Thread: Rescent OOC debate about RP and other problems

I don't know if any of you were present at yesterdays debate on the OOC but it was talked about moving it here for a wider discussion and to get more views.
Over the last week or so, I have seen more and more people complaining about the lack of RP on our once, packed, server. And also it has come to our attention more None-RP players and clowns coming in and ruining it for everyone. It was also discussed how much the Lore is broken Ie; Character names, Kinship names or going against facts from the books etc etc;..We also discussed the lack of help from the GM's when tickets are sent. Reporting Lore-breaking names and kins and also harrasment/spam reports go unanswered.

After a long discussion the idea came about of start a petition for changes to be made and for more policing of the server to be put into place. They were as follows.

- Upon creating an account, there should be a ticky-box or some sort of sellection as to wether you RP or not, and also link some sort of test and/or guidline to RP. If you do NOT choose RP are you given a list of servers which do not involve RP. This seemed like a very popular notion among the OOC. It will organise neatly who does and does not RP.

- Another idea which was brough forward was a 24 hour review of character creations. When you make a new character, you fill in the basics of your character. Name; Location; About them etc etc; And if they do not meet with the lore requirments you must change them..I think having a kin called "Super Hesiter Boss Guy" just proves the lack of policing and care going into our server.

- Another was for tickets to be able to be sent by anyone...I personally think it is unfair that VIP's only get to send tickets..F2P have problems too..

- A little one was also brought up on the hairstyles of the characters and how even they break the lore...for instance short hair on an female elf. And how short hair in general never came about until the 1930's...

This was just a few of the idea brought up on this, if you have any opinions, ideas, or just want to have a good moan feel free to reply. Sadly I think there has been to much lack of care, people have already left because of the childness and something needs to be done.

An opt-in tickbox asking whether you want to play on an RP server (meaning that you at least respect other people's RP even if you don't do it yourself) is a good idea.

The rest is not going to happen, realistically. Partly because it involves too much human work by Turbine, which can't be justified for cost reasons, and partly because it imposes restrictions on gameplay that not everybody, even on an RP server, would be happy to sign up to.

I never much thought about the short hair, but I have to say I'm glad it's in the game. Why? It gives the perfect style for a character who must pretend to be male - say, in order to take up arms.

*The dwarf steps forth raising his hand and awaits silence before commencing what sounds like a prepared speech.
Bregir Stoutheart, at your service.

Originally Posted by Abellinda

I don't know if any of you were present at yesterdays debate on the OOC but it was talked about moving it here for a wider discussion and to get more views.

And views you will have. None of the following is directed at anyone in particular, but rather general observations, that I personally hope at least will find some listening ears. I shall address each point in turn with my honest, unmasked opinions.

Over the last week or so, I have seen more and more people complaining about the lack of RP on our once, packed, server.

First, let me claim one thing: There has always been fluctuations in the amount of RP, especially around summer and the exam season(s). And there always will be.
Second, personally, I fail to see the decline. Events are going, people meet in strange, as well as ordinary places and my user-channels are filled with old and new names.
Of course, if people complain, its because they think there is a problem, but such problems often exist mainly as castles of the mind. If people look for "Lack of RP" they will find it. It's all back to the classic "In my time, I rode a bike to school 15 miles EACH WAY every day - in 3 feet of snow!!!".
Imagine if all those people discussing in OOC instead had stopped discussing and started RP'ing, they could probably alone create more RP than they had ever hoped for. Every change starts with oneself.
Especially in terms of RP - RP only exists where players take on their role and play it out. (Uhhh, surprise!!) NEVER complain about the lack of RP. RP instead. Obviously, there are many people looking for it - otherwise you would not have had that discussion. Three RP'ers can change the appearance of Bree in an instant. Imagine how the evening would have been different if the OOC instead had been filled with "Anyone up for some RP? "

And also it has come to our attention more None-RP players and clowns coming in and ruining it for everyone.

I really never experienced this. But maybe I am not looking for it.
No one can bully you, if you do not let them. I know it can seem hard to do, but the human mind is a wonderful thing. What you concentrate on grows - so if you concentrate on the good RP, it will become more obvious - while the idiot will become less so if you ignore him/her, eventually to fade and disappear completely.. And really - what is the worst thing someone can do to you? It is, afterall, only a game.

As I see it, ignoring idiots has two effects.
1) It avoids you getting annoyed. (Really, it does!)
2) The #¤#%& quickly loose interest.

If someone blatantly harass, put them on ignore and send a ticket.

It was also discussed how much the Lore is broken Ie; Character names, Kinship names or going against facts from the books etc etc;..

Ignore what you do not like - its everyone's right to say no to any RP. As it is anyone's right to play as they please, as long as they do not break the terms of use. About names: Turn of floating names and put those people on ignore, which names you simply cannot stand to see in your chat box, and the problem is gone.
Again, report AngelPWNER66 and leave Barimor to enjoy his game. (Even though it is ALMOST BOROMIR!!!)

We also discussed the lack of help from the GM's when tickets are sent. Reporting Lore-breaking names and kins and also harrasment/spam reports go unanswered.

Do they? Do you know this? Are you sure the culprits, who (maybe because he was new to rp and did not know better, but felt his character was really sad) threw the cry emote 6 times in the Pony, did not get a warning by a GM? Or that the GM found your ticket was intolerant and unworthy of attention? With some of the points presented here, I fear some people send far to many tickets. Which of course leaves too much work for the GM's.
I have played on this server for 4 years or so, and I have only ever sent one ticket complaining about another player. Maybe I am too tolerant, but I am certain some suffer from the opposite sickness.

