Thread: No Titles in Ortanc

I think it's a bit annoying that only the first 12 People beating Saruman CM get Titels - no Titel for all other CM - no complete Title - I think it's ab bit annoying if you couldn't be part of the raid were your Kin would kill Saruman Serverfirst and you didn't get ANY Title...

What do you think?
Before this Raid there was a Title in EVERY raidcluster for Killing anything - why not in Ortanc?

we were world first cm and didnt get a title either, so i guess there is no title.
But i agree, there should be more titles :P

I think the title is for server's first full t2c clear rather than just Saruman t2c.

Originally Posted by Melmadoc

I think it's a bit annoying that only the first 12 People beating Saruman CM get Titels

Originally Posted by sdf-blarelius

we were world first cm and didnt get a title either

Is there or is there not a Saruman T2C server first title?

Also, I think we'll have to wait till someone beats F/F T2C to confirm if there's a whole raid clear title. I doubt it would be server first only if it requires all bosses T2C.

I am sure there will be a title for completing all the T2Cs.

I do agree though a different title should be given after the server first full clear, for everyone else who manages to clear all.

Titles should be given to everyone who achieves something or no-one, MMOs aren't a race with a level playing field, not least because access to beta and pre-beta content gives a seriously unfair advantage: 'server firsts' are meaningless, they are no indication at all of anything beyond the fact that a set of 12 people had these advantages while many others didn't, they certainly do NOT indicate those doing it are the best players on the server, much as they may vainly try to flaunt that.

Originally Posted by Beastnas

Is there or is there not a Saruman T2C server first title?

Also, I think we'll have to wait till someone beats F/F T2C to confirm if there's a whole raid clear title. I doubt it would be server first only if it requires all bosses T2C.

i can confirm that you dont get a title for saruman cm.

maybe for all 5 cms, gonna try f&f cm today, lets see if we can beat it, will be harder than saruman i guess since we didn't spend a lot time trying it (the saruman runs before the patch helped a lot).

It could be that there is a title for server first T2 Saruman, but they have been taken by groups that exploited.

Originally Posted by Kraggy_Eldar

Titles should be given to everyone who achieves something or no-one, MMOs aren't a race with a level playing field, not least because access to beta and pre-beta content gives a seriously unfair advantage: 'server firsts' are meaningless, they are no indication at all of anything beyond the fact that a set of 12 people had these advantages while many others didn't, they certainly do NOT indicate those doing it are the best players on the server, much as they may vainly try to flaunt that.

Ah, but isn't thinking that a "server first" is entirely dependant on early access equally foolish to thinking it makes you the server best? Wait, don't answer. I was just asking rhetorically.

I don't really see anybody claiming anything about what meaning these titles hold in this thread. Where did that come from? Or rather, why are you bringing it here? Again, don't answer. I already know why.

Was going to wait until F&F Challenge fell to let this out of the bag but now seems just as appropriate.

There is a meta challenge within Orthanc. It has not been done on any server yet.

It requires all challenges to be completed in a single 'run' of the instance. You can reset each challenge as many times as you want so long as you ultimately beat them all and the instance itself never resets. People can leave to retrait and come back, you can swap members of the group, etc, all of that is valid. So long as the instance itself is never collapsed. Some causes of that are group disbandment and if the instance is empty for a period of time.

There is a title for accomplishing this at any point in time.
There is a unique title for being the first group on the server to do it.

For those who are interested, the reason we went with all challenges was a response to feedback on how we did the OD challenge and the play behaviour that generated from it.
Since OD was just the last boss' challenge, once the server first was discovered several kins cleared on tier 1 then just fought gortheron on tier 2. This defeated a large part of the intent and cheapened the accomplishment and you all were correct to point that out. This iteration we've shifted to all challenges to address the raised issues.

