Thread: Sapience please anwer - PvMP balance

Originally Posted by doug01

Not sure you have the right guy. I never said low ranked creeps are used for farming comms, In fact I dont believe that all. I think all creeps farm comms. I think all high ranked creep were at one point low ranked so to assume the only purpose that low ranked creeps are played is to farm comms is absurd. .

It's ok, I'll link it for you:

Originally Posted by doug01

Even if you start at rank 6, creeps outnumber freeps 4:3. You can still try to argue those are just keep flipper though.

Here you infer that all creeps above rank 6 that are logged in during the day, even if it's for only a few infamy points, must be counted as active PvPers and simply 'not keep flippers'.

Like I said; my lowest raked toon is 7, I have three rank 8's and two rank 9's. At the moment I only play two toons with any regularity while the other 4 are simply to farm deeds, maps, daily's for commendations.

So if we take your 4:3 numbers and accept that many people, like myself, have high ranked creeps that are used for nothing more than farming commendations; Then my first statement looks more like being true.

That is:

If you discount the creeps that are farming commendations and therefore not participating in PvP, the creep number "advantage" will not be as great as you would have people believe.

Right now the concept of the 'Moors is as follows: "Get whatever you can, by any means necessary , in the expense of every other player, either it be freep or creep". PvMP , and maybe PVP in general was always fun in the expense of others; at least that's what I've experienced so far. PvMP is dying and Turbine is trying to salvage whatever they can.

Originally Posted by VincentVanPort

Firstly to Untg99: Yea we tried that, it was quite succesful too. But it was still a matter of offering them something. So in order to make a warg pack of around 6 come up to ambush the one High Value target, you would have to make sure they would beat you, so we stayed as two hunters and one warden. Ambush and the 5 second knockdown was enough to kill off one warg at least. Still if we had offered less incentive, like adding a captain and therefore surivability, there would have been no success in it since there would not have been any more fights. This was before RoI though. With the brands and stuff this might not work again on these targets.

You need someone tanky enough to bait, but not too tanky enough to make any of them run off (DPS warden/heal traited cappy for example). Everyone else should be mounted up, roughly 200-150m away on horseback, the bait person needs to have a form of LoS at around 2 or 3 angles surrounding him to be super effective, so it narrows the chance of immediate help, and makes it harder for wargs to tell if it's a setup ambush.

Worst that can happen is they can all use sprint and hips to get away. And, unless they trait hips now, only their sprint will be back up once they come out again. Do a similar baiting thing, with a different person and just CC them throough their sprint, and focus fire too. If you can pick one target off at a time, not all of them will sprint in sync (Therefore limiting big AoE's and stuff).

Originally Posted by Untg99

You need someone tanky enough to bait, but not too tanky enough to make any of them run off (DPS warden/heal traited cappy for example). Everyone else should be mounted up, roughly 200-150m away on horseback, the bait person needs to have a form of LoS at around 2 or 3 angles surrounding him to be super effective, so it narrows the chance of immediate help, and makes it harder for wargs to tell if it's a setup ambush.

Worst that can happen is they can all use sprint and hips to get away. And, unless they trait hips now, only their sprint will be back up once they come out again. Do a similar baiting thing, with a different person and just CC them throough their sprint, and focus fire too. If you can pick one target off at a time, not all of them will sprint in sync (Therefore limiting big AoE's and stuff).

Out of curiosity, how are the creeps to know that a warden is traited for DPS or the Captain is traited for heals, other than perhaps by reputation?

Originally Posted by Lestache

Out of curiosity, how are the creeps to know that a warden is traited for DPS or the Captain is traited for heals, other than perhaps by reputation?

Reckon a captain with sword and board wouldn't be dps, and they should be sword and board if healing considering the survivability gain far outweighs the dps loss. No idea for warden, but you'd find out pretty fast after engagement.

PvMP is and has been about schadenfreude. Now more than ever.

Originally Posted by ksjock

Here you infer that all creeps above rank 6 that are logged in during the day, even if it's for only a few infamy points, must be counted as active PvPers and simply 'not keep flippers'.

What you "infer"ed isn't what I said.

Originally Posted by ksjock

Like I said; my lowest raked toon is 7, I have three rank 8's and two rank 9's. At the moment I only play two toons with any regularity while the other 4 are simply to farm deeds, maps, daily's for commendations.

I did a quick search just your creeps on E and other than two creeps your other creeps have seen far more weeks of NO ACTIVITY than weeks with activity this year. What does this mean?

You're FOS.

Frankly @ the people saying Freep takes longer to gear than Creep...


Use the store accelerators and stuff. New Creeps are pretty much FORCED into using the store, this complaint that Freep takes longer strikes me as somewhat dishonest. Leveling a Freep can take longer, sure, but the process isn't nearly as painful.

Originally Posted by Lestache

Out of curiosity, how are the creeps to know that a warden is traited for DPS or the Captain is traited for heals, other than perhaps by reputation?

Well, for the Warden at least their stance is a pretty good indicator of what they intend to do. It isn't definite though.

Originally Posted by Sulfur

PvMP is and has been about schadenfreude. Now more than ever.

I'd say this is true for most freeps, and then the hard-assed creeps that just want revenge against the easymoding fail freep zerglings.

There's still people who play just for the fun of it. That's what makes the game for me.

Originally Posted by doug01

I did a quick search just your creeps on E and other than two creeps your other creeps have seen far more weeks of NO ACTIVITY than weeks with activity this year. What does this mean?

You're FOS.

No, it's exactly like I said. Every one of my creeps is over rank 7 and apart from 2 toons the others are only logged in to flip an OP or a keep if my first choice are on CD. You must have noticed that my BA and Warg are logged on almost every day? Now if every creep did what I do than you could 1/2 the actual number of creeps those statistics say are on every day and all of a sudden the number advantage you are relying on is gone.

Also I named my spider as the main toon I have farmed on because prior to U6 it only had a crude Isen Map, now it has good. My BA also ground out Good Isen and my WL has got poor Isen since U6.

Every day many, many times creeps post in \ooc to flip OP's then a few minutes later they post again saying something like; pm me when you swap to an alt and we'll flip another. It's because of this your rank 6 and up 4:3 ratio of creeps:freeps is as meaningless as any other conclusion you want to base on the statistics you are forming your argument on.

You have no way to know how many creep accounts are logged in per day compared to freep accounts. If you had access to this information you could make a valid argument. At the moment all your argument really boils down to is; 'I think creeps outnumber freeps most of the time and if your experience is different to mine, you are mistaken.'

Come play Ausi time on E as a creep, almost every night, almost every fight, creeps will be outnumbered 2:1 while a quick check of non anon creeps will show that there are at least as many creeps logged on as freeps in the raid. So what are 15 odd creeps doing? Some are spying, some are PvEing and some are AFK but the fact remains; the creeps that are actively PvPing are out numbered.

