Thread: Is RK in a good place right now? (long post ahead)

I like most of where RK's are at a moment.

First on the healing side. I play my warden in my sig most of the time. I play with my gf who is also an rk and my second main is an rk. I love healing on my rk. Givent a choice when im making a group (usually with my warden) If we get a mini and an rk in the group. The mini usually heals...not because they are better or stronger or more in any way...but because the RK will out dps the mini. Granted war speach is good for a mele heavy group. ToO aside as most of the time there is one of each or who is geared for what role bla bla bla ... Lets keep it simple. RoF. We have my warden as a tank my gf is an rk we get a LM for stuns and a mini for the conversation. Good to have a hunter because ranged dps is just what this place needs. Now that leaves one spot left. A cappy is nice for backup heals and buffs. But a burg or champ is not bad either. Any way you go...The dps of the rk is more usefull than the dps of the mini. I think that is why mini's heal almost every time. Unless you have a mele heavy group with an rk and mini the mini should heal and the rk should dps.

As for our healing skills i like most of them. EoA is sweet the way it is. Most of the time between that and mending verse i dont need any more matinence on the rest of the group asside from the spot heal here or there when someone stands in fire or some other random damage attack. For sustained group damage like healing lightning wing boss. I need nothing more than epic of the ages on the tank and mending verse to keep my group up. The ocational cross heal perhaps.

I wish prelude to hope was better. I understand it needs to be a low rate heal because it is instant and can be used at any attunement etc... But in heal mode its on par with the rune stone. You do it because its there but its not going to save the day. I would like to see it gain maby 2-3% for every level of healing attunement. That way when your in heal mode it would be good. But would not turn you into a dps class with uber self heals.

On the dps side. Fire is just not worth the work to make new fire legacied bags and stones for. Solo and pvp light is king. In a group light is plenty good. On all but boss fights lightning is better than fire. The mobs will be dead before fire is done ticking. Even on boss fights i dont see fire being so much better than lightning to warrent traiting for it and getting new fire dps stone..just for boss fights. Yes the way essay worked before was very OP but... man it was fun. It had to be fixed. But for the drawbacks fire brings to the function of light... fire is not good enough. For the casting time and self rooting fire gives you the payoff is not good enough. Would like to see fire skills with a bit more up front damage. Make the dots shorter but tick faster. I like the idea of casting fire on a personal note but its just not worth it.

I would also like to see skills like do not fall to storm or that blade will not wound etc. Work like all fates intwined. Turn it on and its on for the fight. let it drain power at a resonable rate. And give us back that little buff...cant remember the name. The one that can only be used now if your 6 deep in healing.. Even then the boost it gives for the duration is not really worth the bother to cast it. Maby if it was felowship wide. It should be useable at any attunement either way.

Again Fasin, you can't dismiss anything by mocking it.

I see lightning as ezmode mainly because so many fail to realize that fire is at the very minimum equal to lightning. So the reason they go lightning is because that is what they have always traited. I used to trait it until roi was released. Secondly in fire you have to keep up two dots, skill amount being the same. And last i checked induction skills ranked higher in difficulty than instant cast, at least hunter sure did/is cry/crying a lot about it.

And no I didn't assume enamel use. So i probably forgot fire of 3 FR's.

So lightning RKs cannot be stunned? and when you zap your target is immune to WL bubles? Point being those things you listed as a pure fire dps problem also is a lightning RK problem.

Even if we assumed all your points Fasin being a problem only to fire RKs, you theory still hinges on the freeps are charging or a lot of creeps has gotten overly brave. That is the only way without a dedicated healer a RK in lightning could ever get close enough to fire off steady hits without getting killed because of their range. Fire still has that problem though that being radically less.

Originally Posted by Nokor

Again Fasin, you can't dismiss anything by mocking it.

I see lightning as ezmode mainly because so many fail to realize that fire is at the very minimum equal to lightning. So the reason they go lightning is because that is what they have always traited. I used to trait it until roi was released. Secondly in fire you have to keep up two dots, skill amount being the same. And last i checked induction skills ranked higher in difficulty than instant cast, at least hunter sure did/is cry/crying a lot about it.

And no I didn't assume enamel use. So i probably forgot fire of 3 FR's.

So lightning RKs cannot be stunned? and when you zap your target is immune to WL bubles? Point being those things you listed as a pure fire dps problem also is a lightning RK problem.

Even if we assumed all your points Fasin being a problem only to fire RKs, you theory still hinges on the freeps are charging or a lot of creeps has gotten overly brave. That is the only way without a dedicated healer a RK in lightning could ever get close enough to fire off steady hits without getting killed because of their range. Fire still has that problem though that being radically less.

So you think something is ezmode because the people who use it fail to conform to your theory that Fire is better than Lightning? That seems to be more of a problem with the people who trait Lightning versus the actual trait line.

