Thread: Sapience please anwer - PvMP balance

Sapience, please give us official answer - will Turbine fix minstrels and wardens in PvMP in near future?

Its really pathetic to look at freep raids that contains of 80% minstrels. Nerf damage or nerf self heals in war speech.

It takes 5-6 creeps to kill a skilled warden, there self heals are just crazy. One warden can solo a keep, w t f?

Will you ever fix this? Give us honest answer please.

PS Dont even want to start discussions about 7k freeps crits or 84 sec uncurable dots.

PPS Please dont spam this thread with messages like "minstrels need damage to solo pve" or "wardens need self heals to tank orthanc". There is already a mechanic of "Not usable in Monster Play" so your PvE could stay in its current state (I raid too so i understand all this)

If you can't take your character out there and use their skills, what would be the point? Instead of taking away skills, why not add self heals similar to those of the mini and warden to creep classes that would warrent them.

Originally Posted by idlehands79

If you can't take your character out there and use their skills, what would be the point? Instead of taking away skills, why not add self heals similar to those of the mini and warden to creep classes that would warrent them.

Why not just play a mini or a warden?

The moors will not ever be balanced and that is all there is too it. End of story.

The answer is probably short, and similiar to this:

Turbine hasn't yet realized they can make a class debuff to each class applied only when in the moors. The icon to show for it would be similar to the OutNumbered buff, in that it would show the icon under the player so you could see which debuff.

Then after each expansion, they could tweak classes for the moors for balance WITHOUT needing to ruin a class which would affect the PvE of the class.


P.S. They could also start by not nerfing CC with Audacity.

Speaking of completely pathethic, warg packs should get a penalty. That's all there are in the moors now, 90% wargs. It's completely taking the fun out of the moors especially since they can completely interrupt parables and call to valor which both state they cannot be interrupted. As loremaster its freakin rediculous to even go there and i have dropped vip because of it. There never will be balance in the moors so might as well stop crying about it. Not like turbfail or warner cares, their making the only thing that counts: money.

Why don't you people stop suggesting a 'nerf' to Minstrels and ask for more ballance instead?

I wouldn't mind if they turn whatever class you play into an 'overpowered' one, but..

/rant

DON'T TOUCH MY MINSTREL.

/rant over.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Graycient

The answer is probably short, and similiar to this...

Not really. They've played every game out there, most are quite experienced game designers, and people have suggested such adjustments since the game launched. The real answer is closer to "Adding gameplay-specific adjustments to stats, skills, etc is too much work and isn't a high enough priority to make the cut list. Also, because PvMP is largely a group activity, we're not going to balance it at the class level."

PvP class balancing is a black hole for development time and testing (which is one reason so many PvE people get so wound up over it... once they start down that road, it will suck up lots of their time). IMO, it's better that they take a broad view of it, and first try to deal with faction imbalances - not class imbalances.

Khafar

PvP is dead mate.


Silence from all the PvP developers since U6 suggests they just don't care anymore.
Mix that with all the promises their new developers bring, you would certainly get that idea.

Originally Posted by Khafar

IMO, it's better that they take a broad view of it, and first try to deal with faction imbalances - not class imbalances.

True. It would be better IF they would do it.

Originally Posted by Felajarko

Why not just play a mini or a warden?

The moors will not ever be balanced and that is all there is too it. End of story.

Same can be said on creep side just roll a warg or Ba so stop QQing if you dont like it dont go out there simple or deal with it like most of us do

Originally Posted by norward

Same can be said on creep side just roll a warg or Ba so stop QQing if you dont like it dont go out there simple or deal with it like most of us do

Because the moors are so heavily 'balanced' toward the freep side it is ridiculous. You would have to be insane (or a freep or a dev) not to see it. There needs to be more balance to creep side to bring it up to freep side. I don't want to see a nerf to anyone (well, maybe minis) but instead giving buffs to creeps to make them a challenge to freeps. Otherwise creeps are nothing more than glorified NPCs that freeps can roll over.

And if you are comparing a BA to a warden, you may need to get your head examined.....

