There are days I'm frustrated too, but , maybe you should try levelling a freep up to 75, grinding li's , seals, gear and crystals , traits and virtues... if u wanna play those cards. There is a lot of work involved in making an op toon and I have heard most of my under audacity geared friends say its rough w/ no audacity. There is a lot that goes into making a freep win and theres a lot that goes into making a creep win. I dont have to play to know who has done the work and research to see whose good and whose not.
I have did the Freep pve grind several times over and have ranked Freeps. Whoop de doo. It doesnt validate the imbalances in the moors .
Being good doesnt stop someone from getting stomped by another who has been given far superior tools by this company to succeed in a pvp setting.
There are days I'm frustrated too, but , maybe you should try levelling a freep up to 75, grinding li's , seals, gear and crystals , traits and virtues... if u wanna play those cards. There is a lot of work involved in making an op toon and I have heard most of my under audacity geared friends say its rough w/ no audacity. There is a lot that goes into making a freep win and theres a lot that goes into making a creep win. I dont have to play to know who has done the work and research to see whose good and whose not.
The audacity/rough comment made me laugh. You think it's rough getting audacity on an under geared Freep? Roll a new creep, lol.
It takes much more time and effort to get a playable Creep than it does a Freep, sorry. And at the end of the day, a r15 Creep with every consumable and trait possible will be fundamentally inferior to the majority of Freep classes, in average gear.
Turbine has given the answer in the last 5 years by what they have done to the moors. Creeps are meant to be inferior. This will not change. Accept it. If you cant stand it, dont log in as a creep.
Sure genius, then who will the freeps have to fight in the moors? As it is, creeps are just glorified NPCs. If all the creeps don't log in, enjoy your new PvE area.
As for which side takes more work to be competitive? It takes alot more work for freeps to become competitive in the Moors. However, they can work on this safely by questing and leveling in PvE-land. For creeps, they get to earn PvP status and rank while they level. However, its not a safe environment. The upside for most freep classes is higher than creep classes. There are exceptions as with any general rule of thumb.
Its not that they're OP, its their way of playing that makes people mad. I've seen 5 wargs pounce 1 hunter just to kill him.
Only teasing
But ya, idk. I'm used to packs of freeps working together to take down solo creeps, so my grapes were sour when I made that. But I think it's good that people are understanding how we, as creeps, feel now in a sense.
But ya, idk. I'm used to packs of freeps working together to take down solo creeps, so my grapes were sour when I made that. But I think it's good that people are understanding how we, as creeps, feel now in a sense.
To me there still is a huge difference between a freep group zerging a single creep, or a group or raid of creeps zerging a single freep or even a group of burgs and a pack of wargs. Now when I ride down from GV I know I might be jumped by any creep. I am also cool when two creeps or wargs get me or even three in a populated spot, all the same it would be alright if this happened to me on creepside.
My problem is when people band together not for safety or increasign their chances but to farm mindlessly with a high possibility to get away when counterdefences might occur. The times I have seen a burglar group of 6+ roaming around in the moors, I can count on one hand. However there were myriads of days with warg packs of 6-24. Morthond has a habit of producing cowards it seems. It is just the result of stealth that makes cowards suddenly pop up more frequently. And Orion made it so easy for warg packs. The goal was to increase group viabilty but I still do not see a lot of wargs in raids I see a lot of wargs forming packs and farming people though. It has just been made more comfortable and riskless to pack up. And there is no efficient way to counter them. You could use two hunters to perma track but this will only result in getting one warg each try but binding your group to searching for ghosts really. That is how mobile they are. I would advise to delete the delay of tracking, making it possible while riding.
Also I would always advocate of moving the DMG bonus of Shadow to Flayer, or even decrease shadow damage by 5%. You want to pick your fights, fight unvisible with high chance of getting away you have to pay for it. Additionally make it impossibl to change stances while fighting AND upon dropping a stance dish out a cooldown on everything related. Buff Flayer close to OPness and nerf Shadow to the ground to delete Stealth Warg packs, that is what I say.
Vincent van Port "Held der fliegenden Feder" R13 before 2013!
Collector of superb posts.
You can discuss anything at General Discussion or Suggestions forums, but when it's about PvMP, it'll be moved almost immediately to PvMP section,
They really DO need to move more threads. Too many players shoving everything in general. Warden stuff should be in warden section, store stuff in store section, etc. But here's the thing; when PVP posts end up in the general section then why do people feel the need to give negative rep with a comment "you don't pvp so don't respond"?
Face it, if the issues are being ignored in pvp section they're going to be ignored in the general section. All the sections get read. The person most likely to be developing for pvp is going to read that section first before general. The only reason I suspect people post in general is because they want the general population to read the posts, not Turbine.