So my final question to you is this: Considering that the statistics are an unreliable source to use; What makes your experience more valid to draw conclusions on then mine?

Originally Posted by ksjock

No, it's exactly like I said. Every one of my creeps is over rank 7 and apart from 2 toons the others are only logged in to flip an OP or a keep if my first choice are on CD. You must have noticed that my BA and Warg are logged on almost every day? Now if every creep did what I do than you could 1/2 the actual number of creeps those statistics say are on every day and all of a sudden the number advantage you are relying on is gone.

You "inferred" that you are logging in and at least PvEing on all 6 of your toons regularly which, if you assume others do the same, that would bloat the creep popluation numbers. You don't log in regularly on all 6 of your toons, not even close to regularly. I typically log in and play two toons in the moors in the course of a week, by your standard the number of freeps could be 1/2 the number shown.

Every day many, many times creeps post in \ooc to flip OP's then a few minutes later they post again saying something like; pm me when you swap to an alt and we'll flip another. It's because of this your rank 6 and up 4:3 ratio of creeps:freeps is as meaningless as any other conclusion you want to base on the statistics you are forming your argument on.

And what make you think the same isn't taking place freepside? I've seen it before on the small server I play on, there's no doubt it happens on larger servers and more often at that. Creeps roll map red, log to freep, roll it blue again, rinse and repeat.

You have no way to know how many creep accounts are logged in per day compared to freep accounts. If you had access to this information you could make a valid argument. At the moment all your argument really boils down to is; 'I think creeps outnumber freeps most of the time and if your experience is different to mine, you are mistaken.'

Right and wrong. I do lack the information you noted, so without data to support an assumption one way or another I treat BOTH sides the same.

Some are spying, some are PvEing and some are AFK but the fact remains; the creeps that are actively PvPing are out numbered.

Fact? OR your opinion. If its a fact show me the source that isn't anecdotal?

So my final question to you is this: Considering that the statistics are an unreliable source to use; What makes your experience more valid to draw conclusions on then mine?

What you're not getting is that you can make excuses about how the data is skewed one way or another, but those excuses are based solely on nothing other than personal opinion and anecdotal evidence. In otherwords, nothing substantial to anyone other than the beholder.

The only people with the information to make the correct calls on balance have given us the moors as is. They could easily buff creep to keep pace with PvE content. They don't. Why? Who knows; Turbine has been silent on thier approach to balancing the moors. What we do know is that in a 1:1 comparision, creeps get the shaft. We also know that at inception the game was balance around creeps having numbers. Now there was a post by a dev saying they were trying to move "closer" to an equal footing for creeps. Who decides what is "closer"?. When you factor in the little actual real data we have for population numbers...renown/infamy flow tends to indicate it's not all that bad. If we were playing in instanced PvP where numbers on each side are set, then I'd be right with creeps calling for buffs. IF..IF... We aren't. We play in OPvP and the "balance" needs to consider the numbers on each side on average.

Originally Posted by doug01

They could easily buff creep to keep pace with PvE content. They don't. Why? Who knows; Turbine has been silent on thier approach to balancing the moors.

Rise of Isengard was Update 4, now Update 7.1 patch notes are in Bullroarer section. Still no Minstrel nerf.

Turbine is not buffing creeps or nerfing obviously OP classes simply because they dont give a #### about Moors. This thread is here for a week, still no reply from ANYONE from Turbine, not even a "We are investigating this problem" or "We are looking closer to the balance issues". They are silent on their approach because they dont have one. The only balance they care about is your bank balance.

I really hope that GW2 would finally be the game that wont fail, Turbine really needs a big slap to get back to reality.

/weeping at the Update 7.1 notes.

No Warden or Mini nerf (or creep buff to put creeps on the same level).
Nothing being done about Commendations.
Nothing for Creeps what-so-ever
*Continued Weeping*

Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk

Frankly @ the people saying Freep takes longer to gear than Creep...


Use the store accelerators and stuff. New Creeps are pretty much FORCED into using the store, this complaint that Freep takes longer strikes me as somewhat dishonest. Leveling a Freep can take longer, sure, but the process isn't nearly as painful.
.

I respectfully disagree. Sorry we don't see eye to eye. But in my experience freepside grind is significantly longer than R9 as a creep. And if you start adding in store bought skills, R9 isn't really necessary most creep classes would be pretty successful closer to R6-7, which is VERY much less grind than freepside.

Originally Posted by Chupakabara

Create a reaver. Play on peak hours only. Dont feed him comms from freep or high level creeps. Rank him to r7, get yor maps (yeah, TR map also), skills, audacity, corruptions and so on. Do /played. Tell us the result. Do it now, in the current state of balance with current comms grind.

Commendations are not nearly as bad as people make them out to be for new characters. I have recently taken a creep to 2/3 of the way to r9 with my 15 maps and a few extra swap corruptions in 6d 4h (it was a spider which is humorous considering what you say in this post). I will be past r9 before a week /played passes. I have made commitments to people in other games so I don't have the time currently but if I did I suppose I could make a LP showing how to do it.

Originally Posted by Chupakabara

I do PvE and I do PvP. I have 5 lvl 75 toons. Ive done ToO with all of them, have top tier jewelery, ToO set, draigoch cloak, maxxed out LIs (my main has FA, others have SA), legacies and so on. So i know what I am talking about.

You have 5 maxed characters? I'm impressed, I currently play on the most populated server with the most active raiding kins and I have yet to even see a single truly maxed character. That's what I was responding to... a person saying a player could completely max out a freep before taking a creep to even r10.

Originally Posted by Chupakabara

PvE is a faceroll grind. All you need is time. PvP is the same grind for comms where you are constantly ganked by freeps and can do nothing with it. If you play on mornings it may take you month to get to r8, if you play on peak hours you may rage quit after a week.

Not the point, ranking a creep takes nothing more than time as well. As for people taking a month to get to r8 playing in the mornings that is their choice, server communities don't hide their peak hours if you play at a different time and it's so slow you can't do anything the option is there to move to a server that is more in line with your hours. And the issue with most people quitting after the first week (or before) has little to do with anything other than not being fully informed and leaving out necessary things thus ending up just running head first into freep (or creep) raids again and again.

Originally Posted by Chupakabara

n38 wrote about 15 solo kills per hour. Yeah sure, but you cant kill anyone solo till at least rank 6-7.

Maybe... if all freeps came out of GV completely maxed out and knowing how to even basically PvP. Of course some creeps will have a harder time if they try to go up against every single person at r0 (the way it is currently set up it's pretty hard to actually get into a fight before r3 if you are properly setting up your character). And that's all beside the point as the 15 solo kills and hour is just a point of reference if it makes you feel better when you do get up to r6-7 the number goes down to an average of ~13. If you would like I could also say 30 kills in a duo or ~45 in a trio? Or ~125-188 kills in a full raid (variables include leaches, target rating, and NPC involvement so the numbers here are difficult).