I really get the feeling it's mostly creeps complaining on here and that's why they keep getting unneeded buffs like warfs getting a completely unnecessary health stealing ability when they're already OP. People complain about minis but WLs are way more OP in a raid from a healing standpoint. 3 WLs together is way stronger than 3 minis healing wise because of how ridiculous they are to kill. Minis can be burned down fairly easily but WLs can just get their bubbles up and stay alive indefinitely.

This is not to mention of course those wargs which can stay alive no matter what. Burgs can HIPs but you never see burg packs and if you get on a burg they die a lot quicker than wargs.

If they make it balanced then that would mean making one freep equal to 5 creeps. Watching the movies and reading the books I always got the feeling that creeps were nothing more than cannon fodder and not the equal of any capable fighter.

On the other hand I would like it if come Mordor we did get a fully fledged crrep faction.

Originally Posted by guguzza71

If they make it balanced then that would mean making one freep equal to 5 creeps. Watching the movies and reading the books I always got the feeling that creeps were nothing more than cannon fodder and not the equal of any capable fighter.

Yes...that's--effectively--what Sauron's forces are.

On the other hand I would like it if come Mordor we did get a fully fledged crrep faction.

That would mean writing a complete second game, and obtaining a license to do so. Don't hold your breath.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by Felajarko

Because the moors are so heavily 'balanced' toward the freep side it is ridiculous. You would have to be insane (or a freep or a dev) not to see it. There needs to be more balance to creep side to bring it up to freep side. I don't want to see a nerf to anyone (well, maybe minis) but instead giving buffs to creeps to make them a challenge to freeps. Otherwise creeps are nothing more than glorified NPCs that freeps can roll over.

And if you are comparing a BA to a warden, you may need to get your head examined.....

Not once did I compare the BA to the warden I am saying that the Warg and BA are the best of the Creeps and can do very good Damage ATM......So I think your the one that has to stop making Assumptions on who is comparing what and as for Mini being nerfed how many times do you want them nerfed maybe give them no heals and no defenses and 1 emote that's say free infamy and send them out there again.....

Nobody is asking for a "complete balance" with mirror classes, same skills, same dps and so on. What i ask for is a fix to a ridiculous state the Moors are in atm.

Minstrels and wardens are not just OP, they are God mode. And if wardens require at least a bit of skill minis are just a mindless kiting button spam. I have a mini and I play with it in the Moors from time to time so I know. This all gets to an extreme level with the ammount of new minstrels, very often i see packs of 5-6 minis. In a raid situations minis are running in front with guards pew pew from behind...

And if we are speeking about wargs - why people roll wargs? Because starting any other character nowdays is almost impossible with this commendation grind on both sides. Without audacity you are useless, without skills aswell. So all you can do are quests. Good for you if you play in off peak hours. If not - half of the map will be permanently blue for you (say bb to your TR maps) and the only places you are left to quest will be full of low skill freeps thats are hunting easy comms and renown.

Pre commendation era it was the same, but all you needed was just a rank. You needed only 15k of infamy to be somehow competitive. Now you need tons of comms (one skill 2000, one trait 1500, one corruption 1000, audacity rank 6000) that you get in lower rate than ranks.

So basically if you play on a pop server in a peak hours your experience with new non-warg creep will be terrible. But hey, you only need to grind like 50000 comms to be competitive...

PS If you make PvP, then lore needs to be bend. Nobody wants to play a canon fodder. Nobody wants to spend hours of their lifes ranking a useless orc that cant solo anything.

Originally Posted by idlehands79

If you can't take your character out there and use their skills, what would be the point? Instead of taking away skills, why not add self heals similar to those of the mini and warden to creep classes that would warrent them.

yeah great idea, and after giving all creep class the minstrels healing abilities, you will have to give it to all the others freep class

Originally Posted by Elemiire

Why don't you people stop suggesting a 'nerf' to Minstrels and ask for more balance instead?
I wouldn't mind if they turn whatever class you play into an 'overpowered' one, but.. /rant DON'T TOUCH MY MINSTREL. /rant over. Thank you.

First, they should have left Warspeech like it was before, no reason a minstrel can do so much damage and be able to heal themself so much at the same time, with their bubbles, with their faint dead, they were already having good survivabilities skills in warspeech, giving them ability to heals themselves in warspeech with no penalty is complety OP. The only change they should have done to warspeech was to let minstrels being able to heals themselves too, but with the power cost and outgoing healing penalty.