We could not have just done the first to complete all the challenges themselves, regardless of when, because we don't have the tech to do that. It would also be a shift to rewarding individuals...
(depending on who completed what when and the various group makeups, say only 2 of the people in on the F&F challenge have done the other 4 challenges. Are they the only ones to get the server first, does the rest of the group get it when they catch up, how many individuals get the server first before we transition it over. What if that number is crossed mid group that just completed, do some people get left out. Since this is all acting on the individual now we need a lot of messaging back and forth and a new system for the game to track and measure all of this. Etc. There's lots of really gnarly situations that develop with that model and too much tech required for something that doesn't affect that many players in the end.)
... as opposed to rewarding the group, which really makes the more sense given the raid environment and requirement for a top tier well synced group of people.

I'm sure most people wont like the idea hence the difficulty completing ToO in one go but i must admit that its really cool addition..I liked the idea and thanks for letting us know of tittles' existance

Originally Posted by Kraggy_Eldar

Titles should be given to everyone who achieves something or no-one

I agree with this, but not for the reasons you describe.

Giving such a title only to the 12 people who happen to be in the raid does not reflect the reality of the team effort that clearing a raid is. More than 12 members of a kin participate. Some might be pivotal to learning but can't make that night. Some miss out because a raid roster has more than 12 players in it. Some are on alts or miss out because of the class setup requirements of one or other fight. It is divisive and unnecessary, not between kins but within kins.

Server first titles serve no legitimate purpose.

I do, however, like the idea of a title for a single-instance clearance. That's something everyone can aspire to.

Originally Posted by jwbarry

People can leave to retrait and come back, you can swap members of the group, etc, all of that is valid. So long as the instance itself is never collapsed. Some causes of that are group disbandment and if the instance is empty for a period of time.

Ok, so for clarification, lets say 12 people clear everything but saruman, then one person swaps to an alt.

The alt and the rest of the 11 get the title, correct?

Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth

Ok, so for clarification, lets say 12 people clear everything but saruman, then one person swaps to an alt.

The alt and the rest of the 11 get the title, correct?

The 12 characters who are present in the instance when the Saruman challenge is completed are the ones who will receive the title.

Originally Posted by jwbarry

The 12 characters who are present in the instance when the Saruman challenge is completed are the ones who will receive the title.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'll probably never get this title, since i'm not part of a raiding kin, and my buddies and I only have 1 challenge down at the moment, but that really does stink for those in a raiding kin that are asked to alt a bunch, or are invited to only one wing.

Guess there's not a perfect solution, but this is still pretty cool.

Originally Posted by jwbarry

The 12 characters who are present in the instance when the Saruman challenge is completed are the ones who will receive the title.

This mechanic utterly ignores the reality of raiding kins, with rosters, rotations, the class requirements of each fight, use of more than one character etc.

My kin, for example, has 3 raiding GRDs, 3 BRGs, 3 MNS and 3 HNTs. All play a full role in our raiding, including the learning process. Asking one of each to stand down and miss out on the title is arbitrary, divisive and wholly unnecessary.

Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

This mechanic utterly ignores the reality of raiding kins, with rosters, rotations, the class requirements of each fight, use of more than one character etc.

My kin, for example, has 3 raiding GRDs, 3 BRGs, 3 MNS and 3 HNTs. All play a full role in our raiding, including the learning process. Asking one of each to stand down and miss out on the title is arbitrary, divisive and wholly unnecessary.

The problem is not the deed/title, the problem is the design of the raid itself when it comes to challange modes. Its all based on "dps-kill-hurry-hurry-destroy-timer is running down-I-can't believe this is not butter-omg" mechanic.

For certain challange modes we ask members in the kin to swap/change/etc. Its tough sometimes but it is what I call a "necessary evil". I do not agree with it but as of now that is the design/mechanic for the raid(s).

Unfortunatly bring in 3 guardians might hurt you trying to complete a challange mode. As mentioned, most challange modes are based around dps. Its a shame, but it is what it is.