Stuns affect both Lightning and Fire Runekeepers. Where the Lightning Runekeeper gets stunned, so does the Fire Runekeeper. Where the Lightning Runekeepers target gets bubbled, so does the Fire Runekeepers. There is a difference though, assume your target gets bubbled right as you eof and hit Smouldering Wrath. You're out of burst for 45s till Smouldering Wrath is back up (or at the very least for 20 till eof is back up, assuming you can somehow get it off now since you burned Calming Verse/Inlay the first time). Lightning Runekeepers target gets bubbled right as he hits Epic Conclusion, Essence of Storm, Shocking Words (we'll assume he didn't notice the bubble for a few seconds). Out of burst for 8 seconds till Essence of Storm is back up.

No, I do not assume creeps being overly brave, or the freeps charging. I assume the numbers being even enough to involve a fight. Attempting to compare a Fire and Lightning Runekeeper in the ideal situation for a Fire Runekeeper just won't work out. You might as well compare Fire and Lightning dps during the jumping phase in Acid wing (assuming you left the adds alive).

I have no idea how a higher difficulty level would help make Fire better than Lightning, but good for you for managing to put that in your post.

Do not forget, that I gave you two reasons why lightning is ezmode, not just the lack of conformity.

My point of conformity is still valid in another sense. You think lightning is best because it used to be, if you have not yourself tried properly then you don't really know either.

Why would I burn both an inlay and cv? They essentially grant the same, so why double pot, seems a bit stupid if you ask me. EoF is 15s cd, not 20. So I only have to wait another 15s.

Anyway, if you assume I wasted all my CD and then the bubble was put on, you also have to assume the lightning RK did. There is no reason as to why the chance of messing with those would be in favor of a lightning RK. You also have to remember the aoe dot, they are still ticking.
So all in all you could put up any scenario where fire would be better or lightning would. I suppose that might have been your point?

You still haven't accounted for 20m range vs. 30m range.
aoe dotting vs. two shotting.
---

Why would you ever let adds on acid stay alive? You know you loose the challenge, right?

I think we had a "parse off" in another thread. So far I've matched them.

Originally Posted by Nokor

Do not forget, that I gave you two reasons why lightning is ezmode, not just the lack of conformity.

My point of conformity is still valid in another sense. You think lightning is best because it used to be, if you have not yourself tried properly then you don't really know either.

Why would I burn both an inlay and cv? They essentially grant the same, so why double pot, seems a bit stupid if you ask me. EoF is 15s cd, not 20. So I only have to wait another 15s.

Anyway, if you assume I wasted all my CD and then the bubble was put on, you also have to assume the lightning RK did. There is no reason as to why the chance of messing with those would be in favor of a lightning RK. You also have to remember the aoe dot, they are still ticking.
So all in all you could put up any scenario where fire would be better or lightning would. I suppose that might have been your point?

You still haven't accounted for 20m range vs. 30m range.
aoe dotting vs. two shotting.
---

Why would you ever let adds on acid stay alive? You know you loose the challenge, right?

I think we had a "parse off" in another thread. So far I've matched them.

ezmode matters for nothing, some might argue that zerging acid is ezmode, but that doesn't mean the zerg strat is worse.

Bottom line with Fire in the moors, if you're playing against any semi decent creeps you will be intterupted into oblivion. If you're not being intterupted you're playing against awful creeps and will win no matter how you're traited, if you are being intterupted it outweighs any other advantage Fire may offer.

Letting the adds stay alive in acid is stupid, that was my point.. It's equivalent to traiting Lightning and then carrying on a fight at 30 meters range.

I am not aware of any thread that involved parsing in the moors on creeps. That is what we were talking about.

Originally Posted by Nokor

Do not forget, that I gave you two reasons why lightning is ezmode, not just the lack of conformity.

My point of conformity is still valid in another sense. You think lightning is best because it used to be, if you have not yourself tried properly then you don't really know either.

Why would I burn both an inlay and cv? They essentially grant the same, so why double pot, seems a bit stupid if you ask me. EoF is 15s cd, not 20. So I only have to wait another 15s.

Anyway, if you assume I wasted all my CD and then the bubble was put on, you also have to assume the lightning RK did. There is no reason as to why the chance of messing with those would be in favor of a lightning RK. You also have to remember the aoe dot, they are still ticking.
So all in all you could put up any scenario where fire would be better or lightning would. I suppose that might have been your point?

You still haven't accounted for 20m range vs. 30m range.
aoe dotting vs. two shotting.
---

Why would you ever let adds on acid stay alive? You know you loose the challenge, right?

I think we had a "parse off" in another thread. So far I've matched them.

I am sorry...I don't usually respond but you have lost credibility in PvP play with me if you think DOTs are going to kill creeps. Burst and CC are king in PvP...that is true for EVERY MMO I have ever played. That is why you see raid leaders speaking about focus fire. This ... and solely this is why Lightning is king in the moors. You want to play an induction AoE class...then play a burst AoE class - Champ or LM in this game. This conversation about dotting multiple creeps at the same...will get you good parse numbers but you'll kill absolutely nobody...its just ineffective.