Originally Posted by Khafar

"Adding gameplay-specific adjustments to stats, skills, etc is too much work and isn't a high enough priority to make the cut list. Also, because PvMP is largely a group activity, we're not going to balance it at the class level."

When they decided a captain would not be able to summon in the moors anymore, or hunter would not be able to used desesperate flight, it didnt seems to gave them so much trouble. And pve players crying about developpers should not loose time and money on pvmp, because only a minority play pvmp, i will answer:" Yeah, great comments, developpers should really focused on revamping old maps and instances, developpers should focused on designing new morale and power pots icons every update, not only once every 2-4 updates, and please developpers, spend more money, time and put the majority of the developpers you have on cosmetics clothes designing. Housing and festivals should get more money and time invest on it too." I suppose majority of the player are finding that side of the game more important than pvmp, right? One thing is sure, majority of the pvmp players are paying the monthly subscription, and large numbers of them are spending a lot of cash in the store. So taking the time and money to put to each freep class a debuff when they get in the moors dont seemed to me to be too much cosmetics hats lost for pve player. They are probably planning to destroy Urugarth and Carn Dum in update 1 after the release of Rohan expansion. They can take that money and report it to update 2.

Originally Posted by Khafar

PvP class balancing is a black hole for development time and testing (which is one reason so many PvE people get so wound up over it... it will suck up lots of their time). IMO, it's better that they take a broad view of it, and first try to deal with faction imbalances - not class imbalances.

Balancing faction is not possible to do, 24 skilled players in raid who played together for a long time, 24 skilled players in raid for the first time and 24 "no skills at all" players together, with same numbers of each creeps class or freeps class, the skilled players could be freepside and wiped without any lost the "no skills at all" players creeping, and the same raid but skilled players on the creepside and "no skills at all" players freeping, with the results of freeps deaths, 24 and+ depending on numbers of in-combat rez and creeps deaths of 0.

Originally Posted by norward

as for Mini being nerfed how many times do you want them nerfed maybe give them no heals and no defenses and 1 emote that's say free infamy and send them out there again.....

So you think Mini got nerfed? They were already having heals, they were already having defenses, they were already having nice damage output, some of the damage skills usable on movement. But why should they have all of them usable? Ranged skills doing tactical damage, so they cannot be block, evade or parry. Even when they were not able to heals themselves, they were one of the strongest class in the pvmp, so if they are strong against real brain opponents, peoples crying about solo pve should go play something else. And normally, when you are playing a healing class in a mmo, peoples are supposed to know it will be longer and/or harder for them to advances in pve.

Originally Posted by Graycient

P.S. They could also start by not nerfing CC with Audacity.

They should stop spending money to balance that. All the slow, stun, mez, knockdown, roots, speed buff skills should just have no CC effects in the moors. By doing that, they wont have to spend money and time on finding a solution about CC so they wont need to sacrifice money and time that would have penalize pve players with less new cosmetics cloaks and hats in the store.



P.S. i would really like to know why in pvmp change, suggestion or balance thread, majority of the posters are peoples not doing pvmp at all. Turbine knows already about the fact minority of players doing pvmp. And maybe if less pve players would post in them, fear to see Turbine nerfing a class just to be sure creeps are happy, when like i said, they knows only a minority played pvmp, they could takes less time to read them and answering them.

Balancing this games PvMP would have very little to do with the lore if you were to look at the actual intended concept of current PvMP.

It is disgusting how unfair the PvP is and has increasingly been so been since U5. And it certainly is not just wardens and minstrels. The whole creep faction needs a dedicated revamp. Perhaps they could add that to their calendar instead of moving some quest mobs in moria?

Nope. Apparent to me at least that the producers have probably had off with the PvMP designers.

Originally Posted by rushqc

First, they should have left Warspeech like it was before, no reason a minstrel can do so much damage and be able to heal themself so much at the same time, with their bubbles, with their faint dead, they were already having good survivabilities skills in warspeech, giving them ability to heals themselves in warspeech with no penalty is complety OP. The only change they should have done to warspeech was to let minstrels being able to heals themselves too, but with the power cost and outgoing healing penalty..

