Thread: Agro management Single target!!!

Before ROI ı have no ısue with agro also with sıngle target or multible mobs, when ı start atack group, use 2 x F-S and then use my survive buff and then ı maıntaınce after a whıle with F-S again, and have no ıssue. but after ROI İT CHANGED

Now after Update 7, ı have not to much problem with multible mobs cause of EOB after 2 x EOB and maıntaince it,its good, but am realy have a big problem with single target.

I am not sure ıf ı have problem cause of my weapon: my weapon fist-spear treat legaciey at rank 4 treat up, so didnt give point, ı need max ıt for F-S skıll ?

let me give a ex: when we go LG repeatable generaly ın group champ or hunter get agro ıf start before me, and realy tooo hard to get sometimes4-5 maybe 6 F-S and also F-S-F-S and use masteries for quick agro,and mobs not care me:P.. but ıf we get 2 mobs everything change agro stack on me quickly, cause of EOB,

So we have no Challange lıke champs or guard and clıck and get agro, and dont want somene die quick cause of my fault, any advice and rotation for sıngle target.

PS:Before ROI ı read an article at Lorebook about tankıng guide for warden and ıt was wonderfull://and not work now..hope someone fix ıt

I know some people are morally opposed to it, but I use EoB for single target fights too (unless a CC friendly skill is needed) It is the best aggro generator of all the skills that we have and can be virtually spammed. Obviously it's overkill and just academic, but if you were to spam say 6 EoBs using BM and masteries really quick, mathematically you would be increasing your threat exponentially with each EoB. Assuming EoB increases your threat by X every 4 secs for 16 secs, by the sixth EoB, your threat would be increasing by 6X, every 4 secs, giving you 24X threat. I guarantee, that single mob will not forget about you so easily,

Once you've used a few EoB's and locked it on, you can use aggression and other leeches to maintain it. War cry, Peircing Blow, and Spear of Virtue are fine too for maintenance, but EoB is much better for the inital aggro lock. I also like to use Surety of Death for the DoT as well. IMHO, Post-ROI PB and WC aren't really that great, unless you have a group that waits a few seconds to do anything.

Don't be afraid to use EOB even if you're facing a single target. It is a very potent gambit, regardless of how many targets you are facing. Pop a couple of EOBs to start the fight, and you will have a very good aggro lock on everything near you.

EoB is definatley good for single or multiple mobs. If you want some variation for single target aggro I've had good results with SoV (2xpb) I've run LG dailies as well and if a champ or hunter pulls first it usually takes 1 or 2 SoV's to get aggro back, I then use aggresion or pb for maintnence after some self buffs if needed. Also you probably already know this but if not - tank in Determination stance with terrible visage slotted for max threat, for me tanking in recklessness or no stance makes it hard if not impossible to generate enough threat.

The problems you are having are exacerbated in the example you've given. When doing Limlight Dailies no one holds back and more often than not the Hunter or even RK will pull the mob as things die so quickly no one really cares.

While 2x Spear of Virtue should get you enough of a lead that Aggression can take care of the rest the problem with SoV is that its Melee. And from what you're saying you already have a mob running at someone else by the time you start off.

For that, and other reasons, EoB is king. Use it at the beginning of most fights

Battle Prep
EoB
Goad
EoB (Or Aggression by now)
BM (EoB or Aggression)

to lock whatever you need down and then take care of anything else. Like Self Heals, Defences or, when doing LG Dailies, straight up DPS.

EoB is best aggro generating gambit for 1-10 targets. The problem with ST threat is when you have to fetch 1 target from a group where the other tank has a lock down. Normally I try to avoid such a situation. If you use EoB you'll get all of um, if you use SoV it takes forever to peel it off. Normally I have champ FT the mob and then I can bombard it with EoBs and we're all sweet. Same goes for CC'd targets, you only have to overtake the healer threat which isn't that hard.

yeah try EOB for sıngle target also start 2 eob, 1. Battle preb then 2. one master, then F-S F-S then W-C then Mastery EOB yeah it works fine, but really somechamps dont uderstant we are not guard or champ have no quick charge skıll except 2.30 sec CD. , and today when ı try when champ start dps first I try 2 EOB and get agro, but if he start and do much damage really ı cant get agro do all of them ı have, so ıt may champs ıssue, also ı have a champ and whn ı get agro and thought ı cant handle ıt,::: rule:ıf agro on u stop dps let tank grab agro wait sec. then start dps::: ı do that and ebing ıre and no problem..

