Thread: Sapience please anwer - PvMP balance

Originally Posted by Chupakabara

This thread was made only to get reply from Sapience or any other Turbine representative.

No, the post is clearly made to complain, not to politely ask for details about future plans.

I'm not a Moors mini and personally I'm so SICK of hearing how Minstrels are OP!! If anything Minstrels need MORE dps NOT less!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We are and have always been the underclass. I'm tired of it. If the Minstrels are nerfed in ANY way at all.. I will leave this game. I refuse to invest more time and money into it. Minstrel is the only class I play and I play it dps, NOT a healer. If that is taken away then really LOTRO is simply not worth it anymore after all these years. Each class has it's strengths and weakness.. compare.. the Minstrel has so little to work with compared to the others and we need what we have to compensate for what we do not have. The fact of the matter is that the Creeps just want it all. Doesn't everyone? They want complete dominion. They already have TOO much!! They are the ones who are OP! Maps without CD's.. the ability to go into stealth to avoid death.. MASSIVE HP and yes let's not forget they are level 75 as soon as they are born.. even if they are weak still are born with an edge that we must work and develop our char for many months or even years!! If ANY class is good in the Moors or even out of the Moors it is simply because they are good players and play their class well. The game is also more than just about the Moors. But it's always this little minority group of outpoken players who feel they can influence the devs as if they represent the entire player base (most players do not even read the forums or play the Moors) when they do not.... Who want to ruin everything with their constant whining. I'm disgusted.

Originally Posted by rushqc

Some balance would not be hard to do, did the new audacity gear was hard to put it inactivated in PVE world and activated in PVMP world? the only thing they would need to do is taking freep class and put a debuff working the same way than the audacity works. Example: any minstrels going to the moors would get a debuff getting on when they map or swift travel there, and for the minstrels, debuff of the moors should be something like: In warspeech stance, the minstrels will only be able to heals ally and those heals would be penalised with -50% outgoing healing and +50%power cost. That way, those OP minstrels able to solo npc in pve land than even the tank class would not be able to kill will continue to be able to solo more than the tank class is able to.

Posts like these make me hate creeps and the Moors both. So much prejudice against the Minstrel.. pathetic. ALL the classes have self heal abilities and let's not forget the OP defiler! As I have said before, the Minstrel needs everything it has to compensate for what he does not have and actually needs even more. Stop trying to kill the Minstrel and just become a better player! But then again, let's just kill the Moors.. that's even better. Nerf the RK too.. and LM and champ and everyone else but start with the creeps ok. Thanks.

Here's my thoughts. The Moors is just a clever way of getting new players to level up their freep. Disagree?
Take this for example:
A new player logs on to a r0 creep. He finds that he gets owned by all of the freeps on the other side. He eventually ranks up, but no matter how hard he tries, he still looses to the freeps. The new player finally says to himself "I want to do that!" So, he goes and levels up his freep to level 75 so that way HE can be the one destroying the little creeps. Don't forget that he has to buy the expansion packs and quest packs (Unless he is VIP). Turbine makes money off of it.
The creeps who actually decide to stay will eventually buy something from the LOTRO store, due to the insane commendation prices on all of the skills/traits. Therefore, Turbine makes money off of it.
If this weren't true, the Moors would be balanced (Or at least Turbine would be TRYING to balance the Moors).
How many of you guys were once a creep BEFORE you stepped into the Moors as a freep? I know I was. Seeing those freeps destroy everyone gave me the motive to level some characters to level 75. And yes, I got my minstrel to 75 BEFORE Rise of Isengard :P

Seriously, if you want PvP, play a PvP MMO. LOTRO is not a PvP game, never has been, never will be. The dev's realize this which is why, for the last 5 years, they've been pulling your chain. Once the community realizes this they'll play this game for what it was meant to be: PvE. And they'll play GW2 for its PvP, which is what that game is being developed for.

I like PvP, but not LOTRO PvP. And I do agree with all the PvE posters above, when the dev "fine-tunes" classes so that they are not OP in the Moors it ends up hurting the PvE aspect of the game (which happens to be what 75% of the people playing are doing). Turbine just needs to hit the "Delete Moors" key and be done with it.

Instead of actually developing the moors, Turbine came up with a better plan to keep people playing - just say they were planning' on adding a new map, therefore stringing people along and keeping them playing and paying without actually having to give them any new content, under the illusion that it would one day be better.
I think now, most people have seen this for what it was - just talk from Turbine. There will be no magic revamp for PvP now, it is washed up.