After a long discussion the idea came about of start a petition for changes to be made and for more policing of the server to be put into place. They were as follows.

Policing NEVER brought down crime rates - and it is NOT going to be any different in the game.

- Upon creating an account, there should be a ticky-box or some sort of sellection as to wether you RP or not, and also link some sort of test and/or guidline to RP. If you do NOT choose RP are you given a list of servers which do not involve RP. This seemed like a very popular notion among the OOC. It will organise neatly who does and does not RP.

Give people a pop up when they first start and chose a RP server. Make sure everyone knows they are playing on one, but I see no need to exclude non-RP'ers. They are humans/dwarves/hobbits/elves too! And some of them may see RP later and start liking it. Exclusivity will lead to demise.

- Another idea which was brough forward was a 24 hour review of character creations. When you make a new character, you fill in the basics of your character. Name; Location; About them etc etc; And if they do not meet with the lore requirments you must change them..I think having a kin called "Super Hesiter Boss Guy" just proves the lack of policing and care going into our server.

Yay, bureaucracy... Forget it - I don't want anyone to "approve" my characters, nor anyone else's. That will be done through RP, and I will ignore or avoid those I do not "believe" in. You should do the same. Anyways, who should be the judge? This would bring nothing good anywhere.
And why you even take the time to care about some b***heads kin name is beyond me. I am quite sure a ticket would help, though. If it really is such a problem.

- Another was for tickets to be able to be sent by anyone...I personally think it is unfair that VIP's only get to send tickets..F2P have problems too..

Obviously. But for now, the f2p'ers can just find a friendly VIP and ask them to do it.

- A little one was also brought up on the hairstyles of the characters and how even they break the lore...for instance short hair on an female elf. And how short hair in general never came about until the 1930's...

So you lived in ME? Or in Europe in the middle ages? I will claim that no one knows about this. Short hair is a practical thing in some occupations. And in the dark ages, a miller's wife would have no room to think of how her hair followed the current fashion, if that meant a risk of getting her hair stuck in the gears and her head squashed to mince-meat...

This was just a few of the idea brought up on this, if you have any opinions, ideas, or just want to have a good moan feel free to reply. Sadly I think there has been to much lack of care, people have already left because of the childness and something needs to be done.

I believe my post fall in the "moan"-category...
But honestly, I find most of these points petty - unimportant and easily ignored. If they are the kind of things people are complaining about, its no wonder they feel the world is collapsing around them. I think some people work themselves up to see problems everywhere. Instead of talking and complaining, try to do something about it.

Such a low degree of tolerance seems to me to be a much bigger problem for our RP community than any amount of jerks. Most empires fall from internal pressure, and if our community cannot be friendly, welcoming and tolerant, how are we to:
1) Improve the quality of RP?
2) Improve the quantity of RP?
3) Improve the number of RP'ers?

"But you cannot be friendly to everyone and his harassing, idiot brother!!" Really? Why not?

I think this old community guide strikes a good tone towards tolerance:
http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/A_%22...e_to_role-play

I could go on forever, but I better leave it at this.

Bregir

*The dwarf wipes his brow and steps back to his chair, sitting down with a sigh of relief.*

I agree with the op on this and i also think the tick-box is a good idea.

When i first joined Lotro i picked the first server that was suggested to me and i played on that quite happily for a couple of months until i decided to switch to Laurelin due to the prospect of roleplaying, being more focused in lore and also the fact it was in the UK.

The fact that most new players join the server that is suggested by Turbine could be a reason why there seems to be a growing number of players on Laurelin messing about with no respect for others.

I dont know if Laurelin is among the servers that get suggested to new players but if it is then maybe it should be removed(from being suggested)

The only thing i can see Turbine doing to help us in this respect is to have a special warning page that appears when someone chooses to join the Laurelin server.
This could let people know that they should only join it if they have a prior knowledge of the lore and to behave themselves and expect to be outcast pretty quickly if they dont respect this.
Of course this could also attract the griefers even more so.

Wow..I never read such a big opinion in all my life. Thank you for addressing each point in turn....
I find myself agreeing with you on most of the points, yes you may say simply add them to ignore and then if needs be send a ticket but that is what the problem is. I (and I don't know about other people) find myself blocking someone new everyday. I would do what you say and just..carry on and be happy. But some of the things that go on are dreadful. I know you say some of these people are just "new" but even new people have some sort of limit or sense...And regarding sending tickets. I know they get ignored when the next day..or a few days down the line, the same person is there again, doing the same horrid things.

For a better example. A well known Troll, whom admits to being banned 7 times in the past, keeps coming back, proving that no matter how many people reported said person. He still comes back..Trolling, spamming, annoying everyone. And I know other people sent tickets because it got that bad people just..stopped in their tracks to try and sort it out *Waves hand* Anyway...Yes, I ignore people but it does not always work!

You raise some good points and suggestion Abelinda. But to much strict rules can hit both ways I think, as both Sarlinspellweaver and Bregir mentioned.
During the years I have been on Laurelin, I have learned to "filter out" bad RP, (or as you say clowns and non_RP that are only around to ruin). I do not even hit the ignore-button on players anymore, as Bregir I have sort of learned to focus a lot on those I want to RP with. Those who try to intefer in silly ways, are non-exsistant when I immerse..
Besides I also try to go to places or events where I know good RP will exsist, and the server is flowing with events at the moment.