When I first started playing, War Speech cut all your healing in half, but still allowed you access to all of your healing spells. Now, it entirely eliminates your group heals, & makes all of your other heals self-only. Which would you rather have? It seems to me like six of one, half a dozen of the other.

As for the Moors themselves, the only time I've set foot in them recently was in prime time, a few days ago. I spent about an hour there. I never saw a single Freep the whole time; it was nothing but a PvE quest grind. Most of the forts were controlled by the Creeps. I putz'd about doing dumb PvE quests for a while, was bored stiff, & logged out. I won't be back, regardless of what Turbine does or doesn't do.

Originally Posted by rushqc

P.S. i would really like to know why in pvmp change, suggestion or balance thread, majority of the posters are peoples not doing pvmp at all

This should imply to you that the majority of LOTRO players have no interest in PvMP.

Why should the developers do anything to support something that only a minority care about? & before you say, "But what about RAIDS, only a minority care about them!" please don't bother. It's true that only a minority raid; it's not true that only a minority care about raiding. I daresay that FAR more players are interested in end-game PvE raids, than are interested in PvMP of any sort.

Turbine would be better served to drop PvMP entirely, & funnel all of those development resources into making this the best PvE game available.

Originally Posted by Livejazz

Turbine would be better served to drop PvMP entirely, & funnel all of those development resources into making this the best PvE game available.

May be it would really be better if Turbine would finally admit that they dont want/dont have resources to support PvMP, stop lying about new map, balance and so on. Just honestly said to all people who PvMP that no new addtions would be maid to the Moors.

Than we can all go and order gw2.

Originally Posted by Chupakabara

May be it would really be better if Turbine would finally admit that they dont want/dont have resources to support PvMP, stop lying about new map, balance and so on. Just honestly said to all people who PvMP that no new addtions would be made to the Moors.

Than we can all go and order gw2.

For some values of "we all."

Originally Posted by Livejazz

Turbine would be better served to drop PvMP entirely, & funnel all of those development resources into making this the best PvE game available.

What the Minority PVMPers and Majority QQers do not seem to get PVP was an after thought always has been always will be.
The lore barely supports allowing it in the fasion it exists only one mention of the Moors in the LOTR books.
Creeps the bad guys are cannon fodder they are weak willed enthralled subjects of Sauron and have
no real fighting ability just mass Numbers.
This is the way it was written this is the way it is supposed to be.
It takes many creeps to defeat a single freep as it is with the lore.
If only more would realise that Turbine is doing it the way they are supposed to that they are following
the lore live with it and enjoy the moors for what it is a distraction a side game maybe the QQing could stop
or at least be less of it.

+ Rep

Originally Posted by Chupakabara

May be it would really be better if Turbine would finally admit that they dont want/dont have resources to support PvMP, stop lying about new map, balance and so on. Just honestly said to all people who PvMP that no new addtions would be maid to the Moors.

Than we can all go and order gw2.

I actually agree with you on this point.

Originally Posted by Untg99

PvP is dead mate.

Yup, it is dead. People who think anything can be done with it after RoI, especially after u6, are kidding themselves. Better just leave it altogether rather than frustrate and annoy yourself by playing it.

has anyone compared a 13k flayer wargs heals when sparring a shield guard or blue warden or mini?? my warg keeps fully healed against them..what about a WL to a shield guard wl will out heal them 10 to 1 WL defiler to a WARDEN or a guard..both has huge self heals it goes both ways. ps even my warg outheals wardens and SB guards and wardens. stop crying

The problem is that LOTRO isn't a PVP based game, and i doubt it ever will be.
Tough wardens and minstrels seem OP(FYI the diffrence tough is wardens can live, but killing is another story) they aren't when doing any kind of PVE especially not the warden.

The issue is PVP is being bogged down by PVE, so nerfing skills on said classes could make them very weak in PVE....
Tough enhancing creeps might be a solution you would be looking at "certain" creep classes being overpowered, meaning that in the end you will have 1-2 creep classes vs 1-2 freep classes.....

I doubt this will ever be fixed, this is an issue you have when you have opposite factions fighting each other, instead of mini's vs mini's etc....
Every update i hear what i call now "gossip" about a PVMP revamp, iv'e heared it with U5, 6 and 7 tough i must say turbine did a nice job on weaver and wargs....tough wargs still feel somewhat underpowered 1v1 this was mencioned that they be strong in packs, which they suprisingly are.