Well you call for balance, yet nerfing is a clear way that unbalances the game. One side will be weaker then the other and then overpowered at some point in time. If you been there since soa time you will realize that things balance in time. I say nerfing is the opposite of balanced pvmp. I didnt say that it would make me give up my minstrel, i'm saying instead of whining a class is op , learn to beat it. Saruman tier2 has finally been beaten on our server and a german server not sure where else.... They had to over come many deaths in order to beat it. It has taken its toll on kins all over the place. We could have whined and said make the instance easier. Cheers to turbine for leaving it the way it is. Maybe instead of crying something is hard, to figure out how to beat it.
Fancy that a mini says "if you can't beat me; learn to play"
So it has nothing to do with Turbine giving you a gun to take to a knife fight?
It's a bit rude telling people to learn how to play when their DPS is less than your HPS (in war speach no less).
I suppose you are thinking that you suddenly became better at this games PvMP at the exact same time that you got full heals in war speech?
The interesting thing is; every other high ranked mini in these forums realised that it wasn't a coincidence. Not not you it seems.
The classes arent op , the people playing them are op. Theres a difference.
No, minstrel is OP, while some classes may be good vs some, and not so good vs another. There is no class setup a minstrel can lose, unless they are just down right terrible or its 6v1. Even that is sometimes questionable.
The audacity/rough comment made me laugh. You think it's rough getting audacity on an under geared Freep? Roll a new creep, lol.
It takes much more time and effort to get a playable Creep than it does a Freep, sorry. And at the end of the day, a r15 Creep with every consumable and trait possible will be fundamentally inferior to the majority of Freep classes, in average gear.
First understand that I completely agree that the commendation costs for creeps needs to be reduced, though I suspect like others do that it was a way for the Turbine Execs to force Creeps to spend money on the store. However your statement about time to get a playable creep is absurd. It takes a lot longer to get from rank 1 to 75 and then geared than it does to get creep to rank 6, and since you can technically buy all your skills you could technically have an instant viable creep if you were inclined to pay ( I am not saying that you should have to, merely pointing out the possibility). There are some very fundamental problems creepside that do need to be addressed, but honestly nerfing classes is never the answer.
First understand that I completely agree that the commendation costs for creeps needs to be reduced, though I suspect like others do that it was a way for the Turbine Execs to force Creeps to spend money on the store. However your statement about time to get a playable creep is absurd. It takes a lot longer to get from rank 1 to 75 and then geared than it does to get creep to rank 6, and since you can technically buy all your skills you could technically have an instant viable creep if you were inclined to pay ( I am not saying that you should have to, merely pointing out the possibility). There are some very fundamental problems creepside that do need to be addressed, but honestly nerfing classes is never the answer.
Turbine are milking PvPers for all they can, everytime you buy a silly speed pot or falling damage pot you help destroy PvP.
As a Freep player id agree low rank creeps have it tough getting their skills with commendations, and their needed to be some balancing to help creeps, so Turbines answer?
Buff Wargs....
It seems difficult to believe that they were not aware of the effects this would have on PvP, it makes it even worse for the Non Warg Creep and Freep soloers, and in fact any non warg Creep.
When Freeps get ganked by 6+ Wargs most of the time they are solo they will group, and as we all know, a decent Freep group will tend to overpower a similar sized and skilled creep group if they have healers who heal rather than WS mincers and DPS RKs...
These ganking wargs will also get wiped when they try to attack the Freep group so they can either try to pick off stragglers or just perma farm the last soloers at GY, GV and EC...
Not good PvP even for them id imagine...
That said if you have decent Creep leaders who are not overly elitist and balanced groups of Creeps including some higher ranked players who know their jobs Creeps can still do well. Many strong Creep raids and Tribe groups can dominate at times on Laurelin, and the true Freep players, rather than the EZ moders, appreciate this, we dont want to zerg noobs and soloers.
"Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory." The Art of War by Sun Tzu
Connall of Dunland, Warlord of Frontline Freep PvP Alliance
Its not that they're OP, its their way of playing that makes people mad. I've seen 5 wargs pounce 1 hunter just to kill him.
Well on my server (for a few days anyway) we had burg pack and a mini pack roaming around. No solo creep was safe that evil day. Occasionaly we still have days where 3-4 burgs roam about (not sure if they are grouped or not, but it seems like it), and burgs are much stronger than wargs.
The amount of wargs is so high because pvmp is unbalanced, heavily toward freepside. Warg Stalker is the easiet (probably the safest pve wise) class to play. Creeps that are tired of getting stomped/crushed/otherwise destroyed roll wargs.
Last edited by Selebrimbor; May 22 2012 at 08:19 AM.
I enjoy reading all the points in this thread, but unfortunately Turbine doesn't seem to care about PvMP, let alone the Creeps of PvMP.
I truly believe that they want us to be so inferior to the Freeps. The Freeps of PvP are the VIPS and therefore are Turbine's money-makers. As long as that is the case, I think that pvp will never be balanced. It is a sad fact.
I guess there isn't anything wrong with hoping though. I'll keep on hoping.
