Thread: Have the devs tried playing a creep from scratch under commendations?

I'm going to go with no. Otherwise they would realize how borked the system is now.

Barring a major overhaul, they should at least have new creep toon start with all eligible rank 0 skills and traits, and cut the cost for other skills, traits and corruptions in half.

Just join the creep raid that freeps believe is running around getting comms for lowbies on every server.

I so agree, being a new member to the creep side , Windfola server Warg : Sleath : I find it almost impossible to do even any quests if there are any freeps in the area I die,, I cannot even get most of my low lvl skills , because they cost so much, and , since i'm a greenie , noobie,.,,, I find myself dying more then questing,,,, only been playing 3 days,,,, but have not even made 1000 coins to get a low skill let alone 3000 or more to get all my skills that are mine,,, find it aggravating , and very discerning,,,,,,I keep plodding thru tho,,,, hoping to make a lil change ,, maybe by the time i'm rank 1 i'll have my starter skills, but more likely not,,,,,,The freeps seem to have the advantage there , to say the lest....

I think they'd rather play their minstrels.

Originally Posted by cavemanswoman

I so agree, being a new member to the creep side , Windfola server Warg : Sleath : I find it almost impossible to do even any quests if there are any freeps in the area I die,, I cannot even get most of my low lvl skills , because they cost so much, and , since i'm a greenie , noobie,.,,, I find myself dying more then questing,,,, only been playing 3 days,,,, but have not even made 1000 coins to get a low skill let alone 3000 or more to get all my skills that are mine,,, find it aggravating , and very discerning,,,,,,I keep plodding thru tho,,,, hoping to make a lil change ,, maybe by the time i'm rank 1 i'll have my starter skills, but more likely not,,,,,,The freeps seem to have the advantage there , to say the lest....

According to some freeps and elite creeps, you should be able to get thousands of comms per day by simply questing. Big surprise that is not so for normal players, and especially not new players. I really hope this is fixed soon.

Only way I've seen is to play freep on a linked account, got a r4 BA with r6 audacity and most of the skills (1 store skill). Otherwise it'd probably be around r7-8 which you'd get it all at which is a far-cry from the old progression of r5-6 competitiveness.

Originally Posted by stoffi

According to some freeps and elite creeps, you should be able to get thousands of comms per day by simply questing. Big surprise that is not so for normal players, and especially not new players. I really hope this is fixed soon.

Those are just the people that either play non-stop, or have freeps that help do the work for them. Lol then they use that standard for everyone.

Originally Posted by cavemanswoman

I so agree, being a new member to the creep side , Windfola server Warg : Sleath : I find it almost impossible to do even any quests if there are any freeps in the area I die,, I cannot even get most of my low lvl skills , because they cost so much, and , since i'm a greenie , noobie,.,,, I find myself dying more then questing,,,, only been playing 3 days,,,, but have not even made 1000 coins to get a low skill let alone 3000 or more to get all my skills that are mine,,, find it aggravating , and very discerning,,,,,,I keep plodding thru tho,,,, hoping to make a lil change ,, maybe by the time i'm rank 1 i'll have my starter skills, but more likely not,,,,,,The freeps seem to have the advantage there , to say the lest....

I may have killed you once or twice, but knowing what it actually is like for new creeps, I generally leave you guys alone unless I am under a high amount of harrasement.

Sleath, if you see me on my creep 'Fondor' at any time, be sure to send me a tell. I would be glad to help you grind out any comms you need to get to a more competitive level.

Originally Posted by apb8808

Just join the creep raid that freeps believe is running around getting comms for lowbies on every server.

Must be the Warg pack ... you know the one thats always/must be/just has to be grouped.

Originally Posted by Untg99

I may have killed you once or twice, but knowing what it actually is like for new creeps, I generally leave you guys alone unless I am under a high amount of harrasement.

Sleath, if you see me on my creep 'Fondor' at any time, be sure to send me a tell. I would be glad to help you grind out any comms you need to get to a more competitive level.