If you are going to speak about PvP ... at least know something about it.

Thank you for all the kind words, appreciated.

I am not looking for credibility nor am I seeking approval for my trait line. I like dotting at pew pew and letting other kill stuff while I collect infamy, that was my entire point. It has been so in other threads too. Fasin just decided to pick at a few points I made and still is ignoring half my posts.

You can add all the intelligence to a creep as you want, but they rarely escape or get bubbled before the dot of mf, wof and sw channeled will kill them.

Which class exactly is it that can perma interrupt you? and they would still have to react to it. The quickest I have been shut down is after two ticks.

If induction based classes were so useless why were hunter still so popular before they were handed PS on the move.

Originally Posted by Nokor

You still haven't accounted for 20m range vs. 30m range.
aoe dotting vs. two shotting.

Lightning RKs have mobility and can move in and out of their 20m range at will. I dunno what server you play on, but on Boringwine, the creeps rarely form skirmish lines, preferring to fan out to minimize AoE damage from champs and LMs. As such, the storm RK can move around the periphery of the battle, and rarely be within 30m range of more than half the ranged creeps.
By comparison, the Fire RK must completely stop using skills while moving, save an instant WoF. Additionally, if you are standing still turret-tizing, the enemy ranged players may group up on your flank, for example, and easily overwhelm you with superior numbers. Lack of mobility = death.

As to DoTs vs. 2-shot burst:

Originally Posted by Fasin

You can also look at it this way, you run in spamming mf, easily countered by Warleader or Defiler group heals.

What makes a DoT scary in PvP? It isn't output or duration, it is the fact that they stack with similar skills from other players of the same class. No one screams, Oh Jah, there is a spider stacking on me! Remember the BA fire arrow from a year or two ago? It didn't do obscene damage, it simply couldn't be potted and your average raid had like 6-10 BAs spamming the same skill. One or two DoT players is not going to turn a battle, unless it is by distracting their own healers from the friendlies doing work. Most of the DoTs in this game, particularly in PvP, are simply not big enough to require more than passive healing. Oh, that RK used EoF on a few of my friends, time to hit Efflorescence (haven't played my defiler in months, I think that's the AoE HoT, lol), and then COMPLETELY IGNORE IT.
By comparison, what does high-potential burst do? You're sitting storm-traited in a raid, building attunement. Thunderous Words and Harsh Debate come up, you pop CV and sprint in. You then find a fat defiler in the back and knock 'em for a 5k Shocking Words. The first thing that player is going to do is ask for a bubble or big heal, because he assumes you are coming with EC next, and doesn't want to be assploded. This not only takes one player almost completely out of the fight, if the raid isn't VERY well organized, he's likely distracting multiple healers and potentially wasting multiple bubble/big heal CDs. This puts the enemy off balance, and gives your side an edge.

Originally Posted by Nokor

I like dotting at pew pew and letting other kill stuff while I collect infamy, that was my entire point.

...

If induction based classes were so useless why were hunter still so popular before they were handed PS on the move.

lol at the first part, why don't you play heals instead? DoT your teammate's health back to full at range while they do the work for you. PS, you're the only RK I know collecting infamy...

As to hunters: fast/solo leveling ability, stealth, tracking, massive burst DPS, shallow skill curve, and frankly, even the worst DPS player can get a group in this game if they have a lvl75 2nd age. Case and Point, fire RKs before update 6 (IEoF -> FR spam, easily the most thought-provoking DPS rotation ever.)

I'm not trying to totally shred this guy, frankly, I've played both Fire and Storm in the moors after RoI. They are both viable, but only one is truly worthwhile, solo or in a group. The long and short of it is this thread has derailed, and completely amused me.

PS, FerPac doesn't play any other MMOs, don't listen to that noob.

i have champ,warden and rk and also i havent tried yet the 'fire' rk, but the lighting dps is not very good.

i have tested it with all my chars and dps wise is something like that:

champ>lighting rk~warden.

it seems to me that lighting is burst dmg and fire good dps.

Is it accepted fire is better at AOE? What with FR and EoF taking on an AOE component, and consistent use of scathing mockery will keep WoF tiers up on all mobs + frost skills, it seems a big chunk of DPS is AOE at no extra cost.

When I do DPS, I use fire. I just prefer it, and there is no way I can be bothered to make a new set of legendaries. Certainly in ToO trash AoE is good, and on 2 bosses AoE is beneficial (we tend to ball the Sarumen up to make the most of AOE after killing shadow).

Lightning is nowhere near as bad as a Wardens dps, Fire and Lightning are close enough in terms of single target dps for it not to matter too much which one you pick.

I have seperate sets of LIs for Fire and Lightning and switch trait lines for different boss fights. But unless there are multiple targets, I stick with Lightning.

