Thread: PVMP - hunters vs. high ranked creeps

Originally Posted by VincentVanPort

You missed Sanlies point. It is spars, duels. Setup fights if you want to say so. Balanced by themselves to give everyone the same advantage or disadvantage. Basically doing what Turbine is not able to do.

Its no point whatsoever. If this is supposed to be some proof of how to balance, it's doing if nothing else the opposite. Those "duels" showed nothing but if the creeps don't use their skills, the hunter can win. Its why duels are never a judge of balance because there are always silly rules to put one side at an advantage over another.

The truth of the matter is had there been no rules, that hunter baring some massive luck dev, would've lost every one of those fights quickly.

Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

Its no point whatsoever. If this is supposed to be some proof of how to balance, it's doing if nothing else the opposite. Those "duels" showed nothing but if the creeps don't use their skills, the hunter can win. Its why duels are never a judge of balance because there are always silly rules to put one side at an advantage over another.

The truth of the matter is had there been no rules, that hunter baring some massive luck dev, would've lost every one of those fights quickly.

Yep. This^


Also, basing arguments or the finer points of a class on one of the top 2% of skilled players of that class, does not lend itself to being fully truthful.

Originally Posted by Gorgilh

Since few days ago Im thinking about farm the red set.... already 4 pieces, with it hey we just start using BH with the set, switch to fletness one, use fletness, leave camuflage and... pew pew pew pew, Your mightly blow... This is not a 1vs1 for sure.

But I do think as I said hunter have chances against every creep, of course a high ranked BA at 20m range if he catchs you first has de adventage, Uruk heal, vital, hindering, MT... skills that you will hate, but.. Do we have fear for something? just use it, you've enough time to use press onward there if he doesn't pot it, or just BH... BA's are not always with MT up, same as we are not always with Press onward or Burn Hot, And I don't see the fair point there, we cant' expect to be a ble to kill every creep 1vs1, I still think we are not here to kill every class 1vs1 but we have 40m and other tihngs that other freeps would love, I don't know your case but laurelin is not one of the best pvp servers about ranking, there are few high rankeds, only mornaro r15, bertromir nearly r 14 cappy, and all the others at r12 like me, but the days I go for renown I can do 10k easy, hunters have 40m, high burst...enough to earn lot of renown, OK, I agree with you we're not best class for solo, we can win every creep but we have problems with every creep if the fight turns bad with crtics, that's right... but where is the pro blem? creeps still need some of love in groups, only creep this is imposible for us is a good spider, I think so.
Wargs in flayer...? They're extremly hard but we can, at least I beaten some of them 1vs1, other times I lost, this is hunter life, sometimes you win, sometimes you loose, never a sure win ( of course against greens this is.) but never a sure loose, I love it , that's fun.


Whizzy tell me something, what's your equip at moors? About what we're talking your fights seems to last longer, maybe this is your rotation, your gear, or just bad luck.
I go with 7.535 morale, sometimes 7.845 If Im using the morale buff, and I do this often, and 30.790 Physycal mastery with this build, can go with less morale and more dps but I don't find that effective, in 1vs1 you need a bit of morale, 7.500 is a good number imo. this is unbuffed, I can up the screen if you want, bit less than 9k critic not sure right now but about 8.890 ( with the trait which gives us critic, of course) , auda 2 with leggings of audacity, and first age with 3 crystals, THIS for pvp, pve is another history, I go with more critic & PM to pve but a lot of lesser morale

Your a good player Caz but you also have very good gear, most Hunters cannot get access to that gear, and I dont think a class should be balanced on the best geared players - let them have an advantage, along with the best individual players.

My gear has always been raid quality but not the very top end, I have never claimed to be a great 1 v 1 player, just skilled and experienced in the moors, but I could solo wargs before U6, but it is pointless for me to try now, even a greenring warg has a good chance to beat me 1 v 1 if they pounce from stealth.

Originally Posted by ConnallofLaurelin

Your a good player Caz but you also have very good gear, most Hunters cannot get access to that gear, and I dont think a class should be balanced on the best geared players - let them have an advantage, along with the best individual players.

My gear has always been raid quality but not the very top end, I have never claimed to be a great 1 v 1 player, just skilled and experienced in the moors, but I could solo wargs before U6, but it is pointless for me to try now, even a greenring warg has a good chance to beat me 1 v 1 if they pounce from stealth.

I am glad to see you raiding freeps in laurelin again, at least last 2 days, this is good! let's help laurelin a bit, our server is dying if there aren't raid leaders like you that give wipes and wipe creeps as well, cheers your way to play is more fun than other who just Zerg, I like you for that Connall.

I agree Im also very well euiped, but not at all, too bad equip yourself is much easier than before...I remember old hard times to equip, now everyone can go with for example... 28k offense, 7k morale, without much gears, and that's enough to win!
Otherwise I buy your points, they should look the hunter's average, my only point here is that WE have chances against everything, but we can LOOSE or WIN any fight, and I like it! but yes, some melee skill more or just working diferent, or a cc INmunity would be nice, I agree

cheers connall, hope to see you around more often!