And let's also keep in mind I said 500-1500 or more I don't expect a r0 creep to walk away with 1500+ per hour solo unless they have made quite a large purchase from the store or they are following a rather successful yet slow witted raid.

Originally Posted by Chupakabara

I ranked my warg and i was trying to rank a spider. Its fn crazy, i cant kill anyone, i cant pew pew cuz of range, i cant even do a fn quests cuz Im being constantly ganked by pathetic freeps (killing r0-r2 creeps that are trying to quest is pathetic). TR is constantly blue in my playing time, TA is blue in 70% of time. HH is full of ganking teams, ID as well. Raid leaders wont take me to the raid because of low rank.

I'm not going to get into my opinions about the spider class, but I will say it is one of the easiest classes to rank up solo especially now that it takes so little time to get to WtE and a heal a DD attack and another DoT was added to lower the ranks. This one is a player issue I'm sure if you look hard enough you will find someone on your server who plays well on spider that you can emulate, if not try another server, there's nothing wrong with that I've had many players roll characters on my server from others looking for tips or just basic help with their class.

As for your map issues that is a community issue, do something about it. If it really is that bad I'm sure there are others that would be willing to join you for a keep take. Though I have had to put up with similar issues before on certain servers and I still managed to get my maps, TR offers the most quests for a reason every time you take it you have the ability to add 9+ quests completed to your deed (similarly Lugazag offers the fewest quests but is expected to be in creep control primarily).

Originally Posted by Chupakabara

Im not QQ about how PvP works, OK its normal. Im only trying to say that you cant just say "freeps need this this this this and that and creeps need only to rank". If you play other creep character than warg its is a long and frustrating journey.

I very much so can, especially when the point the person is attempting to make is (as I said earlier) it takes less time to completely max out a freep than it does to get even 400k infamy.

Originally Posted by l4j

What's worse, they seem to consider doing hundreds of different quests, in different areas, with different options, to be a "Grind." A lot of the argument seems to be centered on how long it takes, without any consideration of what they're doing during that time.

Don't like starting in the shire? Head to Archet. Don't like Erid Luine? Head to Celondim (sorry, don't care about spelling this morning). Rather do Lone Lands than North Downs? Enjoy. Want to spend extra time in Forochel because the skies are cool? Go for it. Hate Angmar because it reminds you of parts of New Jersey? Then knock out the few quests you need and move on.

Not even close to the point.

And BTW I personally feel that heading over to the next quest hub is far more of a "grind" to me than map deeds on a fresh character or just PvPing on a older character. The fact that people even call commendations a "grind" is insane to me as I have never gone out of my way for commendations even after starting new creeps or getting max audacity on 4 creeps (almost there on the fifth) and a set bonus here and there for my freeps.

Originally Posted by apb8808

Yeah I dont get the "Freeps have to grind blah blah" I also geared/virute/LI's out 4 75 toons, and I'd gear out 4 more before I'd start a reaver again from scratch. Why? Because I didn't experience any frustration and could progress on MY terms. My reaver taught me a lot about patience and frankly, was unenjoyable.

The only freep character in your sig that shows up on the leaderboards is your captain and though I can't see your gear because the leaderboards are broken the stats shown are not those of a well geared player.

Regardless... If you honestly felt that frustrated PvPing on your reaver you should just not PvP on it. In my hundreds of thousands of infamy over my main reaver and further hundreds of thousands on alt reavers I have seldom felt truly frustrated and when I did it had little to do with the performance of the class and I would have been frustrated on any class on either side in that situation.

Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk

Frankly @ the people saying Freep takes longer to gear than Creep...


Use the store accelerators and stuff. New Creeps are pretty much FORCED into using the store, this complaint that Freep takes longer strikes me as somewhat dishonest. Leveling a Freep can take longer, sure, but the process isn't nearly as painful.

Creeps are hardly forced into using the store and certainly not more so than they were prior to commendations, if those few that are buying r2-5 skills would actually set their character up properly they would not need to spend those Turbine points.

And if we want to talk about store purchases to accelerate the process take a look at the 3h duration +20% infamy(/renown) buffs, those are far more helpful in this regard than deed accelerators ever will be and far, far cheaper.

BTW the process is only hard is you go head first into it without forethought. Which is why that issue should be solved by education instead of crying on the forums.

./rant on

This game does nothing to educate it's player base for the actual PvP (or similar issues such as character preparation) and while I understand why and I refrain from asking for some sort of TF2-ish practice tutorial because it has been left in the hands of the communities who have chosen to do little or nothing.

Take a look at any MMORPG you want if it has PvP you will find not just a few guides for each class and sub guides from there but you'll find an almost excessive amount. Along with that you have people streaming PvP for the other games (emulation based rather than a informative guide) and PvP videos showing everything a person would need to do or know within seconds of starting the search.

Now take a look at what LOTRO PvP guides are out there, take your time you might be a while... Yeah. And then take a look at the videos offered to players looking to improve themselves, if you find an actual guide on youtube for any class in the moors I'd like the link to take a look as I have not found one since roughly Taugrim's(IIRC) reaver videos.

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Category:PvMP_Guides

http://www.lotro.com/news/1496-what-is-monster-play

There you go, the place casual players are most likely to go for information it's about as barren and outdated as it gets in some cases.

You do have a few fan sites offering rough guides but in my experience reading those they are not nearly where they should be and I feel a large amount of it is written in a very "debbie downer" type of way telling people over and over what they can't do.

And BTW the "just don't try" guides are not even worth mentioning, a guide should be showing a person what they can do and people need to adjust for their own abilities from there. If I see another "wargs are not tanks" and "you need to join up with other wargs to be successful" "guide" I'm going to kill the furriest thing withing 50m of myself and mail it the the writer.

./rant off

Originally Posted by Delmore

so many opinions. Good reads, bad reads...PVE making like they own the game...again

First thing I will say, is I'm a raider. I lead raids on Elendilmir as well as small tribe groups or just small groups in general. I pretty much don't solo. There are times here and there that I do...but it is rare. And I play a spider 99.999999% of the time. When I have solo'd...I get beat by some classes (minstrel included), and I beat some. I hear a lot of complaining about a couple classes being overpowered, and freeps in general having the stronger hand...This is probably true. I for one will be someone that thinks that the minstrels have a few more resources then what would be considered fair in a 1v1.

So my thought process is this... This is a sandbox PVP area. It is open. there are no solo areas for 1v1s. There are no arenas. and this is an MMO. Massive MULTIPLAYER Online RPG. My guess is, that Turbine has designed the moors for group play. Creeps are weaker. Stop running into a group of 3 by yourself like a dolt and then complaining about it that they are op.

I find this amusing, Being a lower creep in SOA like all the others. A lot of creeps are saying it needs to go back to SOA. (I agree. that was the most fun) but Balance? Do you not remember that 1 freep could still take on 2 to 3 creeps. Is that different than today? Not really. The real difference is, that back then, it took probably 5 minutes for those 3 creeps to die. Now it takes 2 minutes. That, and 4 years later, people are more heated due to a long time of balance swings, False reports of updates, and general spit on by the community.