+rep

1234567

I think most folks that are complaining about the comm costs for new creeps and suggest a reevaluation/reduction of those costs, are misinterpreting Turbines intentions.

Turbine wants the comms/skill cost high. It is intentional to drive players to the store to buy skills. You can either grind away to obtain comms, a rather brutal process, or you can buy your skills and use what comms you get for audacity.

Again, this is intentional IMO. It creates a revenue stream for Turbine and I wouldn't expect it to change anytime soon. I know it sucks, it is just the way things are so either adapt to the new situation or stop playing.

Refering back to my Psych 101, this is refered to as a avoidance-avoidance conflict. A forced choice between two unpleasant alternatives both of which lead to negative results.

Originally Posted by gungus_coyote

Turbine wants the comms/skill cost high. It is intentional to drive players to the store to buy skills. You can either grind away to obtain comms, a rather brutal process, or you can buy your skills and use what comms you get for audacity.

You have a 3rd choice, which is not to start (or at least, not invest in) a new creep at all... I made a warg mostly to get some commendations for my Captain, but also to see how the other half lived. I probably would have played him more if the costs of getting skills and audacity weren't so outrageous. I'm a lifer, so could invest some of my TP allowance on skills without spending real money, but don't feel like doing so. If the low level skills were more in line with my expectations, I'd have considered spending some comms there. I think Turbine has erred in their strategy, at least with regard to me. If the initial skills were cheaper, I'd likely have bought them for comms and played around with my warg more. If I found I liked it, I'd then have been invested in my creep, and much more likely to spend TPs on more expensive higher level skills. But for now, feels like "The only winning move is not to play"...

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

You have a 3rd choice, which is not to start (or at least, not invest in) a new creep at all... I made a warg mostly to get some commendations for my Captain, but also to see how the other half lived. I probably would have played him more if the costs of getting skills and audacity weren't so outrageous. I'm a lifer, so could invest some of my TP allowance on skills without spending real money, but don't feel like doing so. If the low level skills were more in line with my expectations, I'd have considered spending some comms there. I think Turbine has erred in their strategy, at least with regard to me. If the initial skills were cheaper, I'd likely have bought them for comms and played around with my warg more. If I found I liked it, I'd then have been invested in my creep, and much more likely to spend TPs on more expensive higher level skills. But for now, feels like "The only winning move is not to play"...

Agreed, I had a rank 3 BA, pre comms/audacity with a few store bought skills. I used him to farm comms for my cappy. He's almost rank 6 by just farming map quests and I haven't spent hardly any comms on him. I think I spent some on I See You and IP. All comms have gone for audacity gear for the cappy.

I also have a R7 warg and a R5 reaver, both of which have earned all skills, no store. I haven't touched them other to run some quests to farm comms.

Pre audacity, I was agreeable to using the store for my brand new shiny BA for some of the high ranked skills and would purchase the low ranked skills with DP as I ranked. This strategy By Turbine atleast had me using the store somewhat. I need to spend those 500 TP's/month on something.

Now, I have absolutely no interest in starting a new creep and would have used the same store strat of buying some high ranked skills and earning the lower skills. Was thinking a spider may have been interesting but not now. Like you say, Turbines strategy has backfired for me cause I have zero interest in starting a new creep and using the store some. It has actually decreassed my store use instead of increasing it.

The dev's only experience playing in pvmp is when they were advertising the new skins and came out on a normal r15 warg and died horribly, then came out on a 40k r15 hunter... and still died horribly, but took longer to die.

I have one of each creep but never play them except the BA. The rest I made merely to get the gifts from the 5th anniversary fest. I stand at Grams and wait for the freeps to come there. Otherwise I run like hell solo to do PvE. When I can I will follow a group and help out, but generally it seems pretty futile to play creepside.

Originally Posted by Ozthorn

I'm going to go with no. Otherwise they would realize how borked the system is now.