Originally Posted by Norwrei

Posts like these make me hate creeps and the Moors both.

It's not creeps. If you play a creep all they do is complain about how freeps are overpowered. If you're on a freep they complain about how creeps are overpowered. And I have honestly seen both complaints on the same day even!

Yes there are PVPers out there angry and any PVE player dare suggest something about PVP and we should just shut up. But I have done PvMP here. And I have been in several other games where PVP has distinctly hurt PVE due to complaints about balance or demands that something get nerfed. Some games felt like a tug of war, with one update improving a class in PVE and the next update undoing it. So it is normal for players to be paranoid about PVP screwing around with things.

Yes it is possible to completely turn off a skill in the moors, but how exactly does that help with minstrels or wardens? You propose completely eliminated a damage skill or two on them? That won't work. I don't think there's any ability currently to just limit the strength of a skill based on being in the moors, but it could be added. Is it worth wasting developers time to add this when there are more important things to do?

Originally Posted by Norwrei

I'm not a Moors mini and personally I'm so SICK of hearing how Minstrels are OP!! If anything Minstrels need MORE dps NOT less!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We are and have always been the underclass. I'm tired of it. If the Minstrels are nerfed in ANY way at all.. I will leave this game. I refuse to invest more time and money into it. Minstrel is the only class I play and I play it dps, NOT a healer. If that is taken away then really LOTRO is simply not worth it anymore after all these years. Each class has it's strengths and weakness.. compare.. the Minstrel has so little to work with compared to the others and we need what we have to compensate for what we do not have. The fact of the matter is that the Creeps just want it all. Doesn't everyone? They want complete dominion. They already have TOO much!! They are the ones who are OP! Maps without CD's.. the ability to go into stealth to avoid death.. MASSIVE HP and yes let's not forget they are level 75 as soon as they are born.. even if they are weak still are born with an edge that we must work and develop our char for many months or even years!! If ANY class is good in the Moors or even out of the Moors it is simply because they are good players and play their class well. The game is also more than just about the Moors. But it's always this little minority group of outpoken players who feel they can influence the devs as if they represent the entire player base (most players do not even read the forums or play the Moors) when they do not.... Who want to ruin everything with their constant whining. I'm disgusted.

Originally Posted by Norwrei

Posts like these make me hate creeps and the Moors both. So much prejudice against the Minstrel.. pathetic. ALL the classes have self heal abilities and let's not forget the OP defiler! As I have said before, the Minstrel needs everything it has to compensate for what he does not have and actually needs even more. Stop trying to kill the Minstrel and just become a better player! But then again, let's just kill the Moors.. that's even better. Nerf the RK too.. and LM and champ and everyone else but start with the creeps ok. Thanks.

all of those affirmation below comes from 2 of my post answers.

Originally Posted by Norwrei

I'm not a Moors mini and personally I'm so SICK of hearing how Minstrels are OP!! If anything Minstrels need MORE dps NOT less!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We are and have always been the underclass. I'm tired of it. If the Minstrels are nerfed in ANY way at all.. I will leave this game. I refuse to invest more time and money into it. Minstrel is the only class I play and I play it dps, NOT a healer.

I think that ones should be quote somewhere to make sure it stay in the archives. healing class needing more dps because someone was too stupid to take a really focus dps class, and saying he dont have enough dps, when it is one of the highest dps class

Originally Posted by Norwrei

Maps without CD's .

never saw one of those map on either side

Originally Posted by Norwrei

the ability to go into stealth to avoid death.. .

only the warg can do it and you seems to not even knowing freep class, burg do it too

Originally Posted by Norwrei

MASSIVE HP and yes let's not forget they are level 75 as soon as they are born .

maybe lot of hp, but still not enough against majority of freeps out there and being 75, but dieing faster than it takes to kill a level 50 npc

Originally Posted by Norwrei

If ANY class is good in the Moors or even out of the Moors it is simply because they are good players and play their class well.

and with what i read upthere about your minstrel opinion, you are not in this category

Originally Posted by Norwrei

The game is also more than just about the Moors.But it's always this little minority group of outpoken players who feel they can influence the devs as if they represent the entire player base (most players do not even read the forums or play the Moors) when they do not.... Who want to ruin everything with their constant whining.

why making a class balancing always means a change automatically a change in all the games aspect, i dont remember any hunter that cant use his desesperate flight since they cant used it in the moors, and that change was done 4 years ago, so we should have seen some post about it. Did you already got summoned by a captain? Probably. Its strange that you got summoned by a captain when they cant used it in PVMP, you dont think?