But back to what I was saying. After having some really heavy fights this weekend on E, I was looking at some of the statistics behind it. Raiding for probably 4-5 hours saturday night. Creep raid had probably 18-20 + Tag alongs. Freep raid had 24 + Tag alongs. Creeps tracked 34. I dont know what freeps had on track. Probably about the same. multiple Engagements led to wipes on both sides. Overall at the end of the night infamy/renoun wise, Freeps won coming in with 11K-12K Renoun while creeps pulled in 8K-9K. However. a 2K difference tells me something. The balance wasn't too far off. Both sides wiped, both sides came out close in points, and no one was thinking that OMG OP so and so.

So I have to come to this mind set. It is a multiplayer game. Group up. If you get smacked by a warg pack. Get your friends. If you get rolled by a group of minstrels, or a group of anything...Group up. That is what the moors are meant to be in my opinion.


Oh and I have said this before and I will say it again. People that say "oh this is a pve game...no moors blah blah blah" until Turbine comes out and says "we do not support PVP because it isn't supposed to be here", it is part of the game and deserves to be looked at just like your precious raids do...so pipe down and realize it is here. It is a product of the game and being that it requires a subscription to play freep, probably one of the few things that pay the bills. So being that we pay for your raid...We get a say. Bye bye

One day I'll find you solo :P. but yea what yicky says is true.

Any freeps who think the balance in this game doesnt need to be addressed should ask themselves why there is a substantial population of high ranked mainly freep players who are pushing for improvements to creeps.

Originally Posted by n38

The only freep character in your sig that shows up on the leaderboards is your captain and though I can't see your gear because the leaderboards are broken the stats shown are not those of a well geared player.

Regardless... If you honestly felt that frustrated PvPing on your reaver you should just not PvP on it. In my hundreds of thousands of infamy over my main reaver and further hundreds of thousands on alt reavers I have seldom felt truly frustrated and when I did it had little to do with the performance of the class and I would have been frustrated on any class on either side in that situation.

I can't see any of your creeps, so I'll just assume your entire post is fabrication? Yes, I was frustrated PvPing on my reaver, back in the days of greenies and you didn't get charge until r3. On your huge server( that you supposedly play on) getting that may not have been an issue but on a smaller one where I originally played it was difficult. No raids to join, any time I asked for advice/help in OOC I was met with "Earn your stripes greenie." Since I can't see all your reaver alts I really can't comment on all the success you have had and will have to take you at your word.

Your elaborate, anonymous posts are all well spoken but it really comes down to a simple question, how often as you level a freep, killing x amount of npcs for virtues, leveling LI's, etc., is your progress directly inhibited by another player? i.e. Another player completely prevents you from progressing in anyway and can kill you.

I took an RK, Guardian, Champion and a Captain up to 75 doing the virutes/crafting/gear along the way and I never experienced the aggravation of my progression being hampered by other players that I did while on a lowbie creep. That is simply my experience and that is why I said I would level x amount of freeps before ranking a reaver from scratch again.

A quick comparison of time spent on my toons.

Harmlesspuppy: R10 Warg. 581k infamy, ~50k from R11 at the moment.

2 weeks 2 days 16 hours 13 minutes 46 seconds.

Belieber: R2 Burglar. Average gear (draigoch set, crafted blue jewellery)

2 weeks 2 days 6 hours 7 minutes 23 seconds

Seems to me like it takes around the same time to get a decently geared freep and ranked creep.

Originally Posted by Squelcher

Any freeps who think the balance in this game doesnt need to be addressed should ask themselves why there is a substantial population of high ranked mainly freep players who are pushing for improvements to creeps.

The answer is pretty easy. Most players who PvP want to even numbered fights were skill matters more that what class you're playing. Ill even take it one step further in saying specifically in regards to 1v1 fights.

Now, I think freeps and creeps would love even number fights. Fights were skill, movement, knowldege of your class and your oppenents decide the winner.

If you haven't noticed, even number fights are the exception to the rule in OPvP. OPvP is almost entirely about numbers. And right now creeps have the numbers.

As to "mainly freeps who are pushing" I think thats a fallacy and you'd be hard pressed to prove that. In this thread alone its almost entirely players who creep mainly. Don't let forum signatures fool you.

Is there an issue in 1v1s, heck yea. Are the moors an arena style set-up where 1v1s are something to be considered, not even remotely.

Read Yicky's post. Its probably the best in this thread and most likely reflects the current 'moors. Do freeps have an upper hand, yea, but its no were near out of balance as the drama queens posting on the forums would lead you to believe.

Originally Posted by Squelcher

Any freeps who think the balance in this game doesnt need to be addressed should ask themselves why there is a substantial population of high ranked mainly freep players who are pushing for improvements to creeps.

Perspective.

Simple as that.

Originally Posted by apb8808

I can't see any of your creeps, so I'll just assume your entire post is fabrication? Yes, I was frustrated PvPing on my reaver, back in the days of greenies and you didn't get charge until r3. On your huge server( that you supposedly play on) getting that may not have been an issue but on a smaller one where I originally played it was difficult. No raids to join, any time I asked for advice/help in OOC I was met with "Earn your stripes greenie." Since I can't see all your reaver alts I really can't comment on all the success you have had and will have to take you at your word.

Whether or not I even play this game makes no difference until the point at which my statements hold no weight. You'd chosen to mention your characters doing something that was not true or at the very least not visible from the outside.

Regardless, I started and ranked my first reaver before charge was even in the game and I still didn't find myself as frustrated as you seem to be with the class.

And that doesn't even matter because it seems as though you would as I said feel the same frustration regardless of class or side. "Earn your stripes greenie" is not class specific, and if anything reavers get into raid the easiest at lower ranks. As for people responding in that way to you that just goes back to what I said earlier it's a community issue.

Originally Posted by apb8808

Your elaborate, anonymous posts are all well spoken but it really comes down to a simple question, how often as you level a freep, killing x amount of npcs for virtues, leveling LI's, etc., is your progress directly inhibited by another player? i.e. Another player completely prevents you from progressing in anyway and can kill you.

Grouping/raiding is required to max out a character, have you never needed to pug something or had a kin member or 2 insist on a different instance? That doesn't often lead to death but it surely can, I know I have been killed quite a few times in raids because of stupidity induced wipes, which in turn eventually lead to people leaving and halting progression further.

Originally Posted by apb8808

I took an RK, Guardian, Champion and a Captain up to 75 doing the virutes/crafting/gear along the way and I never experienced the aggravation of my progression being hampered by other players that I did while on a lowbie creep. That is simply my experience and that is why I said I would level x amount of freeps before ranking a reaver from scratch again.

I am primarily a solo player so my character seldom stays as a "lowbie" for long enough to have that sort of effect on me.