Barring a major overhaul, they should at least have new creep toon start with all eligible rank 0 skills and traits, and cut the cost for other skills, traits and corruptions in half.

The devs know what is offered as far as quest/deed rewards and while some classes may need more than others it works out.

The 225 (new characters don't need to grind out good isen, just let it come over time) map quests combined with the ~15 map deeds along with the initial deeds for the first 30 KBs and deeds from keeps combined with what you get from actual PvP is more than enough to keep you from having to "grind" anything on a new creep. BTW that doesn't include the quests that do not count towards deeds which adds up to a large amount over the time it takes to get your maps with little or no extra effort.

Get your maps and you'll be fine.

And for those of you having trouble getting ganked while questing this is not new and should not create a total impasse I'd suggest you move to one of the many other places you need to go for your map quests.

Originally Posted by n38

The devs know what is offered as far as quest/deed rewards and while some classes may need more than others it works out.

The 225 (new characters don't need to grind out good isen, just let it come over time) map quests combined with the ~15 map deeds along with the initial deeds for the first 30 KBs and deeds from keeps combined with what you get from actual PvP is more than enough to keep you from having to "grind" anything on a new creep. BTW that doesn't include the quests that do not count towards deeds which adds up to a large amount over the time it takes to get your maps with little or no extra effort.

Get your maps and you'll be fine.

And for those of you having trouble getting ganked while questing this is not new and should not create a total impasse I'd suggest you move to one of the many other places you need to go for your map quests.

"Want to PvP? Go PvE for days while being subject to ganking you can do nothing about"

Originally Posted by n38

And for those of you having trouble getting ganked while questing this is not new and should not create a total impasse I'd suggest you move to one of the many other places you need to go for your map quests.

^ Obviously a freep who likes to gank greenies doing maps :P

They have TPs for free.
Problem solved.

Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk

"Want to PvP? Go PvE for days while being subject to ganking you can do nothing about"

Maps have always, and will continue to always be the most important thing for a new player to do.

All Turbine did was make it more worthwhile for new players that would have just ran to TA and zerged EC all day.

Real PvP players understand that PvE is always part of it if you want to be at your best, in this game and all others like it.

Originally Posted by n38

Real PvP players understand that PvE is always part of it if you want to be at your best, in this game and all others like it.

Not ALL

Ya you know what I mean

Originally Posted by n38

Maps have always, and will continue to always be the most important thing for a new player to do.

All Turbine did was make it more worthwhile for new players that would have just ran to TA and zerged EC all day.

Real PvP players understand that PvE is always part of it if you want to be at your best, in this game and all others like it.

I don't deny that, but before while collecting your maps...you could actually afford your skills. DP was easy to get. Maps aren't more worthwhile now, everything else has been made worthless.

They know what they are doing.... Good luck to anyone who actually tries to start a new creep, comms are just another dagger to kill lotro pvp.

Difficult enough as it was before the commendations implementation. Seems like an even much longer grind to start a creep from scrap to some ranks with the skills bought. Then take into account audacity, relative dps for lowrank creeps is much lower then it was before and audacity ranks are really needed now to have some survivabilty. I wonder if the purpose is to keep new creeps out of the moors.

Making my comeback now it's already hard enough to get some audacity ranks on my ranked creepchars to be on par with the rest again. I remember killing stuff was lot's easier when my reaver was r5 then now at r11.

Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk

I don't deny that, but before while collecting your maps...you could actually afford your skills. DP was easy to get. Maps aren't more worthwhile now, everything else has been made worthless.

Had you ever tried to get all your skills through solely PvP while DP was still used? That seems to be what people keep saying about the new system, it's actually far, far easier to get your skills/deeds through solely PvP now than it ever was.

The amount of time it takes to get a new creep ready is longer than it was before commendations, but that is needed. Turbine removed all of the initial start up costs over the past few years, those are still gone you just need to spend a little more time on it than you would have before to catch up. Doing the same thing... just over a slightly longer amount of time, I can't stress that enough you only have to do what you would have before it's just more important to do in a timely manner.