Originally Posted by jwbarry

It requires all challenges to be completed in a single 'run' of the instance.

Thank you, thats just awesome imo

This requires you to not be just lucky, or doing one single boss until you get your kill, but to play well consistantly. I love it!

Some problem with alting could be fixed if these deeds were account-based, not char-based.

Originally Posted by Astegorn

Some problem with alting could be fixed if these deeds were account-based, not char-based.

This seems like an elegant solution and it also is a way to provide some recognition to players who play on a new server in the future.

Have the deed flag your LotrO subscription and operate titles like the pre-order beta.

Originally Posted by Astegorn

Some problem with alting could be fixed if these deeds were account-based, not char-based.

that would be a great compromise.

Originally Posted by jwbarry

Was going to wait until F&F Challenge fell to let this out of the bag but now seems just as appropriate.

There is a meta challenge within Orthanc. It has not been done on any server yet.

It requires all challenges to be completed in a single 'run' of the instance. You can reset each challenge as many times as you want so long as you ultimately beat them all and the instance itself never resets. People can leave to retrait and come back, you can swap members of the group, etc, all of that is valid. So long as the instance itself is never collapsed. Some causes of that are group disbandment and if the instance is empty for a period of time.

There is a title for accomplishing this at any point in time.
There is a unique title for being the first group on the server to do it.

For those who are interested, the reason we went with all challenges was a response to feedback on how we did the OD challenge and the play behaviour that generated from it.
Since OD was just the last boss' challenge, once the server first was discovered several kins cleared on tier 1 then just fought gortheron on tier 2. This defeated a large part of the intent and cheapened the accomplishment and you all were correct to point that out. This iteration we've shifted to all challenges to address the raised issues.

We could not have just done the first to complete all the challenges themselves, regardless of when, because we don't have the tech to do that. It would also be a shift to rewarding individuals...
(depending on who completed what when and the various group makeups, say only 2 of the people in on the F&F challenge have done the other 4 challenges. Are they the only ones to get the server first, does the rest of the group get it when they catch up, how many individuals get the server first before we transition it over. What if that number is crossed mid group that just completed, do some people get left out. Since this is all acting on the individual now we need a lot of messaging back and forth and a new system for the game to track and measure all of this. Etc. There's lots of really gnarly situations that develop with that model and too much tech required for something that doesn't affect that many players in the end.)
... as opposed to rewarding the group, which really makes the more sense given the raid environment and requirement for a top tier well synced group of people.

Thank you for telling us, jwb, as I'm not sure any group would have tried doing all challenges in a single run if you hadn't.

Originally Posted by Crell_1

This seems like an elegant solution and it also is a way to provide some recognition to players who play on a new server in the future.

Have the deed flag your LotrO subscription and operate titles like the pre-order beta.

That would require the instance to distribute 12 unique keys to be put into your account manually in order to work the same way because currently deeds and any other in-game activity, other than store related stuff (which is a completely different beast), is not capable of affecting an account.

Cool challenge. I'm looking forward to seeing kins earn both of the titles. I wouldnt get too hung up on which members of a kin are present for the server first one. I've always viewed these as foremost "kin" achievements regardless of whoever gets the final title. The title belongs to your kin tag not to you personally, and anyone that raids will know that.

Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth

that would be a great compromise.

If it were technically possible.

Originally Posted by wikjif

That would require the instance to distribute 12 unique keys to be put into your account manually in order to work the same way because currently deeds and any other in-game activity, other than store related stuff (which is a completely different beast), is not capable of affecting an account.

Eh.. It might be possible via the back-end store calls. 'Apply ProductToken: ToOT2ServerFirst ' Not claiming to have an idea of the work load, but trying to present ideas and solutions to encourage the creation of similiar content while being accessible to the players who put in the the effort. ; Plenty of people have to alt-between wings. The creation of once-per-server tech, and run the entire instance in one sitting tech, implies that this may not be entirely out of reach.