Originally Posted by petaloudas00

i have champ,warden and rk and also i havent tried yet the 'fire' rk, but the lighting dps is not very good.

i have tested it with all my chars and dps wise is something like that:

champ>lighting rk~warden.

it seems to me that lighting is burst dmg and fire good dps.

Without knowing your test methodology (sp?), I can't say where you went wrong. Having played both wardens and RKs at end-game, I can assure you that ANY RK DPS is going to be better than warden DPS -- by a long shot.

dummy... since lighting dmg is not based on dots you can test your dps there and my dps is about 1000-1200(my tests duration are 4+minutes).
as for the warden i cant test the dotted melee rotation but my rotation without dots is about 1000-1100 and this rotation is slightly worse than my dotted rotation.
also rk and warden had at my test almost the same dps stats(crit,mastery and finesse).

and another thing...it seems that you are absolutely sure that my statement is wrong .....do you have warden?did you test it?

about fire... i tested it at a foundry run and they are better at aoe for sure and it seems that they are better at single boss fight but im not sure cause i dont have weapons for fire dmg.

The thing about fire. Ill agree fire is better at aoe no doubt. And i will believe fire may be slightly better with boss dps using the right rotations. But heres my problem with fire. It is not as fun or handy to solo or pvmp with even if it is as good dps wise. And given the lack of mobility i really cant see a resonable arguement for fire being better solo or pvmp than lightning.

That being said that leaves trash mobs and boss fights in raids and groups. Fire is better on trash mobs due to aoe. But they are TRASH mobs....they will die fast and easy anyway. So wile fire is better in this situation it is meaningless. And that brings us to boss fights. Nobody seems to have actual data on boss fights for fire and even the ones that say fire is better say its not better by much. With that i dont see a reason to make new LI's to max fire that im only going to use for boss fights to be slightly better than a lightning build that is better in most situations and only slightly less good than fire for all of 5-7 minuts of a ToO wing.

Also i kinda think with raid buffs. Lightning gets a bigger boost than fire due to bigger numbers on damage per hit. A 5% damage buff on a 5k hit is bigger than a 5% damage buff on a 700 fire tick. And light crits more by a lot and more crits means more payoff to damage buffs like crit and marks etc.


**** What i would like to see. If someone has a dps lightning and fire LI setup. Pars your damage for a LL Daily run a couple times with both setups. Try to do it with a small group. Ideally just a warden as a tank and you to dps. The mobs should live long enough to get a resonable pars with fire dots if its just you and a warden. And its easy and no need or worry about raid buffs to mess it up.

Originally Posted by Ackibo

The thing about fire. Ill agree fire is better at aoe no doubt. And i will believe fire may be slightly better with boss dps using the right rotations. But heres my problem with fire. It is not as fun or handy to solo or pvmp with even if it is as good dps wise. And given the lack of mobility i really cant see a resonable arguement for fire being better solo or pvmp than lightning.

That being said that leaves trash mobs and boss fights in raids and groups. Fire is better on trash mobs due to aoe. But they are TRASH mobs....they will die fast and easy anyway. So wile fire is better in this situation it is meaningless. And that brings us to boss fights. Nobody seems to have actual data on boss fights for fire and even the ones that say fire is better say its not better by much. With that i dont see a reason to make new LI's to max fire that im only going to use for boss fights to be slightly better than a lightning build that is better in most situations and only slightly less good than fire for all of 5-7 minuts of a ToO wing.

Also i kinda think with raid buffs. Lightning gets a bigger boost than fire due to bigger numbers on damage per hit. A 5% damage buff on a 5k hit is bigger than a 5% damage buff on a 700 fire tick. And light crits more by a lot and more crits means more payoff to damage buffs like crit and marks etc.


**** What i would like to see. If someone has a dps lightning and fire LI setup. Pars your damage for a LL Daily run a couple times with both setups. Try to do it with a small group. Ideally just a warden as a tank and you to dps. The mobs should live long enough to get a resonable pars with fire dots if its just you and a warden. And its easy and no need or worry about raid buffs to mess it up.

Do you see it now, Zombie Columbus? I've been warning you about this. If fire isn't out-dpsing lightning, there it's very little reason to use it. Why bother using fire when you can't take it to the moors? Why bother using fire when lightning makes soloing so much easier? Do you see what I'm saying now? Other than the thematic attraction (which isn't as nice as it used to be, btw) new RK's won't bother having 2 separate DPS setups, and lightning wins because of mobility. Do you see?

And don't think I've given up on Essence of Flame. AOE or not, it still should be a DoT.

My RK model will be done soon. It's not copyrighted. Just sayin.

Originally Posted by PerfectApproach

Do you see it now, Zombie Columbus? I've been warning you about this. If fire isn't out-dpsing lightning, there it's very little reason to use it. Why bother using fire when you can't take it to the moors? Why bother using fire when lightning makes soloing so much easier? Do you see what I'm saying now? Other than the thematic attraction (which isn't as nice as it used to be, btw) new RK's won't bother having 2 separate DPS setups, and lightning wins because of mobility. Do you see?

