Thread: Tower of Orthanc Feedback

Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

Regarding a T3 level for the truly uber, I really like the idea, but having any kind of new gear or trophies with it is going to be trouble and not really clean up the issues. I do suggest they'd do a T3, but I'd recommend T3 be about saving time. Maybe in T3 the bosses are insane, but there's no trash, maybe in T3 you only have saruman in the 5th phase; something like that. I think a time savings would be attractive enough to nudge players toward T3 without having to provide any reward and then add a third chest: not new stuff, just more stuff in the third chest - more trophies, 1st age symbols, teals items, clasps, etc.

If T1 is about armor, and T2 is about ancillary gear and 1st agers, T3 would be about farming the gear out of it after successfully doing T1 & T2.

I too agree that regardless of teir, they should go back to one barter item per armor piece. In T1 one item per boss, T2, two items, T3 three items.

Regarding the quality/fun of the overall raid, if the Rift were 10/10, I'd give this one about a 4. On T1 its too easy, on T2 its too uneven with some real stupid mechanics - the running and jumping in Acid, the fact that you can basically just ignore the electrified plate in Lightning and the ambiguousness of rage in F&F being stand outs.

My general feelings about this raid pretty much match the OP's, so all I have to add at this point is a question - what is ambiguous about the rage in F&F (other than the 2nd mechanic to tier down rage that Professional Awesome discovered for us all, perhaps)?

I don't get it. Why on earth would you want to go back to a barter system for armor? It'd make t2 take ages longer to get ready for. Bartering was workable (though I find it inherently elitist/lame) before, but are you really comfortable with doing t2 orthanc raids in draigoch gear?
The reason OD was doable was because there already were 3 endgame sets out there; that situation will not recur, because level caps will be coming ever more quickly from now on. A situation where there are competing end-game raids will likely not recur for some time if ever.

Originally Posted by rannion

I don't get it. Why on earth would you want to go back to a barter system for armor? It'd make t2 take ages longer to get ready for. Bartering was workable (though I find it inherently elitist/lame) before, but are you really comfortable with doing t2 orthanc raids in draigoch gear?
The reason OD was doable was because there already were 3 endgame sets out there; that situation will not recur, because level caps will be coming ever more quickly from now on. A situation where there are competing end-game raids will likely not recur for some time if ever.

Not sure i fully agree with you -- I do agree that Orthanc's design encouraged a tier 1 clear to unlock gear which helped immensely in tier 2 tries -- however folks have done tier 2 kills with Draigoch gear on some classes and a good selection of crafted gear. There's also PvP gear now remember (though that's new since Orthanc's launch) -- so you do not technically have to do tier 1 Orthanc to do tier 2. It just helps to unlock the gear options.

OD on the other hand had tier 1 gear that was utterly useless - -though as you stated already there was a competing raid at the time that produced a set perfectly suited for beginning tier 2 OD runs. While Orthanc has greatly improved the medallion grind of OD I'm not so sure that returning to kill boss get a piece of gear would make the process actually take longer. The medallion grind does accomplish forcing players to run the 3 man and 6 man content which makes these instances less enjoyable to run for many. During the days of SoA 6 man content just simply dropped standalone excellent loot. How many time did you we run old BG for the hunter bow? Or that captains arm? How about running Carn Dum for the teal drops? We didn't need some arbitrary system entrenched in grind to force us to run content -- but that is the way it is now.

Bartering elitist? Far from it! -- It was actually very inclusive -- far more players had Rift gear than any other raid. There's been a gradual decline in completed raid sets since Rift. A good chunk of that is the grind factor -- though again I do concede that Orthanc balanced the issue much better than OD did.

For those reading this thread -- how many had multiple toons with Rift gear? DN gear? BG gear? OD gear? and now Orthanc gear?

Me personally I had 1 full rift set, and 1 mostly full rift set
I had 3 full Watcher sets.
I had a full DN set and a partially full DN set.
I had 1 full BG set and 1 partial set.
I had a 4/6 OD set on one toon.
I have 1 5/6 dragon set (not getting the 6th intentionally) and 1 4/6 dragon set.
I've opted to split sets in Orthanc but I do have 6 pieces of gear from 2 different sets. Only one toon thus far has any pieces from Orthanc -- though I"m close to it on a 2nd.

The thrill of having good gear actually drop at the time of killing a boss is what kept a lot of raiders raiding for many years. I would like to see a hybrid system where you can barter in seals or whatever they want to call them but at the same time have a token or two drop from each boss kill that you turn in for an actual piece of gear - just like it was during Rift. Remember Rift is the only raid I can think of that allowed many many players to gear out an army of alts without being in a hardcore raiding kin. This barter grind system with seals and whatnot is hardly producing an widespread geared out raiding population.

The current tier1/tier2 system is far more elitist. Tier 2 requires a lot of co-ordination and consequently forcing players to be more selective with whom they'll bring on raids. Forget about the evils of DKP -- if you can't do the fight you won't be invited back. That's the way it is now --leaders are forced to examine the team and note liabilities asking the question -- "can I really bring *x* with those traits, that gear, and plus they really don't seem to have a very good grasp of the content. They don't have spatial awareness, they don't react well to *misses* and *bad luck*, etc". This required higher co-ordination requires a stronger and more capable team thus forcing the absolute definition of elitism.

Going forward Turbine has to ask themselves while they create an expensive piece of content like a raid -- how many players do they want to see complete it? A select few per server? -- only the most talented? the most elite? the lucky enough to be in an elite raiding group? or do they want to return to Rift where countless kinships and groups farmed a really well designed raid that was a lot of fun and not an excessive grind requiring the perfect LI, two hundred trillion seals or medallions (yes an exageration), etc etc.

You know there was a time when you could hit 50, craft a decent set of gear, then hit Rift, the moors, Helegrod, CD -- enjoy the end game instance content without all of this grind. So no -- I don't agree, that the current system of itemization is an improvement or less elitist. I believe the current system of itemization is more elitist and less inclusive than ever. I just fail to see how all of this grind they've put in the game has encouraged more activity at the end game -- it's had the opposite effect, and hopefully they can soon begin to recognize this.