<snip>However your statement about time to get a playable creep is absurd. It takes a lot longer to get from rank 1 to 75 and then geared than it does to get creep to rank 6, and since you can technically buy all your skills you could technically have an instant viable creep if you were inclined to pay ( I am not saying that you should have to, merely pointing out the possibility). There are some very fundamental problems creepside that do need to be addressed, but honestly nerfing classes is never the answer.
I hear this over and over, that it's "so much easier" to rank up a Creep than it is to level and gear a Freep. While, technically, it takes more hours of seat time to get a Freep from 1st to 75th than it would take to get a Creep from Rank 0 to, say, rank 6, it misses the point.
If you're creepside getting the first few ranks, and gaining your maps, PvE side, you will be banging your head against the desk from boredom inside the first two days whlist a "normal" character has how many hundred quests to choose from? The main part of the game is about Lore and the Content they wrote for it - and there is a LOT of it.
I've said it elsewhere: "If your entire goal is to blast through to the level cap just to get to end game content, you're missing the point."
When I hear Freeps complain about the grind (this is directed at others, not you here in the response) and that we can buy all our skills, I keep forgetting to point them to the LoTRO store where they can buy all their virtues, legendary traits, and stat boosts.
It's just not a legitimate complaint.
But we totally agree on one thing here. Nerfing classes isn't the answer. The problem is, every time I've seen anything get brought up on Creepside, I see a huge outcry from the Freeps. We're the ones who usually get the stealth nerfs, because the Freepside players are the main base. It's a fact. We accept it. We may complain about it, but we accept it.
To me there still is a huge difference between a freep group zerging a single creep, or a group or raid of creeps zerging a single freep or even a group of burgs and a pack of wargs. Now when I ride down from GV I know I might be jumped by any creep. I am also cool when two creeps or wargs get me or even three in a populated spot, all the same it would be alright if this happened to me on creepside.
My problem is when people band together not for safety or increasign their chances but to farm mindlessly with a high possibility to get away when counterdefences might occur. The times I have seen a burglar group of 6+ roaming around in the moors, I can count on one hand. However there were myriads of days with warg packs of 6-24. Morthond has a habit of producing cowards it seems. It is just the result of stealth that makes cowards suddenly pop up more frequently. And Orion made it so easy for warg packs. The goal was to increase group viabilty but I still do not see a lot of wargs in raids I see a lot of wargs forming packs and farming people though. It has just been made more comfortable and riskless to pack up. And there is no efficient way to counter them. You could use two hunters to perma track but this will only result in getting one warg each try but binding your group to searching for ghosts really. That is how mobile they are. I would advise to delete the delay of tracking, making it possible while riding.
Also I would always advocate of moving the DMG bonus of Shadow to Flayer, or even decrease shadow damage by 5%. You want to pick your fights, fight unvisible with high chance of getting away you have to pay for it. Additionally make it impossibl to change stances while fighting AND upon dropping a stance dish out a cooldown on everything related. Buff Flayer close to OPness and nerf Shadow to the ground to delete Stealth Warg packs, that is what I say.
No way to counter them? What about grouping up yourself? An organized group of Freeps will destroy a Warg pack.
Tracking while mounted would be OP. You can already track and mount up as is, you want it to be even easier? Throw in Improved Fleetness + Find the Path making Hunters faster than Wargs OOC and their tracking doesn't look like it needs any buffs if you ask me.
Moving Shadow dmg to Flayer would be amazingly game breaking too. Neither do Wargs need to do less damage. Why do you want to nerf large groups of Wargs...you wouldn't expect or demand to live if it were a raid of Burgs.
Originally Posted by Zalexia
Well you call for balance, yet nerfing is a clear way that unbalances the game. One side will be weaker then the other and then overpowered at some point in time. If you been there since soa time you will realize that things balance in time. I say nerfing is the opposite of balanced pvmp. I didnt say that it would make me give up my minstrel, i'm saying instead of whining a class is op , learn to beat it. Saruman tier2 has finally been beaten on our server and a german server not sure where else.... They had to over come many deaths in order to beat it. It has taken its toll on kins all over the place. We could have whined and said make the instance easier. Cheers to turbine for leaving it the way it is. Maybe instead of crying something is hard, to figure out how to beat it.
lol, Saruman was only beaten because it was significantly nerfed. All the 'learning to play' in the world doesn't help when the odds are impossible.
Last edited by PhantomPunkk; May 22 2012 at 09:47 AM.
No way to counter them? What about grouping up yourself? An organized group of Freeps will destroy a Warg pack.
Tracking while mounted would be OP. You can already track and mount up as is, you want it to be even easier? Throw in Improved Fleetness + Find the Path making Hunters faster than Wargs OOC and their tracking doesn't look like it needs any buffs if you ask me.
Moving Shadow dmg to Flayer would be amazingly game breaking too. Neither do Wargs need to do less damage. Why do you want to nerf large groups of Wargs...you wouldn't expect or demand to live if it were a raid of Burgs.