But I suppose in the same regard your play style has a similar effect on your PvE. I don't know when you started this game or how you play on either side but I have certainly without a doubt have seen far more frustration come from my PvE. Hundreds upon hundreds of HoC runs for an anvil, ~90 CD runs for berghelm, ~30 treasury runs for my first amber ring and another ~50 for my second, I don't even know how many rift runs I did specifically for the damn bell, ~40 runs for the uru CDR chest, ~110 SG runs for my first lvl65 second age (That I immediately tossed as it was so bad it wasn't even worth the IXP I put into it.), ~80 GS(EM) runs for gold hoop earring, ~130 GS(HM) runs for a set of cuffs, and ~60 skum queen side runs for pendevig-clog. That's just some off the top of my head for a single character there are more just as bad if not worse not only on the same character on my others as well.

As you may be able to tell from my posts I am a perfectionist it is far more frustrating and far, far harder to keep a freep at a satisfactory point than creep side ever was or will be.

Originally Posted by doug01

but its no were near out of balance as the drama queens posting on the forums would lead you to believe.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^

ttthhhhhhhhhhhiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiisssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

Originally Posted by n38

Grouping/raiding is required to max out a character, have you never needed to pug something or had a kin member or 2 insist on a different instance? That doesn't often lead to death but it surely can, I know I have been killed quite a few times in raids because of stupidity induced wipes, which in turn eventually lead to people leaving and halting progression further.

So you are saying that freeps who kill creeps that are trying to level are stupid induced? Freeps do not have someone actively trying to kill them (save for NPCs, but really, come on, NPCs?) while lowbie creeps have reknown-hungry freeps hunting them down like crazy. Are you actually calling the freeps stupid?

Originally Posted by Felajarko

So you are saying that freeps who kill creeps that are trying to level are stupid induced? Freeps do not have someone actively trying to kill them (save for NPCs, but really, come on, NPCs?) while lowbie creeps have reknown-hungry freeps hunting them down like crazy. Are you actually calling the freeps stupid?

No, I think that he's saying that freeps also have things that can hinder their progression that are sometimes out of their control, and one such example is a group wipe caused by someone's (stupid) mistake; as opposed to the idea that seems to be running throughout this thread that freeps gear up and get ready for the Moors with nary a hindrance to be seen. The (il)logical leap you took seems unfounded at best.

Originally Posted by Lestache

No, I think that he's saying that freeps also have things that can hinder their progression that are sometimes out of their control, and one such example is a group wipe caused by someone's (stupid) mistake; as opposed to the idea that seems to be running throughout this thread that freeps gear up and get ready for the Moors with nary a hindrance to be seen. The (il)logical leap you took seems unfounded at best.

So YOU are saying creeps are killed by stupid mistakes (freeps)?

And of course the leaps I just took here are illogical. they fit, but are not realistic. Freeps have 75 levels to LEARN their character. they know the ins and outs of what their toon can do and how to do it. I took a break from my warg and BA during the anniversary fest to make the other creep classes to try them out. The new toons were zerged instantly. I was no match for anything. If r0 freep and r0 creep are equal, then the r0 creep player should have comparable skills (NOT EXACTLY THE SAME) as the r0 freep. They should be bale to know what the toon can do like the freep player. But do they?

I am not going to argue that freeps don't grind. I have many freeps on many servers and the grind can be mind numbing. But a freep can get tired of say, Evendim and go somewhere else to level up. Change of scenery. The freep straight out of the intro area gets about 65 levels to learn and grow their character without having someone MALICIOUSLY attacking them. Lowbie creeps step out of Grams to kill a few leeches and get zerged. And their three or four meager skills will not save them.

Originally Posted by Felajarko

So YOU are saying creeps are killed by stupid mistakes (freeps)?

And of course the leaps I just took here are illogical. they fit, but are not realistic. Freeps have 75 levels to LEARN their character. they know the ins and outs of what their toon can do and how to do it. I took a break from my warg and BA during the anniversary fest to make the other creep classes to try them out. The new toons were zerged instantly. I was no match for anything. If r0 freep and r0 creep are equal, then the r0 creep player should have comparable skills (NOT EXACTLY THE SAME) as the r0 freep. They should be bale to know what the toon can do like the freep player. But do they?

I am not going to argue that freeps don't grind. I have many freeps on many servers and the grind can be mind numbing. But a freep can get tired of say, Evendim and go somewhere else to level up. Change of scenery. The freep straight out of the intro area gets about 65 levels to learn and grow their character without having someone MALICIOUSLY attacking them. Lowbie creeps step out of Grams to kill a few leeches and get zerged. And their three or four meager skills will not save them.

On the upside, it doesn't take all that long to learn how to use those three or four skills.

As for freeps, with the way the game is designed now a fair number of new freeps (perhaps most? I have no way of knowing for sure) get to level 75 without ever having to group up, which means that they're not learning a lot of how their skills work in a group, which I think is kind of important. Believe me, it's quite possible to hit the level cap and barely understand what your class can do (I was there myself once, way back in SoA). Just because a freep is level 75 doesn't mean he knows what he's doing, just the same as a creep being R9 doesn't mean that creep has mastered his class.

It's also something else to learn how to play against landscape PvE content - in which mobs are generally kind enough to stand still for you and let you hit them - and another thing entirely to learn how to play against mobs that don't seem willing to stand still (aka creeps).

Look, I'm not saying that one side has it harder or easier than the other; both sides have their challenges. If you want to boil it down to nothing more than "but freeps don't get ganked while they're leveling up", then yes - that's absolutely correct. But there's far more to developing one's character (freep or creep) than simply whether or not it might get zerged.

Originally Posted by Lestache

On the upside, it doesn't take all that long to learn how to use those three or four skills.

As for freeps, with the way the game is designed now a fair number of new freeps (perhaps most? I have no way of knowing for sure) get to level 75 without ever having to group up, which means that they're not learning a lot of how their skills work in a group, which I think is kind of important. Believe me, it's quite possible to hit the level cap and barely understand what your class can do (I was there myself once, way back in SoA). Just because a freep is level 75 doesn't mean he knows what he's doing, just the same as a creep being R9 doesn't mean that creep has mastered his class.

It's also something else to learn how to play against landscape PvE content - in which mobs are generally kind enough to stand still for you and let you hit them - and another thing entirely to learn how to play against mobs that don't seem willing to stand still (aka creeps).

Look, I'm not saying that one side has it harder or easier than the other; both sides have their challenges. If you want to boil it down to nothing more than "but freeps don't get ganked while they're leveling up", then yes - that's absolutely correct. But there's far more to developing one's character (freep or creep) than simply whether or not it might get zerged.

I will agree with you that all players, freep and creep need to learn to play group, at least for survivability sake. I also agree that PvE is very different than PvP. But I WILL say that freeps have it significantly easier than creeps. Whether they group or not, freeps do have a LOT more skills than creeps upon entering the moors as well as a better idea of what those skills do. the learning curve is rougher for creeps than freeps. As it is, creeps may as well be crepes to freeps right now.