Originally Posted by musicman2000

So no -- I don't agree, that the current system of itemization is an improvement or less elitist. I believe the current system of itemization is more elitist and less inclusive than ever. I just fail to see how all of this grind they've put in the game has encouraged more activity at the end game -- it's had the opposite effect, and hopefully they can soon begin to recognize this.

It probably depends on the kind of people you play with, but from my point of view it sure looks like the new way of doing things is encouraging a lot more people to participate in end-game raids (and equip their characters with end-game raid armour) than it did before.

I know a lot of people (myself included) who didn't really bother raiding during OD and earlier raids because if you weren't already part of a raid group that was doing end-game raids regularly and did show up for said raid(s) several nights each week you essentially had next to no chance to ever get even half an armour set.

The very same people (again myself included) now have tried Orthanc because there is a decent chance to get your armour "reward" even for casual raiders that don't have the time to do the whole raid each week, and most of us have ended up sticking with it and doing one (or even two) raid nights a week now because it is actually possible now to do so just for the fun of playing together while everybody gets their reward (again, the armour) without people fighting over who has the right to win which armour coin and such.

From my point of view Orthanc has succeeded in bringing a lot of people into raiding that the previous raids failed to pull in, and even people who thought of themselves too casual to try OD back at 65 now attempt to do Orthanc at T2, not as quickly as those who have always been "serious" raiders, but eventually sucessful, which (to me) is all that matters.

^^ http://forums.lotro.com/profile.php?do=ignorelist

moving on:

Originally Posted by musicman2000

...While Orthanc has greatly improved the medallion grind of OD I'm not so sure that returning to kill boss get a piece of gear would make the process actually take longer. The medallion grind does accomplish forcing players to run the 3 man and 6 man content which makes these instances less enjoyable to run for many.

I saw this said often. It is not factual.
It is verifyably faster and easier on average to get your Orthanc set running JUST the raid than it was to get armor from the older raids through barter tokens. There is no force at all to run the 3/6 mans because that will only speed up a process that already is faster (and a far more reliable method of acquisition, btw). All perceived force here is user-induced.

During the days of SoA 6 man content just simply dropped standalone excellent loot. How many time did you we run old BG for the hunter bow? Or that captains arm? How about running Carn Dum for the teal drops? We didn't need some arbitrary system entrenched in grind to force us to run content -- but that is the way it is now.

How is this different from people running Pits for Axe and Sarchol, Dargnakh and Foundry for the necklace, Fangorns edge for Vallaram, Roots of Fangorn for the bracelets? Not to speak of the Skirmish loot divided into campaigns?

Bartering elitist? Far from it! -- It was actually very inclusive -- far more players had Rift gear than any other raid. There's been a gradual decline in completed raid sets since Rift. A good chunk of that is the grind factor -- though again I do concede that Orthanc balanced the issue much better than OD did.
[...]
The thrill of having good gear actually drop at the time of killing a boss is what kept a lot of raiders raiding for many years. ...

Imho the ONLY reason people were not running in raid sets is the difficulty of the content to gain that set. That being said, ALL the people I know which are capable of the not too extraordinary performance necessary to complete Orthanc wings... are already running with a good chunk of the armor by now. The only stepping stone for many, puggers in particular, is completing Saruman.

Lastly, we are only talking about 6 armor pieces here... every character has 12 more item slots to fill with interesting gear. The stupid loot in orthanc is a bummer there, but is hardly connected to the issue of bartering for armors.

This barter grind system with seals and whatnot is hardly producing an widespread geared out raiding population.

Of course it does. Because you can now earn the marks for Character A while playing character B. You can get the Draigoch set right away, and only need to do the Orthanc once on A to unlock the sets.

In short, the whole grind thing is vastly overstated, or suffers from skewed perception. The issue here is that Turbine offers increased methods to acquire nice things which are disassociated from running a specific content (barter armors, barter jewelry, barter necklace, skirmish camp barter options). Curiously, the usual reaction with all these shinies is not.. "Great, I get to pick and choose!" It is "12..43...104... damn, I need to do soo much things to get this all!" (not asking themselves if they seriously need to get all of this, and if it has to be in a short timeframe).

Or take empowerment scrolls. They are verifyably easier to get than before RoI. And still people speak of an increased grind. What is wrong there? The reputation vendor of Theodreds Riders offers these bracelets that have the exact same quality as skirmish raid loot. Yet people ignore them even when they can complement their build for just a small amount of money. Why?

The only thing that requires more grind than before is unlocking two more virtue levels if necessary.

Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

Regarding a T3 level for the truly uber, I really like the idea, but having any kind of new gear or trophies with it is going to be trouble and not really clean up the issues. I do suggest they'd do a T3, but I'd recommend T3 be about saving time. Maybe in T3 the bosses are insane, but there's no trash, maybe in T3 you only have saruman in the 5th phase; something like that. I think a time savings would be attractive enough to nudge players toward T3 without having to provide any reward and then add a third chest: not new stuff, just more stuff in the third chest - more trophies, 1st age symbols, teals items, clasps, etc.

If T1 is about armor, and T2 is about ancillary gear and 1st agers, T3 would be about farming the gear out of it after successfully doing T1 & T2.

I too agree that regardless of teir, they should go back to one barter item per armor piece. In T1 one item per boss, T2, two items, T3 three items.

Regarding the quality/fun of the overall raid, if the Rift were 10/10, I'd give this one about a 4. On T1 its too easy, on T2 its too uneven with some real stupid mechanics - the running and jumping in Acid, the fact that you can basically just ignore the electrified plate in Lightning and the ambiguousness of rage in F&F being stand outs.

Well, in my experience adding a T3 would be a mistake. Here's why. If you put in a T3, no one will run T2. The people that run T2 Orthanc today will only be interested in running content at its hardest level and in getting the best rewards. People that run T1 will probably continue to run T1. No one will run T2, and making it will be a waste of developer resources. "Hardcore" raiders are about completing the hardest challenges - and most of the groups that are currently completing T2 Orthanc regularly are pretty "hardcore" from my experience. If you give them a way to skip trash, or tedious phases of boss fights, they will take it. If you give them a new level in the raid that they can brag about beating, they will run that level and that level only (I say this not to be negative - I am one of those people myself).