No the warg pack simply would not attack your group. And you can not effectively hunt down more than one warg in a group no matter how many yellow traited hunters there are. The only way it was effective before RoR or Update 6 was to offer them a free lunch and therefore attract their attention. Anyway as soon as they are seeing you to be a danger they will just wait it out. Even if you track down one or more their small CDs on Sprint and disappear will help them get away. So you usually only get the newbies in the pack or the ones that actually still have balls. Now I've done quite a bit of waghunting myself. As said you will only ever get one, when you track them actively while you are binding your group to this one specific task only. Even if you destroy them fully they will just wait for their CDs, eat lunch take a break etc. and come back to farm solo freeps 10vs1 when your group is elsewhere. Been there done that. The whole shadow stance including these buffs just enforce playstyles like this. And Stealth of course. That is why I'd say buff shadow to bits. Force them into flayer by buffing it. I am in noway demanding to make warggroups useless. But why not buff flayer for every warg in the group in this stance and nerf shadow for every shadow warg in a group. This would ot affect solo wargs or small groups. I am just trying to stop this cowardice.
By the way. Yes it is true with fleetness and find the path you are faster than a warg...Not sure by hwo much though. Still the stealth of a warg means that they will usually see you before you see them. The delay between tracking (+inducton) to the visibility on the map is to big to really be effective as a warg hunter. By the time you can stalk them they will get another 20m between you, So I would always mount up. This will give a warg time to restealth that is why you need another yellow hunter to track that stealthed warg. This is why you will only get one. Now if you are able to follow it now there is always the chance of sprinting away or disappearing. Heck the warg might even have the chance to put on march and be faster again than the hunter. I've done some thinking on this behalf. That is why I demanded changes to tracking. Horse tracking, Deleting the delay and/or the induction and make heightened senses inherit, also let your whole group see the target on minimap, but not attackable until unstealthed. So these are the proposed changes.
Now with warg packs only consisting of flayer wargs I would not have a problem, since they are visible and can therefore be avoided, like raids and regular groups. And yeah I would demand the same with burglars if burglar groups of 6+ would be as popular as warg packs. As said I still have to encounter huge burglar groups on my server other than the ones made for fun once every year.
On my server Warg packs doing nothing but farming solo freeps and running away are formed on a daily basis. This form of PvP does nothing for the Moors. While on other spots creeps are dying and being farmed these fellows just do the same although they could make a difference and therefore increasing quality of PvP for both sides.
Also I would demand that it should not be able to get the benefits from bith stances within seconds, that is way to much. Orion really screwed around here.
Vincent van Port "Held der fliegenden Feder" R13 before 2013!
Collector of superb posts.
No the warg pack simply would not attack your group. And you can not effectively hunt down more than one warg in a group no matter how many yellow traited hunters there are. The only way it was effective before RoR or Update 6 was to offer them a free lunch and therefore attract their attention. Anyway as soon as they are seeing you to be a danger they will just wait it out. Even if you track down one or more their small CDs on Sprint and disappear will help them get away. So you usually only get the newbies in the pack or the ones that actually still have balls. Now I've done quite a bit of waghunting myself. As said you will only ever get one, when you track them actively while you are binding your group to this one specific task only. Even if you destroy them fully they will just wait for their CDs, eat lunch take a break etc. and come back to farm solo freeps 10vs1 when your group is elsewhere. Been there done that. The whole shadow stance including these buffs just enforce playstyles like this. And Stealth of course. That is why I'd say buff shadow to bits. Force them into flayer by buffing it. I am in noway demanding to make warggroups useless. But why not buff flayer for every warg in the group in this stance and nerf shadow for every shadow warg in a group. This would ot affect solo wargs or small groups. I am just trying to stop this cowardice.
By the way. Yes it is true with fleetness and find the path you are faster than a warg...Not sure by hwo much though. Still the stealth of a warg means that they will usually see you before you see them. The delay between tracking (+inducton) to the visibility on the map is to big to really be effective as a warg hunter. By the time you can stalk them they will get another 20m between you, So I would always mount up. This will give a warg time to restealth that is why you need another yellow hunter to track that stealthed warg. This is why you will only get one. Now if you are able to follow it now there is always the chance of sprinting away or disappearing. Heck the warg might even have the chance to put on march and be faster again than the hunter. I've done some thinking on this behalf. That is why I demanded changes to tracking. Horse tracking, Deleting the delay and/or the induction and make heightened senses inherit, also let your whole group see the target on minimap, but not attackable until unstealthed. So these are the proposed changes.
Now with warg packs only consisting of flayer wargs I would not have a problem, since they are visible and can therefore be avoided, like raids and regular groups. And yeah I would demand the same with burglars if burglar groups of 6+ would be as popular as warg packs. As said I still have to encounter huge burglar groups on my server other than the ones made for fun once every year.
