Thread: What does it take to be a GREAT Kinship leader?

I have a few characters in LOTRO, and one of them is currently kinship-less (and no, I am not posting this to advertise my need to join a kinship as I've already asked someone and am waiting for a response.) While going through the Kinship forums, reading the current bylaws and requirements for Kinship maintenance and what-not, I've been toying with the idea of starting one of my own.

However, I don't want to do that unless I know what the heck I'd be getting myself into. So, here is my question open to ALL kinship leaders:

What does it take to be a GREAT Kinship leader?

If I may add to that, what makes a Kinship leader the kind you want to follow in LOTRO? What kind of interaction, ethics or traits should one have as a leader? True, not everyone is a born leader, many are content to follow. But if I decide to open a Kinship, I want to be a good one.

Now, I will say that LOTRO is my first true MMORPG ever. I started in November last year, so I still have quite a ways to grow. I don't expect to start a kinship until I've experienced much more in the game than I have so far. I haven't even started my first raid yet! But I'm a patient guy. I'm willing to wait till the time is right. Still, the question is worth asking.

What does it take to be a GREAT Kinship leader?

Disclaimer note: Please forgive if this topic is outside the bounds of this Kinship forum page. If so, please delete or move to the appropriate forum page as you see fit. Thank you.

I have only been an officer so far, not a leader, but in my experience from several years of MMOs I have seen great and not-so-great leadership. Some of the things that strike me as very important include:

Level of activity: a great leader actually needs to play the game. You should at least try to be around during times of peak activity for your particular group, whether that is several times a week or once or twice a month.

Vision: A great leader knows what direction he/she wants the group to take. Will the group do raiding? Roleplay? Parties? Crafting? To what extent do you want knowledgeable endgame players that can jump right into hard group content, or are you looking to help new players along their journey? What kind of interaction will your kin have--casual game chat vs making strong and lasting friendships, frequent or infrequent social events, etc.? You wouldn't want a rigid plan that you impose on everyone, but you should have a clear idea of your purpose so you can recruit people who you will enjoy playing with.

An outgoing personality: I was once in a kin where the leader would assist when asked but would rarely organize something himself, and whose obvious preference was to be left alone to solo. Nice guy, and there is nothing at all wrong with playing the game that way, but that doesn't create the kind of interactive group atmosphere that leads to a strong kin. The leader sets the highest example for the members, so if you want an active social environment, you have to be actively social yourself. A leader should not have to do all the work, but there is indeed work involved in running a kin, and the leader needs to like doing it.

A balance between strength and flexibility: A kinship needs basic rules of how members are expected to treat one another, and a general sense of purpose. But nobody comes here to work, we come to play, and every rule you make should make the game more fun for the members. Pick officers and members that share your idea of what makes the game fun, don't get caught up in the 'status' of being a leader, and let your friends share in the decision making. But at the same time, don't be afraid to take action when you have a problem to solve or need to remove a disruptive member.

Knowing your limits: If you don't have loads of free time and energy, keep your size and vision simple. Delegate to your officers. Make sure that whatever you are doing is fun for you, or the kin will be fun for nobody.

In short, love the game, care about the people you play with, and always treat others as you wish to be treated. Good luck!

Thank you so much Whart. You obviously have given this a lot of thought. I'm surprised you're not a leader of your own kinship.

I'd be curious to know if there's anyone else that can add to what she posted towards what it takes to be a great kinship leader. Though, I'm sure it wouldn't be much. All the bases appear to have been covered (unless she missed one or two). Maybe a better question would be, what should you expect from a kinship leader? With the characters I have in LOTRO, some have reached out to me to see if I needed anything, and others have been quiet, except for the when they first asked if I wanted to join.

I agree with alot with what Whart has posted already, so I might repeat some of it in my post below...but its only cause I agree!

I recently inherited my kinship and took over the leadership position. However, before that I was considered "co-leader" of the kinship, and therefore basically knew what I was getting into.

With that said...