Originally Posted by Norwrei

Posts like these make me hate creeps and the Moors both.

It seems my signature isnt big enough since you think im a creep asking for freep nerf

Originally Posted by Norwrei

So much prejudice against the Minstrel.. pathetic. ALL the classes have self heal abilities and let's not forget the OP defiler!

OP defilers???? they have one some nice heals usable on movement, and those heals are Heal over time, but they dont have any skills hitting for 1000 damage, your minstrels have some skills that does more than that not even crit. Most of the class you talk about have self heal on freepside, you are right, but i dont know any of those class being able to heals themselves for over 1000 morale each time they need it

Originally Posted by Norwrei

As I have said before, the Minstrel needs everything it has to compensate for what he does not have and actually needs even more.

What a minstrel dont have? Wings to be able to fly and kill everything from the sky? Minstrels are already having the best healing abilities and some usable on the move, nice buff abilities, nice survial abilities(heals,bubbles, faint death, fears, mez), nice damaging skills criting really high and able to do some of them on the move, and you are saying you need all those skills since you cant fly, you are lucky, you are the only class having all those skills.

Originally Posted by Norwrei

Stop trying to kill the Minstrel and just become a better player!

coming from someone who choose minstrel to be a dps class, and saying he dont have good dps, i dont think anyone should take any kind of advice from you

Originally Posted by Norwrei

But then again, let's just kill the Moors.. that's even better. Nerf the RK too.. and LM and champ and everyone else but start with the creeps ok.

you would not be a good player after the moors just got removed, your underpowered minstrel cant be help in any way, i dont even think a intensive learning to play session with a japanese player could help you

Originally Posted by Norwrei

I'm disgusted.

So my 2 posts disgusted you so much about the creeps and the moors, im sorry for you mate, but i like i already said, my signature on those 2 posts should have been big enough for you to see it was a 90% freepside player that was thinking everything in them..

P.S. right under these
words, you should
see the signature
i was talking about

Originally Posted by site400

Seriously, if you want PvP, play a PvP MMO. LOTRO is not a PvP game, never has been, never will be. The dev's realize this which is why, for the last 5 years, they've been pulling your chain. Once the community realizes this they'll play this game for what it was meant to be: PvE. And they'll play GW2 for its PvP, which is what that game is being developed for.

I like PvP, but not LOTRO PvP. And I do agree with all the PvE posters above, when the dev "fine-tunes" classes so that they are not OP in the Moors it ends up hurting the PvE aspect of the game (which happens to be what 75% of the people playing are doing). Turbine just needs to hit the "Delete Moors" key and be done with it.

what is so hard to understand about a debuff getting active only in the moors for balancing class. they got able to make armor with bonus only activated in the moors, its should be really easy to do a debuff for each class for the moors working the same way, RK debuff in the moors should be capped on their max critical hit, like no more 9000 morale creep one-shot by a devastating over 10,000 damage Epic Conclusion. maxing crit to 4-5k should be good

Originally Posted by Lohi

It's not creeps. If you play a creep all they do is complain about how freeps are overpowered. If you're on a freep they complain about how creeps are overpowered. And I have honestly seen both complaints on the same day even!

Yes there are PVPers out there angry and any PVE player dare suggest something about PVP and we should just shut up. But I have done PvMP here. And I have been in several other games where PVP has distinctly hurt PVE due to complaints about balance or demands that something get nerfed. Some games felt like a tug of war, with one update improving a class in PVE and the next update undoing it. So it is normal for players to be paranoid about PVP screwing around with things.

Yes it is possible to completely turn off a skill in the moors, but how exactly does that help with minstrels or wardens? You propose completely eliminated a damage skill or two on them? That won't work. I don't think there's any ability currently to just limit the strength of a skill based on being in the moors, but it could be added. Is it worth wasting developers time to add this when there are more important things to do?

not removing skill, putting a debuff working like the audacity works and on minstrels, only put the warspeech penalty they were having on outgoing healing and power cost, and to get out of warspeech to be able to heals themself, that way, they can crit for 4-5k with damaging skills and crit a heals right after that on them for 4-5k morale.

and dont you think it would be better to do those change than creating new cosmetics, revamping old map for players not able to start playing a game before they can play free or buy it for 10$? remember most of the player playing pvp are paying every month to play, even if we are the minority of the game, most paid, can we say 90% of the pve players are paying to? most of them never paid month fee and maybe they have buy points some times, dont you agree player who had paid for 3-4 years own the rights to ask some ettenmoors only change that would not affect pve land
i have spent between 700$ and 1000$, i dont think majority of players in pve land have paid over 500$ and those one are playing for 4-5 years, the peoples that start playing in the last 2 years have probably paid one monthly fee to get the vip status and stop it right after a month, saving them really much Turbine Point to unlock AH, bags, the caps on cash etc..

rush learn to express your opinion without personally attacking others.. until then I doubt you will get the ear nor the respect that you think you should have..thanks.. happy trolling.