If, theoretically, both lightning and fire can produce, e.g, 1800 DPS on a single target but you pull aggro if you pass 1500 DPS on lightning, which one will be better? Fire with better threat management that allows you to push your DPS all the way up to 1800 or lightning that needs to be held back to 1500? I think I'll go with fire any time I can, but sometimes lightning is better and aggro is not an issue.

Add to that the fact that most bosses do frontal AoE damage that can one-shot light armour wearers and give near death experiences to any medium wearers. And we can't forget all the fight mechanics that will cause wipes if a boss is facing the wrong way.

Addendum: Being a good raider is not (only) about having the highest DPS number at the end a fight; it's about being able to adapt, act, and react. Sometimes that means producing insane DPS but most of the time it's just positioning, not pulling aggro and not forgetting to pot your effects.

Originally Posted by Raven-EU

If, theoretically, both lightning and fire can produce, e.g, 1800 DPS on a single target but you pull aggro if you pass 1500 DPS on lightning, which one will be better? Fire with better threat management that allows you to push your DPS all the way up to 1800 or lightning that needs to be held back to 1500? I think I'll go with fire any time I can, but sometimes lightning is better and aggro is not an issue.

That´s one point, another point is even if Lightning does the same DPS as Fire solo against a Dummy, it´s still worse in Raids

Because Crit Defence of bosses is higher and that hurts Lightning more and because LMs debuff Fire Migitation by 20%

It's very difficult really comparing the two DPS lines because I don't know anyone who has the full Erebraw and the full Puignor set with similar stat/relic LIs for each traitline. I tend to see people just changing traits and runestone and making a judgement without really paying attention to how significant the gear set bonuses are. Erebraw's 10% additional chance really is magnificent for RK Lightning DPS. Any Fire RK testing the current state of Lightning can not do so without having the set, and perhaps the same can be said for a Lightning build RK testing Fire.

Originally Posted by Raven-EU

If, theoretically, both lightning and fire can produce, e.g, 1800 DPS on a single target but you pull aggro if you pass 1500 DPS on lightning, which one will be better? Fire with better threat management that allows you to push your DPS all the way up to 1800 or lightning that needs to be held back to 1500? I think I'll go with fire any time I can, but sometimes lightning is better and aggro is not an issue.

Fire doesn't have better threat management. Mystifying Flame's threat reduction is broken. And your example doesn't really reflect what's really happening. I pull aggro anytime I exceed 1200 DPS, regardless of which way I'm traited. You make the assumption that you can do higher DPS with fire without pulling aggro. Simply not true. The threshold is much lower than 1500 DPS, and it's it's roughly equal for both trait lines.

Originally Posted by Raven-EU

Add to that the fact that most bosses do frontal AoE damage that can one-shot light armour wearers and give near death experiences to any medium wearers. And we can't forget all the fight mechanics that will cause wipes if a boss is facing the wrong way.

Has nothing to do with what you quoted from me, but sure. Although most of the frontal AOE I have encountered is actually distributed, so the one-shots and two-shots can usually be avoided with positioning... and Fire RK's have a distinct disadvantage with positioning in that they can't really move while DPS'ing.

Originally Posted by Raven-EU

Addendum: Being a good raider is not (only) about having the highest DPS number at the end a fight; it's about being able to adapt, act, and react. Sometimes that means producing insane DPS but most of the time it's just positioning, not pulling aggro and not forgetting to pot your effects.

You are correct.
1) Positioning is important. Advantage: Lightning. Can't move if you're inducting, and can't use skills if you're moving.
2) Not pulling aggro: Equal (Aggro is so broken right now)
3) Potting effects: Advantage: Lightning. Can't pot effects during channeled skills. "You are too busy to do that right now." Inductions used to be the same way, but that got fixed.

There is no absolute threshold for DPS. Some tanks are just better at holding aggro than others, and the rest of your group makeup makes a huge difference. Put your highest DPS champ in the tank group so he can ebb. 25% percent total accumulated threat transfer is gigantic. Stand closer to the tank so he sucks up your threat via Whirling Retaliation (or whatever threat leeches wardens have, or Rising Ire for champ tanks).

I've done some more testing on Mystifying Flames and it *does* appear that the threat reduction component is front-loaded, possibly due to a broken effect ticking mechanic. Spam the hell out of MF (I like to hit it 10+ times after my first SW) and your threat will drop like a rock. I still need a bit more gear (did Shadow + Saruman yesterday but won't have full fire DPS setup ready until next week as I skipped early locks, need to finish Scholar so I can use the good crafted relics) before I can test with a serious fire DPS build, but I'm pretty confident that between MF spam and having good tanks I won't pull too often.

@nokor

what makes my opinion valid is that i'm r9, it ain't the highest rank but it's sure up there. you don't get to r9 after 1 day in the moors buddy. firstly lets examine your comment about lightning traited rk's using only 6 skils shall we?