I feel leaders should have the following (just my opinion now) skills. (And I base my promotion of officers on this as well, since they are like mini leaders.)

Experience: I am not saying you have to be all knowing about every little aspect of the game. But, a little understanding about gameplay, classes, and quests would be helpful. If I were to recruit a new player to our kinship, I am sure they will have many different questions about different things. I feel if they ask a question, and keep getting the "I don't know" answer over and over, they may not stick around. As I have been playing the game close to 5 years now, I generally know the answer to the questions that are being asked. Most of my officers do as well, but I do have some newer players as officers. I feel that members are generally more happy when they can get a quick and clear answer, rather than spending hours trying to figure something out or finding the answer. If I don't know the answer (which is rare), I do have several means of finding the answer, whether it's from reading or asking my other out of kin friends.

Commitment: I have been in kinships before where the leader rarely logged on. For me, personally, I found it slightly annoying that they would want to have their own kinship, but not want to make an appearance at least once every few weeks. I can understand job and/or family requirements, but when a leader only logs on once a month, just missing that Ursup chance, it's annoying. IMO, I feel they don't understand what is going on in the kinship, or who is who or whatnot. Not saying you have to sign in everyday, but once a week would be nice.

I'm the type of leader that likes to get everyone involved. Whether its through an instance or simply talking in kinship chat. I had one member tell me that in all the kins/guilds he has been in, never had he met a leader who made him talk so much or feel so welcomed. Hearing things like that makes me happy. ^.^

A few other things I do is...set aside a separate night of the week for a kin night. On those nights (as of right now, on Saturdays each week) we help other players through harder quests, instances, or skirmishs. Our members know that they can get helped for sure on those days if we are unavailable on other days to help them (whether its because we are stuck in our own instance, not online, or lost in la-la land.)

However, just because I am the leader of my kinship, doesn't mean I am the only one that is right and I rule all. I rely heavily on my officers. I consider us all equals when it comes to running the kinship, I just get the snazzy little crown in the social panel. The only thing they make sure to run by me is if its okay to boot someone from the kinship because of problems X, Y, or Z. (Not that we ever have many, but they know its prefered to ask me first.) And generally, I would agree with them. I do not promote people to officer just because I made a new buddy in them or whatever. We normally vote on it. (But I will never promote someone who says "make me an officer!" or "I wanna be an officer" or anything along those lines...seems like its trouble waiting to happen, imo.)

I have run into some poor leaders in my nearly 5 years here. I take note of what I (or those other members) disliked, and I try to not be like that. I suppose I may not be a great leader (you'd have to question my kin members that) but I am not a horrible one. I don't have members massively leaving my kinship, so I take that as a good sign. ^.^

My husband and I have shared the leadership role for our kinship over the past 3, almost 4 years and throughout that time we have learned a lot. We started our own kinship because at the time we could not find one that was suitable for us to be ourselves in. We also had no idea what it meant to be a kinship leader, we were kind of just rolling with it; we invited people to the kin, we did promotions, demotions, expelled people, invited more people and had fun with it, I cannot say that we have not had our downfalls as a kin or as being kinship leaders, but every kin will experience its highs and its lows. I think that we have succeeded as a kinship because we have found people of like-minds to share this game with, we have not taken on something that we could not handle, my husband and I both have careers, a dog who is our child (possibly another one on its way) and lives outside of lotro and our kinship knows that. We have made it clear to everyone that we are casual and that we do not hold anyone accountable to be online at any given time... that being said, when we are not online our officers know they also have a responsibility, that is why they are officers. To be a good or even a great leader you cannot expect to do it all, you cannot expect to have the responsibility of the entire kin, you are there to uphold your values as a leader and motivate your kinship. You, as the kinship leader, have the choice to decide what direction you want your kinship to go and if you have done what we have, then the people in your kinship will also be willing to go in that direction. If you are a casual kinship recruiting raiding players, you will no doubt have issues with people leaving your kinship saying oh you dont raid enough... that is a given... if you want to be an endgame raiding kinship, then be that and that is who you will recruit, if you want to be a casual kinship that raids, be that too, you are the leader so you can decide and no matter what your decision you are the one that has to withhold those values and enforce them. If you want more people in your kin or if you want more role-playing activities, you know what to do, enforce those values yourself or get your officers to do it, never hold the weight of a kinship on your shoulders alone, you have to find people to share the weight with. I may be speaking very figuratively here but it is what my husband and I have done with our kinship and it has worked thus far, we have players with us still that have been in our kinship since it began and that really means something, we have also had players with us for a long time but then decided being casual was to casual for them and they went elsewhere, yah it sucks when that happens, but it is part of being a kinship leader you have to let people go and do what they want. I hope my insight has given you some food for thought on what you want to do with your kinship and whatever you decide to do I hope it works out for you.