And no maps aren't more worthwhile now, but they have always been well worth any amount of effort needed to get them. And I'm not sure what you feel has been made worthless so I'll just leave that.

I haven't taken a creep from rank 0 up, but I tried taking my R3 spider to R4. I tried soloing, camping some area like bottom of GV hill, bear valley, etc to do some 1v1s. I only beat 5 people 1v1, a 4500 burg, couple hunters and a couple LMs. All were fairly bad players except for a r9 hunter who moved like a semi-truck in reverse. So, out of about 50 1v1s, i won about 1 in 10. Otherwise I had to hug NPCs or the zerg. A friend even gave me a 30 second head start on his minstrel where the rules were he couldn't DPS or heal. After dropping him a few K, he literally killed me in 3 hits. It was so unbalanced and unfair we both literally had a laugh about it over vent. It was enough to make me realize that PvP in this game is not worth investing the time. I'll probably stick around to help my kin through F&F CM, but PvP here to me is dead.

Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

It was enough to make me realize that PvP in this game is not worth investing the time. I'll probably stick around to help my kin through F&F CM, but PvP here to me is dead.

Sad to hear that, but it's definitely a healthy decision.

/waitsimpatientlyforGW2

Originally Posted by TroyW

They know what they are doing.... Good luck to anyone who actually tries to start a new creep, comms are just another dagger to kill lotro pvp.

^---This

+Rep

Wish I could go back and stop myself from wasting all that TP on creep side for classes and all.

I'm new to the game, I've mostly been playing PvE, but I gave PvMP a try this week - I've played plenty of other PvP games and loved it. So I started a reaver (Thunkrash on Elendilmir), and ran around doing the scouting quest, attacking people that I saw. It seemed fun at first, but then I hit Rank 1 today, and ran to my trainer to go train skills. I looked at my paltry 646 commendations and then at the cost of the skills, and my only thought is, "Seriously?"

I only have 5 kills to 11 deaths so far because you start out so horribly underpowered, so I was hoping that ranking up would make things more viable. Apparently I have to go grind quests at every location to make enough commendations so that I can buy the skills to be marginally useful in PvP. Instead I'm going back to my PvE toons. The PvE on the free peoples side is so much more interesting. Collecting slug meat, troll slabs, etc. over and over again so that I can get maps is really unfun. Fighting players is really fun, but I can pound on them for several minutes (with NPCs also hitting them) and barely do any damage, while I seem to die if they look at me too long.

Is this how you guys that have been around gotten to high ranks? Because I can't really see myself continuing in monster play like this.

Originally Posted by n38

The devs know what is offered as far as quest/deed rewards and while some classes may need more than others it works out.

The 225 (new characters don't need to grind out good isen, just let it come over time) map quests combined with the ~15 map deeds along with the initial deeds for the first 30 KBs and deeds from keeps combined with what you get from actual PvP is more than enough to keep you from having to "grind" anything on a new creep. BTW that doesn't include the quests that do not count towards deeds which adds up to a large amount over the time it takes to get your maps with little or no extra effort.

Get your maps and you'll be fine.

And for those of you having trouble getting ganked while questing this is not new and should not create a total impasse I'd suggest you move to one of the many other places you need to go for your map quests.

um...........what?

Heh, I remember turbines last GM event. They auto ranked themselves to r15 and when that wasn't enough they hacked their morale to like 40k. I doubt the devs play this game in their spare time and I don't blame them.

It isn't the devs fault. They have bosses and their bosses have bosses. WB bought out turbine and is trying to make as much money as possible. It is entertaining watching how far WB will put their reputation on the line in order to make money off this game, however, pvmp really is only a small portion of lotro and when you factor in their ftp business model their is little room for it to thrive.

