or weakness of Freeps at that time.

Sometimes I would stick to fellowship groups, or form raids of maximum 12 or 18 members, or restrict membership to those in our PvP alliance.

If I find myself playing against a number of solo or small grouped high ranked creeps who use a lot of P2W pots, hiding in NPCs and general cowardly farming tactics to make infamy I will generally give them a few chances to fight, and then build a bigger group to go into the keeps and hunt them down if they continue with negative play styles, as I would see them.

The same goes with warg packs. I wont tolerate being GY camped, ganked and targeted by a warg pack or just a large number of wargs solo or in small groups, as may be the case. I will end up building larger fellowship and raid size groups to avoid this, which can be unfortunate for other Creeps who may be giving good solo and small group fights, but this is one of the major problems with making a stealth class so powerful and attractive to FOTM players, compared to other Creep classes.

I play a Hunter so solo is not a particularly viable option for me, especially having lead raids for several years, I tend to be quite high up the target list and often die fast if I am solo or in a small fellow in typical bridge farm type situations.

I have no problems however when fighting against gutsy Creep groups who have a PvP mentality, as opposed to an EZ mode farming mentality, with taking lots of risks, restricting numbers and fighting in enemy keeps at a disadvantage to try to balance out fights with Creeps being generally weaker, especially at lower ranks.

If you end up flipping the map blue, and I will often leave Lug Red to encourage Creeps to come back faster, I will generally disband the raid and either log off, go to PvE land or wait in a solo or small group to defend against Creeps when they get themselves together again.

Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk

I don't generally group unless the situation calls for it, so, yeah.

You are so brave staying solo as a minstrel.

actually, I have let solo creeps go ask last nights raid and also if you chose a different location to gank, people wouldn't be apt to roll over you.