Originally Posted by Norwrei

I'm not a Moors mini and personally I'm so SICK of hearing how Minstrels are OP!! If anything Minstrels need MORE dps NOT less!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We are and have always been the underclass. I'm tired of it. If the Minstrels are nerfed in ANY way at all.. I will leave this game. I refuse to invest more time and money into it. Minstrel is the only class I play and I play it dps, NOT a healer. If that is taken away then really LOTRO is simply not worth it anymore after all these years. Each class has it's strengths and weakness.. compare.. the Minstrel has so little to work with compared to the others and we need what we have to compensate for what we do not have. The fact of the matter is that the Creeps just want it all. Doesn't everyone? They want complete dominion. They already have TOO much!! They are the ones who are OP! Maps without CD's.. the ability to go into stealth to avoid death.. MASSIVE HP and yes let's not forget they are level 75 as soon as they are born.. even if they are weak still are born with an edge that we must work and develop our char for many months or even years!! If ANY class is good in the Moors or even out of the Moors it is simply because they are good players and play their class well. The game is also more than just about the Moors. But it's always this little minority group of outpoken players who feel they can influence the devs as if they represent the entire player base (most players do not even read the forums or play the Moors) when they do not.... Who want to ruin everything with their constant whining. I'm disgusted.

Wake up call buddy! Mini is meant to be a healing class. If you wanted to dps and have the ability to heal, then you should have chosen the Runekeeper.

Really, you cannot compare any creep side class with any freep class. Due to the comms prices, you guys generally have more skills. Due to Turbine's faulty Moors balancing you have, overall, the better chance to beat any creep.

Defilers and Wargs are Op huh? Well Wardens, Champions, and Minstrels are all OP. I have to deal with people (some of which are new to Moors) owning me almost every day because they can spam their highest dps ability/bubble/flop/fully heal themselves while dealing out insane dps.

You guys are underclassed? Imho the most underclassed and neglected class in this game is the Hunters. Everyone else seems to be god-mode except the poor hunters.

I have seen many good creepside players and creepside vets get destroyed by new Freeps simply because they are overpowered. That is wrong.

You may be a PvE Mini (and a bad one it seems, since you think you need more dps, but there are people in this game who enjoy PvP. You wanna have what you want and you don't care about what other people want. Selfishness

Heck many Minnies I know say "We are op!". I have never seen one until you who wants Mini to remain in its god-mode state. Im disgusted.

All most of us are calling for is balanced pvmp, but apparently that is too much to ask for.

Originally Posted by Norwrei

rush learn to express your opinion without personally attacking others.. until then I doubt you will get the ear nor the respect that you think you should have..thanks.. happy trolling.

I don't know where you saw any trolling or personal attacks in Rush's posts, but I didnt see any. You were the coming on to the PvMP forums to complain when you are a PvE Mini. Not to mention you basically trolled and attacked everyone on this thread with that last post of yours.

Originally Posted by Norwrei

Posts like these make me hate creeps and the Moors both. So much prejudice against the Minstrel.. pathetic. ALL the classes have self heal abilities and let's not forget the OP defiler! As I have said before, the Minstrel needs everything it has to compensate for what he does not have and actually needs even more. Stop trying to kill the Minstrel and just become a better player! But then again, let's just kill the Moors.. that's even better. Nerf the RK too.. and LM and champ and everyone else but start with the creeps ok. Thanks.

Lol you bring up self freakin heals? Those generally don't heal us to full health.....