So ıf it happen ın ROF, lıke 1. boss turn on hunter and ı cant get with 2-3 gambit hunter die and ıt fail..F-S-F-S+F-S+F-S+F-S not work for grabing agro back? or f-s+f-s+f-s? normaly ı could get agro with 2 F-s agro back

Most would say to use Exultation Of Battle even if you're tanking a single target. Exultation Of Battle is our single most effective threat generating gambit available at this time. Logic would state that you could potentially just continuously fire off several EoB's in a row and you would be fine. If you're looking for a less linear approach you could toss a few other Gambits into the mix though. Piercing Strike and Spear Of Virtue are both good single target threat generating Gambits. If you slot the "Fist-Spear Gambit Threat Up" legacy and increase the rank to the maximum level then it will greatly improve the magnitude of the actual threat generated from the previously mentioned Gambits. Surety Of Death is also a decent threat Gambit and it also applies a bleed damage over time effect to the target. Generating threat on the target is only half the battle though. Do not forget about your threat leaches which work wonders on your ability to hold an enemy on you. Dance Of War leaches a moderate amount of threat and also applies a nice buff to your character. Conviction leaches a moderate amount of threat and also applies a heal over time effect to your character and any members of your Fellowship that are within range to receive the effect. I believe that Aggression was also buffed in Update 7 to be quite useful again. This is another threat leach that to my knowledge works slightly better then Conviction. Keep in mind that threat transfers are only useful after the members of your Fellowship have generated a certain amount of threat. There is no point in starting a fight with threat leaches if there is no threat to leach after all. My last word of advice would be to ensure that you have the Terrible Visage trait slotted. This will increase the threat generated by skills and gambits while in Determination Stance. Good luck!

my personal method of ST tanking is to grab initial aggro with an EOB +Goad, then SoV and BM SoV, then maybe a conviction and aggression and its pretty much yours forever just about

I agree with all above EoB is the best route. Did LL dailies the other day with 4 hunters and a champ and even with i did not start the fight I was able to pull the agro off them fairly quickly. My layout is pretty simple.

Battle Prep EoB
Goad for potency
EoB
Aggression and other gambits such as precise blow and buffing gambits till EoB runs out
Battle Memory Eob
Goad for potency
EoB
and just keep repeating. This will keep a constant 2 EoBs at all times. When i do this i never have issues. And I find that even though conviction seems more useful with the healing and everything but when you are in a tight spot with aggro Aggression is much much faster to pull off with mastery. And i find that when you have a mob mezzed stay away from it obviously and keep using EoB and still generate threat on it by using conviction. It will take some of the threat off the healer and your heals to the fellowship will generate threat on it. We are not guardians who can use AoE threats without breaking mezz. All our threats cause damage. Also when there are mezzed targets avoid using war cry. The range is too great and you will break any mezzes near you. The range of war cry(10.2 meters) is almost twice that of EoB(6.2 meters). Have fun! and use EoB during all tanking situations.

Quite an interesting thread, though the fact that EoB is superior to SoV even on ST seems a bit odd to me. Wouldn't it make sense to give SoV a ToT? It would be kinda nice if the 3-1 line behaved like the PA line just with threat(do a PA and get a short weak ToT, do a PS while that ToT still runs and it will upgrade the short ToT to a medium duration ToT, SoV will then upgrade that to a long duration ToT). Its not like i think we need more threat or something, but i kinda like using these escalating gambit lines, feels rewarding somehow. Besides spamming one threat gambit over and over because its "the best no matter the situation" is a bit ... repetetive.

Originally Posted by DrBrackman

Quite an interesting thread, though the fact that EoB is superior to SoV even on ST seems a bit odd to me. Wouldn't it make sense to give SoV a ToT? It would be kinda nice if the 3-1 line behaved like the PA line just with threat(do a PA and get a short weak ToT, do a PS while that ToT still runs and it will upgrade the short ToT to a medium duration ToT, SoV will then upgrade that to a long duration ToT). Its not like i think we need more threat or something, but i kinda like using these escalating gambit lines, feels rewarding somehow. Besides spamming one threat gambit over and over because its "the best no matter the situation" is a bit ... repetetive.

Exactly! Others have asked me why I wouldn't want to just use EoB exclusively. It seems kind of dumbed down if you do though. Sure I can start a fight with BP EoB... then Goad and pop off two more and I'll pretty much have agro the entire fight, but where's the fun in that? He he. I know what you mean though... I like the idea of scaling threat down a line. Do the first gambit... it gives a little threat. Do the next one in the line within the time limit and it gives another threat plus a bonus for having the first up. Just like the bleeds do.