And I had to LOL at your skill comment. Well played sir.....

Originally Posted by Felajarko

So you are saying that freeps who kill creeps that are trying to level are stupid induced? Freeps do not have someone actively trying to kill them (save for NPCs, but really, come on, NPCs?) while lowbie creeps have reknown-hungry freeps hunting them down like crazy. Are you actually calling the freeps stupid?

...Well...

...Yeah...

...Hmm...

Lestache answered regarding the actual meaning of my statement so I'll save myself the time there.

Though that's not to say that creeps don't cause their death because they are acting stupid but that works both ways...
honestly this post is hard to really reply to as I have no idea what you feel you read.

Originally Posted by Felajarko

I will agree with you that all players, freep and creep need to learn to play group, at least for survivability sake. I also agree that PvE is very different than PvP. But I WILL say that freeps have it significantly easier than creeps. Whether they group or not, freeps do have a LOT more skills than creeps upon entering the moors as well as a better idea of what those skills do. the learning curve is rougher for creeps than freeps. As it is, creeps may as well be crepes to freeps right now.

On average creeps have more skills that are used more often than freeps in the moors.

I'll take 5 skills developed with PvP in mind over 10 PvE based skills any day.

This isn't b11 SoA every creep class has 2+ bars worth of skills now and they all have their place and very few of them are just plain wrong to use in a PvP situation, the same cannot be said about freeps skills which include a range of skills that are plain and simple a waste of combat time to use. Combined with a large amount of PvE based skills that have little or no effect such as taunts and detaunts.

For that reason and others mentioned earlier the learning curve is actually higher for freeps who's learning curve is hindered by learning up until that point counterproductive play styles for PvP.

Originally Posted by n38

Whether or not I even play this game makes no difference until the point at which my statements hold no weight. You'd chosen to mention your characters doing something that was not true or at the very least not visible from the outside.

Regardless, I started and ranked my first reaver before charge was even in the game and I still didn't find myself as frustrated as you seem to be with the class.

Your reavers on multiple servers are either not true or at the very least not visible from the outside. I was frustrated with the class ranking up, never said anything about how I feel in its current iteration.

Originally Posted by n38

And that doesn't even matter because it seems as though you would as I said feel the same frustration regardless of class or side. "Earn your stripes greenie" is not class specific, and if anything reavers get into raid the easiest at lower ranks.

This is point where your statements hold no weight. "Into the Raid" Sorry on the 3 servers, I've creeped on I can count on one hand the amount of times low ranked reavers got into a raid. There is absolutely no reason to add low ranked reavers to a raid other than for freep fodder, and if your fighting decent freeps they aren't going to target the baby reavers nubbing at their ankles anyway. Yes community issue, but there are two servers that are on average twice as large as most other servers(For PvP). Nothing the community can do about that unless Turbine merges servers.

Originally Posted by n38

Grouping/raiding is required to max out a character, have you never needed to pug something or had a kin member or 2 insist on a different instance? That doesn't often lead to death but it surely can, I know I have been killed quite a few times in raids because of stupidity induced wipes, which in turn eventually lead to people leaving and halting progression further.

Nope never had this problem. Only raids I've ever pugged were skirm raids, if a kin member wanted to run something else they didn't have to come on the run. Sounds like a community issue for you.

Originally Posted by n38

I am primarily a solo player so my character seldom stays as a "lowbie" for long enough to have that sort of effect on me.

But I suppose in the same regard your play style has a similar effect on your PvE. I don't know when you started this game or how you play on either side but I have certainly without a doubt have seen far more frustration come from my PvE. Hundreds upon hundreds of HoC runs for an anvil, ~90 CD runs for berghelm, ~30 treasury runs for my first amber ring and another ~50 for my second, I don't even know how many rift runs I did specifically for the damn bell, ~40 runs for the uru CDR chest, ~110 SG runs for my first lvl65 second age (That I immediately tossed as it was so bad it wasn't even worth the IXP I put into it.), ~80 GS(EM) runs for gold hoop earring, ~130 GS(HM) runs for a set of cuffs, and ~60 skum queen side runs for pendevig-clog. That's just some off the top of my head for a single character there are more just as bad if not worse not only on the same character on my others as well.

As you may be able to tell from my posts I am a perfectionist it is far more frustrating and far, far harder to keep a freep at a satisfactory point than creep side ever was or will be.

Only two up there I can relate to are the Anvil and Pendevig-clog. HoC over a hundred times before I got my anvil, sure it was frustraiting, but nothing was DIFFICULT about it. Plus I choose to go after it, I didn't NEED it. (Once Forgotten Inn came out anvil was obsolete, Enedwaith rep cloak was better) So that should give you an idea about how long I've been playing. Not as long as you (allegedly), and guess what? I never NEEDED those items to be powerful in PvP. Your not talking perfectionist, your talking maxing. And that's fine. At that iteration of LOTRO, I used to hotswap 15 different items on my cappy to maximize certain abilities.(Tact crit on items for healing, +healing proc, dev mag items) I certainly can understand why players maximize their toons. I make two points on this:

1.) All of those grinds are older... could it be that the new barter and crafted gear has eliminated the need to run instances hundreds of times to obtain an item? To be fair the only item I found my self grinding for in RoI was Sarchol, had to run pits 10 times before I got it. Never obtained the might bracelet from ROF on my champ, "Its nice but I don't NEED it." And you CHOOSE to engage in those grinds. See that's the point your missing, at those times in the game yeah, those items were really good to have. Currently, it has never been easier to obtain the 75 Teal. And you don't NEED it to be competetive in PvP. Every player arguing about freep grind seems to think that you need to be the maxed equivalent of r14 -15 creep to be competitive at PvP.

2.) If you want to become stronger you can leave the moors to do so.

See the issue is the ceiling of Freep/Creep builds. Freeps reach their highest potential by doing PvE in zones outside creep control, I.E. I can't slow you down on my reaver from maxing out certain aspects of your toon. Only thing I have any effect on is how fast audacity is acquired. Freep ceiling is also higher, and should be. You have the potential to be truly OP, especially if your a "perfectionist" Creeps reach their ceiling through rank. And it can be directly inhibited by other players. This doesn't take into account class imbalances. Once a freep reaches a certain "tier" on their build, assuming the player is competent, they will always have an advantage against certain classes. And there is very little creeps can do to change the outcome, hence all the QQ about OP and imbalance, the "no skill" comments. Same thing can be said about Defiler flies, which is why you can guarantee they will be nerfed.

Now don't misconstrue this into thinking I am of the opinion the moors are gravely imbalanced, I do not believe it as great as the hyperbole claims. There are several tweaks that could be made to make it much better for sure(+Reaver DPS, New Heals WL/Def, Mini WS healing/Shield Warden tweak) but I don't believe the game is currently unplayable. I simply am trying to illustrate why I believe, in my experience, that the road to competitiveness for creeps is more difficult having reached competitiveness on both sides. If you have done both and disagree, you are entitled to your opinion and agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by apb8808

Your reavers on multiple servers are either not true or at the very least not visible from the outside. I was frustrated with the class ranking up, never said anything about how I feel in its current iteration.