Originally Posted by rushqc

I think that ones should be quote somewhere to make sure it stay in the archives. healing class needing more dps because someone was too stupid to take a really focus dps class, and saying he dont have enough dps, when it is one of the highest dps class......and with what i read upthere about your minstrel opinion, you are not in this category.....coming from someone who choose minstrel to be a dps class, and saying he dont have good dps, i dont think anyone should take any kind of advice from you.....you would not be a good player after the moors just got removed, your underpowered minstrel cant be help in any way, i dont even think a intensive learning to play session with a japanese player could help you

rush this is my last post to you because normally I ignore rude people who do not know how to express an opinion without personally attacking others who they do not even know. Please learn to do that. There was no need to personally attack me like that. You do not know me. I don't know you either nor did I personally attack you. You have no idea what kind of player I am or what my intelligence is to call me "stupid" or a "bad player" simply because I dps my Minstrel. However thanks to share your opinion because the REAL truth comes out.. you have something against Minstrels who dps and think Minstrels are or should be only a healing class and need to remain as such... and your last line about learning from a Japanese player.. wow just wow. I do not know your age so you could be a child. Even if you are a kid/teen please learn some manners. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Selebrimbor

I don't know where you saw any trolling or personal attacks in Rush's posts, but I didnt see any. You were the coming on to the PvMP forums to complain when you are a PvE Mini. Not to mention you basically trolled and attacked everyone on this thread with that last post of yours.

Actually when I first posted, this was NOT in the pvp forum. It is now it seems. Initially it was in the General Forums otherwise I wouldn't have even read this thread. Secondly if you read closer you will see his personal attacks... skipping over and ignoring everything else you said simply because I do not feeling like arguing.... and... Finally I can agree with you on one thing only.. I am TERRIBLE at pvp and I even started my post by saying I am NOT an Etten Minstrel nor shall I ever be. Having said that.. I'm out of this forum. Take care all.

PS One more thing.. I did not personally attack anyone, not even you. I made a general statement. There is a huge difference between making a general statement and actually personally attacking someone as he did me and as you did too in several of your posts but I just did not feel like taking the time to respond.

Originally Posted by Norwrei

I'm not a Moors mini and personally I'm so SICK of hearing how Minstrels are OP!! If anything Minstrels need MORE dps NOT less!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We are and have always been the underclass. I'm tired of it. If the Minstrels are nerfed in ANY way at all.. I will leave this game. I refuse to invest more time and money into it. Minstrel is the only class I play and I play it dps, NOT a healer. If that is taken away then really LOTRO is simply not worth it anymore after all these years. Each class has it's strengths and weakness.. compare.. the Minstrel has so little to work with compared to the others and we need what we have to compensate for what we do not have. The fact of the matter is that the Creeps just want it all. Doesn't everyone? They want complete dominion. They already have TOO much!! They are the ones who are OP! Maps without CD's.. the ability to go into stealth to avoid death.. MASSIVE HP and yes let's not forget they are level 75 as soon as they are born.. even if they are weak still are born with an edge that we must work and develop our char for many months or even years!! If ANY class is good in the Moors or even out of the Moors it is simply because they are good players and play their class well. The game is also more than just about the Moors. But it's always this little minority group of outpoken players who feel they can influence the devs as if they represent the entire player base (most players do not even read the forums or play the Moors) when they do not.... Who want to ruin everything with their constant whining. I'm disgusted.

There is so much nonsense in this post my head almost exploded. I very seriously doubt we are playing the same game.

Its pretty apparent that you know very little about pvmp, and i am questioning your knowledge of the minstrel class as well.

I'll take a note out of your book and say posts like this make me hate people who spout off about pvmp when actually they know next to nothing, yet still feel the need to throw a temper tantrum because people are asking for a little developer resources on a part of the game they enjoy the most.

The minstrel lacks in no area, damage or heals. About the only thing thats left to give us is little +'s beside our names and "Ranged Smite"

So this thread was moved to the PvMP section, now it can be closed because it is clear that nobody in Turbine gives a damn about PvMP section.

Originally Posted by Chupakabara

So this thread was moved to the PvMP section, now it can be closed because it is clear that nobody in Turbine gives a damn about PvMP section.

Hey, at least that means it got Sapience's (or Celestrata's, or Ornaith's) attention!

LOL Turbine!

You can discuss anything at General Discussion or Suggestions forums, but when it's about PvMP, it'll be moved almost immediately to PvMP section, where noone except PvP'ers look. It seems to me that you're ashamed of what you've created. You don't even want to see topics about your horrible PvP design, where everyone can see. It's like sweeping things under the carpet.

Best solution to you, PvP'ers: Unsubscribe, don't spend a penny in Turbine Store, don't go to Ettenmoors. Just PvE in this game or go to another game for PvP. This is the only way you can get attention of a company that only cares about money.

Originally Posted by Elemiire

Why don't you people stop suggesting a 'nerf' to Minstrels and ask for more ballance instead?

I wouldn't mind if they turn whatever class you play into an 'overpowered' one, but..

/rant

DON'T TOUCH MY MINSTREL.

/rant over.

Thank you.

