Thread: Sapience please anwer - PvMP balance

Originally Posted by Squelcher

Unfortunately I cant post a video and I didnt take screenshots. I was on my BA and had first contact lag so I could hardly see any freeps except for a minstrel, but suffice it to say that I started the induction of screaming shafts when the Tyrant was on 130k morale and by the time it completed, he was dead.

Sorry, I should've been more clear. I was asking for a video of you eating your pants on public television - the part that I bolded.

Originally Posted by Norwrei

Posts like these make me hate creeps and the Moors both. So much prejudice against the Minstrel.. pathetic. ALL the classes have self heal abilities and let's not forget the OP defiler! As I have said before, the Minstrel needs everything it has to compensate for what he does not have and actually needs even more. Stop trying to kill the Minstrel and just become a better player! But then again, let's just kill the Moors.. that's even better. Nerf the RK too.. and LM and champ and everyone else but start with the creeps ok. Thanks.

Defilers OP? You've never set foot in the moors, hmm?

Originally Posted by Thane9

I ranked a Reaver in SoA when there was NO PvE infamy. It took me about a weekend.



I just took a warg to R3 in less than 4 hours of /played. Extrapolating even conservatively means R6 in under 50 hours. That's NOTHING compared to leveling a freep. A SPECK compared to the hundreds of hours required freepside to even GET to the moors.

As for your statistics, 7 defilers above R6 playing in one day isn't really statistically significant.



Not long. In fact, it's nearly nothing in todays terms. I remember when R8 took over a year. Now adays. It's just focused play for LESS THAN FREEPS REQUIRE TO GET IN THE MOORS.



What I'm saying is freeps have no PvMP powercurve. A R5 Champ is pretty close to as powerful as a R14 Champ. In fact, one could suggest the R0 is likely more powerful because he's had more time to raid in PvE...all other things being the same.

And here's a newsflash.

It's ALL faceroll. VERY FEW fights PvE, or PvMp, are non-trivial. It's not about effort or toughness. It's about Time. Time served, nothing more. Never has been never will be.



Editing to add one thing: Across all servers...last week...R6 and above...There were more Defilers who earned infamy than Champions who earned Renown. 344 to 339.

Champions.

Take a minute. Let that sink in. THE sole freepside melee dps class in the game from day one. Supposedly OP. Compared to a creepside Healing class (in EVERY MMO always more rare than dps) added far far later into the development cycle.

http://surugi.com/lotrostats/index.p...ar=2012&rank=6

Champs are tough. Defilers are UP.

Champs are OP if played/geared well, a keyboard turning champ requires OPness to be on par with well played creeps, because they are melee. The only active defilers know they're useless solo, so they group, raid and PvE. Numbers aren't facts until you understand whats behind them. Stats aren't answers by themselves, there are so many factors, especially in this games PvP.

Originally Posted by Lestache

Sorry, I should've been more clear. I was asking for a video of you eating your pants on public television - the part that I bolded.

I didnt notice the bold. Sorry.

It was removed from Television records because I nearly died in the process and blood was seen as too graphic for the T.V. channel in question.

Originally Posted by Garathas

Champs are tough. Defilers are UP.

Champs are OP if played/geared well, a keyboard turning champ requires OPness to be on par with well played creeps, because they are melee. The only active defilers know they're useless solo, so they group, raid and PvE. Numbers aren't facts until you understand whats behind them. Stats aren't answers by themselves, there are so many factors, especially in this games PvP.

Hey, I sometimes earn upwards of 10 infamy/day when I solo on my Defiler. (Solo = throwing gourds at freeps that are taking a keep and hoping that an NPC kills them).

Originally Posted by Squelcher

I didnt notice the bold. Sorry.

It was removed from Television records because I nearly died in the process and blood was seen as too graphic for the T.V. channel in question.

Heh. Had you done that in the U.S., the blood would've been fine as long as you didn't accidentally show a nipple or something.

I hope that you're okay now, and presumably next time you'll choose sweatpants or some other type of pants without a zipper, buttons, or snaps.

Originally Posted by Lestache

Hey, I sometimes earn upwards of 10 infamy/day when I solo on my Defiler. (Solo = throwing gourds at freeps that are taking a keep and hoping that an NPC kills them)

That much o.O

I think I am the only WL on my server who regularly soloes fairly successfully, it's a hard class to master, but it's a blast when you win a fight (3 attempts 2 hours later). I just wish my skills did a bit more damage against well geared, audacity 7 heavies, they almost out regen my dps....

Not relevant to anything, but I wanted to throw that out there.

There is hope, just not very much. Light at the end of the tunnel, but goddamn this tunnel feels long.

Originally Posted by Garathas

That much o.O

I think I am the only WL on my server who regularly soloes fairly successfully, it's a hard class to master, but it's a blast when you win a fight (3 attempts 2 hours later). I just wish my skills did a bit more damage against well geared, audacity 7 heavies, they almost out regen my dps....

I solo a good bit too, but the real reason for it is not out of desire to solo but rather after 10 ranks and over half a million inf on a crummy WL I am feeling lazy.