The danger is to spiral into a state where you actually focus to much on others bad RP and then get dishearted by it... The best way is to avvoid that.
Be happy, ignore people if you have to, and find likeminded friends to Rp with or RP other places

Originally Posted by Abellinda

- A little one was also brought up on the hairstyles of the characters and how even they break the lore...for instance short hair on an female elf. And how short hair in general never came about until the 1930's...

In my experience, short hair *always* comes before long hair. It's a fundamental principle of growth.

What Bregir said. The last few weeks have seen some excellent RP events, with lots of folk attending, but no "Twinklebums" or would-be event spoilers. I'd only add to Bregir's post that there are certain places where the RP can be, well, let's say 'variable'. I rarely visit the Prancing Pony, for example, because more often than not there's nothing happening that I want to get involved in. That doesn't mean that folk are misbehaving, just that their style of roleplay doesn't mix with mine. So I stay away, and roleplay with kin, allies, and friends. And there. perhaps is the answer to the OP and others moaning on the OOC channel - join an RP-ing kinship, and see just how much RPing does go on, and how good it can be!

I think that some folk roll on an RP server then stand around and want to know why there is no RP. I'm an RP'er but I don't belong to an RP kin (just server rule compliant) so unless I actively seek RP it isn't just going to wander up to me. Do I wish there was more and in more obvious places ? Yes I do but that brings its own problems for people doing that with potential disruption by bunny hoppers or whatever. I do think that some people need to try a little harder to get involved and not just expect RP community to sweep you up if you stand around a bit and have a /smoke.

The RP in the Prancing Pony varies from good solid stuff solid to the downright weird and much of it leaves me cold so I tend to look elsewhere. I have attended many of the major events and regular gatherings in one guise or another and had some really good fun as much as anything else because it shows you that there are good numbers RP folk there are out there.

I do agree with the idea of requiring people to click through an extra barrier of character creation to make them aware of the extra requirements so they at least can't say that they weren't warned.

As for some of the specifics of people's RP grievances, I think you need to strike a careful balance. We all know what names are so jarringly terrible that they simply shouldn't ever be allowed but there are a whole range of names in between that are at best a subject for debate. 99 people may think that a name is ok but the 100th person drags an item of lore out to back up their argument and is utterly convinced that it renders the name invalid whereas the other 99 just think meh, *shrug*. I would urge people to keep reporting the terrible names because nobody will do anything about it unless you do, but save that as a matter of last resort not for some minor lore triviality. Does that name sound like a man of Rohan ? No, Does it sound like a broadly generic human name ? Yes. Fine by me then, we have far bigger problems than this.

Personally I really couldn't care less about kinship names provided that they are not offensive. I don't treat them as remotely IC unless someone decides to tell me that they are IC part of an organisation called whatever.

Short hair ? Again really not bothered to be honest. Once again, we have far bigger issues. Also historically there were many reasons why people may have had short hair including shaving hair off to remove lice, not just as a fashion statement. Quoting dates in our world when hair was short/long seems fairly pointless IMHO. This is Middle Earth. Is it so inconceivable that a female may have shorter hair for whatever reason ?

I strongly disagree with the tick box idea and the idea that you MUST rp in order to join an RP server. Some of us do not RP but we're Tolkien fans which means we like being in an atmosphere where names adhere to lore and there's general respect for the lore. I don't rp (I've had the occassional short exchange with others but it's rare) but I still like being immersed in the environment most of the time. That would be much more difficult on other servers. If you really wanted only people who rped on Laurelin and got rid of all those that don't, you'd find your server a heck of a lot more empty. The vast majority of the people I know on Laurelin do not rp but we still respect the lore, others, and are friendly people.

The idea is far too exclusionary. How do you think you're going to attract any new people if you immediately shut them out? Seems quite unfriendly.

Originally Posted by Bregir.Stoutheart

But honestly, I find most of these points petty - unimportant and easily ignored. If they are the kind of things people are complaining about, its no wonder they feel the world is collapsing around them. I think some people work themselves up to see problems everywhere. Instead of talking and complaining, try to do something about it.

Such a low degree of tolerance seems to me to be a much bigger problem for our RP community than any amount of jerks. Most empires fall from internal pressure, and if our community cannot be friendly, welcoming and tolerant, <snip>

Well said.

Note; The author of the following ramblings has had a long day at work, please dont hold this against him or his grammar.

I dont agree with the idea of making RP a requirement to play on an RP server.
When i first joined lotro, i came to Laurelin because i liked giving my characters a "Proper" name and try immerse myself within the world. Now, i spend the majority of my time here RP'ing at either the Pony, or with Durins folk.

From an outside point of view, I'd be put off joining if it was a requirement too. I imagine it'd feel almost intimidating to those looking to get involved but without any experience.

As for what people've said about the RP at the Pony, it's very varied. Generally, the more you put into it the more you get back. The other night i started out just standing and having a /smoke. but eventually picked up conversation with one of the musicians, which lead to sharing a story or two, and ending with a few jokes and an ale or two. Ok sure, it's nothing special RP-wise, but it's fun. I personally find these kinds of characters/RP moments refreshing as 90% of Man who visit the Pony play as Aragorn.

As for events, I manage to get quite a few a week though most of which are through my kin. Though things like Green Dragon Fridays are a lovely break from the 'norm'. If people want to start up more, regular or not, events, i'd be happy to get involed with them as i'm sure many others feel the same way.