Why does an unranked minstrel care about changes to PvMP?

I still reckon in order to start with basic balance they should give either give out PvP centric gear that is easily attainable, or upon entering the moors standardize equip and stats for every freep class regardless of their equipment.

So say when entering the moors every hunter has the same weapons and armour. The only way left to individualize are by legacies, traits and virtues. When every class has the same setup it is easier to start for balance. Stats and DPS worldwide could be tweaked on a more frequent basis.

This would leave room to tackle individual class balances and tweaks as well. Would surely make room and time for development.

Originally Posted by Chupakabara

Sapience, please give us official answer - will Turbine fix minstrels and wardens in PvMP in near future?

Its really pathetic to look at freep raids that contains of 80% minstrels. Nerf damage or nerf self heals in war speech.

It takes 5-6 creeps to kill a skilled warden, there self heals are just crazy. One warden can solo a keep, w t f?

Will you ever fix this? Give us honest answer please.

PS Dont even want to start discussions about 7k freeps crits or 84 sec uncurable dots.

PPS Please dont spam this thread with messages like "minstrels need damage to solo pve" or "wardens need self heals to tank orthanc". There is already a mechanic of "Not usable in Monster Play" so your PvE could stay in its current state (I raid too so i understand all this)

Why do they need to fix it? I think they are working as intended or in the last two updates we would have had a nerf. The game is not designed for pvp it is pve and for the tactical that is needed to beat end game ie saruman, it is needed to be up quite a bit.
When ever there is a creep that gives me problems to beat, I relook at the situation and decide how I can make things go right , not whine that creep is over powered.

When the creep flavor of the month is known, you see mostly of those classes. People are rolling minstrels yes, but I honestly wouldn't give up mine for the world, played it to level 50 w/ no ws and got rank 9 without ws. I wouldnt trade my min for the world.

The more the devs listen to what ever side needs nerfing the more unbalanced pvmp gets.

The best answer here is I guess we must learn to adapt. I am not happy with flayer stance, do I wish sometimes it gets nerfed? Yes, am I gonna ask that it gets nerfed? no.

Originally Posted by Zalexia

Why do they need to fix it? I think they are working as intended or in the last two updates we would have had a nerf. The game is not designed for pvp it is pve and for the tactical that is needed to beat end game ie saruman, it is needed to be up quite a bit.
When ever there is a creep that gives me problems to beat, I relook at the situation and decide how I can make things go right , not whine that creep is over powered.

When the creep flavor of the month is known, you see mostly of those classes. People are rolling minstrels yes, but I honestly wouldn't give up mine for the world, played it to level 50 w/ no ws and got rank 9 without ws. I wouldnt trade my min for the world.

The more the devs listen to what ever side needs nerfing the more unbalanced pvmp gets.

The best answer here is I guess we must learn to adapt. I am not happy with flayer stance, do I wish sometimes it gets nerfed? Yes, am I gonna ask that it gets nerfed? no.

We're not asking that you give up your minstrel. We're asking that they get nerfed.

Let me ask you something. Cut your damage output (in WS) by half. Get rid of self heals. Lower mitigations. Now, let's say you faced a Warleader whose shouts did 2k damage each and you couldn't break through their heals. Would you complain? I bet you would.

Originally Posted by Stevo6

We're not asking that you give up your minstrel. We're asking that they get nerfed.

Speak for yourself, I don't particularly want a nerf to minstrels. My only complaint is that Creep DPS classes should be able to DPS through a spam healing WS mini. Frankly, I do want a nerf to shield wardens in the moors. The sheer amount of effort required to kill them is absurd.

Originally Posted by Chupakabara

So this thread was moved to the PvMP section, now it can be closed because it is clear that nobody in Turbine gives a damn about PvMP section.

Seems it has been trimmed as well. Post of mine, indicating that in my opinion (which I presume we're allowed to express) no changes will be made to PvP because WB/T have decided that it is easier to constructively dismiss the whole concept i.e make it so bad to play that people will eventually stop going.

There was also a comment about how as WB/T make money out of PvP though T** S**** PvP players are entitled to ask for improvements in PvP.

Posts disappearing, very disappointed.

Well you call for balance, yet nerfing is a clear way that unbalances the game. One side will be weaker then the other and then overpowered at some point in time. If you been there since soa time you will realize that things balance in time. I say nerfing is the opposite of balanced pvmp. I didnt say that it would make me give up my minstrel, i'm saying instead of whining a class is op , learn to beat it. Saruman tier2 has finally been beaten on our server and a german server not sure where else.... They had to over come many deaths in order to beat it. It has taken its toll on kins all over the place. We could have whined and said make the instance easier. Cheers to turbine for leaving it the way it is. Maybe instead of crying something is hard, to figure out how to beat it.