I like the idea in theory, just don't think it will be worth it from Turbine's resource management perspective.

t2 orthanc a bit too hard for most and the loot blows /signed

Originally Posted by wakeandbacon

t2 orthanc a bit too hard for most and the loot blows /signed

T2 is supposed to be that way, and I'm not sure what loot you see in there, but I have plenty I want.

Originally Posted by Bramor

It probably depends on the kind of people you play with, but from my point of view it sure looks like the new way of doing things is encouraging a lot more people to participate in end-game raids (and equip their characters with end-game raid armour) than it did before.

I know a lot of people (myself included) who didn't really bother raiding during OD and earlier raids because if you weren't already part of a raid group that was doing end-game raids regularly and did show up for said raid(s) several nights each week you essentially had next to no chance to ever get even half an armour set.

The very same people (again myself included) now have tried Orthanc because there is a decent chance to get your armour "reward" even for casual raiders that don't have the time to do the whole raid each week, and most of us have ended up sticking with it and doing one (or even two) raid nights a week now because it is actually possible now to do so just for the fun of playing together while everybody gets their reward (again, the armour) without people fighting over who has the right to win which armour coin and such.

From my point of view Orthanc has succeeded in bringing a lot of people into raiding that the previous raids failed to pull in, and even people who thought of themselves too casual to try OD back at 65 now attempt to do Orthanc at T2, not as quickly as those who have always been "serious" raiders, but eventually sucessful, which (to me) is all that matters.

I guess it depends on the era in which you raided -- I whole heartedly agree with you in comparsion to OD, possibly BG. However, Rift, and DN were far more inclusive IMHO than Orthanc has been and more successful at getting folks to raid. There was a lot more kinships actively trying and completing the content so that's where I"m comparing to. I did state that Orthanc is a vast improvement on OD on the tier 1 level -- but I have also stated it decimated the raiding community. Two statements that seem to contradict so let me explain.

Tier 1 Orthanc -- including Saruman -- appears to be widely pugged at this point. A great thing for the entire game community IMHO. However, something seems to be lacking in terms of sustaining kinships. While PUGS are great, there does seem to be a decline in kinships actively conquering the content. For example only 3 or 4 kinships on Landroval are posting success in Tier 2 Orthanc and that's about half of what tier 2 OD brought. Tier 2 OD also cut in half the number of successful kinships from BG (again those who posted their results). I realize Tier 2 Lightning is also pugged and often successfully so I"m mainly focussing on other wings when I say that. Tier 2 Acid, F & F, and Shadow kills - not to mention Saruman -- are pretty darn rare. The point I"m trying to make is that it's far too rare -- the pendulum has shifted too far.

Originally Posted by Vandervahn

^^ http://forums.lotro.com/profile.php?do=ignorelist

moving on:

I saw this said often. It is not factual.
It is verifyably faster and easier on average to get your Orthanc set running JUST the raid than it was to get armor from the older raids through barter tokens. There is no force at all to run the 3/6 mans because that will only speed up a process that already is faster (and a far more reliable method of acquisition, btw). All perceived force here is user-induced.


We'll have to agree to disagree -- it would take a long mathematical debate to prove either side. However, I will state something I believe is factual. Perceived grind is killing the desire among many to pursue raiding the way it used to be pursued. There's no way Orthanc is run nearly as frequently as Rift was -- at least I just don't perceive it. Does anyone else remember the massive crowds formed in Rivendel for the Balrog Chain buff??

Also whether or not folks are *actually* forced to run 3/6 man content - many *perceive* that they are forced, and those folks are leaving for other games in massive hordes. The acquisition of an economy of marks simply isn't everyone's cup of tea and a hybrid system would be superior IMHO. Give the opportunity for a rare instant gratification again -- it's just not there. It's a mathematical commitment -- if every night I earn x number of seals I will get x piece of gear. *yawn* boring -- even if it's not too fast. Folks complained about the radiance grind during Mirkwood -- it was also super fast and easy (you could get enough radiance from scratch in half a week easily) -- but the perceived grind killed it for many folks too. Perception is far more powerful than reality.

How is this different from people running Pits for Axe and Sarchol, Dargnakh and Foundry for the necklace, Fangorns edge for Vallaram, Roots of Fangorn for the bracelets? Not to speak of the Skirmish loot divided into campaigns?

It's not -- not at all. I didn't say it didn't exist, it's just not nearly as common now. Again perception -- the focus has turned to the acquisition of a currency over items. That creates the perception of grind -- again for many people not necessarily all and I realize you can't please everyone.


Imho the ONLY reason people were not running in raid sets is the difficulty of the content to gain that set. That being said, ALL the people I know which are capable of the not too extraordinary performance necessary to complete Orthanc wings... are already running with a good chunk of the armor by now. The only stepping stone for many, puggers in particular, is completing Saruman.

Lastly, we are only talking about 6 armor pieces here... every character has 12 more item slots to fill with interesting gear. The stupid loot in orthanc is a bummer there, but is hardly connected to the issue of bartering for armors.

The focus always goes to the armour pieces I agree -- the worst grind is in the two LI slots. That's the one that makes me personally want to do anything but visit a relic/forge master when I log in. It's just not fun anymore -- that one aspect of the game.

As for the 6 armour pieces -- again I agree that Orthanc's system was a big step in the right direction in comparison to raids like OD and BG, especially OD. I'm just not sure I agree that in comparison to Rift or DN it's an improvement. I may just be getting all nostalgic but there was an energy in the days of running Rift and DN that just isn't there today. The rare drops in Rift on top of the barter pieces and loot beyond relics and ixp runes -- it was just more exciting to open a chest. It's not the time investment in the grind -- it's the fun factor in the journey. Opening a chest that actually could have something cool in it is far more exciting -- for me personally. Tier 1 Orthanc loot was exciting for the first 3 or 4 runs until you realized the options just weren't there. Yes the skirmish chests were exciting for a bit too.

Of course it does. Because you can now earn the marks for Character A while playing character B. You can get the Draigoch set right away, and only need to do the Orthanc once on A to unlock the sets.

In short, the whole grind thing is vastly overstated, or suffers from skewed perception. The issue here is that Turbine offers increased methods to acquire nice things which are disassociated from running a specific content (barter armors, barter jewelry, barter necklace, skirmish camp barter options). Curiously, the usual reaction with all these shinies is not.. "Great, I get to pick and choose!" It is "12..43...104... damn, I need to do soo much things to get this all!" (not asking themselves if they seriously need to get all of this, and if it has to be in a short timeframe).