I started my first creep about a month and a half ago (I know -- exactly at the wrong time) and after much blood and sweat and tears (and more tears) I am R5 with about one-third of the skills I should have for my rank and one additional rank of audacity. Whoop-de-doo. I've gotten most of my maps (Isendeep is left), but my rating and kill/be killed ratio are pathetic. I don't know how much longer I'm willing to stick it out. Some nights are simply not fun at all, and I refuse on principle to buy creep skills in the Store, which may be a bit stubborn of me. I keep hoping that they'll come to their senses and lower some of the commendation costs at least. If not, the only new creeps left to rank up will be players with other creeps/freeps who already have a lot of commendations.

Originally Posted by n38

The 225 (new characters don't need to grind out good isen, just let it come over time) map quests combined with the ~15 map deeds along with the initial deeds for the first 30 KBs and deeds from keeps combined with what you get from actual PvP is more than enough to keep you from having to "grind" anything on a new creep. BTW that doesn't include the quests that do not count towards deeds which adds up to a large amount over the time it takes to get your maps with little or no extra effort.

Get your maps and you'll be fine.

And for those of you having trouble getting ganked while questing this is not new and should not create a total impasse I'd suggest you move to one of the many other places you need to go for your map quests.

1. You can only turn in quests ONCE per day.

2. Some quests are too stupid to bother with cuz they take too long and require a group.

3. The keeps aren't always red and people aren't always on for keep flipping -- aka can't even turn in quests.

4. Crude maps share a 30min CD and only offer 500 commendations and require 10 keep quests (you won't get this in a day but can easily hit R1). Aka..following further BEHIND for skills/traits

5. Poor maps require an extra 15 quest turn-ins...will easily be R3 by time people get these but will have more skills available + audacity. Again, will fall further BEHIND for their rank.

6. Some quests won't be available even if the keeps are red (oil/ore for example) because they're at the 10/10 limit for the keep.

I won't even bother going on. You obviously never tried starting a creep from scratch and sound like a dev, aka clueless.

I won't even bother going on. You obviously never tried starting a creep from scratch and sound like a dev, aka clueless.[/QUOTE]

I stand corrected....LOTRO pvp does still have a purpose; it makes me laugh!

Originally Posted by Gilcrist

I'm new to the game, I've mostly been playing PvE, but I gave PvMP a try this week - I've played plenty of other PvP games and loved it. So I started a reaver (Thunkrash on Elendilmir), and ran around doing the scouting quest, attacking people that I saw. It seemed fun at first, but then I hit Rank 1 today, and ran to my trainer to go train skills. I looked at my paltry 646 commendations and then at the cost of the skills, and my only thought is, "Seriously?"

I only have 5 kills to 11 deaths so far because you start out so horribly underpowered, so I was hoping that ranking up would make things more viable. Apparently I have to go grind quests at every location to make enough commendations so that I can buy the skills to be marginally useful in PvP. Instead I'm going back to my PvE toons. The PvE on the free peoples side is so much more interesting. Collecting slug meat, troll slabs, etc. over and over again so that I can get maps is really unfun. Fighting players is really fun, but I can pound on them for several minutes (with NPCs also hitting them) and barely do any damage, while I seem to die if they look at me too long.

Is this how you guys that have been around gotten to high ranks? Because I can't really see myself continuing in monster play like this.

Don't listen to any of the obvious trolls posting in this thread. The easiest way to get commendations for your creep is to play freep.

As for the reaver bit....reavers need some serious loving. RoI was not kind to reavers and the gap just keeps growing. If you enjoy PvMP see about getting into a tribe and having people help you with some of the more rewarding pve (outposts, mayor, etc) as well as getting in on raids. Things will get a little better for you as you practice and rank, but frankly there is no way the rewards for ranking a creep are equivalent to the time and effort it takes. Best thing the moors have going for them is the community and that is going downhill quickly. Some would even say it has already bottomed out.

Within minutes of logging in as a creep after the commendation system had been implemented, it was abundantly clear that there was a serious problem with the costs of skills in relation to the rate that commendations could be acquired. While freeps earn audacity gear creeps have to choose between the purchase of audacity and skills, creating a further imbalance between both factions.

