Who do you think Tom Bombadil is? I cant remember reading if the One Ring would affect a Valar , We do know it does the Maia, ( Saurman being corrupted just by studying the lore of the One Ring, and even Gandalf being fearful of the temptation ) Surely hes not the One him self? Old Tom has always been a pleasant mystery to me, and I would like to hear others Ideas about him.
"I dont't know half of you half as well as i should like; and i like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
I think he's an annoying intrusion from our world, out of place and out of time, to delight and amuse Tolkien's children.
TB is a kind of leftover fossil from the early writing of what we now know as LOTR, when it was going to be a straight sequel to The Hobbit. Tolkien barely touched the early chapters after he'd made the decision to turn it into an epic (when he decided that the Necromancer had been Sauron in disguise, and that Bilbo's ring was far more than it had seemed to be), and it shows.
Tom Bombadil is the Jar-Jar Binks of Middle-earth.
Harsh indeed!
If TB had been like Jar-Jar, he'd probably have fallen through the roof of that barrow and landed on the wight, squashing it flat. "Oops, sorree!"
Tom Bombadil…a hitchhiker on
Highway 61, The long and Winding Road, Positively 4th Street, The Yellow Brick Road, Shakedown Street, Penny Lane, Desolation Row, The Greenway, Thunder Road, Bleeker Street, Ventura Highway…
Give him a ride, he'll tell you a story.
Like I told you... What I said...Steal your face right off your head.
Actually Tom Bombadil is the exact opposite of Jar-Jar or comical relief, Tolkien didn't knew the function within Middle-earth mythos as any lore-junkie could tell you.
What I think Tom Bombadil is:
is deus-ex machina or a shaman placed to help the ring-bearer survive the barrow downs in order to destroy the ring, without him the world of middle earth collapse, the song of the ainur is stopped, Eru has to "interfere" though valar.
other explanation is that he is kind of like eagles and they are sent by Valar directly, so the valar yavanna sent him or made him by singing (outside the world) or sent him before even dwarves were made.
I like to believe he is one of the many lesser known Ainur that followed the Vala into Arda; not one of the powers but not a lesser Maiar. He did say he has been there always or from the beginning. Could be why the ring held no power over him, even to seeing Frodo with the Ring on.
He's the hero Middle-earth deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So, he'll skip and sing, because he's mental. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian. A watchful protector. An OP minstrel...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
Civ II rules after all these years......
This topic has already been covered several times in this forum. This may have been easily discovered by using the Advanced Search/Forums tool, placing 'Bombadil' in the Keywords box and selecting 'J.R.R. Tolkien' in the Search in Forums drop down list where would have found the following duplicate threads:
There are some who believe that Tolkien is playing a game with us, that all the clues to Tom's true identity are there for the person or persons with enough wisdom, intelligence, and diligence to ferret them out. I find that this line of thinking is contrary to what Tolkien stated in his letter to Peter Hastings in September of 1954 ( Letter 153, The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien):
I don’t think Tom needs philosophizing about, and is not improved by it.
I believe that the Hobbits' approach to Tom, as depicted in The Fellowship of the Ring, is precisely the approach Tolkien meant us to take:
Frodo and Sam as if enchanted...
The hobbits sat still before him, enchanted...
Whether the morning and evening of one day or many days had passed Frodo could not tell…He spoke at last out of his wonder…
Then Tom and Goldberry set the table; and the hobbits sat half in wonder and half in laughter; so fair was the grace of Goldberry and so merry and odd the caperings of Tom.
'What do you mean?' asked Pippin, looking at him, half puzzled and half amused.
Tom sang most of the time, but it was chiefly nonsense, or else perhaps a strange language unknown to the hobbits, an ancient language whose words were mainly those of wonder and delight.
Sam summarizes their feelings when he says after Tom has set them off on the path to Bree:
‘He’s a caution and no mistake. I reckon we may go a good deal further and see naught better, nor queerer.’