Or take empowerment scrolls. They are verifyably easier to get than before RoI. And still people speak of an increased grind. What is wrong there? The reputation vendor of Theodreds Riders offers these bracelets that have the exact same quality as skirmish raid loot. Yet people ignore them even when they can complement their build for just a small amount of money. Why?

The only thing that requires more grind than before is unlocking two more virtue levels if necessary.

Honestly again whether or not the grind is in actuality more or not is irrelevant. How people perceive it is far more powerful -- games go in cycles and people go in cycles, but I would say the perception of grind is at one of it's worst points in LOTRO's history. Say people are wrong about the grind isn't going to get them to log back in. At some point you have to say the current system is less successful and less fun than a previous system -- can we go back? No, but looking at progression charts and how this raid is perceived by what appears to be a high percentage of people (even 20% can be high enough to impact future design) going forward I think it's worth looking at alternative ways of making itemization fun other than *load the chest with relics, runes, 2 or 3 teals that alternate, and then award them with barter currency*. I personally would love to see something more exciting than that.

Originally Posted by musicman2000

Originally Posted by Vandervahn

It is verifyably faster and easier on average to get your Orthanc set running JUST the raid than it was to get armor from the older raids through barter tokens

We'll have to agree to disagree -- it would take a long mathematical debate to prove either side. However, I will state something I believe is factual. Perceived grind is killing the desire among many to pursue raiding the way it used to be pursued. There's no way Orthanc is run nearly as frequently as Rift was -- at least I just don't perceive it. Does anyone else remember the massive crowds formed in Rivendel for the Balrog Chain buff??

Actually, there is no mathematical debate. I said "verifyably" for a reason

Lets take your generic T1 raid (the olden raids had only one tier anyway). It drops one coin per chest. With 12 people in the raid, thats a mathematical average of 12 weeks you need to run the raid for everyone to get their gear. But this system is vulnerable:
- Doesnt work AT ALL when pugging
- Gotta go to your mums birthday party? Add a week
- Your PC acting up? Add a week
- Turbine bungles an update/maintenance like yesterday? Add a week
- EURO 2012/Superbowl/<insert semi-important event> on raid day? Add a week
- etc.

Compare Orthanc:

Raid wing / armor piece	Drops per run / costs divided by 12	Drops in 12 runs / total costs	maximum runs per pieces
Saruman T1	43 seals - 272 medallions	516 seals - 3264 medallions
Boots and chestpiece	39 seals - 147 medallions	464 seals - 1764 medallions	10.7x Saruman
Shadow T1	25 seals - 137 medallions	300 seals - 1644 medallions
Leggings	17 seals - 66 medallions	203 seals - 786 medallions	8.1x shadow

On T2, rewards are multiplied accordingly. And that doesnt take into account the seals you get for first deed completion. It also doesnt take into account seals and medallions from other sources, including raid wings for which you already have bought the armor piece. Objectively, the only situation where this system is worse than before is when a raid team likes to gear out its "most important" people first.

I cant judge how often Orthanc is and Rift was run in your place - thats more or less a server-specific thing. I can only say that I´m likely on the smallest server with the lowest raiding population, and we still have several open ToOs going down per week.

Agree, it is obviously perceived grind. Turbine could have avoided some of the Flak by explaining it or simply presenting a stupid list like I did above. It would have been the logical thing to do in one of their many dev diaries, hence they didnt. It is sadly to be expected that people able to operate a year 2012 PC and nailing down something as complex as playing 12 disembodied characters through a MMO raid - cant take the 15 seconds to open up a calculator and do the math themselves. Instead, they perceive an increased grind and will defend their unfounded opinion to the death. Not speaking about you here, I mean the people that dismissively declare everything now a bigger grind against facts.

It just creates an additional negative vibe that we really dont need with the current state of our hobby.

Facts aside, it's also a matter of how different people work psychologically.

Example: I already have the off-hand axe and heavy armor shoulders from Pits T2. I just need the cloak. The thing is, there are only 4 teal drop possibilities from Pits T2. One is for champs, one is for guards/champs/cappies (odds are I'll be the only heavy armor on any given run), one is an agi earring the last is the cloak I want. The other thing is, the cloak has stats that make it attractive for pretty much *any* class. So, there's a 1 in 4 chance it'll even drop (I guess) and then I have a 1 in 3 chance of winning the roll if it does. If it *doesn't* drop, odds are good that something else will drop that I already have and that just won't be of any use to anyone else in the group.

So, that's the old, "non-grindy" way of getting what I need, and I honestly have trouble working up the courage to put a group together for it, considering the odds of getting what I want are so low and the odds of something dropping that's useless to everyone are quite high. In contrast, I can run something like Foundry over and over because 1) it's not as annoying as Pits and 2) the medallions and seals that I'll *always* get from running it are reward enough, even though none of the actual loot drops are valuable to me anymore. They are for other people, though, so I'm cool running it because it's a win-win all around.

In short, the tangible progress toward substantial gear upgrades makes repeating content totally worthwhile for me. If you're relying on the RNG, the only "progress" you make (and even then, only if you're in a static group) if you don't win a roll is that someone else in your group got a piece, so they won't roll on it next week.*

*On that last point, there's also this: past raids haven't had three full sets of gear for each class, either. Could you imagine how awful it'd be if you were in Orthanc rocking Draigoch/crafted gear and not only did you lose token rolls to people, you lose to them *AGAIN* because they need the same coin for a different armor set. And *AGAIN.*

Thank you, Vandervahn, for giving us some numbers.

I got tired enough of hearing the complaints about the grind in OD (which also weren't true) that I've mostly tuned out the same complaints about Orthanc, especially since it's even easier to get your armor in Orthanc than it was in OD.

