I have seen guard's with over 2k vitality and then other's with 1.5k. I know a good guardian should not just stack only vitality, but how much is too little? And how much is TOO much?
I agree with both posts. You want to be able to have around 2.0-2.1k for trash pulls for T2 ToO, and 2.2k + for tactical fights like Saruman. The reason you want the high vit is both for the morale but also to cap your tac mit. My opinion, ymmv.
Vit is very important, but please do not forget about might and avoidances. Avoiding attacks (BPE) is going to do you more good than if you are hit of course, so pay attention to your BPE when taking into consideration where your moral is. Look at what your stats are going to be fully buffed and if you are maxed out for tact and common damage look into your other stats.
That being said, the above posters are very correct, having less than 16000 moral unbuffed is likely too little for endgame raid content. My opinion is that once you have tac mit maxed out while buffed, you should focus on might to help your block rating and ups your damage output which helps with aggro. I do this by wearing two of the might set armor pieces which allows for a great deal of added might (damage/threat output) AND adds 1k finesse that really can make the difference. I NEVER want my engage to miss and having the extra finesse has helped me out across the board.
2000 is a good number to aim for, I suppose. Once you're there, get your tact mit up so it's capped in a raid setting (assume ward up, scrolls, and possibly either anthem of composure/LM raven/r8 cappy banner/cappy motivate bonus). Then start looking at incoming healing & avoidances. Vitality is only the beginning of your tanking build, really, there's so much more to help increase your overall sturdiness.
Also, as mentioned by the previous poster, don't neglect finesse, and not mentioned, agility! Agility reduces your miss chance, adds to crit rating (litany master, huzzah), evade & parry. Mainly the miss chance & finesse here are important though as in a DPS race setting or whatever you don't want half your taunts getting resisted or missing. I run with 2k vit, 5k finesse and 400+ agility when tanking Acid T2 for instance, having your engage miss after Challenge/CtD is pretty much an insta-wipe.
OK, my main is a hunter, but I am slowly switching over to using my guardian most of the time (also a 75). I know I need to grind the rest of my virtues out as they aren't maxed, but besides that, how the heck do you people get to 2000 vitality?
Currently, I have 1677 and unbuffed morale of just over 12000. Do I just need to get luckier on my loot rolls in some of the instances for jewellery?
My gear is (sorry, not on game, can't give exact stats on some stuff) pieces are:
5 of the Draigoch set pieces (5@122 vit = 610 vit)
the Great River potent helmet of defence (63 vit)
Strong Battle Shield of Theodred (58 vit)
the Lowly Orc earring with like 126 vit
2 of the 3 Anduin Martyr pieces (not kindred with LL yet, so not upgraded)
bracelet of strength remembered (95 vit)
Horseman's Golden Necklace (87 vit) (working on the Ox camp necklace, need 27 more sigil frags for upgrade, but this will have a little less vitality I think)
ring of the ox (84 vit)
Hyrde-Are (77 vit)
Cloak that I can't remember, but probably adds between 50 and 70 vit. If I ever win scales this will go up.
The only piece that doesn't add SOME vitality is my other bracelet, wrath's hour, but I have that for the might/agility boost. I guess I could get rid of that for either an instance reward or one of the 2 great river Vit bracelets (Exquisite Great River Bracelet of Skill/Strength).
So improving my jewellery/cloak will add to my Vitality, yes, but I am not thinking it will add the 323 Vit I need to get to 2000...will it? Do I need to invest in Vitality legacies (most guards in this forum seem to recommend using the legacies to shore up Might/Agility). Do I need to go grab that 6th Draig piece too?
And don't even get me started on my B/P/E's....sigh, so much to grind, so little time to grind!
Thanks for any suggestions and for putting up with this rambling/all-over-the-place post!
Last edited by peterbutt; May 18 2012 at 12:16 PM.
OK, my main is a hunter, but I am slowly switching over to using my guardian most of the time (also a 75). I know I need to grind the rest of my virtues out as they aren't maxed, but besides that, how the heck do you people get to 2000 vitality?
Currently, I have 1677 and unbuffed morale of just over 12000. Do I just need to get luckier on my loot rolls in some of the instances for jewellery?
My gear is (sorry, not on game, can't give exact stats on some stuff) pieces are:
5 of the Draigoch set pieces (610 vit)
the Great River potent helmet of defence (63 vit)
the Lowly Orc earring with like 126 vit
2 of the 3 Anduin Martyr pieces (not kindred with LL yet, so not upgraded)
bracelet of strength remembered (95 vit)
Horseman's Golden Necklace (87 vit) (working on the Ox camp necklace, need 27 more sigil frags for upgrade)
ring of the ox (84 vit)
Hyrde-Are (77 vit)
Cloak that I can't remember, but probably adds between 50 and 70 vit. If I ever win scales this will go up.