Correct me if I'm wrong, months after the commendations system was implemented we have yet to hear any feedback from developers about these concerns or acknowledgement that there is a problem. The cynic in me thinks that the real reason commendations were implemented were to drive creeps to purchase skills from the store. Turbine don't seem to have learned from the stat gear for sale in store debacle.

I was a very casual moors player, I wasn't particularly good. The commendation system ruined the moors for me, I want to advance my characters through gameplay not store purchases, after commendations were implemented it was no longer viable.

For F2P/Premium accounts they still only get 2 free corruptions/race traits/class traits. All the others still have to be unlocked thru the store, even on reaver. Maybe you can pay for a month of VIP, log on the toon, and the stuff will stay unlocked once VIP expires but they're still paying $$.

I can see the reasoning for paying to unlock the extra trait slots but adding that in with the crazy cost of commendations probably makes new comers turn away from the Moors and never look back.

Originally Posted by cmal

Don't listen to any of the obvious trolls posting in this thread. The easiest way to get commendations for your creep is to play freep.

As for the reaver bit....reavers need some serious loving. RoI was not kind to reavers and the gap just keeps growing. If you enjoy PvMP see about getting into a tribe and having people help you with some of the more rewarding pve (outposts, mayor, etc) as well as getting in on raids. Things will get a little better for you as you practice and rank, but frankly there is no way the rewards for ranking a creep are equivalent to the time and effort it takes. Best thing the moors have going for them is the community and that is going downhill quickly. Some would even say it has already bottomed out.

Thanks for the advice. I did have a good time following a raid around last night. Although they never invited me (not sure if there's a special channel I should join, I mostly just watched /ooc), there was a friendly healer that kept me alive while I charged in to stuff, and I now have more kills than deaths. I also followed them while they killed First Marshall An - I didn't get credit since I wasn't in the raid, but I guess that will change when they get to know me.

Although I'm new, I'm actually a VIP. I have access to all the classes, but I picked the reaver because I like melee dps. Maybe they'll give the class some love.

I might keep tinkering around with it a bit, but I don't really want to spend a lot of TPs on my reaver in addition to the monthly fee - I've been using those points to buy things for my loremaster. Maybe if I hold out long enough there will be a rebalancing or commendation cost changes.

I find it odd that the most expensive thing you can buy is a new skin. Changing your appearance is what really attaches you to your character. It should be the cheapest thing, so that you feel an attachment to your character and are more motivated to keep at it.

Turbine/WB has a plan and they will not change it for anything,unless it turns a large profit. They are not interested in changing the game to please the players in anyway,shape or form. They are a company and are only here to make money that's it.

Pvmp in Lotro has very little value to them and you best get use to the idea,cause that idea is reality.

Originally Posted by Gilcrist

Thanks for the advice. I did have a good time following a raid around last night. Although they never invited me (not sure if there's a special channel I should join, I mostly just watched /ooc), there was a friendly healer that kept me alive while I charged in to stuff, and I now have more kills than deaths. I also followed them while they killed First Marshall An - I didn't get credit since I wasn't in the raid, but I guess that will change when they get to know me.

Although I'm new, I'm actually a VIP. I have access to all the classes, but I picked the reaver because I like melee dps. Maybe they'll give the class some love.

I might keep tinkering around with it a bit, but I don't really want to spend a lot of TPs on my reaver in addition to the monthly fee - I've been using those points to buy things for my loremaster. Maybe if I hold out long enough there will be a rebalancing or commendation cost changes.

I find it odd that the most expensive thing you can buy is a new skin. Changing your appearance is what really attaches you to your character. It should be the cheapest thing, so that you feel an attachment to your character and are more motivated to keep at it.

If you see me or any of my alts E just give me a wave. I'm sure I have some map materials you could have. Also, if you aren't already in Teamspeak on E, just get someone to spam that info in OOC - can help with getting to know people.