On my server Warg packs doing nothing but farming solo freeps and running away are formed on a daily basis. This form of PvP does nothing for the Moors. While on other spots creeps are dying and being farmed these fellows just do the same although they could make a difference and therefore increasing quality of PvP for both sides.
Also I would demand that it should not be able to get the benefits from bith stances within seconds, that is way to much. Orion really screwed around here.
How to beat a warg pack, step by step guide:
1.Get two good wardens.
That's how you beat a good warg pack of 5-8, it's worked like a charm since the warden class came out.
Do you realy think "balance" will be achieved by buffing creeps to be able to compete in a 1:1 fight?
EL OH EL..
Creeps outnumber, vastly outnumber, freeps on every server. Yea, make the "zerg" as strong as "tarrens" while at the same time allowing them to keep thier numbers advantage.
Creeps have it so rough, yet the amount of creeps playing has steady increased for the last 8 months while freep numbers have pretty much remained about the same.
WTB More freeps so the game doesn't have to make every freep over powered to have a chance in the OP creep (as in over populated) Ettenmoors. Renown/infamy distrubution already favors creeps on every server, buffing creeps at this point would just make the moors even more unbalanced. We all play OPvP, not instanced PvP. there is one HUGE thing that makes them different. Wanna know? the amount of players each side can bring to the battle field, and right now creeps have a huge advantage.
Make creeps even in power with freeps while allowing them to maintain the almost 2:1 numbers advantage they currently have...yyyeeeeaaaa, thats gunna bring balance...
"...FF is still the best server period, its like the Texas of Lotro"-Bace
<snip>
Creeps outnumber, vastly outnumber, freeps on every server. Yea, make the "zerg" as strong as "tarrens" while at the same time allowing them to keep thier numbers advantage.
Creeps have it so rough, yet the amount of creeps playing has steady increased for the last 8 months while freep numbers have pretty much remained about the same.
<snip>
Huh. Well, to quote the usual advertising. "Your experience may vary."
Or, perhaps, I should say "Your facts appear to be in error." It may be true on the servers you've been active on, but my experience has been that the numbers tend to fluctuate over the course of the day and "Who has numbers" tends to flip back and forth several times over the course of the day. Overall, where I've been playing, there seem to be a few more active Creep players, but at any given time? No.
I know some servers get a more or less constant Outnumbered buff for one side or the other, but a blanket statement that Creeps vastly outnumber (your words) Freeps everywhere is just factually incorrect.
No the warg pack simply would not attack your group. And you can not effectively hunt down more than one warg in a group no matter how many yellow traited hunters there are. The only way it was effective before RoR or Update 6 was to offer them a free lunch and therefore attract their attention. Anyway as soon as they are seeing you to be a danger they will just wait it out. Even if you track down one or more their small CDs on Sprint and disappear will help them get away. So you usually only get the newbies in the pack or the ones that actually still have balls. Now I've done quite a bit of waghunting myself. As said you will only ever get one, when you track them actively while you are binding your group to this one specific task only. Even if you destroy them fully they will just wait for their CDs, eat lunch take a break etc. and come back to farm solo freeps 10vs1 when your group is elsewhere. Been there done that. The whole shadow stance including these buffs just enforce playstyles like this. And Stealth of course. That is why I'd say buff shadow to bits. Force them into flayer by buffing it. I am in noway demanding to make warggroups useless. But why not buff flayer for every warg in the group in this stance and nerf shadow for every shadow warg in a group. This would ot affect solo wargs or small groups. I am just trying to stop this cowardice.
By the way. Yes it is true with fleetness and find the path you are faster than a warg...Not sure by hwo much though. Still the stealth of a warg means that they will usually see you before you see them. The delay between tracking (+inducton) to the visibility on the map is to big to really be effective as a warg hunter. By the time you can stalk them they will get another 20m between you, So I would always mount up. This will give a warg time to restealth that is why you need another yellow hunter to track that stealthed warg. This is why you will only get one. Now if you are able to follow it now there is always the chance of sprinting away or disappearing. Heck the warg might even have the chance to put on march and be faster again than the hunter. I've done some thinking on this behalf. That is why I demanded changes to tracking. Horse tracking, Deleting the delay and/or the induction and make heightened senses inherit, also let your whole group see the target on minimap, but not attackable until unstealthed. So these are the proposed changes.
Now with warg packs only consisting of flayer wargs I would not have a problem, since they are visible and can therefore be avoided, like raids and regular groups. And yeah I would demand the same with burglars if burglar groups of 6+ would be as popular as warg packs. As said I still have to encounter huge burglar groups on my server other than the ones made for fun once every year.
On my server Warg packs doing nothing but farming solo freeps and running away are formed on a daily basis. This form of PvP does nothing for the Moors. While on other spots creeps are dying and being farmed these fellows just do the same although they could make a difference and therefore increasing quality of PvP for both sides.
Also I would demand that it should not be able to get the benefits from bith stances within seconds, that is way to much. Orion really screwed around here.