Originally Posted by Zalexia

Well you call for balance, yet nerfing is a clear way that unbalances the game. One side will be weaker then the other and then overpowered at some point in time. If you been there since soa time you will realize that things balance in time. I say nerfing is the opposite of balanced pvmp. I didnt say that it would make me give up my minstrel, i'm saying instead of whining a class is op , learn to beat it. Saruman tier2 has finally been beaten on our server and a german server not sure where else.... They had to over come many deaths in order to beat it. It has taken its toll on kins all over the place. We could have whined and said make the instance easier. Cheers to turbine for leaving it the way it is. Maybe instead of crying something is hard, to figure out how to beat it.

Minstrels were overpowered BEFORE the coda and WS self heals.
The way it is now there is no possible way to beat a good minstrel without a zerg.


Also, guess how kins are now just beating saruman T2? THEY NERFED IT!

My two cents..

There's literally no way for a well-played warg to beat a well-played mini. If I took my minstrel out to a 1v1 circle and played cheap (spam CoS and HoTs) I wouldn't just win, I'd be at 80% morale when the fights over.

That being said. I've read a statistic that only ~10% of mmo players are considered "hardcore" raiders. I think that statistic can be applied to the moors in that only ~10% of moors participants can be considered any good. Currently I can beat the majority of minstrels consistently when I catch them solo (granted, wargs are in a very good place). If a nerf is incoming it should be considered carefully, its a fine line between beating the majority of minstrels and beating 100% of minstrels out there.

P.S. Shadow >>>> Flayer when fighting minis

Originally Posted by CorporateMannequins

My two cents..

There's literally no way for a well-played warg to beat a well-played mini. If I took my minstrel out to a 1v1 circle and played cheap (spam CoS and HoTs) I wouldn't just win, I'd be at 80% morale when the fights over.

That being said. I've read a statistic that only ~10% of mmo players are considered "hardcore" raiders. I think that statistic can be applied to the moors in that only ~10% of moors participants can be considered any good. Currently I can beat the majority of minstrels consistently when I catch them solo (granted, wargs are in a very good place). If a nerf is incoming it should be considered carefully, its a fine line between beating the majority of minstrels and beating 100% of minstrels out there.

P.S. Shadow >>>> Flayer when fighting minis

I agree completely. But, consider then the majority of Wargs, yourself excluded. How do you imagine they fare against these average Minstrels?

Better players will always excel, I don't think it is a very serious part of the calculation. I go around beating Champs on my Warg, those same (bad) Champs will trounce the average mid ranked Warg. I say just nerf it, if it is obviously OP. Minstrels are obviously OP (and Champs!).

Originally Posted by avengingbananaslug

I really get the feeling it's mostly creeps complaining on here and that's why they keep getting unneeded buffs like warfs getting a completely unnecessary health stealing ability when they're already OP. People complain about minis but WLs are way more OP in a raid from a healing standpoint. 3 WLs together is way stronger than 3 minis healing wise because of how ridiculous they are to kill. Minis can be burned down fairly easily but WLs can just get their bubbles up and stay alive indefinitely.

This is not to mention of course those wargs which can stay alive no matter what. Burgs can HIPs but you never see burg packs and if you get on a burg they die a lot quicker than wargs.

Originally Posted by Untg99

Minstrels were overpowered BEFORE the coda and WS self heals.
The way it is now there is no possible way to beat a good minstrel without a zerg.


Also, guess how kins are now just beating saruman T2? THEY NERFED IT!

I dont think it was nerfed per say, I think they fixed the glitches.

Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk

I agree completely. But, consider then the majority of Wargs, yourself excluded. How do you imagine they fare against these average Minstrels?

Better players will always excel, I don't think it is a very serious part of the calculation. I go around beating Champs on my Warg, those same (bad) Champs will trounce the average mid ranked Warg. I say just nerf it, if it is obviously OP. Minstrels are obviously OP (and Champs!).

The classes arent op , the people playing them are op. Theres a difference.

Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk

I agree completely. But, consider then the majority of Wargs, yourself excluded. How do you imagine they fare against these average Minstrels?

Better players will always excel, I don't think it is a very serious part of the calculation. I go around beating Champs on my Warg, those same (bad) Champs will trounce the average mid ranked Warg. I say just nerf it, if it is obviously OP. Minstrels are obviously OP (and Champs!).