MT

Originally Posted by NickStern

What the Minority PVMPers and Majority QQers do not seem to get PVP was an after thought always has been always will be. ...

Irrelevant. This often repeated "afterthought" argument does not hold water five years into the game. Fact is that it has been in the game since the beginning. Fact is also that it is an activity Turbine charges money for.
And also the only "dynamic content" as Turbine does not provide anything else in PvE that is not the same every time you do it (except... dundundun... random skirmish Lieutenants^^)

Originally Posted by NickStern

What the Minority PVMPers and Majority QQers do not seem to get PVP was an after thought always has been always will be.
The lore barely supports allowing it in the fasion it exists only one mention of the Moors in the LOTR books.
Creeps the bad guys are cannon fodder they are weak willed enthralled subjects os Sauron and have
no real fighting ability just mass Numbers.
This is the way it was written this is the way it is supposed to be.
It takes many creeps to defeat a single freep as it is with the lore.
If only more would realise that Turbine is doing it the way they are supposed to that they are following
the lore live with it and enjoy the moors for what it is a distraction a side game maybe the QQing could stop
or at least be less of it.

+ Rep

What you, a fairly minimal number of other posters and Turbine "don't seem to get" is that this is about discrimination between customers, and contrary to your argument, not about sticking to the 'lore' as if it were the holy bible.


LOTRO is designed to support different gameplay styles. The developers included all the standard classes you could expect from an EQ-style MMO, plus dungeons, plus multiple questing options, and a tiny sprinkle of innovation as well. And at some point they decided to add a PvP map, supposedly targeting PvPers and not lore junkies but that's another topic.

Despite of the latter point, in theory there is nothing wrong with Turbine's mindset to make the Moors the one area in the game that doesn't break the lore on numerous occasions (i.e. pretty much an exception.) But, as a consumer facing company, Turbine should have been able to implement this approach while avoiding such a huge impact on a sizable portion of their player base.

Not only have they not done that but they're also making it worse with every passing update, which is why I ended up quitting. What I'm getting at is that if you're going to make a PvP map to attract PvPers, you might as well do it right and not do the exact opposite of what a functional business should do, which is forgetting the fact you're dealing with individual customers. A freep easily taking on hoards of Sauron/Saruman's minions would be just fine by me, but only if Turbine could make the game enjoyable for both factions at the same time.

I agree that lore-wise it would take a great amount of orcs to kill the free people.....they alwayes had the numbers.
Tough this is diffrent with Uruks.....uruks would be the downfall of men.....and remember, spiders and wargs wouldn't be incluided in those numbers either.

MT

Originally Posted by NickStern

What the Minority PVMPers and Majority QQers do not seem to get PVP was an after thought always has been always will be.
The lore barely supports allowing it in the fasion it exists only one mention of the Moors in the LOTR books.
Creeps the bad guys are cannon fodder they are weak willed enthralled subjects of Sauron and have
no real fighting ability just mass Numbers.
This is the way it was written this is the way it is supposed to be.
It takes many creeps to defeat a single freep as it is with the lore.
If only more would realise that Turbine is doing it the way they are supposed to that they are following
the lore live with it and enjoy the moors for what it is a distraction a side game maybe the QQing could stop
or at least be less of it.

+ Rep

Play a creep and see if you feel the same way. If Turbine wanted to stick with lore in the Moors and, as you said, have the creeps an outnumbered mass, then they would have given you 5 creeps at once to play instead of one. They would effectively make every creep a multiboxer without all the effort of setting up the equipment. Would you be happier if creeps controlled 5 toons at once while you use one freep?

It seems you are jaded against the moors. Perhaps you went there and something happened to you?

If creeps are that bad howcome a rank 5 warg can get 10k morale and beat a rank 7 hunter who has only 7k morale. Creeps are stronger than all those "creeps" make out.

Originally Posted by Lobengulu

If creeps are that bad howcome a rank 5 warg can get 10k morale and beat a rank 7 hunter who has only 7k morale. Creeps are stronger than all those "creeps" make out.