(First forum post ever!)
Creeps start out with the advantage of not having to lvl to 75! A lot of the complaining about imbalance comes from creeps not being familiar enough with their class, or just being too new in general to LOTRO. Perhaps more content to help develop better creeps? That being said, a creep several ranks higher should be able to kill any low ranked freep. There are many choices for the developers but rather than just raging at the machine I choose to believe that they're carefully weighing options.

I choose to rage at the freeps who'll ninja me while pveing. Especially when I'm at <1k morale! What do they get out of it? I quite frankly am shocked at this behaviour from a person who evidentially has loved the game and must have had much experience working with others to attain that level. I LOVE those who'll stand by and wait til I recover ALL my health! Some especially classy individuals will /bow or /wave. Even if they're still a rank 1 who cleans my clock in 5 seconds, they respectfully allow me to attain my goal at the moment AND they get much more infamy than they otherwise would! Groups of freeps who zerg helpless individuals are even more absurd! .5 infamy per kill? Learn strategy that actually benefits you! Thanks for your feedback and PLEASE educate yourselves about common courtesy if you're an offender and then educate others!

PS- Sapience, you rock!

Originally Posted by Arvaen

So... Any blue names yet? No?

Probably won't be unless someone breaks a rule or folks begin proclaiming that they are quitting. Least it worked out that way in the 'Not on Road Map' thread.

Originally Posted by Garathas

Champs are tough. Defilers are UP.

Champs are OP if played/geared well, a keyboard turning champ requires OPness to be on par with well played creeps, because they are melee. The only active defilers know they're useless solo, so they group, raid and PvE. Numbers aren't facts until you understand whats behind them. Stats aren't answers by themselves, there are so many factors, especially in this games PvP.

I'm not gunna lie, I face-palmed when you only responded to the very end of his post. and vaguely at that.

Originally Posted by Livejazz

Turbine would be better served to drop PvMP entirely, & funnel all of those development resources into making this the best PvE game available.

Just because you don't care about PvMP doesn't mean others do not. Just because a "minority" of us PvMP doesn't mean nobody does. Simply dropping PvMP from the game would be horribly unjust to the people that spent money and tons of time working in Ettenmoors.

Originally Posted by whheydt

Hate to break it to you, but if you want get a reply from Sapience, starting a public thread is NOT the way to do it. Send a private mesage...and then wait. He gets a LOT of PMs and it'll take a while for him to respond.

Now if you're doing the "open letter" bit...then fine. But don't expect a response from anyone other than fellow gamers.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

+1. Hate to say it though, but its become pretty much something that has to be done. Everyone that has an issue with PvP balancing, or to put it another way making the Moors fairer for both sides, should send Sapience a PM. I have not seen one reply to any thread, of this particular topic, on anyones post by any dev!

I really just want to play LOTRO without having the need (and it is a need) to come here to QQ in the hope something is done about the gameplay. I've said it before, every update on the Freep PvE side to LI's, pots, skills, anything that gives increases to B/P/E and mitigations, simply cannot happen update after update with little or usually nothing done to the Creeps. All those little things add up over the months and years. This is how the Moors is in the state it is currently in.

I remember sending Kelsen a PM before RoI with a list of suggestions for the WL class. He said he'd consider it and he also said ''I will be doing a lot more work on the WL class after RoI'', so, PM's from Turbine aren't worth anything, they just lie.

After reading all the walls of text on this thread I decided to put my opinion down.

The only way to truly balance this games pvp in my opinion is to make freepside session play, ie you mirror creep classes and have max level freeps equivalent to the creep classes. Then you have instance pvp battles. Simple

Although I will expect there to still be the same level of nerf this nerf that, it unfair, I spent loads of time on my xxxx class i want to take to to the moors. But at least it will bring balance.

The other idea is to make all but specific pvp gear for freeps work, but again I'm sure there will be people that complain about that.

Its human nature to blame ones tools for a poor job.

Originally Posted by Squelcher

I remember sending Kelsen a PM before RoI with a list of suggestions for the WL class. He said he'd consider it and he also said ''I will be doing a lot more work on the WL class after RoI'', so, PM's from Turbine aren't worth anything, they just lie.

Kelsan got fired remember?

Originally Posted by defrule

Kelsan got fired remember?

That doesn't stop a good victimization rant.

Originally Posted by Chupakabara

Sapience, please give us official answer - will Turbine fix minstrels and wardens in PvMP in near future?

Its really pathetic to look at freep raids that contains of 80% minstrels. Nerf damage or nerf self heals in war speech.

It takes 5-6 creeps to kill a skilled warden, there self heals are just crazy. One warden can solo a keep, w t f?

Will you ever fix this? Give us honest answer please.

PS Dont even want to start discussions about 7k freeps crits or 84 sec uncurable dots.

PPS Please dont spam this thread with messages like "minstrels need damage to solo pve" or "wardens need self heals to tank orthanc". There is already a mechanic of "Not usable in Monster Play" so your PvE could stay in its current state (I raid too so i understand all this)

You conveniently forgot to note the same issue with a creep raid that is War Leader and Defiler heavy. Don't worry b/c creep dps, morale, and heals will be improved so couple that with the Creep:Freep numbers imbalance, short cool downs, inductions and no real penalty to things like March!, maps and at least a 1 week head start on the map while freeps level will all sum up to an OP creep-favored advantage. Well at least on Arkenstone.