Here's my advice, coming from one who started Lotro as a MMO newb in 2008, and has gone from green, to officership, to co-leader of a large kin (unfortunately due to the passing of our Great Leader's husband, who was also a Great Leader). I'd like to add my thoughts on what defines or creates a Great Kin Leader:

Perhaps first and foremost in my opinion is getting to know your members, which includes extending greetings when folks log in, saying farewell if you know they're heading out, trying to spend some time assisting them either with advice or with questing or deeding, and encouraging them to be a part of the kin through those efforts. Facilitating kin events or competitions help to build that group morale, and make members truly feel part of the kin.

Always lead by example... if you wish the kin to be helpful to each other, be sure to offer your own help, with crafting/quests/deeds, etc etc. Engage people in kinchat if you wish it to be 'chatty'. Lead groups if you wish it to grow in group dynamics for raiding. Have a microphone/headset if you wish it to be more efficient in groups, or just more friendly considering that people can actually hear you laugh or lead, rather than just texting.

Take initiative in learning new content, and draw others into it with you. Share findings such as rare housing trophy drops and be sure to take members along to get said trophies for others. Share and assist people in getting rare horses such as metadeed horses and goats.

Create, Maintain, and Reinforce your visions and the atmosphere you want in the kin. Be clear about what your expectations are, what your rules are, what is encouraged and discouraged. You can't be afraid to speak to those who don't abide or who test your limits. This doesn't mean rule with an iron fist, but rather be courteous enough to give folks another chance with good direction on what they're doing that is not good for the kin, then uphold your decision to expell if they can't comply, which is necessary at times.

Be flexible in your ideas, listen to ideas from others, incorporate them or ask those individuals to take action on ideas such as lotteries, competitions, etc. Doing so lets folks build their own leadership skills and feel a valued part of the group. Besides, you as leader can't possibly do it all! This leads then into finding officers who meet your vision, are helpful, and are capable of managing things when you're not around. Find their strengths and interests and let them take charge of something, whether it's raid leading, PVP leading, managing the kinhouse chests, recruitment, fishing groups, or some particular craft, etc. This also leads toward a leader giving public credit where credit is due.

Some pre-planning should always be in action so that you can announce upcoming events, perhaps on a website with a calendar of events, or just simply advertising in kinchat regularly. Use the message of the day and change it regularly so it's not stagnant. A website helps with those massive events that you can't possibly describe daily in kinchat, such as team competitions, scavenger events, or a week of Olympic events... plus it allows you to post screenshots of the events, track results, announce winners, and helps that strong kin atmosphere you may be seeking. Folks interested in joining your kin may wish to see what activities and what sort of people make up your kin. Websites also allow you to document your kin 'rules', and to provide many other things to help or bind the kin, both game related and personal.

Lastly, be sure you realize that all of this IS time consuming and takes effort. You get back what you put in, so good luck to any or all who create a kin that they wish to last and thrive

Love the responses above, very well thought out.

Patience and Tolerance with...

people that rub you the wrong way
schedules, cause some folks cant always make it on time
those of us who take the game to seriously

Looking for the best in people...

expecting the best and therefore seeing it
when some newb just has to open the dragon box while you are still going over the plan of attack, again.