The hobbits themselves explored the mystery of Tom’s identity. Frodo asks Goldberry who Tom is. Her answer:
’He is, as you have seen him…He is the Master of wood, water, and hill…He has no fear. Tom Bombadil is the master.’
Not satisfied with Goldberry's response, Frodo asks Tom himself. Tom replies:
‘Eh what?...Don’t you know my name yet? That’s the only answer…Eldest, that’s what I am…’
Bombadil's precise identity is supposed to be mystery (Letter 144):
And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).
The character of Tom Bombadil has many detractors. Some find him silly, or even annoying. Some believe that Tolkien inserted Bombadil into the story at a point where he had no clear idea of where it was going, and left Tom in the story merely because he had no desire to remove what he’d already written despite its seeming incongruence with the remainder of the story. Those who hold this opinion apparently do not believe Tolkien when he wrote (Letter 144):
Tom Bombadil is not an important person—to the narrative…he represents something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyze the feeling precisely I would not, however, have left him in, if he did not have some kind of function…
It would seem that regardless of the circumstances that led Tolkien to inserting Bombadil in LOTR—and leaving him in LOTR despite those who apparently attempted to persuade Tolkien to remove him—Tom was meant to be included and does serve a purpose in Tolkien's story. Whether or not that purpose is perceived by every reader, however, is another question.
Of everything I've ever read about Bombadil, I like best what Tom Shippey wrote in J.R.R. Tolkien: Author of the Century:
Finally Tom Bombadil himself was from his first conception a genius loci, a ‘spirit of the place’, the place being, as Tolkien remarked to Unwin (see Letters, p.26), ‘the (vanishing) Oxfordshire and Berkshire countryside’. The elves in The Lord of the Rings call him ‘oldest and fatherless’; he is the one creature whom the Ring has no power at all, not even to make invisible; but he could not defy Sauron permanently, for his power ‘is in the earth itself’, and Sauron ‘can torture and destroy the very hills’. He is a kind of exhalation of the earth, a nature-spirit and once again a highly English one: cheerful, noisy, unpretentious to the point of shabbiness, extremely direct, apparently rather simple, not as simple as he looks. The fact that everything he says is in a sort of verse, whether printed as verse or not, and that the hobbits too find themselves ‘singing merrily, as if it was easier and more natural than talking’, make him seem, not an artist, but someone from an age before art and nature were distinguished, when magic needed no wizard’s staff but came from words alone. Tolkien may have got the idea from the singing wizards of the Finnish epic the Kalevala, which he so much admired, and which he perhaps wished might also have an English counterpart.
Whoever he was, he was one of the first, if not the first, of Maiar-level spirits to inhabit Arda, and was the most powerful force for good in Middle-Earth, at least on his own terms.
Recall the discussion of the Wise regarding what would happen if Sauron obtained the ring. The rest of Middle-Earth would fall, leaving Lorien, Elrond, and Bombadil as islands amid darkness. Last of all, Bombadil would fall "Last as he was First". That simple phrase reveals everything.
Tom was there... before Melkor came from "Outside"? Wasn't Morgoth the very first being to enter into Ea, and eventually Arda? Tom is implying that he was here before the Ainur came to Arda - ie before they came to Ea - ie before Ea was formed.
This makes me wonder... and I know this sounds crazy, but was Tom an embodiment of Ainulindale itself? A physical being representing the song which brought forth the vision to the Ainur of Ea?
Peaceguy
"With that, I ran back to Hobbiton, Land of the Noobs" - TSK
I woudn't say that he's the Witch-King like the theory says - wouldn't he in that case have just taken the Ring and killed Frodo, and aren't the ringwraiths slaves, without much free will to spend? And what is Goldberry doing with him if he's evil?
He's a mystery indeed - but my guess is that he is (an independent) Maia, since they come in many forms. Why else is Gandalf interested about talking with him when he returns from the war? If he was the Witch-King, wouldn't he have been born much later and wouldn't he have been dead by the time Gandalf arrives?