By default, in every raid, there should be a title associated with a full T1 clear, a title associated with a full T2 clear and a title associated with a full T2c clear; all on an individual basis (per the draigoch setup). Any bonus or extra super challenge titles you want to add is fine but I can't see any reason for not having simple completion based titles.

Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

This mechanic utterly ignores the reality of raiding kins, with rosters, rotations, the class requirements of each fight, use of more than one character etc.

My kin, for example, has 3 raiding GRDs, 3 BRGs, 3 MNS and 3 HNTs. All play a full role in our raiding, including the learning process. Asking one of each to stand down and miss out on the title is arbitrary, divisive and wholly unnecessary.

Like I said, server firsts are meaningless, once you come to accept that then there's no need for the /emo which this silly idea causes.

Originally Posted by jwbarry

There is a unique title for being the first group on the server to do it.

Why?

What value does this have, when THIS IS NOT A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD where all participants are equal, where for example pre-knowledge gained from being part of the inner circle who get to test content makes a HUGE difference?

Originally Posted by Melmadoc

I think it's a bit annoying that only the first 12 People beating Saruman CM get Titels - no Titel for all other CM - no complete Title - I think it's ab bit annoying if you couldn't be part of the raid were your Kin would kill Saruman Serverfirst and you didn't get ANY Title...

What do you think?
Before this Raid there was a Title in EVERY raidcluster for Killing anything - why not in Ortanc?

I think it's annoying the server first titles all went to people who exploited the fight. But the title is horrible and lame anyway so I don't lament the fact overmuch because of that.

I understand why people are negative about a server first title which only 12 people get, but to me it looks like people are never satisfied with how anything are done. When the Skeleton Mount from the event were super-rare people were bitching. When the Skeleton Mount got offered on the store so those who were bitching could get it, they were still bitching. (Sorry about the language)

I think some things should be very exclusive in this game, like a server first title. A title for first Saruman CM kill would be kinda pointless due to the exploiting that was going on. This new idea though, where one would have to complete all the challenges in one instance for the title, I think is much better. One would not only have to be a skilled kin to have the kills down, but also have them on farm to make it go within a reasonable timeframe, or just extreme dedication and long raiding sessions.

There's one thing I'd like to see though, and that's a title for everyone who completes this "All Challanges In One Instance" madness! Kind of like a tier 1 of the title, while server first gets the tier 2 of that title; a much cooler-sounding one. That way those who give it a fair amount of tries don't get discouraged or even pissed off when another kin on the server grabs the server first before them.

In conclusion: reward for everyone, but a bigger one for first place so people got a carrot to pursue

Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

This mechanic utterly ignores the reality of raiding kins, with rosters, rotations, the class requirements of each fight, use of more than one character etc.

My kin, for example, has 3 raiding GRDs, 3 BRGs, 3 MNS and 3 HNTs. All play a full role in our raiding, including the learning process. Asking one of each to stand down and miss out on the title is arbitrary, divisive and wholly unnecessary.

And what exactly stops you to clear this more than once so other kin members could get the title too ? (Well, not talking about server first of course )

Originally Posted by Astegorn

Some problem with alting could be fixed if these deeds were account-based, not char-based.

Yeah, because having lvl7 farmer in the Shire with Isengard Challenge title makes so much sense...

Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ

By default, in every raid, there should be a title associated with a full T1 clear, a title associated with a full T2 clear and a title associated with a full T2c clear; all on an individual basis (per the draigoch setup). Any bonus or extra super challenge titles you want to add is fine but I can't see any reason for not having simple completion based titles.

This.

Originally Posted by sdf-blarelius

Thank you, thats just awesome imo

This requires you to not be just lucky, or doing one single boss until you get your kill, but to play well consistantly. I love it!

Sounds good on paper, except for how the extreme difficulty level makes it unlikely that very many servers will have a group complete this before the level cap rises.