In fairness, I don't think the suggestion for a pop-up for Laurelin was intended to be a "you must RP" warning, but rather an explicit way of letting folks know that this is a server which values particular kinds of behaviour - including the many people like yourself Lothirieth who contribute to the friendly and helpful atmosphere in Laurelin.

That's not to scorn the other servers, by the way, just to note that if Laurelin doesn't suit a person's game-play, there are many many other servers available that might.

Originally Posted by Lothirieth

I strongly disagree with the tick box idea and the idea that you MUST rp in order to join an RP server. Some of us do not RP but we're Tolkien fans which means we like being in an atmosphere where names adhere to lore and there's general respect for the lore. I don't rp (I've had the occassional short exchange with others but it's rare) but I still like being immersed in the environment most of the time.

I have many in-game friends who don't RP but who are always respectful of those who do and always abide by the rules in the relevant channels. My game experience game would be much poorer for their absence. I think what I'd like to see though would be a re-iteration the rules that are in place rather than a wish-list of an RP'ers ideal world. This would include appropriate names, /Say chat etc. It would do no harm IMHO to remind people that there are slightly different expectations on the only specifically designated English language RP server.

I would however rather have a few compromises on my ideal server rules and have a decent sized community than have a largely empty server with consistent high-quality RP if you can ever actually find someone out there to RP with. Our server was created because of pressure and interest in having an RP server. There was a clear demand and so demand got its way. This needs to pay its way long term though and if RP folk cannot balance 'in an ideal world' aspirations with a dose of pragmatism then it will not get the numbers of folk on the designated RP servers and games companies look very hard at numbers.

That does NOT mean that we have to accept players called 'ninjaboy' or accept griefing of RP events or people discussing the Champions League final in /say in the auction house.. but it does mean that we may have to live with seeing a female elf with short hair

To me, most things mentioned by OP are insignificant, trivial details. Short hair? Sure... but why not then add cows, chickens and a few pigs as well so farmers can be real farmers and not just produce crops. Have the butcher profession added on top of that. Or how about sailors and ships?

As the old story goes: "There are two wolves in everybody's heart. The evil one and the good one. The one that you feed the most, will win." Live and let live. Instead of focussing on what's bad, learn to see the raw gems that are hidden on this server and enjoy the great rp that you can find everywhere (even in the Pony!). It really just takes a slight change of mindset, nothing more. And if you're still bothered, well we don't have an ignore button for nothing!

I wouldn't mind a small popup stating that you are about to enter a rp server, and therefor some things might be slightly different (eg naming and ooc speech in the chat). But this should not be a warning to scare off players. Especially newcomers to roleplay should find themselves be welcomed with open arms, regardless if they're making huge mistakes. We all started to roleplay at some point and we were all happy with the help we got back then. So don't hit the ignore button right away or send a ticket, but ask politely first and make a few suggestions.

I do get that some people can get on your nerves, especially when they keep on trolling - I've met the 7 times banned guy - and nothing seems to happen to them. But in the end, it is what YOU make of the game. So YOU decide whether to let the 7 times banned guy ruin your gamenight, or simply ignore him and go on having a good time.

The above idea's in the first post would mean the servers death if they were set into motion. We need new players in the server, roleplayers or not. Personally i hate all the stupid names as much as the next roleplayer but bringing in silly rules won't help at all. In fact this entire thread wreaks of pomp and must look very unwelcoming to any new players that are considering joining the server.

I wonder if the next step you would want implemented is player voting? X votes and the game kicks you automatically?

Honestly, if people can't be bothered to read the EULA regarding the special rules of RP server Laurelin (yes, we are in fact the only one truly named as an RP server), then simply ignore them, don't go raiding with them, don't help them through instances - .Leave them alone and leave their game alone.

That way word will spread, that it will be a pretty lonesome existence on Laurelin, unless you get involved in the RP.

As to lore breaking and clowning around... *shrug* I have seen purple eyed levitating elves, people claiming to sell elven contraceptives (when elves revere all children and would never even invent much less share such a thing), I have even seen repeated attempts at mixed-race relationships, and and and....

Those kind of RP players simply go to my ignore list of people I won't interact with, nor am I interested in their viewpoints.
You cannot stay completely true to lore, as the game itself prevents it (book quests for instance.)

Many things are excused by claiming it is Roleplay, but honestly, playing an elf myself, if we were to be totally true to lore, then let's see:

Hobbits never venture further than between Bree and the Shire, and according to the books, the traffic between Bree and the Shire has trickled to zero when LotR takes place.
Should all hobbits be forced to stay either in Bree or the Shire, and don't you dare go to Rivendell ICly?

I think not.

Noldo elves.... hmmm the Noldo departed to Valinor after the sundering... should all Noldo elves be shunned as lorebreakers?

I think not.

I could go on, but in my honest opinion, as long as the RP is well thought out, there is a plausible explanation, and it is interesting, then run with it. It is a game.

Noldo elves.... hmmm the Noldo departed to Valinor after the sundering... should all Noldo elves be shunned as lorebreakers?

Then Gildor Inglorion (and his company), Glorfindel and Galadriel are not there, in Middle Earth, by the time frame of the game?

As for the thread itself, I pretty much agree with Achazia. I tend to ignore clowns, avoid usual clown filled areas, and focus on RP'ing with people I know, usually from my kinship or through open events from kinships I know that do interesting things. From time to time I'll take a lower level character to check if anything interesting is going on in the usual hubs - like the Prancing Pony -, but very rarely I see anything interesting enough to stay.