Originally Posted by Gylve

In short, the tangible progress toward substantial gear upgrades makes repeating content totally worthwhile for me. If you're relying on the RNG, the only "progress" you make (and even then, only if you're in a static group) if you don't win a roll is that someone else in your group got a piece, so they won't roll on it next week.*

*On that last point, there's also this: past raids haven't had three full sets of gear for each class, either. Could you imagine how awful it'd be if you were in Orthanc rocking Draigoch/crafted gear and not only did you lose token rolls to people, you lose to them *AGAIN* because they need the same coin for a different armor set. And *AGAIN.*

Simple solution to the problem you bring up, that I really wish Turbine would implement: combine both systems. Drop an armor token per chest, but still give us seals/medallions/whatever to barter for the armor if we don't happen to win a token. That seems like it'd make everyone happy, with the worst consequence I can think of being that more armor tokens would rot sooner in organized kin runs, but who cares? Those tokens were eventually going to rot anyway.

As an added bonus, if the jewelry in a raid ends up being largely undesirable, at least we'll be able to get one or more pieces of armor from each successful boss clear.

Originally Posted by Lestache

Simple solution to the problem you bring up, that I really wish Turbine would implement: combine both systems. Drop an armor token per chest, but still give us seals/medallions/whatever to barter for the armor if we don't happen to win a token. That seems like it'd make everyone happy, with the worst consequence I can think of being that more armor tokens would rot sooner in organized kin runs, but who cares? Those tokens were eventually going to rot anyway.

As an added bonus, if the jewelry in a raid ends up being largely undesirable, at least we'll be able to get one or more pieces of armor from each successful boss clear.

Yep I totally agree -- make it a hybrid system. Best of both worlds. I'll go in to more detail below, but the chests in this game need a total overhaul to make them exciting again. This would be one place to start.

Originally Posted by Vandervahn

Actually, there is no mathematical debate. I said "verifyably" for a reason

Lets take your generic T1 raid (the olden raids had only one tier anyway). It drops one coin per chest. With 12 people in the raid, thats a mathematical average of 12 weeks you need to run the raid for everyone to get their gear. But this system is vulnerable:
- Doesnt work AT ALL when pugging
- Gotta go to your mums birthday party? Add a week
- Your PC acting up? Add a week
- Turbine bungles an update/maintenance like yesterday? Add a week
- EURO 2012/Superbowl/<insert semi-important event> on raid day? Add a week
- etc.

Compare Orthanc:

Raid wing / armor piece	Drops per run / costs divided by 12	Drops in 12 runs / total costs	maximum runs per pieces
Saruman T1	43 seals - 272 medallions	516 seals - 3264 medallions
Boots and chestpiece	39 seals - 147 medallions	464 seals - 1764 medallions	10.7x Saruman
Shadow T1	25 seals - 137 medallions	300 seals - 1644 medallions
Leggings	17 seals - 66 medallions	203 seals - 786 medallions	8.1x shadow

On T2, rewards are multiplied accordingly. And that doesnt take into account the seals you get for first deed completion. It also doesnt take into account seals and medallions from other sources, including raid wings for which you already have bought the armor piece. Objectively, the only situation where this system is worse than before is when a raid team likes to gear out its "most important" people first.

I cant judge how often Orthanc is and Rift was run in your place - thats more or less a server-specific thing. I can only say that I´m likely on the smallest server with the lowest raiding population, and we still have several open ToOs going down per week.

Agree, it is obviously perceived grind. Turbine could have avoided some of the Flak by explaining it or simply presenting a stupid list like I did above. It would have been the logical thing to do in one of their many dev diaries, hence they didnt. It is sadly to be expected that people able to operate a year 2012 PC and nailing down something as complex as playing 12 disembodied characters through a MMO raid - cant take the 15 seconds to open up a calculator and do the math themselves. Instead, they perceive an increased grind and will defend their unfounded opinion to the death. Not speaking about you here, I mean the people that dismissively declare everything now a bigger grind against facts.

It just creates an additional negative vibe that we really dont need with the current state of our hobby.

props for a well thought out post -- I gave you plus rep. I really don't disagree with anything here so let me put context in to my posts.

I've lived through all the raids and I've been a very active participant from the day Rift came out -- I even hit up a couple of Helegrod raids pre Rift actually but 24 man raids back then were hard to form for many. So what is concerning me about the perceived grind -- whether it's there in reality or not -- is that the perception that the grind is there is getting worse not better. The number of vets I'm seeing abandon the game is overwhelmingly large -- the numbers of kinships hanging out on the inactive list is just way too high. PUGS are great but a thriving raiding community of active kinships tackling the tier 2 content ought to exist -- atm it's a small number on most servers able to tackle the tier 2 stuff.

So I approach my core question here -- what happened to the active raiding community I so nostalgically remember? Again not a world of pugs tackling tier 1 content -- but thriving active raiding kins with lots wanting to join them.

I do not believe Orthanc is a successful thriving raid and I believe two major issues have contributed to this. And honestly only Turbine could prove me totally wrong since only they really have the numbers to compare how many are running Orthanc now vs running Rift then -- but again, my perception is the raiding community of thriving kinships is a fraction of what it was during the Rift.

So two contributing factors -- first the raid was released with what turned out to be basically impossible content. It may have been mathematically possible in theory -- but not even the top co-ordinated kins could beat the challenges in Saruman and F & F for a very long time until there were some alterations made -- this discouraged a lot of hardcore raiders. It also put tier 2 out of reach of many folks who were used to running tier 2 content and challenge mode content in the last two raids. So yah -- that is a huge part of it. In skimming through posts and chatting with people both disenchanted and otherwise -- I see these two main points come up: Grind, and broken content -- even Dragon is still bugging out for a lot of people. But i digress.

Broken content is what it is -- I won't defend Turbine, but I won't attack them either. I can't fathom the amount of code that makes up this game at this point. I am actually greatful still to log in to Middle earth and see the iconic locations and enjoy what i consider a fantastic and immersive game.

The 2nd point -- I know beating a dead horse -- but Grind *is* an issue. Your chart -- that is very factual and impossible to debate or disagree with -- is going to be ineffective due to the core issue with Grind. Like I have already state -- it's a perception. I personally don't feel Turbine has done enough to change that perception. People log in and see all these currencies they have to aquire, on top of the LI's -- that while much easier to grind through than in the days of Moria -- are still a source of frustration for many (myself included there, I get heart paplitations at forge/relic masters these days since I"ve deconned so many *completed* weapons it's bloody well rediculous) -- the combination of all of these things (points to earn, currencies to spend, etc) just increases the desire to not log in. Earning currency by spinning your wheels in a game doesn't seem to inspire a sense of a fun journey. Actually for some it feels like work -- I work to earn currency IRL too.