Gandalf, Bombadil and Goldberry might as well be the same race - Maiar. Another notable thing is his other name "Iarwain Ben-Adar" - Eldest and Fatherless which could point to Eru himself. Goldberry saying about him "He is." could point to him being an avatar of Arda, because in the creation of Arda Eru said "Let these things be." Read more here, if you like.
Last edited by Lindaelle; Jun 01 2012 at 10:33 PM.
'There now the numbers of Eldar increase,' Voronwë said, 'for ever more flee thither of either kin from the fear of Morgoth, weary of war.'
Tom was there... before Melkor came from "Outside"? Wasn't Morgoth the very first being to enter into Ea, and eventually Arda? Tom is implying that he was here before the Ainur came to Arda - ie before they came to Ea - ie before Ea was formed.
This makes me wonder... and I know this sounds crazy, but was Tom an embodiment of Ainulindale itself? A physical being representing the song which brought forth the vision to the Ainur of Ea?
Yay! That quote is why I believe he is a manifestation of Arda (since avatar of Eru has been pointed out to be impossible).
That quote never made sense to me when I was younger (read the books when I was 11). It was only after I read the Silmarillion in full about 5 or 6 year later that I finally had an idea of who the Dark Lord was who came from Outside.
There is also one of the letters that said something about a Tolkien son having a Toy and his name was Tom or something along those lines I think, maybe another theory could be the "toy actually lives in Middle earth"
I think Tolkien invented Tom Bombadil to troll people trying to figure out everything in his stories.
On a more serious note - I think Tom is supposed to be an enigma in order to elevate the story of the Ring from legend to myth. Maybe he is an embodiment of the earth itself, but that point seems irrelevant compared to what he represents.
Did you really think this signature would be worth reading?
I woudn't say that he's the Witch-King like the theory says
I believe that "theory" is intentionally satirical, i.e., it should not be taken seriously. There are a number of wild theories about the nature of Tom Bombadil. It is my belief that the author was demonstrating that even something as absurd as Bombadil and the Witch-king being the same individual could be developed into a theory.
And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one.
Logically, there aren't many explanations. He is certainly more powerful than a Maia, though whether he is on the same "scale" of power is questionable. It's unlikely that Tolkien meant for him to be a Vala either. They ruled themselves out of involvement in Middle Earth's affairs, and to find one living in a hut in a forest near the Shire is unusual to say the least.
His power is enough that the ring, with all of Sauron's malice, has no effect on him at all. He doesn't feel any effect when he handles it, nor does the ring's 'invisibility' work on him. The last part seems to imply he is able to see all the "planes" or different "worlds", the living world and the wraith or spirit world, at least, at once. He has power only within the confines of his wood though, whether this restriction is self imposed or not is unclear. It doesn't seem likely there would be many beings able to impose such a restriction on him, at least not if he opposed it.
The Lord of the Rings books you read are, or at least were intended to be, written largely as if from the point of view of the Hobbits. The Hobbits themselves have no idea who Tom is, which I think is why no explanation is offered by Tolkien. Tom would mystify and fascinate the Hobbits much in the same way he does us, which was probably the intention.
He is the Eldest. You could assume he was Eru, or even Ea incarnate. Whether or not finding an explanation improves his character or not is up to the individual, I think I'd prefer he remained an enigma.
And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one.
No quotation marks? This, of course, was written by J.R.R. Tolkien, and may be found in Letter 144.
Originally Posted by Curandhras
You could assume he was Eru...
No, you cannot assume he was Eru. As quoted in a previous post in this thread, Tolkien wrote in Letter 181:
There is no embodiment of the One, of God, who indeed remains remote, outside the World, and only directly accessible to the Valar or Rulers.
You don't even have to look outside of LOTR to see that. During the Council of Elrond it is surmised that should the Dark Lord regain his Ring the world would be overthrown, with Tom Bombadil likely the last to fall. Sauron, a mere Maia, certainly could not overthrow Eru Ilúvatar.