Originally Posted by Elrendos

Exactly! Others have asked me why I wouldn't want to just use EoB exclusively. It seems kind of dumbed down if you do though. Sure I can start a fight with BP EoB... then Goad and pop off two more and I'll pretty much have agro the entire fight, but where's the fun in that? He he. I know what you mean though... I like the idea of scaling threat down a line. Do the first gambit... it gives a little threat. Do the next one in the line within the time limit and it gives another threat plus a bonus for having the first up. Just like the bleeds do.

Yeah though i doubt we would get a the extra threat frontloaded like the damage in PA line, besides that wouldn' t feel very wardenish. But a ToT that tiers up like those RK skills whatstheirname? I would like something that gets longer duration, to cut down on the skill spamming(ironically you already have to spam less if you use EoB instead of ST threat gambits).

I mean if you look at the design of the warden it seems strange that PB is the only ST gambit with a ToT. Should they do that it would be nice if they could give the line EoB is in a similar treatment. It would be nice if similar gambits in the same line had similar effects after all. It makes no sense that EoB is the end all be all of threat while FR has no thread component at all. Maybe we would have more competent wardens if the warden tanking gambit lines would make a little bit more sense .

Exultation of Battle is the Warden end all threat gambit. The only time to really use single target aggro is when you have CCd mobs around you in an AoE environment where breaking said CC will kill you. Some may argue that SoV is better than EoB for upfront aggro with battle prep and battle memory you can really fire out EoBs in machine gun style.

Originally Posted by DrBrackman

Yeah though i doubt we would get a the extra threat frontloaded like the damage in PA line, besides that wouldn' t feel very wardenish. But a ToT that tiers up like those RK skills whatstheirname? I would like something that gets longer duration, to cut down on the skill spamming(ironically you already have to spam less if you use EoB instead of ST threat gambits).

I mean if you look at the design of the warden it seems strange that PB is the only ST gambit with a ToT. Should they do that it would be nice if they could give the line EoB is in a similar treatment. It would be nice if similar gambits in the same line had similar effects after all. It makes no sense that EoB is the end all be all of threat while FR has no thread component at all. Maybe we would have more competent wardens if the warden tanking gambit lines would make a little bit more sense .

The problem with tiered threat gambits is twofold:

1. It would mean we would have to slowly tier up threat. Unfortunately the increasing trend of class design for DPS in this game does not facilitate this. Pre-RoI Runekeepers would be the best example of slowly building up DPS, but in the current implementation they can ramp up their DoT's relatively quickly. Hunters are even worse with a single skill to temporarily hide on a 3-5 minute cooldown. For DPS to fully open they would have to give the warden a lead greater than the current 3-4 seconds.

2. In the event that it does tier up, it would probably end up being rather like the SoD evade buff. Yes, we can tier it up via 323, but 2 x SoD does the job better because SoD was meant to refresh the buff for maintenance and also yields more threat. Having threat tier up merely takes the somewhat flexible threat rotation and makes spamming the top tier gambit standard (arguable the same situation as now).

Neither option is really an improvement to our quality of life. They lead to issues in the threat v dps meta-game, take up additional resources in masteries and most importantly take up time to build up our survivability.

Originally Posted by taner_yurttas_67

So ıf it happen ın ROF, lıke 1. boss turn on hunter and ı cant get with 2-3 gambit hunter die and ıt fail..F-S-F-S+F-S+F-S+F-S not work for grabing agro back? or f-s+f-s+f-s? normaly ı could get agro with 2 F-s agro back

No, they don't work as well anymore. I don't know what you mean by "F-S" (Fi-Sp or Fi-Sh) Either way, they (PB or WC) don't generate as much aggro as they used to Pre-RoI. As stated above, use EoB to lock them onto you, then whatever else you want to maintain aggro.

Originally Posted by WhimsicalPacifist

The problem with tiered threat gambits is twofold:

1. It would mean we would have to slowly tier up threat. Unfortunately the increasing trend of class design for DPS in this game does not facilitate this. Pre-RoI Runekeepers would be the best example of slowly building up DPS, but in the current implementation they can ramp up their DoT's relatively quickly. Hunters are even worse with a single skill to temporarily hide on a 3-5 minute cooldown. For DPS to fully open they would have to give the warden a lead greater than the current 3-4 seconds.