The Barter wallet, the consolidation of currencies, etc etc -- Turbine has made a LOT of improvements I won't deny. I also can't argue that it really doesn't take that many run throughs of Orthanc to get your set unlocked and purchase it with seals. But I will argue that there is a sense of Thrill that is gone from raiding in this game. It's been gone ever since the chests were largely made up of Relics and IXP runes. Barter venders, currencies, etc have replaced traditional loot distribution and has actually alienated a part of the raiding community base that has been raiding and enjoying a style of play for many years. It does defy logic to think about but there are players who would rather earn DKP than earn Seals for example. It's a preference -- no logical reason behind it -- just a preference.

I do feel the pendulum has swung too far toward currencies where at one time for some it was too far toward chest loot. There's a middle ground somewhere - there has to be. For the future of raiding IMO there has to be. My suggestion as I've mentioned and another poster above mentioned is -- make a hybrid system. What I personally mean by that is stop -- for the love of all things Holy -- itemizing your instances with relics and runes. Lengardy items are the focus of chest loot, while you get armour from the currencies -- it's seperated and more than a bit boring right now. Itemize them with other stuff -- a VARIETY of stuff -- heck housing items are always in demand at the very list -- I've seen more than one person burn DKP on an item for cosmetic reasons as well. There is just so much they could do better with Loot chests. At this point in tim the chests practically don't matter, are anti-climatic, and serve to be a time sink in distributing relics, runes and other junk more than anything. Now i realize that's an opinion and not a fact -- but I do not think I"m alone in that opinion.

I am curious what Turbine does in the future -- I do not think they are blind to the issues I"m presenting. The differences between Orthanc and OD for example prove that. However -- the game is so entrenched in LI's atm, I'm eager to see how they dig themselves out of that pit. If they manage to at all.

Originally Posted by Comma44

So the general theme I'm noticing from my feedback is:
1. Things need to be tested to make sure numbers are balanced and that content is actually completable. Like Kriptic said, it is absolutely not ok for a raid to have to be patched (months down the raid) in order for it to be completed.
2. Content needs to be designed in a way that fight mechanics cannot be completely circumvented via a dps strat. That completely takes away from the value of the content and makes it a joke.
3. The loot needs to be worth it for people to be coming back again even once all the armour and first ages are won.

+1 This pretty much sums it up well.

On point 2, I think we did acid t2c the "correct" way once like a month before anyone else (though it was bugged to be easier than intended) then just always did the dps strat after that.

As far as the loot goes, yeah my character could work for another saruman cloak clasp for an almost unnoticable boost in stats...or I could grind limelight gorge rep and get a much bigger boost in stats.

Originally Posted by Comma44

At this point most of the members of my kin have more armour and seals than they know what to do with, more first ages than they know what to do with and they're bored. When there is no carrot at the end of the stick and the content has been out for 6 months, people lose interest.

Yup.

Originally Posted by musicman2000

Tier 1 Orthanc -- including Saruman -- appears to be widely pugged at this point. A great thing for the entire game community IMHO. However, something seems to be lacking in terms of sustaining kinships. While PUGS are great, there does seem to be a decline in kinships actively conquering the content. For example only 3 or 4 kinships on Landroval are posting success in Tier 2 Orthanc and that's about half of what tier 2 OD brought. Tier 2 OD also cut in half the number of successful kinships from BG (again those who posted their results). I realize Tier 2 Lightning is also pugged and often successfully so I"m mainly focussing on other wings when I say that. Tier 2 Acid, F & F, and Shadow kills - not to mention Saruman -- are pretty darn rare. The point I"m trying to make is that it's far too rare -- the pendulum has shifted too far.

If anything, this just underscores how many people run these things with loot as one of the main driving factors. OD worked because of Bangrist and co.

Originally Posted by musicman2000

I am curious what Turbine does in the future -- I do not think they are blind to the issues I"m presenting. The differences between Orthanc and OD for example prove that. However -- the game is so entrenched in LI's atm, I'm eager to see how they dig themselves out of that pit. If they manage to at all.

re: a hybrid model of loot drops: it's come up in threads where devs were part of the conversation (which are oddly gone, despite never being locked), so I know they've at least seen the idea.

re: "This game is entrenched in LIs": that will never get better, only worse.
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...84#post6211284
*shrug* Who expects improvements, when the system has been monetized from the ground up? If you'll buy it, they'll sell it, needlessly convoluted game system be damned.

Originally Posted by scrubmonkey

If anything, this just underscores how many people run these things with loot as one of the main driving factors. OD worked because of Bangrist and co.



re: a hybrid model of loot drops: it's come up in threads where devs were part of the conversation (which are oddly gone, despite never being locked), so I know they've at least seen the idea.

re: "This game is entrenched in LIs": that will never get better, only worse.
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...84#post6211284
*shrug* Who expects improvements, when the system has been monetized from the ground up? If you'll buy it, they'll sell it, needlessly convoluted game system be damned.

No new raid with the expansion.....doubt there will be any raiding kins left by the time it comes out.

Originally Posted by nolins12

No new raid with the expansion.....doubt there will be any raiding kins left by the time it comes out.

If I have any problems with ToO this is it. We had to wait for 4 months for real raid content to come out, and then when it did it was still buggy. I generally like Orthanc, but when I think of the 4 months leading up to that of farming draigoch once a week (This expansion doesn't even offer something on par with draigoch as far as I've seen)? Yeah...don't think I want to sign up for that again.

The Good:
We spent many, many hours enjoying the raid, so it can't be all bad.

Shadow Challenge is everything a T2 challenge fight should be. Lots of coordination, manageable chaos, straight forward mechanics, a nice mixture of Tanking, DPS, CC & Healing.

All raids should have an "easy" boss, so Lightning is well done.


The Bad:
Loot: T1 = A. T2 = D- No armor sets, we were overwhelmed by junk armor, warden gear & cloaks. 1st ages weren't even a guaranteed drop on challenge mode (glad that was fixed). A lot of junk jewelry with useless stat combinations. There were a few minor upgrades in jewelry that saved this from being an F. Since there aren't any new raids coming any time soon, changing up the loot tables with some awesome new gear would greatly extend the lifetime of this raid.