I use, CA, SS, SW, EoS, SB, PI, EC, CR in almost every fight, if it isn't a freever i'm fighting i usually have WoH and prelude up, if stuff gets hairy i can parchment+inlay to either EotA myself, or just inlay and steady hands, bubbles, and all that jazz. i can get back to neutral from heals then with 3 instant casts of DW, AoS, and CV, hit a skill and enamel. assuming things aren't hairy, i can use them at the start of the fight if i want which is 3 more skills to add to the tally, i often instant WoC my opponent if given a chance, i utilise ST often, oh and btw, my EoW devs for 7k and i can insta cast it after a crit with EoS (which helps you to crit if you didn't know) while using the lightning moors gear, actually EoW is really good against defilers wl's and ba's. there are more too but i think i've proved the winner on that point.

secondly: mobility. Idk what kind of pathetic creeps you've been facing but i know i can kite through a fire rk's toon all day and he'll never reach max attunement without lightning skills. and the other issue with mobility, you can keep a number of creeps from dpsing you while you kite them killing their buddies, on a fire rk you got no real running skills, you gotta stand there and take it, not the best idea for a squishy. that also means that i can take on a warg pack of 6, and get all if not most of em, but you gotta just stand and vainly try to get an induction off. outnumbered lightning rk's live more often and get more kills than fire rk's in the same situation. oh yeah, and those dots, sure they're annoying if you're silly enough to let them hit you, but alls it takes is running away, the fire rk has no running attacks, so enjoy running after the freever as he runs across stab and all the way to TA from EC cause you were at max range and he decided to bail when he saw you, lightning rk's don't have this problem since they're closer, and when he bails they have less distance to cover to hit skills, thankfully we get a nice 20% run speed bonus for times like this, which fire rk's don't get. and the stun from SW is nice for slowin em too.

thirdly: the harm of cc. lightning rk's have no inductions...... so whenever we get stunned, silenced, disarmed, etc, we lose nothing but the actual cc time. when a fire rk get's cc'd, he loses whatever time he spent on inductions prior to the cc taking effect, resulting in a loss in dps. try being silenced twice, stunned twice and knocked down into the bargain, in a fight with a warg. (fairly common if they're competent) and it gets worse when fighting more than 1. and that doesn't even count attacks that interrupt as well, so you're already looking at significant decreases to your dps, and massive hold up of your attunement building (which again is less dps), you could hit a lightning skill and enamel to get MF up to get around this, but then MF doesn't stack, so you're in trouble cause initial MF pulses are terrible compared to lightning skills, and smoldering wrath likes to have as many different dots as possible, so just by virtue of being constantly cc'd your ultimate skill is weakened fairly significantly and the whole time you were doing this you only had 1 type of dot ticking...... 2 if you remembered to cast your free writ of fire 5 skills in.

fourth: given all this you will need more morale than the average rk out there just to survive your first rotation, since you'll be taking more damage, ok, you now prolly have a morale build, that's a further decrease in dps btw.

fifth:how many creeps can you take fire traited, me and a burg duo'd 14 at once about a month after RoI came out (they had heals too), i was lightning traited, tell me nokor, could you do that with fire? your answer is probably irrelevant here, whatever you post, i know you can't take that many with fire. standin still while the melee train wails on you.

i don't mean to make you look bad nokor, but i dislike people talkin trash about lightning, it is possible, using the right gear, to dev for more than 25k on things with EC (i don't mean draigoch either) i can switch to r6 warg pouncing me and 1 shot him with EC then switch back to the r14 reaver i'm fighting, how would a fire rk handle that situation?

goin back to what you said about lightning, there is much more to it than just CA spam followed by EC, i just wish more people would realize it.

Kaly, I think the reason it gets the reputation that it has is that it's easier to suck when Fire-traited. You have to try REALLY hard to excel at Fire. The ezmode facerollers can use Lightning and do pretty good. Of course, there are the few exceptions who can truly excel at Lightning and work miracles. But you can't faceroll Fire. And generally, I think people are assuming that just because you CAN faceroll Lightning, you DO faceroll Lightning.

I just picked some points from your post.

[QUOTE=loki84;6208110]@nokor


my EoW devs for 7k - Exaggerating much?

you can keep a number of creeps from dpsing you while you kite them killing their buddies - Creeps on your server dont use slows? Cause i know for sure youre gonna have hard time kiting skilled rvr/warg even with distracting winds and you using calming verse speed buff.

that also means i can take on warg pack of 6, and get all if not most of em, fire rk's don't get. - Again, what are the creeps doing in your server?



fourth: given all this you will need more morale than the average rk out there just to survive your first rotation, since you'll be taking more damage, ok, you now prolly have a morale build, that's a further decrease in dps btw. - Right....

me and a burg duo'd 14 at once about a month after RoI came out (they had heals too) - Not sure if serious, or just trolling

i don't mean to make you look bad nokor, but i dislike people talkin trash about lightning, it is possible, using the right gear, to dev for more than 25k on things with EC (i don't mean draigoch either) i can switch to r6 warg pouncing me and 1 shot him with EC then switch back to the r14 reaver i'm fighting, how would a fire rk handle that situation? - Oh man, you must teach me how to get those oneshotting crits on creeps who are probably traiting tact mit and have some level of audacity. And man, you must have huuuuge offence with if youre going for more than 25k devs lulz

Honestly, this post is full of epic win. You must teach me some of your awesomeness...