He is the big enigma of Middle-earth, but it's always fun to guess.
To me personally, he is the living spirit of Arda or Middle-earth as a whole, just like there are spirits for rivers, woods, lakes and mountains seperately. He embodies all of them together, having been created as Arda took shape. He was there before Melkor "came from the outside" as he says it, and he will be last to remain, Eldest and Fatherless. As Midde-earth is changed and reshaped, he too changes with it. Though Sauron has no direct power over him, Galdor mentions "And yet we see that Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills", connecting Bombadil to the earth.
(I'm having visions of the Balrog breaking a mountain just means Bombadil loses a wrinkle somewhere)
In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes. When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead
The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.
To clarify what I wrote earlier (It got obscured by a black font color for some reason)
I believe Tom is a physical form given to Ainulindale itself, the Song of Creation. Some points to support this:
1. His songs are stronger than any, as he claims. This is definitely true for Ainulindale, as it governed the fate of Middle-Earth.
2. He was there before the Dark Lord (Morgoth) came from Outside. Morgoth was the first being to enter Ea and Arda. It makes sense that Tom was there before even him, as he created Ea and Arda, being Ainulindale.
3. He commanded the Wight in the barrow, and it obeyed. This makes sense as Tom (being Ainulindale) governed fate itself. The Wight had to obey, as the Spirit inside it was bound by fate, and only living Men having the gift of Free Will from Eru could disobey.
4. Tom is married to Goldberry, who was "River-daughter". "River-daughter" may imply she is a Maia, or perhaps the daughter of Ulmo. But I believe that thus Goldberry represents Arda, as she is described as a natural feature of Arda. In this way, it is shown how Ainulindale is "married" to Arda, that is, they are joined and inseparable.
5. When Frodo asks Goldberry what Tom is, she replies "He is". She clarifies, saying "Tom Bombadil is the Master", "No one has ever old Tom...". After all, Fate is the Master, and no one can control or change it.
There were many other points I thought of, but they just don't come to mind now. And remember, as always, this is IMO.
Peaceguy
"With that, I ran back to Hobbiton, Land of the Noobs" - TSK
No quotation marks? This, of course, was written by J.R.R. Tolkien, and may be found in Letter 144.
Of course. I'd assume most people on here know this, especially since it has been quoted many times in this thread.
Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock
No, you cannot assume he was Eru.
With respect, you (that being the impersonal you, as in, anyone in this thread, or anywhere in the world) can assume what ever you want with regards to Tom, that's part of the fun. Tolkien has written many things in his letters to people, things which may or may not be considered canon depending on your viewpoint. I don't assume this, rather that he is an embodiment of the "universe", either the secret fire its self, or the music.
Originally Posted by oldbadgerbrock
You don't even have to look outside of LOTR to see that. During the Council of Elrond it is surmised that should the Dark Lord regain his Ring the world would be overthrown, with Tom Bombadil likely the last to fall. Sauron, a mere Maia, certainly could not overthrow Eru Ilúvatar.
Firstly, it is assumed that Tom would be the last to fall. There are a fair few things predicted in the Lord of the Rings be various people, not all of which play out as thought - the fact that he is given special dispensation as the last to fall at least acknowledges his position of immense incorruptibility and power.
Secondly, to say that an embodiment of any higher being or purpose can not be overthrown is slightly unjustified. The physical ties of Tom on Arda could be cut without ever "overthrowing" God.
I take a similar stance to Haunt, it seems the most likely, logical explanation. Although I maintain that the mystery behind him is far more satisfying than any explanation could be.
Last edited by Curandhras; Jul 12 2012 at 01:53 PM.
With respect, you (that being the impersonal you, as in, anyone in this thread, or anywhere in the world) can assume what ever you want with regards to Tom, that's part of the fun.