1. Track
2. Mount up
3. Now select tracking target.
4. ? ? ?
5. Profit
It isn't bad at all atm. If your server is full of raids of Wargs that refuse to engage anything that isn't alone that isn't a fault of the class.
I think it's funny you want to provide huge disincentive for stealth on Creep and think it would somehow be something akin to parity if you did the same to Burg. Freeps and Creeps have the same aoe/ranged/escape skill potential, after all, right?
Creep needs a strong stealth class. That or provide all the Creep classes similar utility skills that ALL the Freep classes have. You probably don't see as many Burgs as Wargs because the Freeps are all on Minstrels/RKs/Champs.
Btw the difference is 11% run speed betwen a legacied Find the Path and Fleetness Hunt and a stealthed Warg who is stacking run speed traits. Yeah they can go into March...but that infinitesimal induction has been the death of many a Warg - not to mention it would reveal the Warg to all the Freeps around you, who, if you aren't mounted to track, definitely are.
The only real nerf, I think, that'd be good idea to Warg stealth is their hips. The trait shouldn't halve the cooldown on it. It is pretty damn ridiculous to deal with Wargs who run 5 Min Sprint and Hips cooldowns.
Last edited by PhantomPunkk; May 22 2012 at 12:39 PM.
Do you realy think "balance" will be achieved by buffing creeps to be able to compete in a 1:1 fight?
EL OH EL..
Creeps outnumber, vastly outnumber, freeps on every server. Yea, make the "zerg" as strong as "tarrens" while at the same time allowing them to keep thier numbers advantage.
You must play on a funky server. Brandywine has been the opposite quite often lately. How to fix this? Buff HIGHER ranked creeps. r8+
Creeps outnumber, vastly outnumber, freeps on every server. Yea, make the "zerg" as strong as "tarrens" while at the same time allowing them to keep thier numbers advantage.
Creeps have it so rough, yet the amount of creeps playing has steady increased for the last 8 months while freep numbers have pretty much remained about the same.
During my prime playing hours on my server, 7 EST to 12 EST, there is a 24+ freep raid running around zerging keeps 50% of the time. Sometimes we have the numbers to fight them, sometimes we don't, and sometimes we get the outnumbered buff. I'm not surprised to log into a fully blue map with a raid zerging OC and some camping grams.
On the times I've played off hours, the numbers fluctuate back and forth between sides. Yes there are plenty times when creeps outnumber freeps but frequently this degenerates into 1v1 circles until enough freeps show up/or one creep tribe starts ganking 1v1's.
Sorry that your experience on Firefoot is not like this, but sweeping generalizations don't do much for educated discussion. When you start with assumptions, the truth will elude you.
Sorry that your experience on Firefoot is not like this, but sweeping generalizations don't do much for educated discussion. When you start with assumptions, the truth will elude you.
You really should research a bit before you assume others are making generalizations.
There is no dubt that the population on every server swings at times, but on average creeps easily control the popluation. Its not even remotely close on any server. To try to claim otherwise is just living in denile.
theres only two US servers that have equal flow of renown/infamy. ALL the rest favor creeps, by a large margin in some cases. You'll never achieve OPvP balance with a population so far outta wack unless you make it so that the outnumbered side is notably stronger on an individual comparison...Humm...where do we see that at?
Last edited by doug01; May 22 2012 at 01:25 PM.
"...FF is still the best server period, its like the Texas of Lotro"-Bace
Yeah, all those greeny F2P Reavers really turn the tide!
If one creep equaled one freep, and assuming player skill equal, how many "greenies" would be need to shift the battle in favor of the creeps? Understand now?
"...FF is still the best server period, its like the Texas of Lotro"-Bace
Regardless of server variance there are a few facts.
1> Getting a freep character to the moors in a competative state requires FAR more hours and or TP than a creep. Period. No point even arguing. It's not even in the realm of being close.
2> As a result of #1 Creeps have a lot more flexibility with their class structure, i.e. need more healers? Chances are someone has invested the few hours it'd take to get a playable healer creep out there. Same for dps, or stealth (read wargpacks) and or ranged dps.
3> Creeps DO get more powerful with ranks...even now...and although this has been mitigated with a lot of other mechanics it still does exist. Freeps have no such power curve.
4> Difference in movement. Creeps are slower than mounted freeps (barely in some cases) BUT they have maps. And maps throw an interesting wrinkle into the mix. Creeps can be FAR FAR more responsive to call outs than even the fastest horses. In larger numbers and in quicker response times. Again, this is irrefutable.
What does this mean?
IF Creeps were "balanced" so any given creep at any given time were a fully competative (50/50 chance of winning) toon to a freep in a stand up face to face fight, then creepside as a SIDE, would be IMMENSELY overpowered.
There are two different games going on in the moors. Freep play, which is a PvP zone for PvE players. And Creep play which is NOT LotRO the MMO. It's Creepside LotRO and is an entirely different game.