[QUOTE=Galadhol;6208928]I just picked some points from your post.

Originally Posted by loki84

@nokor


my EoW devs for 7k - Exaggerating much?

you can keep a number of creeps from dpsing you while you kite them killing their buddies - Creeps on your server dont use slows? Cause i know for sure youre gonna have hard time kiting skilled rvr/warg even with distracting winds and you using calming verse speed buff.

that also means i can take on warg pack of 6, and get all if not most of em, fire rk's don't get. - Again, what are the creeps doing in your server?



fourth: given all this you will need more morale than the average rk out there just to survive your first rotation, since you'll be taking more damage, ok, you now prolly have a morale build, that's a further decrease in dps btw. - Right....

me and a burg duo'd 14 at once about a month after RoI came out (they had heals too) - Not sure if serious, or just trolling

i don't mean to make you look bad nokor, but i dislike people talkin trash about lightning, it is possible, using the right gear, to dev for more than 25k on things with EC (i don't mean draigoch either) i can switch to r6 warg pouncing me and 1 shot him with EC then switch back to the r14 reaver i'm fighting, how would a fire rk handle that situation? - Oh man, you must teach me how to get those oneshotting crits on creeps who are probably traiting tact mit and have some level of audacity. And man, you must have huuuuge offence with if youre going for more than 25k devs lulz

Honestly, this post is full of epic win. You must teach me some of your awesomeness...

we could all take a lesson from loki. He's in the top 5, if not THE #1 dpser in the moors. Makes me seriously consider switching away from fire. I know it will be great again, but how long do I want to wait for it?

If you wanna be really OP in the Moors, trait Healing

:-P

Lightning relies on chance or luck whatever religion you subscribe to.

Fire relies on high damage with little to no fluctuation.

In my opinion using fire skills and depending on induction skills to harm your target is more difficult than using instant cast skills as a lightning RK. Therefore lightning RKs are ezmode in comparison with fire RKs.

In those 2v1 situations you should always die unless they are Red rank or plain stupid. Neither fire or lightning RKs will survive it.

My server's 1v1 action has nearly been destroyed and roaming solo is close to impossible as most creeps these days have 3 people patrolling their own GY or roaming in 3+ groups. So when I originally chose fire I chose to base it on pew pew. The advantage of fire is the range and MF spam. Lightning is awesome in zerging and pushing forward. Most situations on my server though turns out to be skirmish lines, where fire is superior.

[QUOTE=Galadhol;6208928]I just picked some points from your post.

Originally Posted by loki84

@nokor


my EoW devs for 7k - Exaggerating much?

you can keep a number of creeps from dpsing you while you kite them killing their buddies - Creeps on your server dont use slows? Cause i know for sure youre gonna have hard time kiting skilled rvr/warg even with distracting winds and you using calming verse speed buff.

that also means i can take on warg pack of 6, and get all if not most of em, fire rk's don't get. - Again, what are the creeps doing in your server?



fourth: given all this you will need more morale than the average rk out there just to survive your first rotation, since you'll be taking more damage, ok, you now prolly have a morale build, that's a further decrease in dps btw. - Right....

me and a burg duo'd 14 at once about a month after RoI came out (they had heals too) - Not sure if serious, or just trolling

i don't mean to make you look bad nokor, but i dislike people talkin trash about lightning, it is possible, using the right gear, to dev for more than 25k on things with EC (i don't mean draigoch either) i can switch to r6 warg pouncing me and 1 shot him with EC then switch back to the r14 reaver i'm fighting, how would a fire rk handle that situation? - Oh man, you must teach me how to get those oneshotting crits on creeps who are probably traiting tact mit and have some level of audacity. And man, you must have huuuuge offence with if youre going for more than 25k devs lulz

Honestly, this post is full of epic win. You must teach me some of your awesomeness...

no, not exaggerating at all, and when in a raid my will can hit 2400+ more in pve land. I have seen 7k on EoW, just in a fellowship, and no there wasn't a cappy in the group. if i had the frost damage legacy on my stone i'd expect this to increase further, frost skills USED to be bad, people forget that it gets the damage boost too from bein dps traited.

it's called slowing em right back. we have Distracting winds, armour of frost, and chilling rhetoric for this. also when creeps outnumber you they tend to get a little sloppy. also we have cool stuff like potting slows, having a brand up, and then there are run speed bonuses, like needful haste (if with a cappy) and even solo you have access to coffee and calming verse. there's also run speed sigils in the lotro store (which i refuse to buy) and a mark of the novice item (you get it at the start of the game) that all add nice run buffs. additionally, a few slows can also be prevented by having twsnhu up.