I think from this thread it's fairly obvious that the general opinion and view is that a top tier geared hunter, with good skill has a good chance at being successful, but for the average person playing a hunter you are going to struggle.

So yeah, I'll agree with whoever said that a hunter should not have to blow all cooldowns, gear switch etc etc

You shouldn't be able to kill good players if you're an "average" hunter. It's like in Mirkwood, only good Champs could win, and bads died all day. Hunter is the same way, good hunters are competent and bads get farmed all day because they keyturn back pedal penshot focuspot penshot.

Originally Posted by Matt1234

You shouldn't be able to kill good players if you're an "average" hunter. It's like in Mirkwood, only good Champs could win, and bads died all day. Hunter is the same way, good hunters are competent and bads get farmed all day because they keyturn back pedal penshot focuspot penshot.

As a top tier geared hunter... except clasps.. no luck on dice, what do you suggest a hunter do? Please enlighten me. I am no slouch when it comes to pvp, nowhere near the best but I know the strats that should give me a chance to win. Everything boils down to this... unless you have the top gear, blow every cool down, know how to mouse turn and get lucky crits the hunter will not win. Not against a ranked creep.

I am rank 11.. that means I shouldn't really have a problem with most creeps, but that is not the case at all. Store bought skills, brands, pots, lousy moors armor, audacity cutting 30% of our damage and our mits and armor getting shredded means death for most hunters most of the time in 1v1 situations. Sorry if you don't want to believe that, but it is the truth. I creep, hell I was the third BA on E to get to rank 5 way back in the day when they were a even bigger joke than hunters are now. I have a warg, spider, reaver, war leader all above rank 5 and a defiler that I started that is rank 4. I know the ins and outs of the classes. I should be able to win about half of my encounters, yet I cannot.

I will not say that hunters are useless... in good groups and raids they shine. Alone they are like a pie left on a windowsill in the Shire ... free goodies for the taking.

If you have a hunter that is successful more than half the time start talking... I will be taking notes. Until then you should stick with what you think you know about the class. No offense, but when I see names here that I know are even better hunters than I am scratching their heads and shrugging their shoulders on how to win, I think I am comfortable in saying hunters need help.

Tydalmir

Originally Posted by Tinluen

As a top tier geared hunter... except clasps.. no luck on dice, what do you suggest a hunter do? Please enlighten me. I am no slouch when it comes to pvp, nowhere near the best but I know the strats that should give me a chance to win. Everything boils down to this... unless you have the top gear, blow every cool down, know how to mouse turn and get lucky crits the hunter will not win. Not against a ranked creep.

I am rank 11.. that means I shouldn't really have a problem with most creeps, but that is not the case at all. Store bought skills, brands, pots, lousy moors armor, audacity cutting 30% of our damage and our mits and armor getting shredded means death for most hunters most of the time in 1v1 situations. Sorry if you don't want to believe that, but it is the truth. I creep, hell I was the third BA on E to get to rank 5 way back in the day when they were a even bigger joke than hunters are now. I have a warg, spider, reaver, war leader all above rank 5 and a defiler that I started that is rank 4. I know the ins and outs of the classes. I should be able to win about half of my encounters, yet I cannot.

I will not say that hunters are useless... in good groups and raids they shine. Alone they are like a pie left on a windowsill in the Shire ... free goodies for the taking.

If you have a hunter that is successful more than half the time start talking... I will be taking notes. Until then you should stick with what you think you know about the class. No offense, but when I see names here that I know are even better hunters than I am scratching their heads and shrugging their shoulders on how to win, I think I am comfortable in saying hunters need help.

Tydalmir

Hunter solo? You're going to die a lot. It's been that way lol. You can't expect to take on 3 creeps and walk away can you? Hunter is a high dps output squishy class. Yes, being top geared is needed for the best creeps of course. And Mits? A lot of hunter gear has tact mit, which is nice. 2 set bonus PVP gear, and necklace, plus Sarchol if you wanted. Like I said earlier, hunters agilier ajoiner heal needs to be higher, and maybe faster melee attack duration. And 45s needful haste would be sweet.. 4 reds seems best for me for traits too. I dunno, works for me. Hunter feels solid in 1v1s, but you can't escape zergs like champs can, or hips, or out-heal. Just accept it haha.

Originally Posted by ColorSpecs

Its no point whatsoever. If this is supposed to be some proof of how to balance, it's doing if nothing else the opposite. Those "duels" showed nothing but if the creeps don't use their skills, the hunter can win. Its why duels are never a judge of balance because there are always silly rules to put one side at an advantage over another.

The truth of the matter is had there been no rules, that hunter baring some massive luck dev, would've lost every one of those fights quickly.

In this game balance (1v1 or otherwise) has ALWAYS been in the hands of players. Turbine is pretty silly like that..

There does comes a point when a class, no matter who the player loses simply because of another classes own mechanics.
Saying however that there is no chance for a turnaround (human error or adeptness) is just silly.