Also, I must confess I have not been so much for RPíng these last months.

As for interaction with the rest of the community, well, there are days I like to RP, and days I don´t feel in the mood. So those days I appreciate that we have a player base big enough to go raid Draigoch or the Watcher, or any other interesting place. So I feel fine with them on our server.

Kalluin, at least answer to my complete statement instead of pulling things out of context. Thank you.

Otherwise you're just flaming.

Originally Posted by Bregir.Stoutheart

So you lived in ME? Or in Europe in the middle ages? I will claim that no one knows about this. Short hair is a practical thing in some occupations. And in the dark ages, a miller's wife would have no room to think of how her hair followed the current fashion, if that meant a risk of getting her hair stuck in the gears and her head squashed to mince-meat...

Hmm. Then I will claim you did no research

There's a reason why traditional women's hairstyles right across Europe feature braids so prominently. All someone like a miller's wife would have to do would be to braid her hair, pin the braid(s) up out of the way and wear a headscarf (she'd need to do that anyway because of the dust) and there'd be no hair dangling to be caught up in anything. Alternatively, she could just put her hair up in a bun - a few pins and again, job done. Then there was another popular option, a hairnet.

And apparently in medieval Iceland there was actually a law against women cutting their hair short

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

Hmm. Then I will claim you did no research

There's a reason why traditional women's hairstyles right across Europe feature braids so prominently. All someone like a miller's wife would have to do would be to braid her hair, pin the braid(s) up out of the way and wear a headscarf (she'd need to do that anyway because of the dust) and there'd be no hair dangling to be caught up in anything. Alternatively, she could just put her hair up in a bun - a few pins and again, job done. Then there was another popular option, a hairnet.

And apparently in medieval Iceland there was actually a law against women cutting their hair short

*rage and flame*

Ok, ok - but I will still claim that some women, sometimes wore their hair short. Not many, and not all - but some. For reasons we may not know. In any case - My point was really that if THAT is what puts people off, I think they should be careful going outside their doors, for fear of meeting the realities of the world.

Best regards
Bregir

Originally Posted by Abellinda

A little one was also brought up on the hairstyles of the characters and how even they break the lore...for instance short hair on an female elf. And how short hair in general never came about until the 1930's...

If they wanted the female elves to have long hair, they would've gave them a hairstyle that the length of their hair is to their waist or something. They don't live in the 1930's, so it doesn't matter. You know, if I was some elf carrying around a spear, javelin, and shield, waiting for something to attack me, I'm fairly certain I'd want my hair short.

Just saying. I'm also sure Turbine knew what they were doing when they chose the hairstyles.


~Tourmalien Bracegirdle, Friend

Originally Posted by Bregir.Stoutheart

In any case - My point was really that if THAT is what puts people off, I think they should be careful going outside their doors, for fear of meeting the realities of the world.

But we're not talking about the realities of the modern world, are we? Having modernity intrude on fantasy is seldom a good thing.

Originally Posted by Tassolahoff

I'm also sure Turbine knew what they were doing when they chose the hairstyles.

Yes, but I imagine they'd be thinking of what non-RPing players would want, because there's an awful lot more of them. So that's not necessarily such a good thing for RP.

You know, if I was some elf carrying around a spear, javelin, and shield, waiting for something to attack me, I'm fairly certain I'd want my hair short.

As long as her hair wasn't so long it impeded her wearing a helmet or otherwise got in the way she'd be okay, so there'd be no particular need for a female Elf to cut her hair short.

Besides, did you forget Eowyn had long hair? She seemed to manage to find something to do with that, other than cutting it off.

Theoden has long hair in braids, in the book. And while we're on the subject of fighting with spear and shield, in Greek legend Achilles wore his hair long (it was considered particularly manly, at the time). So it's not as if the guys would necessarily have short hair, either.

Short hair or long hair, each to their taste.

But yes, in the european middle-age women wore their hair braided or short OR beneath a headwear. To wear open long hair out on the streets was especially in central europe a sign of prostitution.

Short hair goes a lot better if one is a soldier or someone who works like the example given in a mill: The hair won't get caught beneath the rings of the chainmail on is wearing, or doesn't fly you in the face when heavy wind comes up. Neither would it come into any sorts of mechanical devices, if short.
The hair can however, for instance if wearing a chainmail, be woven into a braid or put below a helmet or hat. In many middle-age associated movies we might see a knight wearing a white cap on his head under which his hair was protected from getting entangled in his armour or becoming a hinder in combat.

To Tolkien's world: Tolkien's world is a sexist world most of the time, keeping the duties of women and men clearly apart. Tolkien does not often let a woman take action of that of a warrior. We know he did so by Eowyn, but most protagonists of Tolkien who fought battles were infact male.
So to see a maiden armed for battle was a great rarity and certainly some sight to behold. And with the above stated ways to maintain long hair even in hard situations, women at arms could have long hair.

Elves having long hair instead of short is a picture that Tolkien uses and that many pictures and artwork starring elves/women from the Norse Mythology are using.
The physical form of the elves as Tolkien brought them into his stories are infact those elves from the Norse Mythology: Being described as tall beings of beauty that surpassed those of men (the leaf-shaped ears are actually an invention of Tolkien). Frey was in the Mythology their lord and was associated with sacral kingship, virility and prosperity, with sunshine and fair weather.
Luthien had long hair, as well as many other female characters that played a high importancy, infact I for my part cannot remember a single female being in Tolkien's stories that had short hair. No matter elf or woman. It seems Tolkien wishes to put emphasize with that on beauty, linking associated thoughts of a luxuriant life and prosperity. Or so at least it does to me.