Originally Posted by MightyKOko

Yeah, because having lvl7 farmer in the Shire with Isengard Challenge title makes so much sense...

I'd say grant it when you reach level 75 and finish the T1 meta for the character, but that just seems needlessly complex.
It's an acknowledgement that the player has done something special. You don't have to wear it if you don't want to.

Originally Posted by MorphenVanyarion

Sounds good on paper, except for how the extreme difficulty level makes it unlikely that very many servers will have a group complete this before the level cap rises.

Riddermark got its server first T2C OD just recently, and I was there, we're still trying to get 1 of our 12 the title. I hope that +JWB DOESN'T require the 30s rez for players who were a part of this long and epic feat, or allows the GMs to grant it to players / characters who were clearly at the server first kill.

Server first titles lost to a zoning screen (tower top to bottom)... would be a real shame.

Kind of a neat deed. Thanks for letting us in on it.
Now to plan that Saturday that my 11 closest friends and I are willing and able to waste...

The server-first title you get wouldn't happen to be "Wife Aggro" would it?

Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ

By default, in every raid, there should be a title associated with a full T1 clear, a title associated with a full T2 clear and a title associated with a full T2c clear; all on an individual basis (per the draigoch setup). Any bonus or extra super challenge titles you want to add is fine but I can't see any reason for not having simple completion based titles.

Personally, I think this is the real "compromise". Give everyone a title -- but give a special title to people who do the challenge clear or even a more special title for people who do the challenge clear first on the server. The end.

Originally Posted by MightyKOko

And what exactly stops you to clear this more than once so other kin members could get the title too ? (Well, not talking about server first of course )

I was, in fact, only talking about the server first title - I thought I'd made that clear. Obviously the other title can be got for anyone who wants it in time.

Originally Posted by nightzirch90

A title for first Saruman CM kill would be kinda pointless due to the exploiting that was going on.

Actually it wouldn't in this case, because the exploiters didn't complete the challenge (which requires you to completely destroy the ring, something you can only achieve by succeeding in the final ring-show round after phase 5). The exploit terminated the fight much earlier.

As regards the general principle that an exploitable fight could mean cheaters getting a title they didn't earn and (the crucial point) denying it to others, yes that has to be a risk. Another reason not to have one-time-only titles, IMO.

Originally Posted by Astegorn

Some problem with alting could be fixed if these deeds were account-based, not char-based.

That would mean that level 20 crafting toons would get the title too....

I'm generally not one to multi-quote, but in the 2 1/2 pages of this thread it appears that folks are already misunderstanding what jwbarry wrote. In a way, I'm impressed.

First, jwbarry's post again, with key points highlighted by me for emphasis.

Originally Posted by jwbarry

Was going to wait until F&F Challenge fell to let this out of the bag but now seems just as appropriate.

There is a meta challenge within Orthanc. It has not been done on any server yet.

It requires all challenges to be completed in a single 'run' of the instance. You can reset each challenge as many times as you want so long as you ultimately beat them all and the instance itself never resets. People can leave to retrait and come back, you can swap members of the group, etc, all of that is valid. So long as the instance itself is never collapsed. Some causes of that are group disbandment and if the instance is empty for a period of time.

There is a title for accomplishing this at any point in time.
There is a unique title for being the first group on the server to do it.

For those who are interested, the reason we went with all challenges was a response to feedback on how we did the OD challenge and the play behaviour that generated from it.
Since OD was just the last boss' challenge, once the server first was discovered several kins cleared on tier 1 then just fought gortheron on tier 2. This defeated a large part of the intent and cheapened the accomplishment and you all were correct to point that out. This iteration we've shifted to all challenges to address the raised issues.