Once people understand that point I think there'd be far less complaining. They are DIFFERENT GAMES.
I think the ease of flipping sides and the rise of metagaming (fightclubbing) has led people to believe that creepside and freepside are the same game. They are not. They are completely different mechanics. AND when creeps take advantage of the tools they have AND they invest the SAME amount of time then they end up just fine.
The problem is people want to compare a warg to a champ standing toe to toe and seeing who wins. That fight shouldn't be balanced. There's too many variables. There's too many advantages the warg is already giving up just BEING in that fight. There's too many things left undefined...rank...skills earned/bought...etc...
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If one creep eqauled one freep, and assuming player skill equal, how many "greenies" would be need to shift the battle in favor of the creeps? Understand now?
I understand your hypotheticals are totally worthless and without relevance.
Lol and how many of this creeps that make this statistic actually play against freeps? I, for example, log on daily on my 6 creeps at least to do OP on every one of em and do almost all PvE quests on my main creep.
So after 2 hours i had 6 creeps logged, recieved 3000-3500 infamy and still didnt kill any freep. So on the paper there are more creeps that recive more inf but in reality half of this inf is from pve. Freeps, for a change, dont PvE that much, so their renown is almost fully from creep kills.
The population disparities exist because of fundamental differences in the classes. If Turbine made the Creeps equal to the Freeps, as you say, that would alter the population and would HAVE to mean opening up Freep to F2P. That's what equal means. But of course to realize this one would need to be able to see past their nose.
Entertaining hypotheticals that will never be to try and justify imbalances present in the game is pretty absurd, too.
Lol and how many of this creeps that make this statistic actually play against freeps? I, for example, log on daily on my 6 creeps at least to do OP on every one of em and do almost all PvE quests on my main creep.
So after 2 hours i had 6 creeps logged, recieved 3000-3500 infamy and still didnt kill any freep. So on the paper there are more creeps that recive more inf but in reality half of this inf is from pve. Freeps, for a change, dont PvE that much, so their renown is almost fully from creep kills.
I do the same with my freeps, as do many freeps and creeps. I do wish the information had time played on each side, but thats not informtion we have and you can't be fair in evaluating and data when you assume something about one data set and not the other with out any evidence to support your assumption.
There are a group of people who do have that information, and they continually make freeps more OP as the population gets more and more out of balance.
"...FF is still the best server period, its like the Texas of Lotro"-Bace
1> Getting a freep character to the moors in a competative state requires FAR more hours and or TP than a creep. Period. No point even arguing. It's not even in the realm of being close.
Hours yeah, skill or difficulty no. Yeah, sure, fighting green bears in bree is the same as beeing a food for freep gank team, not being able to finish at least a quest to earn 1/1000 of needed comms.
Originally Posted by Thane9
2> As a result of #1 Creeps have a lot more flexibility with their class structure, i.e. need more healers? Chances are someone has invested the few hours it'd take to get a playable healer creep out there. Same for dps, or stealth (read wargpacks) and or ranged dps.
Lol, go and start a defiler. Rank it to r5, then we will talk. After five years of LOTRO on my server there are only 78 defilers r6 or above. After five fn years. Yesterday (was sunday) only 7 defilers r6 or above got infamy.
It is such a pain to rank a defiler, that even if minster would need to level to lvl 99 it wont still be the same.
Originally Posted by Thane9
3> Creeps DO get more powerful with ranks...even now...and although this has been mitigated with a lot of other mechanics it still does exist. Freeps have no such power curve.
Yeah man, you are right, creeps get more powerfull with ranks.... if they get that ranks. Do you know how long does it take to get to rank 8 at least?
Freeps have no such power curve, right. They start at max right away. They go to the Moors when they feel they are ready for it, when they have LI, gear, everything. And dont start please about how hard it is to get good gear, lotro PvE is a faceroll, I know this because Ive done all of it (ok, all but Saruman T2 and FF T2 challenge, didnt have time to try it aafter u7). Creeps start with nothing, they have only moors to play and maxxed freeps as an enemy, not bree bears.
Originally Posted by Thane9
The problem is people want to compare a warg to a champ standing toe to toe and seeing who wins. That fight shouldn't be balanced. There's too many variables. There's too many advantages the warg is already giving up just BEING in that fight. There's too many things left undefined...rank...skills earned/bought...etc...
Yeah sure, everyone wants to fight a cannon fodder and then tell friends how awesome he is.
Last edited by Chupakabara; May 22 2012 at 01:47 PM.
Regardless of server variance there are a few facts.
1> Getting a freep character to the moors in a competative state requires FAR more hours and or TP than a creep. Period. No point even arguing. It's not even in the realm of being close.
2> As a result of #1 Creeps have a lot more flexibility with their class structure, i.e. need more healers? Chances are someone has invested the few hours it'd take to get a playable healer creep out there. Same for dps, or stealth (read wargpacks) and or ranged dps.