Bugs and exploits were numerous and took too long to get fixed. How do you not notice that the door to Orthanc is missing?


The Ugly:
Our hard work and countless hours were not rewarded, pretty much ruining the entire experience. Fire & Frost and Saruman - These boss fights were bad and you should feel bad. They were completely unreasonable and unplayable as designed. Drop the calculator and use some common sense. TEST the fights!

Originally Posted by Yosoff

The Good:
We spent many, many hours enjoying the raid, so it can't be all bad.

Shadow Challenge is everything a T2 challenge fight should be. Lots of coordination, manageable chaos, straight forward mechanics, a nice mixture of Tanking, DPS, CC & Healing.

All raids should have an "easy" boss, so Lightning is well done.


The Bad:
Loot: T1 = A. T2 = D- No armor sets, we were overwhelmed by junk armor, warden gear & cloaks. 1st ages weren't even a guaranteed drop on challenge mode (glad that was fixed). A lot of junk jewelry with useless stat combinations. There were a few minor upgrades in jewelry that saved this from being an F. Since there aren't any new raids coming any time soon, changing up the loot tables with some awesome new gear would greatly extend the lifetime of this raid.

Bugs and exploits were numerous and took too long to get fixed. How do you not notice that the door to Orthanc is missing?


The Ugly:
Our hard work and countless hours were not rewarded, pretty much ruining the entire experience. Fire & Frost and Saruman - These boss fights were bad and you should feel bad. They were completely unreasonable and unplayable as designed. Drop the calculator and use some common sense. TEST the fights!

/signed
7890

Overall, I'm a bunch less satisfied with Orthanc than OD. I could echo many sentiments above, but the main things in my eyes are:

* 60% of the raid was doable at launch - and for months afterward.
* 40% of the raid was both doable and had to be done largely as intended.
* This is after they fixed 100% of the trash pulls so that they had to be done as intended.
* Way too much filler (or Warden) loot. Locks 1-3 dropping the same stuff was just not smart.

Oversights or whatever, this results in a very poor show on behalf of the devs. I'm sure coding gets complicated with a game this size, etc etc etc, but IMO there are no excuses for releasing broken (or impossible) content. I don't get paid to break things at my job or put out shoddy work. And if I do those things, I expect to hear about it. If 40% of my output is done as intended and 60% (actually more) of my output is just wrong, should I expect to keep my job? Cripes, even the Weatherman is better than that.

Saruman and F/F being broken, we didn't even bother with them until U7. This definitely set us back in terms of being able to progress once it was "fixed", but the bulk of the kin didn't care to waste time doing something that couldn't (hadn't) been done - and was touted as impossible by those we respect.

It pains me to say it (and really mean it), but our niche is shrinking. Many a decent raiding kin either dissolved or dwindled to a pale shadow of their former selves in the RoI era. This is only going to continue. Right now, I am seriously questioning my future in this game. I will not pre-order RoR. I will not purchase RoR until I see something substantial to make me want to do so. I've wasted enough time trying to keep people motivated, keep the proverbial ball rolling, etc only to be constantly reminded that the transformation of this game becoming little more than a vehicle for the Store is almost complete.

I will not grind another 10 levels, the gear and Gandalf knows what else to be "rewarded" with another Orthanc experience. It all just seems so generic. One fight (Bukot) out of 5 that is truly an engaging experience, an easy mode farm boss (Kalbak) that can be farmed for the majority of the desirable loot in the raid, 2 bosses that can be pummeled with Bergzerg and an end-boss that forces you to play 20 minutes of relatively easy mode before being given a real challenge. Then having to go through that 20 minute period only to wipe in 20s, then 30s, then 40s, then 50s, etc... over and over and over.

To sum it up in one word: meh.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

The Good:
We spent many, many hours enjoying the raid, so it can't be all bad.

Shadow Challenge is everything a T2 challenge fight should be. Lots of coordination, manageable chaos, straight forward mechanics, a nice mixture of Tanking, DPS, CC & Healing.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Yosoff again.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

How do you not notice that the door to Orthanc is missing?

This made me lol, so many bugs that I almost forgot about the fact that the actual door disappeared.

My two cents..

T1 orthanc overall, I think this is well done. It is easily puggable and is an attractive raid for pugs to join. Trash is perfect on this tier, bosses, and loot. For Saruman tier 1 to have a chance to drop a clasp is also a nice feature. Turbine did well on the tier 1 side. I guess if I had a complaint, is that I think they made Bukot a little too easy on T1 as well as his trash wing. That part, I give a B.

T2, however is a different story, and I'll dissect each wing and loot overall.

Fire and Frost wing: Trash is good on this..it is easy, so I give an A on this. Boss fight on T2 without doing challenge is also fairly easy to do. I give this another A. However, the challenge...F. It's sad that it was impossible to do this in the first place, and now with this recent update, the only way to possibly do this challenge is stacking burgs. Huge Fail. Also, this having the same loot table as lightning and acid bosses, makes challenge even less motivating to do. If you want to have the same loot as acid and lightning, the challenge for fire and frost needs to be a lot easier and up to par with lightning and acid challenges.

Lightning wing: The boss and trash are good overall and is a good intro for kins to start working on T2. Boss is easy as well as trash. Loot is on par with this wing being easy. So for the 1-3 loot, it should be in this wing and possibly in the F/F wing if they dumb down the challenge. Overall, this wing gets an A.

Acid wing: The trash is challenging in here, and is in two waves. It is manageable if done right and you need practice to get through this trash if you're learning it. The boss however, the adds were bugged to start out with, but I'm glad turbine eventually fixed that part. I believe this is a good fight and needs some coordination to get this down. Even on T1, jumping around the acid pool is fairly ludicrous, which doesn't help people that have lag issues in there. Due to this mechanic and the loot being the same as F/F and lightning, I can't give this an A, eventhough the fight (minus the acid jumping) and trash is good. Since this wing, overall, is more difficult than F/F and Lightning, the loot table needs to be different. So I rate this wing a B.