We're told Eru didn't manifest himself within his creation, so you can't legitimately assume Tom is Eru. If you also take into account that 'Eru' was just a pseudonym for God (literally, in Tolkien's imagination, not just a being like God but 'really' God, in all but name) then that rules it out entirely because Tolkien said he'd never presume to write about an incarnation of God. (JRRT was devoutly Catholic, after all).
So I'm sorry, but that one really does fall apart rapidly under close scrutiny.
We're told Eru didn't manifest himself within his creation, so you can't legitimately assume Tom is Eru. If you also take into account that 'Eru' was just a pseudonym for God (literally, in Tolkien's imagination, not just a being like God but 'really' God, in all but name) then that rules it out entirely because Tolkien said he'd never presume to write about an incarnation of God. (JRRT was devoutly Catholic, after all).
So I'm sorry, but that one really does fall apart rapidly under close scrutiny.
I think my meaning in saying "you could assume" has been taken the wrong way, which is understandable, on reflection I didn't make my meaning very clear.
I didn't mean to say "you could legitimately assume". Part of the mystery of Tom, at least imo, is that at face value you aren't given any concrete indications as to his origin. Reading around, including Tolkien's letters clearly narrows down, or at least rules out theories. The (hopefully jokingly written) theory earlier in this thread that Tom and the Witch King are one and the same is what I'm getting at. Clearly this falls down under ... distant.. scrutiny, but there aren't many other characters where the thought could be entertained, however briefly.
In short, I didn't mean to try and give any weight or justification to any theories/ideas about Tom's origin or meaning, I meant to highlight the wide range of theories there are, this is, to me at least, the best part about the character.
If he were then there would be a certain amount of evil within him as it is within the world.
The Ainulindale is not good or evil, it just is, though it was made to be imperfect due to the discord caused by Melkor. Fate may be harsh, but calling it evil is like saying wind is evil, as it is sometimes part of a storm.
Thus, Tom had his imperfections too. The Council could not trust him to protect the Ring because of some. But as Illuvatar said to the Ainur:
And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined
(Akkalabeth, The Silmarillion)
Elrond said that if the Dark Lord conquered, Tom would be the last to fall, as he was the First. But can you really trust his judgement? He probably did not know what was spoken by Illuvatar to the Ainur, along with all the information we have which was revealed before Quenta Silmarillion. In fact, we may know more, as many lost tales were (fictionally) revealed to us by Ælfwine of England, who in turn got to know about them from Pengolodh.
If you don't count Ælfwine as lore, even then, the Council seemed to be as clueless as us when it came to what Tom was
Last edited by Haunt123; Jul 23 2012 at 02:08 PM.
Peaceguy
"With that, I ran back to Hobbiton, Land of the Noobs" - TSK
Noticed something interesting as I was doing some research for another thread.
This is Gandalf talking about Treebeard: "the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth."
That's from The Two Towers, Chapter 5, The White Rider.
Also in The Return of the King, Chapter 6, "Many Partings", Celeborn addresses Treebeard as "Eldest."
So if Treebeard is the oldest living thing? Than what is Tom, who was there before all others?
Perhaps something that cannot die?
That might fit with the whole idea of him being the personification of The Song.
Noticed something interesting as I was doing some research for another thread.
This is Gandalf talking about Treebeard: "the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth."
That's from The Two Towers, Chapter 5, The White Rider.
Also in The Return of the King, Chapter 6, "Many Partings", Celeborn addresses Treebeard as "Eldest."
So if Treebeard is the oldest living thing? Than what is Tom, who was there before all others?
Perhaps something that cannot die?
That might fit with the whole idea of him being the personification of The Song.
That's a commonly quoted "inconsistency" in LotR, both Tom and Fangorn are the "oldest".
Treebeard is the oldest Ent in ME, and I think your assessment that Treebeard is the oldest living thing in Middle Earth, i.e. his physical form and body is the oldest, is a safe enough conclusion.
It certainly does imply that Tom originates outside of "living" so to speak, like you say the personification of one of Tolkien's creation story concepts.
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