Our kinship leader is all of those things and more. She would be mortified if she knew i was posting this, too modest. For me its quite simple, hang out with a kin for a couple of weeks and if you respect the leader, you have hit gold.

Be friendly and respectful to everyone.

Encourage a sense of "group good" and a fun atmosphere.

Resolve any disputes that arise with a minimum of drama.

Be understanding, encouraging and friendly when a member tells you they need to leave because another kinship better fulfills their personal needs.

And, most importantly, be able to run a little bit faster than the kinship members who are chasing you with tar and feathers.

Originally Posted by bigsix66

And, most importantly, be able to run a little bit faster than the kinship members who are chasing you with tar and feathers.

This.. Although sometimes it's pie they want to throw at me!

I can't really think of anything I would like to add from my own experience.. I think most qualities have been explained here.
If anyone is thinking about starting a kin for their own or take over leadership of your current kin I would really suggest to keep all these things in mind.. If for yourself you can put a check with all these qualities I'd say go for it..
If you do it right it can be a really thankful and great experience!

Oh maybe there is something to add which I've not seen so far.

Be open for tips/suggestions..
And don't be afraid to make mistakes as long as you learn from those that you make..

I found myself nodding along with many of the really fantastic points made by the other posters.

I do have one cautionary note to add. The kinleader sets the tone of the kin, but s/he can't do it alone. That means who you pick as officers to share the responsibility. Judgement and communication, yours and theirs, is so very important. Particularly in situations where two (or more) members are in a conflict. You need to protect the kinmembers, and communicate as fully as you can what is happening with the decisions that are made.

This is even more important, imo, when you realize that the mix of members in a kin may be from relatively young to just shy of "you kids get off my lawn".

We recently had an incident in kin where a member reported being stalked, and when I investigated, the stalker was getting friends to join the kin to get around the fact she had him on ignore. When I bounced the friend, it was a temporary thing till I could make sure all was above board, and then the stalker started threatening that he would be back in the kin to disrupt. We had to temporarily suspend recruitment, and start requiring an application process.

I had to trust my judgement, and act precipitously to protect the kin when the threat was made-even though he may just have been trashtalking me. In doing so, I had to be willing to be UTTERLY, COMPLETELY WRONG about what was going on. Subsequent events proved I was not, but I let people know why I was doing what I was doing, and my awesome kinnies trusted me. Could have lead to a mass exodus from folks who don't want to spend all their time in game dealing with someone else's drama. Instead, I think it lead to a more cohesive kin, where we've set a tone that we look out for each other as well as quest together.

So, be willing to make mistakes, and own up to them. And keep in mind you do have some things you can do to help protect the occasionally quite young folks in your kin (and the oldsters too, but we're expected to have a little more experience. )

Last night my wife and I were in Imladris. I was crafting with my character while she was questing with hers. She suddenly remembered that she had received an invitation from her kinship leader to join a party at their kinship house at 7 PM, and for everyone to meet at the Bree south gate. I was intrigued by this as I watched my wife's kinship perform a march through Bree twice, then a run to the kinship house where high level characters put on a costume contest.

The leader was in charge of everything, giving awesome and level appropriate gifts to those that came to the house, and to the winners of the costume contest. The leader personally handed out wine to all the guests, and all the girl characters sat together in the house pool (looked like a LOTRO hot-tub) while a boy Hobbit tried to impress the ladies, flexing Hobbit muscles.

Next, they spent an hour enjoying a game of hide and seek, where whoever found the kinship leader won a special prize. This was done all within the homestead area, so no threat of enemies would occur. I was so impressed with this, that I couldn't help but feel a tad jealous. My wife had a blast within the kinship, even though her character was at level 17, and everyone else was above 60. After a couple of hours of drinking and games, it was all over by 9 PM.

Though I took this time to catch up on my crafting, I couldn't help but glance over at my wife's laptop screen, seeing all the fun happening, making me feel the kinship I was a part of was rather dormant and dull. This made me really appreciate the work a leader does for his/her kinship, and set an example for me to take note of, along with all the other awesome advice everyone was very kind to add here on this thread.