So yes, elves seem to have always long hair in tolkien's writings. In RP in Lotro it can remain everyone's own decision. Who knows, maybe the elf maiden has gotten to know the wrong barber.

Alas, though a few new (also long!) hairstyles coming with Rohan would be very nice!

Originally Posted by Gaomee

Luthien had long hair, as well as many other female characters that played a high importancy, infact I for my part cannot remember a single female being in Tolkien's stories that had short hair. No matter elf or woman. It seems Tolkien wishes to put emphasize with that on beauty, linking associated thoughts of a luxuriant life and prosperity. Or so at least it does to me.

Or maybe just the fact that in the past it was simply normal (or even expected, in some cases, as I mentioned earlier) for women to have long hair? That's why the female characters have long hair, because they ought to. It would be weird if they didn't, in such a traditionally-minded fantasy. (This would be what underpinned the original comment).

So yes, elves seem to have always long hair in tolkien's writings. In RP in Lotro it can remain everyone's own decision. Who knows, maybe the elf maiden has gotten to know the wrong barber.

The hairstyles were chosen with modern expectations in mind, those of your typical gamer rather than RPers, and also bearing in mind the limitations of the game engine. Bear that in mind, just because something's in the game doesn't automatically make it a good choice for RP.

Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU

But we're not talking about the realities of the modern world, are we? Having modernity intrude on fantasy is seldom a good thing....

I did not think I was being so unclear, but as I refuse to think you are forcefully misunderstanding me, I will try again.

This has nothing to do with modernity, antiquity or anything in between. This has something to do with people looking everywhere for faults instead of for little rays of light. There is a saying that two wolves reside in each of us. One of them bitter, violent, and angry, the other positive, benevolent and happy. The one we feed will rule.
In fact, modern research on the brain and psychology shows something very near to that could be reality. The parts of our brain we use, grows. And if people spend their time being bitter and nitpicking, nothing good will come of it, least of all for the community on Laurelin. Instead they will see ghosts and problems everywhere. That was my point. I hope it is clear now.

Best regards
Bregir

PS. I really do not think this is really about hairstyle, yet the discussion seem to be going down that road. Even *IF* Tolkien explicitly had written that *no one* EVER wore their hair short, I still cannot understand why anyone would make a fuss over it. Again - if that is what puts people off...

Given some of the other stuff you see in-game, I find it amazing that people should find hair such an important issue to focus on. It certainly isn't going to ruin my game. Personally it's a total triviality to me because I can see no justification to the argument that nobody anywhere in Middle Earth would have short hair under any circumstances whatsoever, but quite frankly even if someone found something definitive in lore to wave at us to prove this, I would struggle to care overly and would have this well well down the list of issues that are of importance.

Is this really the thing has people lying awake at night after logging off ? Traumatised by the sight a short haired woman ?

It just seems like someone standing in a burning building complaining about soot on the carpet

Originally Posted by Linuetal

Given some of the other stuff you see in-game, I find it amazing that people should find hair such an important issue to focus on. It certainly isn't going to ruin my game. Personally it's a total triviality to me because I can see no justification to the argument that nobody anywhere in Middle Earth would have short hair under any circumstances whatsoever, but quite frankly even if someone found something definitive in lore to wave at us to prove this, I would struggle to care overly and would have this well well down the list of issues that are of importance.

Is this really the thing has people lying awake at night after logging off ? Traumatised by the sight a short haired woman ?

It just seems like someone standing in a burning building complaining about soot on the carpet

/agree

And now to be honest I think that people must be really bored to even comment on subjects like this...

Come on!

Is a joke? do we really care about the hair? Don't we have nothing else better to do like: events, comment on events done (like Onnad Lyth), comment on the show of Dweeb and Roxxor (which is aweosme fun)? Is really nothing better to do than comment about pixelated hair in a non-existing world of a virtual game? How old are we?.

Originally Posted by Abellinda

Upon creating an account, there should be a ticky-box or some sort of sellection as to wether you RP or not, and also link some sort of test and/or guidline to RP. If you do NOT choose RP are you given a list of servers which do not involve RP. This seemed like a very popular notion among the OOC. It will organise neatly who does and does not RP.

I think this is an inherently divisive idea that excludes those players (some of whom have already replied to this) who want to immerse themselves in Middle Earth without necessarily conforming to someone's (even their own) idea of roleplaying. By all means have something explaining the unique qualities of Laurelin but a test? Really? If players want to come to Laurelin and are happy to abide by there server's rules then I for one welcome them with open arms, whether or not they choose to roleplay.

Originally Posted by Abellinda

Another idea which was brough forward was a 24 hour review of character creations. When you make a new character, you fill in the basics of your character. Name; Location; About them etc etc; And if they do not meet with the lore requirments you must change them..I think having a kin called "Super Hesiter Boss Guy" just proves the lack of policing and care going into our server.

This would require a ridiculous number of employee-hours to achieve, far more cost-effective to wait until a ticket is raised.

Originally Posted by Abellinda

Another was for tickets to be able to be sent by anyone...I personally think it is unfair that VIP's only get to send tickets..F2P have problems too.