And again, the use of specific consumables and skills that remain classified can still alleviate the potential of other classes, which may or may not end up giving the upper hand.

In setup fights, it comes down to who you are fighting, and whether they want to have good fights. In the open field it's more about who starts the fight, and how.

Originally Posted by Untg99

In this game balance (1v1 or otherwise) has ALWAYS been in the hands of players. Turbine is pretty silly like that..

There does comes a point when a class, no matter who the player loses simply because of another classes own mechanics.
Saying however that there is no chance for a turnaround (human error or adeptness) is just silly.

And again, the use of specific consumables and skills that remain classified can still alleviate the potential of other classes, which may or may not end up giving the upper hand.

In setup fights, it comes down to who you are fighting, and whether they want to have good fights. In the open field it's more about who starts the fight, and how.

I agree mostly, good point of view.

Open field this is all about who jumps first, very true

Originally Posted by Untg99

In this game balance (1v1 or otherwise) has ALWAYS been in the hands of players. Turbine is pretty silly like that..

There does comes a point when a class, no matter who the player loses simply because of another classes own mechanics.
Saying however that there is no chance for a turnaround (human error or adeptness) is just silly.

And again, the use of specific consumables and skills that remain classified can still alleviate the potential of other classes, which may or may not end up giving the upper hand.

In setup fights, it comes down to who you are fighting, and whether they want to have good fights. In the open field it's more about who starts the fight, and how.

And this is true. Wer are not arguing about open world balance here, but when things are unbalanced why not create a space with rules to make it a challenge for everybody? This is a small defined space of course and has nothing to say about the real moors, but it is nice to see that people try to make an effort. On the other hand though due to the way Turbine does things in the moors and class system wise there were some ridicuolous things going on up there in terms of balance. As I said when SoM came out reavers would practically do nothing when facing off against hunters. This is not how it is supposed to go of course either

Originally Posted by Tinluen

As a top tier geared hunter... except clasps.. no luck on dice, what do you suggest a hunter do? Please enlighten me. I am no slouch when it comes to pvp, nowhere near the best but I know the strats that should give me a chance to win. Everything boils down to this... unless you have the top gear, blow every cool down, know how to mouse turn and get lucky crits the hunter will not win. Not against a ranked creep.

I am rank 11.. that means I shouldn't really have a problem with most creeps, but that is not the case at all. Store bought skills, brands, pots, lousy moors armor, audacity cutting 30% of our damage and our mits and armor getting shredded means death for most hunters most of the time in 1v1 situations. Sorry if you don't want to believe that, but it is the truth. I creep, hell I was the third BA on E to get to rank 5 way back in the day when they were a even bigger joke than hunters are now. I have a warg, spider, reaver, war leader all above rank 5 and a defiler that I started that is rank 4. I know the ins and outs of the classes. I should be able to win about half of my encounters, yet I cannot.

I will not say that hunters are useless... in good groups and raids they shine. Alone they are like a pie left on a windowsill in the Shire ... free goodies for the taking.

If you have a hunter that is successful more than half the time start talking... I will be taking notes. Until then you should stick with what you think you know about the class. No offense, but when I see names here that I know are even better hunters than I am scratching their heads and shrugging their shoulders on how to win, I think I am comfortable in saying hunters need help.

Tydalmir

I completely agree with this post.

I too am not the best but have easily been playing long enough to know the ropes. I usually have top-end gear and have a moors build which i have spent a lot of time on. I prefer solo/small groups. I have stealth gear (inc a pre-nerf 65 1st age with +3 camo) which I awitch in and out of. I mainly fight campers and spend a lot of time in stealth. If I'd spent longer raiding/zerging my rank would be higher but thats not why I am there.

I know how to right mouse turn and also how to kite. I have my moors 1v1 rotation on macro-buttons and have pots/resolute aim etc on mouse macro clickys. I use pots/scrolls/store bought buffs & crafted traps/trip wires.

I'm prepared. Yeh i'm not great but I know my onions.

I used to win 40-50% of 1v1, mainly wargs, reevers, sometimes spiders. Now I am lucky to win 10%, often because even if I am winning they have an escape. I still hunt them from stealth, but seem to be squishier than ever. Sometimes I put up a really good fight, I try really damned hard, I kind of should of won but either the dps wasnt enough and I took damage real easy and Im dead. nothing worse when you actually v close to beating the damn creep and it hips/buries itself/evades everything and comes back at you and kills you cos you got no defence.

There is a high-rank warg on my server with store bought bonuses who loves to track me. I can never ever kill him, it feels very frustrating knowing I have no chance whatsoever.

The alternative is running around like a noob in freep zerg, pew pewing at sb or orc camp. NTY that kind of pvp sux imo.

Put me with a mincy or a burg and I can do well I survive usually. Small group I usually die but get renown and am very good at finding the campers.

I think this is going to be the situation for us always now, The devs want to limit ranged fights in pvp.