Shadow wing: I love the trash in this wing. It is perfect for tier 2 adding the night casters in this fight unlike t1 where the trash is incredibly easy for being the last wing before the main boss. Also, I like the shak-hai's summoning more adds. This made the trash challenging and enjoyable. The boss fight, as well, is beautiful on T2. This fight needs a lot of coordination, and every class has a job that needs to be done for this fight to succeed. It has a nice balance of techniques needed to down this boss and challenge is on par with this fight being fairly difficult to execute. And, the icing on this beauty, it has its own loot table, in which a decent about of the loot is desirable unlike the loot tables in the other wings. This wing gets an A+ on T2.

Saruman fight: In a way, this fight was predictable doing the tier 1 fight as I figured everything would stack and getting the ring colors in order to advance to the next phase. The only thing I didn't expect was the timer in which you needed to complete the whole fight. This is a good fight with a lot of coordination, but I wished they fixed this fight sooner than they did due to the polarity issues the storm sarumans were having. I'm glad seeing a few kins down this fight on T2 and T2CM, but I hope to see this number increase as time goes on. However, the loot is underwhelming for T2 saruman and T2CM saruman. With the exception of the clasps being guaranteed drops on this tier, the loot I've seen is mehh. Bukot's table is much better than Saruman's and that is disturbing imo. However, despite the unimpressive teals, the carrot is here with the clasps on the Saruman fight. This fight, overall I have to give a C. The loot needs to be better, and I wished they fixed this fight sooner than they did.

Finally, I raid in 2 different kins on elendilmir. One being a strong raiding kin, Ramble On, and the other, a fairly casual raiding kin, Lost Legion of Dunharrow (LLoD). Due to this, I can see the contrast in interest comparing both kins and their respective goals.

With LLoD, they raid twice a week. Mainly 1 day doing as much T1 as possible before people need to go, and the 2nd day of the week, ideally doing saruman himself. Now, I'm think the direction this kin is going is possibly doing T2 lightning wing, then the 2nd day doing Saruman. For this kind of kin, this would be the most productive route to get a first age symbol or 2, and the possibility of getting a clasp. If they had another day of practice, they could possibly learn more of Orthanc T2, but due to RL and their time constraints getting together, the best this kin may accomplish is completing lightning t2cm as far as T2 goes. I also help a sister kin, and their current route is doing lightning T2 one day and saruman T1 on their other 2 raiding days. They usually get locks to saruman, by somebody in that kin pugging Orthanc on T1.

Ramble On, on the other hand, raid 4 times a week, with thursday and the weekend being their main raiding days, and Tuesday a cleanup day (or practice day). That kin is still working on downing FF T2CM even with burg stacking. They completed every other challenge in Orthanc and is determined to eventually get FF challenge down like our european friends have done with their burgs. Hopefully other raiding kins still have this desire to get all the challenges down in Orthanc despite the carrot being non-existent with F/F T2CM. But, if not, I can't blame them.

Originally Posted by Southpa

Overall, I'm a bunch less satisfied with Orthanc than OD. I could echo many sentiments above, but the main things in my eyes are:

* 60% of the raid was doable at launch - and for months afterward.
* 40% of the raid was both doable and had to be done largely as intended.
* This is after they fixed 100% of the trash pulls so that they had to be done as intended.
* Way too much filler (or Warden) loot. Locks 1-3 dropping the same stuff was just not smart.

Oversights or whatever, this results in a very poor show on behalf of the devs. I'm sure coding gets complicated with a game this size, etc etc etc, but IMO there are no excuses for releasing broken (or impossible) content. I don't get paid to break things at my job or put out shoddy work. And if I do those things, I expect to hear about it. If 40% of my output is done as intended and 60% (actually more) of my output is just wrong, should I expect to keep my job? Cripes, even the Weatherman is better than that.

Saruman and F/F being broken, we didn't even bother with them until U7. This definitely set us back in terms of being able to progress once it was "fixed", but the bulk of the kin didn't care to waste time doing something that couldn't (hadn't) been done - and was touted as impossible by those we respect.

It pains me to say it (and really mean it), but our niche is shrinking. Many a decent raiding kin either dissolved or dwindled to a pale shadow of their former selves in the RoI era. This is only going to continue. Right now, I am seriously questioning my future in this game. I will not pre-order RoR. I will not purchase RoR until I see something substantial to make me want to do so. I've wasted enough time trying to keep people motivated, keep the proverbial ball rolling, etc only to be constantly reminded that the transformation of this game becoming little more than a vehicle for the Store is almost complete.

I will not grind another 10 levels, the gear and Gandalf knows what else to be "rewarded" with another Orthanc experience. It all just seems so generic. One fight (Bukot) out of 5 that is truly an engaging experience, an easy mode farm boss (Kalbak) that can be farmed for the majority of the desirable loot in the raid, 2 bosses that can be pummeled with Bergzerg and an end-boss that forces you to play 20 minutes of relatively easy mode before being given a real challenge. Then having to go through that 20 minute period only to wipe in 20s, then 30s, then 40s, then 50s, etc... over and over and over.

To sum it up in one word: meh.

Not only do I agree with everything posted, I've arrived at the exact same conclusions as you. I've only been around lotro for a couple years, but I was very excited over those two years and really loved the game. I grew from being an MMO noob to the raid leader for one of the only 'successful' raiding kins on my server, and I think the only way to describe how I feel when I think about lotro and the coming months right now is by saying I'm sad. I'm tired of trying to keep everyone motivated about raiding when I'm starting to see very little future in it on this game myself. Not only did I preorder RoI with the most expensive package and actively beta tested everything about it I had time to, I was the first 75 on my server. Now, I'm not even sure I'm going to be playing when the next expansion drops.

I've watched as the numbers have dwindled, and interests waned with each new game coming out. I kept telling myself it's just the new toys people want to play with, but I'm not so sure if I can keep convincing myself of that. I feel like Turbine and the LOTRO devs have let me down and repeatedly failed to show that they're not interested in maintaining an engaging and rewarding end game experience. I'm waiting until the beta comes out and I can hear what the real deal is going to be with Rohan, but as things are now, I'm pretty skeptical.

It would be nice to have a raid where you didn't have to target through the LM pet to avoid lag. Just sayin.