They are very much so visible, I just checked and all but 1 show up on the leaderboards. I don't feel the need to fill my sig and as such I don't and for good reason as well. Come find me in the moors some day I play on several servers and at random times and have commitments to other people in other games but I'm not hiding while I play.

Originally Posted by apb8808

This is point where your statements hold no weight. "Into the Raid" Sorry on the 3 servers, I've creeped on I can count on one hand the amount of times low ranked reavers got into a raid. There is absolutely no reason to add low ranked reavers to a raid other than for freep fodder, and if your fighting decent freeps they aren't going to target the baby reavers nubbing at their ankles anyway. Yes community issue, but there are two servers that are on average twice as large as most other servers(For PvP). Nothing the community can do about that unless Turbine merges servers.

Low rank now is r3-5 with the ease of ranking through questing and such, I see a lot of reavers around those ranks in raids pretty much whichever server I'm on. I could roll a reaver right now and get into a raid at r0 if I wanted (I wouldn't based on principles but for arguments sake). If it truly is that hard for a low ranked reaver to get into a raid joining a casual tribe should be the next place you look.

Originally Posted by apb8808

Nope never had this problem. Only raids I've ever pugged were skirm raids, if a kin member wanted to run something else they didn't have to come on the run. Sounds like a community issue for you.

So the only raids you've ever PuGed are the ones so easy they are impossible to fail and can be 3 manned with the exception of 1? And you've never had 4-5 people ready to go and had the last person or 2 refuse to run an instance with you?

So... the PuG issue isn't applying to you.

Do you do the actual raids? As in have you been in a kin that currently or in the past completed t2c raid fights? In those fights have any of your raid members cause a wipe? Or had to log early on raid night? Or just decide not to show up that day?

Originally Posted by apb8808

Only two up there I can relate to are the Anvil and Pendevig-clog. HoC over a hundred times before I got my anvil, sure it was frustraiting, but nothing was DIFFICULT about it. Plus I choose to go after it, I didn't NEED it. (Once Forgotten Inn came out anvil was obsolete, Enedwaith rep cloak was better) So that should give you an idea about how long I've been playing. Not as long as you (allegedly), and guess what? I never NEEDED those items to be powerful in PvP.

Those 2 sure weren't difficult (neither is ranking) just took a long time and were frustrating which was the whole point. Faeringor? Lorechor? Wig-feld? Certhloch? Gond-barad? Baingrist? The list goes on and on, BiS or OS-BiS at their time.

And Forgotten Inn pocket did not make the anvil obsolete, one of them was good for certain situations combined with the anvil and the only made the black pearl obsolete. And the Enedwaith rep cloak was a good cloak with a few points over pendevig-clog but the acid resist was more important for several things including being BiS for spider fights.

And of course you didn't "NEED" any of those, the same can be said about certain things on creep side. As for you not needing to improve over basic items to be powerful in PvP I can assure you that's not the case if you are fighting someone who knows what they're doing on their class.

Originally Posted by apb8808

Your not talking perfectionist, your talking maxing.

Effectively the same thing.

Originally Posted by apb8808

1.) All of those grinds are older... could it be that the new barter and crafted gear has eliminated the need to run instances hundreds of times to obtain an item? To be fair the only item I found my self grinding for in RoI was Sarchol, had to run pits 10 times before I got it. Never obtained the might bracelet from ROF on my champ, "Its nice but I don't NEED it." And you CHOOSE to engage in those grinds. See that's the point your missing, at those times in the game yeah, those items were really good to have. Currently, it has never been easier to obtain the 75 Teal. And you don't NEED it to be competetive in PvP. Every player arguing about freep grind seems to think that you need to be the maxed equivalent of r14 -15 creep to be competitive at PvP.

All of those grinds are older, not the point again but whatever.

And it's not just gear that has gotten easier to acquire rank is also easier to acquire as well. And the fact that even in ToO the itemization is so bad there is nothing to even go after gear wise other than symbols and other LI components. Want to bet there will be grinds equaling or exceeding the earlier grinds in the next set of instances/raids at lvl85?

As for the last part of this quote, do you know the difference between a r10 creep and a r15 creep? With the exception of a few r11-15 traits (the ones that are sure to be bought) it's ~5% damage ~5% health ~5% finesse ~5% power. 200k from there it's 1% off of that, 400k from that point it's another 1% off of that again.

And again that stays there as a constant, next expansion creeps that are at that point will be excessively powerful again and slowly even out again. And if they continue to play they will only get stronger.

Originally Posted by apb8808

2.) If you want to become stronger you can leave the moors to do so.

Quite the down side actually, having one side progress horizontally while the other progresses vertically while I do somewhat like it because of it's unique when my freep has to toss another set of gear while my creeps are just ready to go before the majority of the server population even passes through the second quest hub.

And for people such as myself PvP is not a grind, I enjoy killing people. It's fun, NPCs... not so much.

Originally Posted by apb8808

See the issue is the ceiling of Freep/Creep builds. Freeps reach their highest potential by doing PvE in zones outside creep control, I.E. I can't slow you down on my reaver from maxing out certain aspects of your toon. Only thing I have any effect on is how fast audacity is acquired. Freep ceiling is also higher, and should be. You have the potential to be truly OP, especially if your a "perfectionist" Creeps reach their ceiling through rank. And it can be directly inhibited by other players. This doesn't take into account class imbalances. Once a freep reaches a certain "tier" on their build, assuming the player is competent, they will always have an advantage against certain classes. And there is very little creeps can do to change the outcome, hence all the QQ about OP and imbalance, the "no skill" comments. Same thing can be said about Defiler flies, which is why you can guarantee they will be nerfed.

Like I said due to the nature of the freep side their strength is constantly fluctuating, and while the highs may be higher they aren't so much higher that they are not conquerable and by the time you do actually get up to r13-15 even at a maxed gear level the gap will be small enough and of course varied by class.

I don't see defiler flies getting nerfed, they aren't common enough yet. It took every single uruk being able to get their heal out of the gate through the store to get it nerfed (...or buffed...). Of course then there's the whole revenge thing... which still crit A LOT and still did more than the average freep had after the threshold.

Originally Posted by apb8808

Now don't misconstrue this into thinking I am of the opinion the moors are gravely imbalanced, I do not believe it as great as the hyperbole claims. There are several tweaks that could be made to make it much better for sure(+Reaver DPS, New Heals WL/Def, Mini WS healing/Shield Warden tweak) but I don't believe the game is currently unplayable. I simply am trying to illustrate why I believe, in my experience, that the road to competitiveness for creeps is more difficult having reached competitiveness on both sides. If you have done both and disagree, you are entitled to your opinion and agree to disagree.

