Thread: Raid has more healers than there are creeps online

Go Go zergatron

Forum needed some more bitching, it's be too nice.

Oh yea almost forgot, horay for increased DPS.

Yeah, now I blow up in 2 seconds when it's 15+ v 1. Nice job freepnami.

The new item gives a .8 dps increase and you can have up to 3....nice troll noobs

and its even less than that for certain classes.

I won't even bother to talk about the crystals. It's nonsense.

As for complaining about the freep raid, I only gave one thing to say.

Split up and avoid the raid.

I was out there for a solid 5+ hours yesterday and the amount of freeps NOT zerged up or running where the freep group was were very few.

There are freeps out there looking for fights. And I personally am tired of needing to run with the Zerg to find the higher ranked creeps to fight.

Originally Posted by shilow7

The new item gives a .8 dps increase and you can have up to 3....nice troll noobs

and its even less than that for certain classes.

im preety sure its 12%increase dirt on second agers add 3% scrolls witch i never have heh add 5% from store =20% increase hehehhe but hell creeps do cry wayyy to much now now my creeps feel dang tough.ive had no issiues downing all but the toughest freeps

Well, Turbine has some kind of plan they ain't telling us about. With all the QQ about Freep DPS, they just raised it again this update...working as intended apparantly.

Originally Posted by haroldhnicholos

im preety sure its 12%increase dirt on second agers add 3% scrolls witch i never have heh add 5% from store =20% increase hehehhe but hell creeps do cry wayyy to much now now my creeps feel dang tough.ive had no issiues downing all but the toughest freeps

1> 1st age weapons exist and exceed the dps of a second age with 3 crystals still. So a buff to second ages is not really a buff to dps. It just means they're getting a weak 1st age. The 1st age buff is .8 DPS per crystal...mine seemed to round down to 2.3 at 3 crystals. So it's a little less than .8 each one. This is hardly noticable, and I've killed a LOT of NPCs lately testing it. One more dev or crit in a fight that was a crit or a standard hit, or the proper application of a rend actually makes more difference than those crystals.

2> Scrolls/DP have always existed...so that's not an increase at all.

I really wish people would stop spreading inaccurate information about these things. They really hurt the TRUE analysis of creep/freep power balance. Which, IMHO, does favour freepside generally, with spikes in certain class/builds that are the most problematic.

But when things like 20% increase get thrown around, which are PATENTLY UNTRUE, it just reinforces poor play from the creeps who feel that they've been gimped and cannot match up at all. So we see zerging, and warg packs, and well, you get the picture.

Creeps are better off now than they've historically been by a large margin. Is there work still to be done? Yes. But gameplay should be more dynamic and engaging than ever given the relatively diminished power gap between creeps and freeps.

I love how people on both sides are so married to the idea of being grouped/zerged up that they whine when the other side has a lot of healers?????


Like, you don't have to go where the freeps are all grouped up. Split up. Explore. Fights are out there.


It's like complaining about being farmed. The only way the other side can farm is if the other side is stupid enough to keep going back to the same place.


The map is huge people. You don't have to be grouped all the time, especially when the other side is just zerged up. Calm down. Relax. and Explore.

When the OP was in TR last night with 20+ other creeps, there were several of us wandering the map. At least 5 of us sorta criss crossed at BB and 2 folks had a spar. It was boring. Creeps were too busy PvEing the rez, while the real PvPers were exploring. I, personally, was able to fight Purukhai outside of TR while he tried to get in. Not getting the 100 comms for the CG killed must have broken his heart cuz that's a lot of comms.

Look at your own playstyle OP. Most complaints on here are utterly avoidable. Just walk away. If they're playing like a bunch of sissies, just play differently. It's not hard.

The fact people either *have* to be in/around TA/Stab/Wtab is hilarious. No room to complain when you're just PvEing or hanging out in a stupid location....


edit: just wait. wait a few minutes for the freep/creep zerg to get their PvE out of the way. Nothing is better than watching the map turn a certain color quick because you know all those people are about to log, then we can all get back to PvP! yay

Originally Posted by Thane9

1> 1st age weapons exist and exceed the dps of a second age with 3 crystals still. So a buff to second ages is not really a buff to dps. It just means they're getting a weak 1st age. The 1st age buff is .8 DPS per crystal...mine seemed to round down to 2.3 at 3 crystals. So it's a little less than .8 each one. This is hardly noticable, and I've killed a LOT of NPCs lately testing it. One more dev or crit in a fight that was a crit or a standard hit, or the proper application of a rend actually makes more difference than those crystals.