Obviously, the leader took the time to organize in advance and prepare activities and something special for the kinship to enjoy. Even though only 9 or so people showed up at the event, the leader made the best of it, and was nothing but courteous, gracious, and a very good host. I needed to see that.

If and when I level up enough and start a kinship, I'd like to do things like that. Which makes me now wonder: what other kind of activities does a leader do for the kinship that would help make things fun or change things up a bit in the game?

That party sounds absolutely awesome, and one of the keys to a happy kin, I think, is to have events like that that can be done with all levels and classes being able to participate on an even foundation, so to speak.

For that, I highly recommend the freeze tag game. Our kinnies still mention our freeze tag event every onece in a while.

Also, I emphasize random prizes for just participating in the event wherever practical. For example, during our freezetag event, I gave out prizes at random times in the hour long event, and anyone in the game at that point was eligible to win. I used an external random number generator, and had folks who wanted to win send me a number within a range.

Answers will obviously be varied based on what types of kins people enjoy... that being said, here is my response. (hope you have some time ) Many points are debatable... again, its very subjective and allows for more discussion than even I have provided.

You have to care to not care. Great leaders aren't micro-managers. If everyone has to see things your way, you are setting up for a constant struggle.

Can a warden tank? Can a mini DPS? Can an LM AOE? What is the best necklace for a burg? Creeps or Freeps? Solo vs. Raid? Store vs. F2P?...

If you have a buy-in on any in game topic, there will be problems. You have to be able to let people play the way they want to play. If it bothers you that a mini is stacking vitality, you are better off as a peer. People don't need someone to tell them right and wrong in a virtual environment. When you stand up to correct someone it needs to be over something pretty significant. If you always feel the need to tell someone they are doing it wrong... it won't matter to them when they actually ARE doing something significantly wrong.

I'm not saying don't have opinions... I'm saying you need to fully understand that they are just that... your opinions. The only time black and white correction needs to occur is when someone clearly violates a policy set in place.

I see a lot of micro-managers in this game. Too many people buy into the droning of GLFF and the forums here as well. Ignore all the "best class" and "perfect traits" and "quickest path" threads and just be happy to have the time to spend with people who will see things differently than yourself.



You need to care a lot. You need to drink the cool-aid. YOUR kin needs to be the best darn kin in the game. If you don't care about your members or their enjoyment of the game, why should they be in your kin? Too many people try and offer up "prizes" for their kins. "we have a kin house!". "we are rank 10". "we have vent". What are 3 phrases that don't mean ANYTHING? Offering raids, or parties, or end game loot, or crafters, quest/leveling help, or any physical, tangible thing is simply selling your kin to a customer. What happens when the customer isn't happy with their purchase? As soon as the raiding slows, as soon as the "help" isn't available, or as soon as the crafters stop giving... people will go somewhere else. Turnover is a horrible thing to happen to a kin. People need to find something intangible in your kin that doesn't exist anywhere else. They need to feel at home.

You need a zero tolerance policy.

Some things aren't so simple. Some things really are simple. The problem with rules is that we have become experts at bending them. Our legal system is a monument to erasing and re-drawing grey lines. What if you have a rule that says "if you sign up for a run, you must attend"? That is a good rule. Its rude to have your kinnies waiting around when you promised you would participate. But, what if you were in a wreck? What if a loved one died? Do you really need people judging you for missing virtual time in a game? Don't make rules that you can't enforce on everyone. If there is a good reason someone might miss a run, then always assume people have good reasons when they miss a run. However, some things do require rules. What if someone steals from the kin? Is there EVER a good reason for someone to steal in a game? Don't make black and white issues grey ones when they were already black and white. When someone does something that violates the core of who you are, boot them. Set the example. Let your kinnies know that you are protecting them without ruling over them. Someone wants to do an all guard moors raid? fine, let them. and wish them well. Someone wants to take advantage of your kin family? Boot them so your real family can enjoy the game. Don't take booting lightly, but don't let aversion to boot, give your kinnies the impression that they aren't safe in your environment... remember, a family environment is the only unique thing you can really offer. People should know they are getting booted before they get booted. If you structure the rules properly, there should never be any doubt when someone violates one. And, IMHO, the rules should not be set in such a way to dictate play time or actions... they should only serve to protect the quality of the kin. When the quality isn't being questioned... everyone should be happy and NOT looking at a rule book. When the quality is questioned... zero tolerance. And they should have seen it coming if you communicate your rules before hand.