Originally Posted by voalkrynn2

You conveniently forgot to note the same issue with a creep raid that is War Leader and Defiler heavy. Don't worry b/c creep dps, morale, and heals will be improved so couple that with the Creep:Freep numbers imbalance, short cool downs, inductions and no real penalty to things like March!, maps and at least a 1 week head start on the map while freeps level will all sum up to an OP creep-favored advantage. Well at least on Arkenstone.

Yup, creep heal heavy raids have no dps and will end up losing vs superior freep dps and healing. Yes it will be improved, but so will freeps. As has been the case every update. And freeps will cry and whine because they can't faceroll for the first month, so creeps will get nerfed. Then freeps will get get and max out legendaries. And then freep domination will once again ensue.

Originally Posted by defrule

Kelsan got fired remember?

I don't think anyone told him. He's still at the same desk I walk past every day. Several times a day.

Since my name was on this thread and it popped back up, I thought I'd poke my head in. Only thing I can really say is if you should probably give the new 'moors a shot before making any final decisions. I know a lot of work went into making some meaningful changes, some of the largest we've made since launch in fact.

Originally Posted by Sapience

I don't think anyone told him. He's still at the same desk I walk past every day. Several times a day.

Since my name was on this thread and it popped back up, I thought I'd poke my head in. Only thing I can really say is if you should probably give the new 'moors a shot before making any final decisions. I know a lot of work went into making some meaningful changes, some of the largest we've made since launch in fact.

I admire the dev work greatly, and am looking forward to creeping on the new map.

But could you very quickly comment on the state of the hunter class in the moors? There had been quite an uproar for a while from pvmp hunters especially, and reports from beta hunters are supposedly "not good".


The entire hunter community would appreciate if you responded

Originally Posted by Lendas

I admire the dev work greatly, and am looking forward to creeping on the new map.

But could you very quickly comment on the state of the hunter class in the moors? There had been quite an uproar for a while from pvmp hunters especially, and reports from beta hunters are supposedly "not good".


The entire hunter community would appreciate if you responded

The state of the hunter remains the same. A high dps class that is deadly when play properly, and feared for ranged dps in RvR and small group, but terrible when played badly as most people do nowdays. Good hunters will be exceptionally better, average hunters will remain average, and bads will get worse.

Don't use beta as an indication of much, yellow gear hunters vs r15 creeps, very balanced lawl

Originally Posted by LordOfPvP

The state of the hunter remains the same. A high dps class that is deadly when play properly, and feared for ranged dps in RvR and small group, but terrible when played badly as most people do nowdays. Good hunters will be exceptionally better, average hunters will remain average, and bads will get worse.

Don't use beta as an indication of much, yellow gear hunters vs r15 creeps, very balanced lawl

Yellow gear? Try full audacity, maxed traits, and best possible jewelry available in crafting. Of course, crafting gear isn't the best there is going to be, but I don't think the difference is going to be that massive.

Then again, I wouldn't expect someone who isn't even in beta to have a clue about it.

I appreciate you agreeing with the rest of my statement, which we both know is true.

Originally Posted by LordOfPvP

The state of the hunter remains the same. A high dps class that is deadly when play properly, and feared for ranged dps in RvR and small group, but terrible when played badly as most people do nowdays. Good hunters will be exceptionally better, average hunters will remain average, and bads will get worse.

Don't use beta as an indication of much, yellow gear hunters vs r15 creeps, very balanced lawl

QFT.

Why anyone uses beta as an indication is beyond me. Every creep is R15 ffs. Wait until YOU play with the changes. Well, not you lendas. You're just...bad.

Originally Posted by LordOfPvP

I appreciate you agreeing with the rest of my statement, which we both know is true.

Mmm... That was going to lead into my next statement. Things have only gotten worse for hunters on Bull Roarer. Our damage has actually dropped, and our survivability has not increased to compensate for it. Additionally, with all of the new creep goodies, there is almost nothing we can do to survive out there solo. Reaver's updated wrath heals for 500-700 a tick, Spider's reflect is 15 seconds of near suicide, BA's moving target remains ever-powerful against hunters, warleader's mits and morale have spiked up to extremely high levels, and defiler's healing has increased greatly as well.

So I'll say it again. I wouldn't expect much coming from someone who isn't even on beta.

Originally Posted by avengingbananaslug

I really get the feeling it's mostly creeps complaining on here and that's why they keep getting unneeded buffs like warfs getting a completely unnecessary health stealing ability when they're already OP. People complain about minis but WLs are way more OP in a raid from a healing standpoint. 3 WLs together is way stronger than 3 minis healing wise because of how ridiculous they are to kill. Minis can be burned down fairly easily but WLs can just get their bubbles up and stay alive indefinitely.

This is not to mention of course those wargs which can stay alive no matter what. Burgs can HIPs but you never see burg packs and if you get on a burg they die a lot quicker than wargs.

Errmm, what game re you playing? Defiantly not LOTRO