3> Creeps DO get more powerful with ranks...even now...and although this has been mitigated with a lot of other mechanics it still does exist. Freeps have no such power curve.
4> Difference in movement. Creeps are slower than mounted freeps (barely in some cases) BUT they have maps. And maps throw an interesting wrinkle into the mix. Creeps can be FAR FAR more responsive to call outs than even the fastest horses. In larger numbers and in quicker response times. Again, this is irrefutable.
What does this mean?
IF Creeps were "balanced" so any given creep at any given time were a fully competative (50/50 chance of winning) toon to a freep in a stand up face to face fight, then creepside as a SIDE, would be IMMENSELY overpowered.
There are two different games going on in the moors. Freep play, which is a PvP zone for PvE players. And Creep play which is NOT LotRO the MMO. It's Creepside LotRO and is an entirely different game.
Once people understand that point I think there'd be far less complaining. They are DIFFERENT GAMES.
I think the ease of flipping sides and the rise of metagaming (fightclubbing) has led people to believe that creepside and freepside are the same game. They are not. They are completely different mechanics. AND when creeps take advantage of the tools they have AND they invest the SAME amount of time then they end up just fine.
The problem is people want to compare a warg to a champ standing toe to toe and seeing who wins. That fight shouldn't be balanced. There's too many variables. There's too many advantages the warg is already giving up just BEING in that fight. There's too many things left undefined...rank...skills earned/bought...etc...
1.) Yeah, we get that freeps spend more time with their characters. But when a creep is high ranked you'd expect them to be equal to most classes. They're not.
2.) Yeah because creeps a few hours old are totally effective in the moors.
3.) Freeps don't have a power curve because they're already to god damm powerful. As others say, it's a "PvE" game, so why would Turbine bother? Creepside doesn't have levelling, so they need the ranking system.
4.) You'll have to tell me about some cases where creep classes can catch up with mounted freeps. A warg sprinting, yes. AFAIK march + store run boost doesn't = mount. Yeah, having maps is awesome, which freepside doesn't have, but having a mount is awesome, which creepside doesn't have.
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Hours yeah, skill or difficulty no. Yeah, sure, fighting green bears in bree is the same as beeing a food for freep gank team, not being able to finish at least a quest to earn 1/1000 of needed comms.
Lol, go and start a defiler. Rank it to r5, then we will talk. After five years of LOTRO on my server there are only 78 defilers r6 or above. After five fn years. Yesterday (was sunday) only 7 defilers r6 or above got infamy.
It is such a pain to level a defiler, that even if minster would need to level to lvl 99 it wont still be the same.
Yeah man, you are right, creeps get more powerfull with ranks.... if they get that ranks. Do you know how long does it take to get to rank 8 at least?
Freeps have no such power curve, right. They start at max right away. They go to the Moors when they feel they are ready for it, when they have LI, gear, everything (and dont start please about how hard it is to get good gear, lotro PvE is a faceroll). Creeps start with nothing, they have only moors to play and maxxed freeps as an enemy, not bree bears.
Yeah sure, everyone wants to fight a cannon fodder and then tell friends how awesome he is.
You forgot to mention the actual 'boosts' from ranking are all but negligible. Field Promotions amount for next to nothing from one rank to the next and Creeps intentionally start off with 'less' than their intended stats. But other than that you saved me the trouble of replying, my proverbial hat is off to you.
The population disparities exist because of fundamental differences in the classes. If Turbine made the Creeps equal to the Freeps, as you say, that would alter the population and would HAVE to mean opening up Freep to F2P.
If more freeps entered the moors then the buffs to creeps would definately be in order (or nerfs to freeps). I said that in a previous post.
Entertaining hypotheticals that will never be to try and justify imbalances present in the game is pretty absurd, too.
The populations imbalance is very real, but hey, keep living in denile. You're very good at it. You want creeps to be the same "power" as freeps yet you ignore the huge numbers advantage they have. Right now, making is so creeps=freeps on even numbered fights sounds "balanced" but we don't play instanced PvP we play OPvP and numbers has to play into how the Ettenmoors as a whole are "balanced".
"...FF is still the best server period, its like the Texas of Lotro"-Bace
If more freeps entered the moors then the buffs to creeps would definately be in order (or nerfs to freeps). I said that in a previous post.
The populations imbalance is very real, but hey, keep living in denile. You're very good at it. You want creeps to be the same "power" as freeps yet you ignore the huge numbers advantage they have. Right now, making is so creeps=freeps on even numbered fights sounds "balanced" but we don't play instanced PvP we play OPvP and numbers has to play into how the Ettenmoors as a whole are "balanced".
But Creeps will never = Freeps. And what is more, player skill will never be equal either. So your point is profoundly worthless. And as I said, again, even if Freep efficacy =Creep efficacy did occur, the populations would obviously change. Should I say it again? You say you addressed that point...but then you premise your entire post on ignoring it. lol.
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