This would, again, increase the workload of GMs to unsustainable levels. You want customer support? Pay for it. Automated processes are able to sustain a F2P population because the overheads are quite low, however anything that requires the interaction of a paid employee becomes significantly more of a financial drain as numbers increase. One solution might be to charge F2P and Premium players Turbine Points to raise a ticket but then that would encourage Turbine deliberately to include bugs and anti-social behaviour to the game, so perhaps not eh?

Originally Posted by Abellinda

A little one was also brought up on the hairstyles of the characters and how even they break the lore...for instance short hair on an female elf. And how short hair in general never came about until the 1930's.

Aside from being, frankly, ludicrous (and I challenge that 1930's assertion) my response is one of puzzlement. In a post that bemoans the lack of roleplaying on the server, why is the first instinct not to react in-character to this sort of thing? What does your character think of Elven women with short hair? Would you talk about them? Ignore them? Scold them? Whilst I acknowledge that there are some issues that cannot be dealt with in-character, this is not one of them. It's an in-character issue, deal with it in-character; to drag such things onto an out of character forum really just says "I want everyone to play the game the way I say it should be played" however life, both real and simulated, just isn't like that ... as many of us discovered at nursery school.

Originally Posted by Isilmewen

/agree

And now to be honest I think that people must be really bored to even comment on subjects like this...

Come on!

Is a joke? do we really care about the hair? Don't we have nothing else better to do like: events, comment on events done (like Onnad Lyth), comment on the show of Dweeb and Roxxor (which is aweosme fun)? Is really nothing better to do than comment about pixelated hair in a non-existing world of a virtual game? How old are we?.

I don't think anyone who appears to take such care over how their equally pixelated and non-existent Elf is dressed can really complain when someone starts talking about hairstyles.

Kalluin, at least answer to my complete statement instead of pulling things out of context. Thank you.

Otherwise you're just flaming.

My apologies, it was not my intention to flame. I just tried to express my opinion that your example was not one of lore-breaking... Although I understand noldor roleplaying is a frame where lore-breaking happens too frequently.

@Kalluin

No offense taken.

I just think it distorts the message when you leave out that I wrote "I think not" to the statement about the Noldo, it was but one example, as was the hobbit one.

I knew when I wrote it that Galadriel and the others are Noldo, some would in fact claim Gildor to be more Maia than Noldo

RP is such a hard thing to size up, let's say you are new to Tolkiens universe, and you have not yet read the books, simply seen the movies. So you roll an elf, and end up finding some RP in Bree, because people there talk to you right away.
Is that wrong?, well lore wise it would be, but gamewise? Not really. You are following the flow, we all did that at one point, and only the oldtimers really run their lvl 7 to Rivendell or get a port there, new people find the RP where they can.

Also, being a player of elves myself, we are kind of hard to get involved with, many go to HoF and end up not talking to others, simply because for a new player, it can be really intimidating to go there and see the rich interaction between the oldtimers. As late as yesterday I was told by a new kinmember that he had gone but had ended up leaving because noone had spoken with him in character.... I plan to take him myself tonight and get him introduced.

Lorebreaking RP will continue to happen, as will the non-lore naming of characters and kins, it's a game after all, and I am pretty sure quite a few of those only on Laurelin to Raid and Instance... do so because the setting is more relaxed here than on pure raidservers. They get me fancy stuff on the AH, can I complain? Besides the ludicrous pricing, not really.

RP, have fun, and to be honest, if you are an elf in Bree, a hobbit in Rivendell, or a dwarf in Lothloríen... WELCOME!
(just try not to godmode and be a vampire with lightningsparking eyes)

Originally Posted by Mausen

Honestly, if people can't be bothered to read the EULA regarding the special rules of RP server Laurelin (yes, we are in fact the only one truly named as an RP server)

No, you are not, in fact Laurelin is only one of three equal RP servers.

Personally, I play on two of those servers (Laurelin and Belegaer) and roleplay on both servers. Of course I keep my names, outfits and behaviour the way I find appropriate for the setting and interaction with fellow players. Until now I've actually found the Laurelin community the more tolerant and less "hardcore-RP" (whatever that is) of the two, welcoming every new player and integrating them into the roleplay easily.

That said, I'm not exclusively a roleplayer. There are days (and quite a few of them) when I prefer to have my hobbits hang around the ox clan merchant camp and go raiding Saruman's tower or whatever other instance strikes my fancy. Both roleplaying and instances/raids are part of this game, and what makes RP servers most difficult to me is that people always want to put you into a category, either as roleplayer or raider, and can't accept that a player can be both and enjoy it without bothering fellow players.

I don't care for extra policing of RP servers because it is a very fine line to walk, and one that could just as easily kill the server as help it. Additional tests or checkboxes at character creation will just lead to many people not creating their characters on RP servers at all, because it's not worth the hassle to try out if the server suits you or not. RP servers need new players as well as all other players, you will get good and bad ones (regardless of your definition of good or bad) just like every other server, but trying to block of the "bad" ones will result in blocking off lots of "good" ones, too, and you will end up with an empty server.