no i can't ALWAYS take a pack of 6 solo, but i have done it more than a number of times. and if they don't plan the attack, or i get the jump on the pack, yes it's easy. there are lots of lowbie wargs out there that i can lay waste to. and popping distracting winds and armour of storm/winter on them really works a treat especially if i use a brand before engaging (there are also p2w brands, but i don't use these)

yes more morale means less dps, because you have to sacrifice some will/crit rating/etc. i woulda thought this was obvious.

not trolling, they were lowbies i admit, mostly r3-4ish except the warg who was r9, and the wl and defiler who were both r5, ask the burg if you don't believe me, it was nuparu, actually after that we wen't looking for the group and killed em 2-3 more times, i got nearly 200 kb's that day

tac mit? nah actually they usually trait crit defence, which is usually not high enough to stop me from critting them, and really funny when i have PI up, also i have dev magnitude gear, there's a cool bracelet that increases your dev mag by 25% it nearly always goes off too since so many creep attacks are double/triple attacks, or have bleeds that tick regularly, ba/warg/defiler/reaver/weaver all have bleeds and multi attacks, and if fighting more than 1, once you stabilize yourself, you're golden. plus y'know, the setting of endings, which with 2 is +15% dev mag, so all up +40% dev mag. try it sometime, the hits are phenominal, the braclet is a rare recipe from filikul (turtle) so with that up and lets say a cappy with you.... 25K is not so impossible as it sounds. not generally as high solo, but you assume that all creeps rock 7 AUD and have traited against rk's, to be honest most creeps i know play traited against melee.

teach you awesomeness? ok, here's a pro tip: there are some cool potions you can get from running the rift raid, they give you a lot of fire and shadow mitigation, this is useful against creeps who at moderate to high ranks have fire/shadow as their base damage type. and even at low ranks use skills with those damage types. condescension aside most people actually don't even know about em.

malf, i know that fire takes skill, i was like you mate, one of the few fire rk's back when lightning was crazy good. wish they'd make it how it was Pre-RoI. and you're a damn good fire rk, if i were to say anyone did more fire than me in the day it'd be you.

Originally Posted by Nokor

Lightning relies on chance or luck whatever religion you subscribe to.

Fire relies on high damage with little to no fluctuation.

In my opinion using fire skills and depending on induction skills to harm your target is more difficult than using instant cast skills as a lightning RK. Therefore lightning RKs are ezmode in comparison with fire RKs.

In those 2v1 situations you should always die unless they are Red rank or plain stupid. Neither fire or lightning RKs will survive it.

My server's 1v1 action has nearly been destroyed and roaming solo is close to impossible as most creeps these days have 3 people patrolling their own GY or roaming in 3+ groups. So when I originally chose fire I chose to base it on pew pew. The advantage of fire is the range and MF spam. Lightning is awesome in zerging and pushing forward. Most situations on my server though turns out to be skirmish lines, where fire is superior.

i dislike luck, which is why i pump my crit as high as i can, this removes some of the randomness, also over the course of a fight it does average to what it says, and once you get going, most of your hit's will be crits, the problem people new to lightning face is they stack lots of dps, and forget crit rating, or they overemphasize morale, 1 crit is better than several hundred morale (within reason) you can't do lightning halfheartedly, and i've seen many rk's claiming to be lightning geared with less than 10% crit chance, which horrifies me.

ez mode is a label used by those wishing to make out like they're better, or more right somehow for choosing the opposite option, however, if we want to split hairs, ask anyone who spars or pvp's with regularity, most of em will say more than 50% of the fight is in how you move, if you're standing still, you're losing more than 50% of your effectiveness, and not only is your opponent not subject to you being out of range, line of sighted, ran through, but you have to deal with all this from your opponent. and since they're the ones circling you, they get to dictate the direction (usually clockwise which troubles right handers slightly more) good movement more than makes up for inductions for difficulty, i once saw a r6 defiler auto-attack a hunter to death in a spar without taking a hit, we were all laughing our backsides off at the poor guy. THAT is what good movement can do. btw the defiler was idmel, best defiler i've ever seen.

not true, i 1v2 r6 and above regularly and often willingly go into 1v3's you can't do that with fire, but with lightning it's very possible. don't generalize about lightning what is true for fire, i see rk's here on brandywine do that all the time.

likewise i agree, 1v1's are gone, and there's always a warg pack waiting to gank you halfway through a fight. but skirmish lines are only safe till the creeps push, once they do, you wanna be moving. and fire lets you tag even in lightning traits, if it's tagging you're planning to do. only a stupid creep would stand and let himself be dotted up until he died at long range, he'd just run back through the lines and/or get heals, so i don't see how fire traits is much better in that situation.