Your gear is incomplete yes but you've made the right choices I suppose. There's some huge vitality boosters waiting for you, the RoF bracelet is absolutely top notch, there's another 68 vit coming from set bonuses on the orthanc set, and yes, you might want to go with using vitality legacies on both weapon and belt. Your shield can get up to ~67 vit aswell. Anyway, plenty of options to get that vitality up. Have a peek on my MyLotro page for an, in my eyes, fairly balanced build with not *too* much fancy gear going on.
Thanks for the quick reply! I will definitely check out that shield (I edited my post to add my Theodred shield...your's is 8 or 9 vit higher, but also includes some nice might and extra blocking...whereas mine has power...I'll go with yours !). Also, guess I could upgrade my helmet with one of the ToO instance helms (haven't done any of the ToO raids, so it's the best I can do). Still, the bump from 63 to 95 vitality is a worthy upgrade, even if it will cost me a lot of my hard-won seals/medallions. And I saw the bracelet from RoF...it is on my short list of must-haves. Now if only it would drop...
Thanks for the quick reply! I will definitely check out that shield (I edited my post to add my Theodred shield...your's is 8 or 9 vit higher, but also includes some nice might and extra blocking...whereas mine has power...I'll go with yours !). Also, guess I could upgrade my helmet with one of the ToO instance helms (haven't done any of the ToO raids, so it's the best I can do). Still, the bump from 63 to 95 vitality is a worthy upgrade, even if it will cost me a lot of my hard-won seals/medallions. And I saw the bracelet from RoF...it is on my short list of must-haves. Now if only it would drop...
Also, once you DO get into the fancier loot, there is a shield that drops from tower wings that starts with an H (will look when I'm at home) that has extremely nice stats. There is piece of jewelry (bracelet?) that drops from Draigoch with something like 122 vit and 60-some might. I also have a maxed vit legacy on both my LIs. Just these 4 things would give you about 150-175 more vit.
Edit: I currently have about 2200 vit and only have that Draigoch jewelry piece left on my short term "to get" list.
Thanks for more tips! Only downside to that: running Draigoch until it drops...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Oh yeah, and I guess I better get working on those virtues if I want in on any ToO raids cuz the last 3 times I tried to get in I was just plain old ignored.
By the way, I don't know where he is or if any of you have run into him on Brandywine, but there is a hunter named Adlers who took a bunch of us first-timer's through Draigoch on Wednesday. We hit all our CJ's, didn't wipe once, and only had to rez individuals 4 or 5 times. He is the kind of PATIENT, HELPFUL leader this game is famous for! I had to run in OP mode since there was already a tank for the head, but the fact that he took any and all players was such a nice change to the usual PUG leaders on Brandywine. So if you ever run into him out there, he is a great guy and a fantastic leader!
My guard hit 75 and after some crafted gear was 9k unbuffed, he is now at 15,035. It is a slow climb up but keep going at it one piece at a time. One thing I don't see mentioned is relics. I think I have 700 or more morale on each LI. I know this will change in the future but most raids want a big morale tank. Shards are the slowing process for relic combines each one of my alts craft relics everyday they can and I break those down for shards. I read were it used to be easier in the moors to get shards but last moors patch took out the items to get relics.
With 15k and the dragon set bonus and some legacies for the warrior's heart/fortitude I can heal myself for a good amount and feel comfortable soloing the dragon head or heal up quick in T2 instances with PUG groups.
I will try to get my vitality over 2k, and at the same time work on getting other important stats (like might, incoming healing, etc.) I guess collecting good gear and then mixing and matching is the best way to go.
I run with just over 2000 Vitality, and pay more attention to getting my mitigations up, keeping my finese above 4k, keeping block and parry as high as possible, maxing my incoming healing, and keeping resistance high than stacking further with morale.
I aim for 20k mitigations buffed, both Tactical and Common damage mitigation.
Crit:795
Finese: 4104
Block: 8848 (no stance, + Treat Stance, + GW block legacy, +GT B/P legacy gets me to 25% vs same level)
Parry: 4177 (same deal, about 17% vs same level)
Evade: 2924
It's obviously good to go with vitality as your primary stat when tanking, but there's also such thing as taking it to an extreme. The main benefits of vitality(tactical mitigation, morale and resistance) can be had in sufficient numbers without stacking 2000+ vitality.