Have an identity.

Know who you are and what you want to be. When someone decides that your raiding kin needs a fishing tournament... be able to say, "no thanks!". Or even better, "that sounds like a great idea, let me know how it goes!" I've seen a lot of kins that set the rules first and then define their kin from those. I think that is putting the cart before the horse. If you define yourself first, the rules make sense and are easily followed without really even knowing what they are. Why should someone join your kin when they could just join another one? What are you seeing in other kins that makes you want to start your own? Is this just another, "me too"... or do you really have a unique vision? Hopefully, its the latter, and you will always keep it at the forefront so your rules and members that choose you over other kins all make sense and jell together.

Don't appoint officers because they are great people.

Everyone in your kin should be great people. Seeing someone stand out and promoting is an insult to everyone else in the kin. Its the quickest way to create a clique. Identify a NEED, first. Then pick a person that fills that need. If you don't have a need, don't accept any new officers. Make sure the officers are also drinking the cool-aid. If they don't love the kin and the game, bad times are ahead. They can be honest and gripe about something here and there... but if they always hate the game or the devs or raids or crafting... keep an eye out for more positive folks.

Don't separate cliques.

Again... the kin is the people in it. Be creative in getting cliques to spread out. If you put your foot down on friends and family that group up... they will find another home. Instead, find a way to encourage the clique to thin. Get more people rotating in through different events. Even if they are inseparable... who cares? If they fit your mission statement, what harm is happening? I don't promote cliques, but I've never seen someone successfully step in and put a stop to it. If people enjoy logging into your kin and grouping with specific people, don't immediately assume its a terrible thing. Only get involved if the core mission statement and kin identity is at stake. Back to the rules... you can't set a rule that says don't group often with the same people. How often is often? what if no one else is on? If you can't enforce it, don't set it. If you can't apply it equally to every member of the kin, its not a good rule. If its not a rule, enjoy it.

Like it or not people will see you as the big guy/gal in charge.

Try to be available on a regular basis, but knowingly and intentionally protect yourself from burnout. No one wants to see you absent for a month. If you have to be, you have to be. But don't stress over being on line. You aren't micromanaging, so remember to care to not care. take breaks so later on down the road you can log in when it matters. Trust that you have set a structure that is easily congruent with your mission and that people will feel at home regardless of if you are on or not. When you log on, people should be excited, not surprised .

Officers need a form of accountability.

I'm strongly against officer hierarchy, but I understand it works in some kins. Don't be afraid to be the boss... its your kin, its your vision. On the other hand, do what you can to make it their kin and vision too. You should only need to guide on occasion. Avoid he-said/she-said scenarios and get everyone involved when issues happen. Do what you can to be blunt. If someone messed up... tell them they messed up. we can't correct mistakes that we don't realize we make.

something else I wanted to add after reading some of the other posts, in response to the people that mentioned things that kin leaders do to keep the kin active and participating in events is I have always done a scavenger hunt for my kin, used to be a lot more often, but I always had a lot of success with it, I have done several different types of scavenger hunts, ie. find me so many of this item in this area, etc. to craft me this and whoever can make the better set wins the hunt (all materials must be gathered not bought or from storage) that one was a fun one! we have also done kinship sparring events, we have a large sundial at our kin house and we used it as an arena to spar each other, that was a lot of fun. Our next event is going to be a twin contest - its the small things like this that people enjoy and can feel apart of the kin no matter what level they are. a lot of people have made some really good points here and its nice to read them and even take something myself from it. Thanks!