Are you people talking about hair styles or RP ?? Now that is just a joke
I started playing lotro about a year and a half ago. Being a pen&pencil role player and DM/ST for 15 years before that choosing Laurelin or another RP server would be an obvious choice. Funny thing is that a non RPer friend in rl convinced me to join lotro in the same server and he had chosen Laurelin just for the immersion. Many people do, as noted previously in the discussion.
Me, I do not rp in Laurelin much, if at all, for many reasons. I do consciously try not to do anything that my char wouldn't do. In a way I rp for myself. Sometimes when I bump into an rp event I will certainly watch and sometimes participate if I can. I 'll also rp in random encounters with other players if I and the other player are in mood. Sometimes I try first, sometimes the other player, sometimes I'm left standing like an idiot *shrug* But when it happens it is fun!
Imho there is no better way to invite/convince people to rp than seeing others having fun that way
That being said, there is nothing worse than having a rp-police in any way. You cannot force people to rp!
Even in rl when we gather in group to rp out of the 6 (for example) hours , I am happy if we rp the 4 of them.
Also do not forget that not all people have the experience in the game to use all rp elements , and not all people can afford the TP to get everything so that they rp "properly" dressed and/or equiped.
Another parameter is the language. Not all people have english as mother language and it is both difficult and time consuming to rp and express yourself. I for example, do not feel very confident with my knowledge of the language to rp as easily as I would in my own language.
There are more arguments/examples I could give, but it would get boring (if not already), so to conclude: knock yourselves out rping as much as you can, that way we all get the immersion feeling that we all like and more non-rpers will be intrigued to participate. Convincing by example is the way to go imho. And for everything else: it's just a game after all, do have fun!!

Sorry for bumping this old threat but I thought I would write here instead of just posting a new topic.

I haven't read the entire 3 pages as time is of the essence but, in reply to the OPs post, this is completely correct.

Recently, the numbers of lawbreaking names has gone through the roof, I mean, we had someone called 'Bonecrusher' on globallff the other day! I'm sorry but Laurelin has the EN-RP tag for a reason and those playing here should live by it, imho, and more importantly, should respect those who want to RP!

Every lore-breaking name I see, I report, and my tickets rarely get answered let alone sorted out and, frankly, I feel this is unacceptable. It is as though Turbine is simply neglecting this part of the RP server's code of conduct.

Again, sorry if I've repeated anything already said, just wanted to put my argument forward.

-Cal

Originally Posted by Calead

Sorry for bumping this old threat but I thought I would write here instead of just posting a new topic.

I haven't read the entire 3 pages as time is of the essence but, in reply to the OPs post, this is completely correct.

Recently, the numbers of lawbreaking names has gone through the roof, I mean, we had someone called 'Bonecrusher' on globallff the other day! I'm sorry but Laurelin has the EN-RP tag for a reason and those playing here should live by it, imho, and more importantly, should respect those who want to RP!

Every lore-breaking name I see, I report, and my tickets rarely get answered let alone sorted out and, frankly, I feel this is unacceptable. It is as though Turbine is simply neglecting this part of the RP server's code of conduct.

Again, sorry if I've repeated anything already said, just wanted to put my argument forward.

-Cal

I think this is the appropriate topic to post this in

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...rced-renaming!

I think the recent upsurge in bad names could be due to the fact that Lotro can now be accessed by Steam. So I would assume we have an influx of players who believe their *other-game-names* are acceptable.

All I can suggest is keep reporting the names - when we stop doing this, then we have no right to complain - I also make a note of them on my friends listing, if nothing happens about it... well, I've done my part.

Originally Posted by Abellinda

[...] Upon creating an account, there should be a ticky-box or some sort of sellection as to wether you RP or not, and also link some sort of test and/or guidline to RP.

I concord with this wholeheartedly, due to (A) There are an additional set of Turbine rules to RP server that are not found on any other servers (B) It'd a bit harsh to punish someone for violating the rules when they are not even at least notified of its existence.

At the very least, new player should have a "RP server has a set of additional rules that can be found at [link]" message when they decide create a character on laurelin or something to that effect.

Furthermore, shouldn't we have a replica thread of Turbine Official Roleplaying Rules and Policy stickied to the Laurelin Forum since we're the only server that it applies to?

Turbine Official Roleplaying Rules and Policy

People ask why RP died in Laurelin. It dies when kins decide to close in on themselves for rp and limit it to a specific area/activity.

A good idea to promote rp in the server and breathe RP into Laurelin would be to have the kins (some or most of them) participate in common scenarios. Im not talking about some kins following the scenario of one. Im talking about a number of kins following the lore in a steady pace, allowing the participants to shape the story as the RP proceeds, reaching certain milestones.

I understand there might be "conflicts" between kins about lore, etc, but the point would be to further inter-guild interractions beyond tavern rp. And in the final analysis if we want this RP server to become RP again we will have to create RP opportunities. Asking for GMs to respond to tickets and other suggestions -which have little hope of being implemented (not that they are bad ideas tbh)- will not work.


So I wonder how many of you (guilds or individuals) would be willing to participate in such an endeavor?

Originally Posted by Eorran

People ask why RP died in Laurelin.

I'm sorry, I didn't realise it had As far as I experence it is alive and well and all over the place.

I do agree with the not taking it behind closed doors mention. Rp should be in the open in public places where any passing traveler can come across it, and either join in/stay to watch for a moment or to smile and wish well.

Of course, I can only really speak for the race I know - Hobbits. But we are always active with rp.

Originally Posted by TwenBumblefoot

I'm sorry, I didn't realise it had As far as I experence it is alive and well and all over the place.

I do agree with the not taking it behind closed doors mention. Rp should be in the open in public places where any passing traveler can come across it, and either join in/stay to watch for a moment or to smile and wish well.

Of course, I can only really speak for the race I know - Hobbits. But we are always active with rp.

It is alive, and I don't know why are we discussing on this if its not for food.

(Oh look I have all sorts of dresses and I love it, they are so beautiful pixelated dresses... )