Tactical mitigation can be had from buffs, traits, relics and just about any sort of gear. It is often much more efficient to stack it in raw values rather than stacking vitality in the hopes of achieving a high sum.
Morale seems to be coveted by most guards, but it's just one form of prolonging life while tanking. Extra morale doesn't mean anything if you don't have the mitigations to compliment it... and why excessively stack extra morale when you can build up some avoidance? -- which is capable of completely mitigating a damage source.
Resistance is nice, but you can add large lump sums via virtue traits, thus negating a need to get it from vitality.
I usually run somewhere in the range of ~1600+ vitality when tanking and can tank anything with these numbers. Just remember not to put your eggs in one basket. Stacking vitality to extremes does not make you a more capable tank, it just means you've turned off your brain. There are several game mechanics at play when you're tanking and you should address them evenly.
Tactical mitigation can be had from buffs, traits, relics and just about any sort of gear.
Which relics have tactical mitigation? The only one I can see is the one that also has tactical mastery and power. But the tactical mitigation on it is insignificant. You can get that much tactical mitigation from 30-40 vitality.
Originally Posted by mootay
Morale seems to be coveted by most guards, but it's just one form of prolonging life while tanking. Extra morale doesn't mean anything if you don't have the mitigations to compliment it... and why excessively stack extra morale when you can build up some avoidance? -- which is capable of completely mitigating a damage source.
Except that avoidance is almost useless at some fights like shadow T2, where 75% of the time I have buff that makes me unable to bpe, reduces inc healing and increases inc damage. High morale pool, as well as high mitigation can save you there. And I don't know a high morale tank who has low tactical mitigations. Tanks don't stack pure morale, they stack vitality, which gives both morale and tactical mitigation.
Originally Posted by mootay
Resistance is nice, but you can add large lump sums via virtue traits, thus negating a need to get it from vitality.
Resistance is almost useless, especially in Orthanc T2 where I think that bosses have 25% finesse. I have around 25% unbuffed and I only get 1-2 resistances max during the fight on Saruman T2. So it's really useless, unless you have 50% resistance, which can only be achieved if you use all high resistance virtues. Which means that you are sacrificing tactical mitigation and other useful stats.
Originally Posted by mootay
I usually run somewhere in the range of ~1600+ vitality when tanking and can tank anything with these numbers.
What exactly have you tanked with 1600 vitality? What does "anything" mean?
Originally Posted by mootay
Stacking vitality to extremes does not make you a more capable tank,
Neither does not stacking it. If someone doesn't know to tank, the build he has is not important, doesn't matter how good that build is.
Thanks for more tips! Only downside to that: running Draigoch until it drops...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Oh yeah, and I guess I better get working on those virtues if I want in on any ToO raids cuz the last 3 times I tried to get in I was just plain old ignored.
By the way, I don't know where he is or if any of you have run into him on Brandywine, but there is a hunter named Adlers who took a bunch of us first-timer's through Draigoch on Wednesday. We hit all our CJ's, didn't wipe once, and only had to rez individuals 4 or 5 times. He is the kind of PATIENT, HELPFUL leader this game is famous for! I had to run in OP mode since there was already a tank for the head, but the fact that he took any and all players was such a nice change to the usual PUG leaders on Brandywine. So if you ever run into him out there, he is a great guy and a fantastic leader!
the other really good thing about running dragon runs is the 65 seals you get out of it....best way to get seals in the game atm.
Which relics have tactical mitigation? The only one I can see is the one that also has tactical mastery and power. But the tactical mitigation on it is insignificant. You can get that much tactical mitigation from 30-40 vitality.
Listing relics as a source of raw tactical mit values is just being thorough, the values on the current relic line-up aren't great, but they are there. However, people who picked up earlier relics--that have been phased out--and saved them with a relic removal scroll have some very significant tactical mit bonuses.(i.e. emerald of the verdant glen)
Originally Posted by Gomar_Eldar
Except that avoidance is almost useless at some fights like shadow T2, where 75% of the time I have buff that makes me unable to bpe, reduces inc healing and increases inc damage. High morale pool, as well as high mitigation can save you there. And I don't know a high morale tank who has low tactical mitigations. Tanks don't stack pure morale, they stack vitality, which gives both morale and tactical mitigation.
Resistance is almost useless, especially in Orthanc T2 where I think that bosses have 25% finesse. I have around 25% unbuffed and I only get 1-2 resistances max during the fight on Saruman T2. So it's really useless, unless you have 50% resistance, which can only be achieved if you use all high resistance virtues. Which means that you are sacrificing tactical mitigation and other useful stats.