2. In the event that it does tier up, it would probably end up being rather like the SoD evade buff. Yes, we can tier it up via 323, but 2 x SoD does the job better because SoD was meant to refresh the buff for maintenance and also yields more threat. Having threat tier up merely takes the somewhat flexible threat rotation and makes spamming the top tier gambit standard (arguable the same situation as now).

Neither option is really an improvement to our quality of life. They lead to issues in the threat v dps meta-game, take up additional resources in masteries and most importantly take up time to build up our survivability.

You kinda assume that the threat of the top tier gambits would be lowered to compensate, which is not what i meant. All gambits would do the exact same threat as now, the tier up ToT would be in ADDITION to that. The fact that it would be unsuited as a threat snatch tool is exactly the point of it, its supposed to be a slow rampup of threat, going with the warden theme and stuff you know?

Also there was an actual intention behind that whole idea besides just having a tier system on our ST threat gambits for the lulz of it, the idea being that ST threat gambits should be better at single target threat than EoB. And im personally of the mind that frontloaded threat(like SoV currently has) is the guardians domain and probsbly already at the limit of what the devs are willing to concede to wardens. So the only way left to gain more threat would be adding a ToT to it, but since ToTs of the same tier stack(unlike HoTs or DoTs) i thought it would be nice to use the tier system to encourage using using more than one ST threat gambit.

And yeah, this is not intented as some sort of fix or anything to make us better at tanking boss XY. Just bringing a bit more sense into gambit lines and maybe giving us proper tanking tools pre level 60 so that wardens don't fail so much when they try to learn it.

Originally Posted by DrBrackman

You kinda assume that the threat of the top tier gambits would be lowered to compensate, which is not what i meant. All gambits would do the exact same threat as now, the tier up ToT would be in ADDITION to that. The fact that it would be unsuited as a threat snatch tool is exactly the point of it, its supposed to be a slow rampup of threat, going with the warden theme and stuff you know?

Also there was an actual intention behind that whole idea besides just having a tier system on our ST threat gambits for the lulz of it, the idea being that ST threat gambits should be better at single target threat than EoB. And im personally of the mind that frontloaded threat(like SoV currently has) is the guardians domain and probsbly already at the limit of what the devs are willing to concede to wardens. So the only way left to gain more threat would be adding a ToT to it, but since ToTs of the same tier stack(unlike HoTs or DoTs) i thought it would be nice to use the tier system to encourage using using more than one ST threat gambit.

And yeah, this is not intented as some sort of fix or anything to make us better at tanking boss XY. Just bringing a bit more sense into gambit lines and maybe giving us proper tanking tools pre level 60 so that wardens don't fail so much when they try to learn it.

Hmm, warden tanking could be broken at the lower levels, but a large number of the gambits got shifted around so I really don't know. Current threat is balanced vs the highest aggro generators (hunters with 1st agers and ungodly amounts of agility/phys mastery) which makes additional threat on top of our current state rather overpowered.

I'm sorry if I seem rather ambivalent towards the concept but with current rotations are very tight on time and masteries. For a really good rotation at level 75, I use 2-3 loose permutations of 15s each that eat up all the masteries. If threat were to tier, I would battle-prep the top tier gambit out of combat and then follow up with a Goad into two of the masteried version. It gives me top tier threat, the top tiered ToT maintenance buff, is efficient on time and costs the minimum in masteries. The problem is it wouldn't be any different than it is now, unless top-tier gambits were nerfed and lower ones buffed to goad the warden into using them sequentially.

Originally Posted by WhimsicalPacifist

Hmm, warden tanking could be broken at the lower levels, but a large number of the gambits got shifted around so I really don't know. Current threat is balanced vs the highest aggro generators (hunters with 1st agers and ungodly amounts of agility/phys mastery) which makes additional threat on top of our current state rather overpowered.

I'm sorry if I seem rather ambivalent towards the concept but with current rotations are very tight on time and masteries. For a really good rotation at level 75, I use 2-3 loose permutations of 15s each that eat up all the masteries. If threat were to tier, I would battle-prep the top tier gambit out of combat and then follow up with a Goad into two of the masteried version. It gives me top tier threat, the top tiered ToT maintenance buff, is efficient on time and costs the minimum in masteries. The problem is it wouldn't be any different than it is now, unless top-tier gambits were nerfed and lower ones buffed to goad the warden into using them sequentially.

Im sorry, but i completely disagree.