I don't feel the game is nearly as imbalanced as people make it out to be either. Reaver DPS is a tricky issue, they already do more DPS than all but flayer wargs and I could see some more AoE being added for raid DPS but in 1v1s reavers already do enough damage for almost everything out there. When you get your bleeds up and your BoF is doing it's job as well reaver damage is not nearly as bad as some people make it out to be.

Defilers don't need another heal they have enough as it is, aside from their gourd induction trait effecting their debuffing skills defilers are fine.

WLs could use a small HoT placed on their AoE heal(s) but other than that they do what they are meant to and well.

Minstrels don't need a nerf the only time a minstrel can really out heal anything other than a BA if they are playing properly is stopping to induct heals (I do think CoS and inducted heals should be blocked in WS but more than that would be detrimental).

Wardens are just broken right now, but it works because if a shield spec warden comes up spamming heals at you you can just walk away... if you really want to look at something broken with warden take a look at their reflect (I haven't fought a warden that does this in a while, so fixed?) they were reflecting ~150%+ (rough estimate I don't remember the exact numbers) of the damage coming in... yeah.

Originally Posted by n38

I'll take 5 skills developed with PvP in mind over 10 PvE based skills any day.

Isn't that the problem? Freeps are designed (strongly) for PvE, without thinking of the consequences for PvP. IIRC Mobs in PvE land have high morale, which would explain the reason why the freeps have such high mits and high damage.

Originally Posted by doug01

its no were near out of balance as the drama queens posting on the forums would lead you to believe.

Yes, despite creepside having less advantages than I can count on my fingers, PvP is not as unbalanced as many people say it is.

Originally Posted by Stevo6

which would explain the reason why the freeps have such high mits and high damage.

Freeps don't have high mits. With the exception of tank spec tanking classes. Creep mits are on average fine, and they still benefit from 100% armour to non-common sources unlike freeps. And if you want more you can toss a few extra corruptions in. Or pop an armour pot. The only class that is hurting a bit mitigation wise is reaver.

As for freeps high damage, for the last ~4 years or so freep damage hasn't really gone up percentage wise with few exceptions. Generally creep design has kept it overall the same.

Creeps have far more health than freeps with the exception of tank spec tanking classes creeps have 2x or more health, even when a freep stacks as much health as they can their stats take a hit so big it more or less balances out with the lower health spec having every advantage except the slight tactical advantage when some people will just see health numbers and nothing else and avoid you.

Creeps by a huge margin have the most crit defence up to and exceeding 15%, freeps are extremely reliant on crits for their damage so this is quite a big deal.

Creeps on average have higher B/P/E by a large amount when you start getting into the evade pots or the insanity spiders can pull off. Creeps also have all 3 block, parry, and evade which means that finesse makes less of a difference against creeps compared to the majority of freeps.

Creeps have much higher resist and as far as I know under the current system base resist stacks with things like song or cry resist (I have no real way of testing this though). Again adding a resist pot or some corruptions on top.


That and creeps have a large selection of debuffs that when applied properly are an amazing thing. Creep debuffs are several smaller often dual purpose debuffs compared to freep fewer yet visually more threatening debuffs.

Originally Posted by n38

Creeps have much higher resist and as far as I know under the current system base resist stacks with things like song or cry resist (I have no real way of testing this though). Again adding a resist pot or some corruptions on top.

Not a slam or anything, just a serious, curious question. Does this statement mean you don't have a creep? I know MY creeps do not have that great of resistances, even with the mitigations and such slotted.

Originally Posted by Felajarko

Not a slam or anything, just a serious, curious question. Does this statement mean you don't have a creep? I know MY creeps do not have that great of resistances, even with the mitigations and such slotted.

Even with ~14% finesse, my swords, and legacies on my books and resist debuff traits i notice a considerable amount of resists, i don't notice nearly as many resists on skills hitting my freep. I however am unsure of any hard numbers just what i observe.

Creeps have far more health than freeps with the exception of tank spec tanking classes creeps have 2x or more health, even when a freep stacks as much health as they can their stats take a hit so big it more or less balances out with the lower health spec having every advantage except the slight tactical advantage when some people will just see health numbers and nothing else and avoid you.

This equation doesn't really work anymore, the amount of morale creeps have does not balance out vs freep dmg as it has in the past. Also the amount of morale a freep can stack is quickly closing the gap with creeps, while still putting out a significant amount of dmg.

Originally Posted by Daec

Even with ~14% finesse, my swords, and legacies on my books and resist debuff traits i notice a considerable amount of resists, i don't notice nearly as many resists on skills hitting my freep. I however am unsure of any hard numbers just what i observe.

I understand. I always get surprised when I am being attacked by three freeps (like the two minis and the champ at grams last night) when I see "resisted' appear over my head as I run away. I don't have hard numbers, just the shock of seeing 'resisted' instead of slumping over while I get pummeled.

Originally Posted by Daec

This equation doesn't really work anymore, the amount of morale creeps have does not balance out vs freep dmg as it has in the past. Also the amount of morale a freep can stack is quickly closing the gap with creeps, while still putting out a significant amount of dmg.

Which is why creeps don't have solely health alone to assist with damage balance.

Though the amount of health a freep can stack currently impacts damage more than any other time, tactical classes have it easiest in this regard but it is still notable. I would rather run into a target with ~2k more health than a target that has put everything into having a solid base survivability and a focus on damage after that point. The best example of this I can think of are either vitality stacking OP guards or 9k hunters both of which I prefer over the alternate.

Originally Posted by Felajarko

I understand. I always get surprised when I am being attacked by three freeps (like the two minis and the champ at grams last night) when I see "resisted' appear over my head as I run away. I don't have hard numbers, just the shock of seeing 'resisted' instead of slumping over while I get pummeled.

Depends on the attacks the minstrels used, and champs only have a handful of skills that can be resisted.

I see plenty of resists when I'm on my creeps, try turning on a parser even without a resist pot. A few weeks back I took my champ out for a bit and had a group of creeps resist 4/5 stuns from my crafted horn and that's not overly rare I've had it happen plenty of times.

Originally Posted by Zalexia

Well you call for balance, yet nerfing is a clear way that unbalances the game. One side will be weaker then the other and then overpowered at some point in time. If you been there since soa time you will realize that things balance in time. I say nerfing is the opposite of balanced pvmp. I didnt say that it would make me give up my minstrel, i'm saying instead of whining a class is op , learn to beat it. Saruman tier2 has finally been beaten on our server and a german server not sure where else.... They had to over come many deaths in order to beat it. It has taken its toll on kins all over the place. We could have whined and said make the instance easier. Cheers to turbine for leaving it the way it is. Maybe instead of crying something is hard, to figure out how to beat it.

Why a flopper is posting at Monster play threads?

Originally Posted by n38

Which is why creeps don't have solely health alone to assist with damage balance.

You're right, freeps do far far more damage and creeps have nothing to balance it.