Hunters are the only one I, as a r6 warg, can beat 1v1 and only if I ambush. Burgs, minis, champs, wardens, guards, rk, lms - no chanse at all if they can play.

In pew pew situations (90 proc of moors gameplay) you can burn through my HPs in 2-3 sec.

And what can you tell me about r5 reavers or r5 spiders? They are more balanced right?

PVMP Balance....whats that??? Never heard of it or seen it before.

Minis and Wardens are op, either they need to be nerfed or balanced out.

Minstrel: Deal out insane damage while healing themselves to full health. Flop when health his low. Wait for help to arrive. Repeat. The healing with good damage is ridiculous. It is like a RK, except he has no attunement to restrict his powers.

Warden: Can solo keeps. When well played wardens that have the relic they are nigh invincible.

Wargs....hahahaha! Some of you are complaining about wargs? You wanna know why there are so many freaking wargs? Because every other class gets destroyed/zerged on sight. I had a BA before my warg, and he could get nothing done (PvE or scouting the map) as he would get smashed almost as soon as he left Grams. Playing a warg means you can PvE (which we have to do since of the ridiculous comms prices.) as well as travel the map without being zerged/ganked/utterly destroyed. I will agree that they are OP, but untill Turbine balances things out (ie Warden and Mini), I say we deserve an OP class.

Lol and since when are WL's op?

Originally Posted by Lobengulu

If creeps are that bad howcome a rank 5 warg can get 10k morale and beat a rank 7 hunter who has only 7k morale. Creeps are stronger than all those "creeps" make out.

You must not be playing your hunter correctly. Plus hunters are the weakest class in Ettenmoors. You 1v1 a BA and see who wins. I bet it will be you. If not then you arent playing your hunter the right way.

PvMP threads are always so much fun. I hate the whole concept of balance, it's so subjective. Everyone knows that if you are defeated it is because the other side needs nerfing, and if you win it is because of skill.

Face it, this is not a PvP game! It will never be as good as all the other MMOs out there that focus on PvP and who are willing to damage PvE in order to keep PvPers happy. This is not the place for hardcore PvPers, it's for casual PvP for people who don't take it so seriously and who don't rage all the time.

Originally Posted by Lohi

PvMP threads are always so much fun. I hate the whole concept of balance, it's so subjective. Everyone knows that if you are defeated it is because the other side needs nerfing, and if you win it is because of skill.

Face it, this is not a PvP game! It will never be as good as all the other MMOs out there that focus on PvP and who are willing to damage PvE in order to keep PvPers happy. This is not the place for hardcore PvPers, it's for casual PvP for people who don't take it so seriously and who don't rage all the time.

If you hate the concept of balance and dont PvP (or dont care about it, its the same) why do you even reply or read this thread? FFS you cant even read the OP...

This thread was made only to get reply from Sapience or any other Turbine representative. I pay my money to them not you.

Originally Posted by Chupakabara

This thread was made only to get reply from Sapience or any other Turbine representative. I pay my money to them not you.

Hate to break it to you, but if you want get a reply from Sapience, starting a public thread is NOT the way to do it. Send a private mesage...and then wait. He gets a LOT of PMs and it'll take a while for him to respond.

Now if you're doing the "open letter" bit...then fine. But don't expect a response from anyone other than fellow gamers.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by whheydt

Hate to break it to you, but if you want get a reply from Sapience, starting a public thread is NOT the way to do it. Send a private mesage...and then wait.

Correct, and a lot of these "to the devs" or "to Sapience" or similar threads won't get a response at all. If they did, pretty soon every other thread on the forums would have similar titles, requesting a "dev response" to their particular question.

Khafar

Some balance would not be hard to do, did the new audacity gear was hard to put it inactivated in PVE world and activated in PVMP world? the only thing they would need to do is taking freep class and put a debuff working the same way than the audacity works. Example: any minstrels going to the moors would get a debuff getting on when they map or swift travel there, and for the minstrels, debuff of the moors should be something like: In warspeech stance, the minstrels will only be able to heals ally and those heals would be penalised with -50% outgoing healing and +50%power cost. That way, those OP minstrels able to solo npc in pve land than even the tank class would not be able to kill will continue to be able to solo more than the tank class is able to.