We could not have just done the first to complete all the challenges themselves, regardless of when, because we don't have the tech to do that. It would also be a shift to rewarding individuals...
(depending on who completed what when and the various group makeups, say only 2 of the people in on the F&F challenge have done the other 4 challenges. Are they the only ones to get the server first, does the rest of the group get it when they catch up, how many individuals get the server first before we transition it over. What if that number is crossed mid group that just completed, do some people get left out. Since this is all acting on the individual now we need a lot of messaging back and forth and a new system for the game to track and measure all of this. Etc. There's lots of really gnarly situations that develop with that model and too much tech required for something that doesn't affect that many players in the end.)
... as opposed to rewarding the group, which really makes the more sense given the raid environment and requirement for a top tier well synced group of people.

And now...

Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk

I think it's annoying the server first titles all went to people who exploited the fight. But the title is horrible and lame anyway so I don't lament the fact overmuch because of that.

The server first title (and the other title) is only for beating all Challenge modes in a single run of the instance. Even the exploiters never beat F&F Challenge, so they won't have these titles. For that matter, most of the Saruman T2 exploiting only awarded T2 completion, not T2C.

Also, note the underlined passage above. The titles have not been awarded to anyone yet. So... your concern isn't an issue.

Originally Posted by nightzirch90

I understand why people are negative about a server first title which only 12 people get, but to me it looks like people are never satisfied with how anything are done. When the Skeleton Mount from the event were super-rare people were bitching. When the Skeleton Mount got offered on the store so those who were bitching could get it, they were still bitching. (Sorry about the language)

I think some things should be very exclusive in this game, like a server first title. A title for first Saruman CM kill would be kinda pointless due to the exploiting that was going on. This new idea though, where one would have to complete all the challenges in one instance for the title, I think is much better. One would not only have to be a skilled kin to have the kills down, but also have them on farm to make it go within a reasonable timeframe, or just extreme dedication and long raiding sessions.

There's one thing I'd like to see though, and that's a title for everyone who completes this "All Challanges In One Instance" madness! Kind of like a tier 1 of the title, while server first gets the tier 2 of that title; a much cooler-sounding one. That way those who give it a fair amount of tries don't get discouraged or even pissed off when another kin on the server grabs the server first before them.

In conclusion: reward for everyone, but a bigger one for first place so people got a carrot to pursue

See the bolded section in jwbarry's post. He's implemented exactly what you're asking for: any group that completes all challenges in one instance run gets a title, and the group that does it the first time on each server gets another title.

Originally Posted by Crell_1

Riddermark got its server first T2C OD just recently, and I was there, we're still trying to get 1 of our 12 the title. I hope that +JWB DOESN'T require the 30s rez for players who were a part of this long and epic feat, or allows the GMs to grant it to players / characters who were clearly at the server first kill.

Server first titles lost to a zoning screen (tower top to bottom)... would be a real shame.

Since the Challenge Mode for Saruman requires that nobody dies at any point during the fight, there won't be any issues with dead people not receiving the title(s) since none of the 12 will receive the title(s) anyway. If someone lags out while zoning and misses the title, however, that would be unfortunate.

Finally, on an unrelated note:

Originally Posted by Kraggy_Eldar

Why?

What value does this have, when THIS IS NOT A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD where all participants are equal, where for example pre-knowledge gained from being part of the inner circle who get to test content makes a HUGE difference?

It can never be a level playing field anyway due to the fact that people have varying levels of skill, but even leaving that aside...

Given that two of the fights were overtuned to the point that no one could beat them, and that jwbarry specifically told us - us as in all of us on the public forums - what the changes would be, no one could possibly have gained an advantage in beating Saruman T2C this week (or F&F T2C, whenever that happens) by being involved in the Palantir program. In fact, there's a strong suspicion that the folks on Palantir never managed to beat those fights either - at the very least, we can't get a dev to confirm that the fights were ever beaten in their previous incarnation.

Regardless, I think my first point remains. Skill (and teamwork, coordination, and intelligence) trumps foreknowledge any day.

Sorry, my good sir, for missing a line. My fault entierly and I apologize for any problems this may have caused

<3