Oh I see, so because of your experiences in Orthanc T2.. avoidance and resistance must be totally useless... wait...
Oh and yes some tanks will stack pure morale(especially without the mitigations to compliment it), I've seen it several times. Here I'm stressing the importance of *not* stacking morale to a fault.
Originally Posted by Gomar_Eldar
What exactly have you tanked with 1600 vitality? What does "anything" mean?
Actually it is ~1600+. That in itself means around 1600 and then on up. As for "anything"--what do you think it means?
Stacking over 2k vit seems pointless to me it seems like if you stack up 2 much vit the phy mit is neglected a lot and tanks go down easy with mobs. I'm a warden and i trying 2 keep my block rating up then i just use a bunch of gambits for parry and evade rating. and some income healing is nice but i don't need as much since i can self heal so well. ive mainly just been trying to keep my mits even. here are my stats.
vit - 1,777
might - 1104
agility - 225 anyting 200 and above good for pulling and fate and will states don't matter for warden i just stack incombat power regeneration relics onto my legendarys.
phy mit - 12,740
tact mit - 12,764
armour - 5,605 put into regards i wear medium armour mits are what keep you alive.
block - 7,494
parry - 3,761
evade - 2,948
crit avoid - 3,108 very underrated stat.
resistance - 5,379 just use virtues to get this stat up.
morale - 13,301
power - 2,060
don't worry about tons of morale and since im warden i just have gambit that gives 1.9k tac mit so it maxes that stat out. with gaurdians i would get more parry and evade but with wardens you can keep up gambits that sky rocket those 2 stats so no point 2 grind those 2 stats up. and its nice just having block rating almost at max when i put block gambit on i can focus on those 2 stats really easy.
Stacking over 2k vit seems pointless to me it seems like if you stack up 2 much vit the phy mit is neglected a lot and tanks go down easy with mobs. I'm a warden and i trying 2 keep my block rating up then i just use a bunch of gambits for parry and evade rating. and some income healing is nice but i don't need as much since i can self heal so well. ive mainly just been trying to keep my mits even. here are my stats.
vit - 1,777
might - 1104
agility - 225 anyting 200 and above good for pulling and fate and will states don't matter for warden i just stack incombat power regeneration relics onto my legendarys.
phy mit - 12,740
tact mit - 12,764
armour - 5,605 put into regards i wear medium armour mits are what keep you alive.
block - 7,494
parry - 3,761
evade - 2,948
crit avoid - 3,108 very underrated stat.
resistance - 5,379 just use virtues to get this stat up.
morale - 13,301
power - 2,060
don't worry about tons of morale and since im warden i just have gambit that gives 1.9k tac mit so it maxes that stat out. with gaurdians i would get more parry and evade but with wardens you can keep up gambits that sky rocket those 2 stats so no point 2 grind those 2 stats up. and its nice just having block rating almost at max when i put block gambit on i can focus on those 2 stats really easy.
You're a warden whose mits cap at like 14k(?). Guardian tact mit caps 20% higher at 18.1k, which is why guards stack vitality this high.
You make a lot of weird points in your post. For instance how 'incoming healing is nice but not so important because you can self-heal so well.' Incoming healing affects self-heals aswell. I don't see how stacking healing is in any way less important for wardens. Then there's phys mit, which is pretty much useless (except in spars) once common mitigation is capped.
ICPR, then, is another useless stat for tanks. Power is pretty much the only thing tanks really don't have to worry about. Any halfdecent captain or LM should have no trouble at all keeping our power topped up, especially considering we have some nice power regen skills plus power pots ourselves.
Your point about armour rating I just don't understand at all, armour rating adds mainly (which is to say, 100% of the actual rating) to your common mitigation which is why it's so easy to cap.
You say 200 agility is enough. I disagree, although I see lots and lots of (undergeared, perhaps) tanks running around with agility that low. Agility is mainly important for the reduction in miss chance, although it also adds to your avoidances. I personally run with 530, while maintaining ~2200 vit and ~1000 might.
Only part I can pretty much agree on is crit defence being an underrated stat, though guards have an inherently higher crit defence than wardens (we have 3300/10% crit defence without building for it beside having one of the best shields available) and higher mitigations aswell, so spike damage is already lower and less frequent on us than it is on wardens.
I would pretty much disregard all the advice in the previous post if you are reading this as a guardian and wondering what to focus on stat-wise when building your guard. Might be good for wardens though.
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