Let me get this straight. You think SoV doing more threat would be imbalanced, but EoB doing more threat than SoV is fine ... Why? Because it can hit up to 10 targets and also leeches morale? Also lets not pretend that wardens are loosing sleep over their aggro generation, its extremely high and we need it that way because we lack the tools other tanks have to modify perceived threat and whatnot.

Also im not AT ALL convinced that threat is as closely balanced as you think, just think of the state PB was in for years! Is it that much of a stretch to think out ST threat tools(not our single target threat) are lacking? All i want is to give us a reason to use actual ST threat gambits against single targets ...

Also i used the tier system of the PA line as example, you brought up the DoW mechanic. PB(t1 ToT), PS(upgrade to t2 ToT) and finally SoV(upgrade to t3 ToT). If thats not fast enough(remember this is a ToT anyway) you just do what you do now, but atleast it would be the exception and not the only gambit from that line you used.

That being said im not married to that idea or anything, if you have an better idea to make that line semi useful im all ears.

P.S.: Sub 50 warden tanking in anything with more than 3 man is a total mess, they actually took gambits away from them they already had and placed them way higher in levels. Tanking with WC and PB wasn't optimal even before the changes, but now that they are nerfed? On the upside survivability has gone through the roof, now if those poor low level wardens could just make the mobs hit them ... SoV and SoD are 46+ and EoB is now level 60. And yeah im more than a little bit unhappy that such a crucial tanking gambit does not only come so late, but that there is actually nothing in the gambits before it that even hints that a gambit with such a mechanic(multi target ToT) might exist!

I am appriciated for your reply, realy realy works for me.. now have no problem agro on single target though, EOB win..

BP EOB, then EOB "quick mastery" realy super work..and if any dpser staart dps..no worry..can realy get back quick..

another fresh question.. if in my group or raid..ther is another tank, and ı need grab agro quick,for example another warden built agro with EOB, what ı need to do for get agro back, ı saw that usıng multible EOB not work agro back from a tank class

Originally Posted by taner_yurttas_67

I am appriciated for your reply, realy realy works for me.. now have no problem agro on single target though, EOB win..

BP EOB, then EOB "quick mastery" realy super work..and if any dpser staart dps..no worry..can realy get back quick..

another fresh question.. if in my group or raid..ther is another tank, and ı need grab agro quick,for example another warden built agro with EOB, what ı need to do for get agro back, ı saw that usıng multible EOB not work agro back from a tank class

If there was a situation where the Warden needed to drop agro to you then you should use EoB followed by some strong single target (SoV) against the mob. The other Warden should be using Deflection though to dump some threat. Takes two to tango. Use Defiant Challenge if it's up and just go to town on threat for that few seconds it is up. All the while the other Warden should know to slow down on threat if they're getting to a point that they need to drop agro and start using Deflection.

Originally Posted by Elrendos

The other Warden should be using Deflection though to dump some threat.

This is key. Wardens can outaggro anyone, which includes other wardens. If one warden has been building as much threat as possible, then unless the second warden has been doing the same, they will be too far behind to catch up on their own. The first warden needs to reduce their threat and meet you in the middle.

Originally Posted by Nydorewyth

This is key. Wardens can outaggro anyone, which includes other wardens. If one warden has been building as much threat as possible, then unless the second warden has been doing the same, they will be too far behind to catch up on their own. The first warden needs to reduce their threat and meet you in the middle.

Exactly. There isn't a need to be producing tons of agro when you are in a multi-tanking scenario. If you're ahead of the DPS/Healers in your group in terms of threat then stop doing threat and help the group with other stuff. That way you're not ahead of the other tank by a mile and a half. Voice chat really helps. I had a vision of two Wardens tanking and they would communicate how many EoBs they were doing. lol. The main tank keeping ahead by a few more. In theory this worked in my head. Ha ha.

I dont want make another thread thats why want contınue thats one, hope someone who focus this thread advice,

Weapon legacy: Fiest-spear gmabit treat up, ı thought this only ıncrease pb,ps AND Sov, but some told me ıt ıncerease EOB too, cause eob start Fiest-spear-...., so its true??

any idea?

It increases the threat of every single fist-spear gambit. Yes, it is a lot better than the several legacies wardens had before for these skills.

Originally Posted by Vandervahn

It increases the threat of every single fist-spear gambit. Yes, it is a lot better than the several legacies wardens had before for these skills.

so ıt means, not increase EOB, right?

Have a look which are the first two builders in EoB