And there's the issue... what does Turbine balance for?

1v1 class balance between the best players?

1v1 class balance between average players?

6v6 balance?

RvR balance?

I have no idea what the answer to this question is, although I have my own opinion (I'd rather not see 1v1 balance being the focus, as 1v1s are largely a meta-game player-created construct in the Moors - 1v1 circles, CM - and not a natural byproduct of the PvP environment.)

But that's just my opinion, just as it's solely the opinion of others that everything should be balanced around 1v1s.

Opinion of what should be done aside, I am impressed that, five years into the life of this game, people are still hoping for 1v1 class balance in a game that doesn't have mirrored classes.

(Standard disclaimer regarding the fact that I'm aware of the imbalances, yada yada yada.)

Originally Posted by Lestache

And there's the issue... what does Turbine balance for?

1v1 class balance between the best players?

1v1 class balance between average players?

6v6 balance?

RvR balance?

I have no idea what the answer to this question is, although I have my own opinion (I'd rather not see 1v1 balance being the focus, as 1v1s are largely a meta-game player-created construct in the Moors - 1v1 circles, CM - and not a natural byproduct of the PvP environment.)

But that's just my opinion, just as it's solely the opinion of others that everything should be balanced around 1v1s.

Opinion of what should be done aside, I am impressed that, five years into the life of this game, people are still hoping for 1v1 class balance in a game that doesn't have mirrored classes.

(Standard disclaimer regarding the fact that I'm aware of the imbalances, yada yada yada.)

wishes they had a like button .

Originally Posted by Lestache

And there's the issue... what does Turbine balance for?

1v1 class balance between the best players?

1v1 class balance between average players?

6v6 balance?

RvR balance?

I have no idea what the answer to this question is, although I have my own opinion (I'd rather not see 1v1 balance being the focus, as 1v1s are largely a meta-game player-created construct in the Moors - 1v1 circles, CM - and not a natural byproduct of the PvP environment.)

But that's just my opinion, just as it's solely the opinion of others that everything should be balanced around 1v1s.

Opinion of what should be done aside, I am impressed that, five years into the life of this game, people are still hoping for 1v1 class balance in a game that doesn't have mirrored classes.

(Standard disclaimer regarding the fact that I'm aware of the imbalances, yada yada yada.)

They should let me decide what to change. I'd make everything perfect.

Originally Posted by Zalexia

Well you call for balance, yet nerfing is a clear way that unbalances the game. One side will be weaker then the other and then overpowered at some point in time. If you been there since soa time you will realize that things balance in time. I say nerfing is the opposite of balanced pvmp. I didnt say that it would make me give up my minstrel, i'm saying instead of whining a class is op , learn to beat it. Saruman tier2 has finally been beaten on our server and a german server not sure where else.... They had to over come many deaths in order to beat it. It has taken its toll on kins all over the place. We could have whined and said make the instance easier. Cheers to turbine for leaving it the way it is. Maybe instead of crying something is hard, to figure out how to beat it.

Have you EVER played Creepside to a decent rank? As a Mini, you KNOW how op you and freeps are in general. Its not about Creeps overcoming and understanding and learning how to win. Such a croc of sheet.

Take off your freep goggles sometime and see the Moors for what they really are: One faction fighting w/ m16's and the other with gd bb guns.



It will never change either.

Originally Posted by Blackheart-Fury

Have you EVER played Creepside to a decent rank? As a Mini, you KNOW how op you and freeps are in general. Its not about Creeps overcoming and understanding and learning how to win. Such a croc of sheet.

Take off your freep goggles sometime and see the Moors for what they really are: One faction fighting w/ m16's and the other with gd bb guns.



It will never change either.

There are days I'm frustrated too, but , maybe you should try levelling a freep up to 75, grinding li's , seals, gear and crystals , traits and virtues... if u wanna play those cards. There is a lot of work involved in making an op toon and I have heard most of my under audacity geared friends say its rough w/ no audacity. There is a lot that goes into making a freep win and theres a lot that goes into making a creep win. I dont have to play to know who has done the work and research to see whose good and whose not.

Turbine has given the answer in the last 5 years by what they have done to the moors. Creeps are meant to be inferior. This will not change. Accept it. If you cant stand it, dont log in as a creep.

Originally Posted by Lestache

And there's the issue... what does Turbine balance for?

I have no idea what the answer to this question is

I do. Bring back the balance level from SoA book 12-14. This period is considered by most of the Moors vets as the closest to balance. Thats it, thats all.