Did you get 3 crystals already, Luc? Don't tell me you stored it

I did like 15 Tier3 skirmishes last night and got one star-lit crystal. It up'd my DPS by about 1.1% and it pushed my BE over 1k damage. I know a lot of LMs are above and beyond a 1k BE; but for a morale-stacking nub LM like myself, that's a lot!

Originally Posted by soccercake7

Did you get 3 crystals already, Luc? Don't tell me you stored it

I did like 15 Tier3 skirmishes last night and got one star-lit crystal. It up'd my DPS by about 1.1% and it pushed my BE over 1k damage. I know a lot of LMs are above and beyond a 1k BE; but for a morale-stacking nub LM like myself, that's a lot!

I have a monthly stream of TP for my lifetime account and when there's new items that are persistant made available (think stat upgrades typically) that's where they go.

I DESPISE the PvE grind and anything I can do to avoid it is worthwhile.

I got my 1st age from a Box, I played the market on those prior to U6 and opened 14 (went through about 700 gold--the BEST thing about U6 was comm bought pots, now I don't have a 50g a week potion habit to feed) and got lucky.

Could I grind skirms? yeah. Would I rather poke my eyes out with a rusty fork? Yes.

Do you have a 1st or 2nd age? Because 1.1% is a TON compared to what I got on my 1st age. .8dps, not .8% but literally .8 dps. On a weapon with ~136 dps...

Oh and btw, to anyone who has been so gracious as to allow me to fill in on their raids, I'm still available and will NOT be rolling on any first age drops...just in case you need some dps at any point. I got lucky with the boxes but I'd be pretty rude to not be willing to help others get theirs.

Originally Posted by soccercake7

I love how people on both sides are so married to the idea of being grouped/zerged up that they whine when the other side has a lot of healers?????


Like, you don't have to go where the freeps are all grouped up. Split up. Explore. Fights are out there.


It's like complaining about being farmed. The only way the other side can farm is if the other side is stupid enough to keep going back to the same place.


The map is huge people. You don't have to be grouped all the time, especially when the other side is just zerged up. Calm down. Relax. and Explore.

You know what Fell, I think you really are a bit crazy, cause these are just nonsensical ravings. I have soloed just about 80% of my play time the past two weeks. Even if you dont find the zerg, you find groups that smash the #### out of you.

This map is so friggin small, you can run a relic from one side to the other without speed in about four minutes, if that long. That being part of the complaint, the smaller the zone is the more effective the zergling vinnions are.

When I have a grp of 12 to 14 and the freep raid has 7+ minis including Jayine, and 4 or 5 rks, when you hit that grp with your focus fire, and you are lucky if you get two or three kills before you are decimated, people start to leave. I threw my raid at that biomass everyway i could last night. Then we are out looking for them just to find they are all gone. It's that kind of play that is killing this place and why so many are leaving.

Originally Posted by soccercake7

I did like 15 Tier3 skirmishes last night and got one star-lit crystal. It up'd my DPS by about 1.1% and it pushed my BE over 1k damage. I know a lot of LMs are above and beyond a 1k BE; but for a morale-stacking nub LM like myself, that's a lot!

Thank you, the last thing creeps needed to deal with was an increase in DPS, even 1.1% is significant when refering to overall DPS that is already significantly higher than creeps.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

You know what Fell, I think you really are a bit crazy, cause these are just nonsensical ravings. I have soloed just about 80% of my play time the past two weeks. Even if you dont find the zerg, you find groups that smash the #### out of you.

This map is so friggin small, you can run a relic from one side to the other without speed in about four minutes, if that long. That being part of the complaint, the smaller the zone is the more effective the zergling vinnions are.

When I have a grp of 12 to 14 and the freep raid has 7+ minis including Jayine, and 4 or 5 rks, when you hit that grp with your focus fire, and you are lucky if you get two or three kills before you are decimated, people start to leave. I threw my raid at that biomass everyway i could last night. Then we are out looking for them just to find they are all gone. It's that kind of play that is killing this place and why so many are leaving.

It's not that small. I can still go a mighty long time and not even SEE another freep or a creep. This becomes even more true during prime time when there's MORE players on...strange but true...the more the more they bunch up. The tighter the "circle" that you can ride around and never see a player gets.

[QUOTE=Thane9;6175366]It's not that small. I can still go a mighty long time and not even SEE another freep or a creep. This becomes even more true during prime time when there's MORE players on...strange but true...the more the more they bunch up. The tighter the "circle" that you can ride around and never see a player gets.[/QUO

Hows that warg coming along?

HUH? When I find a group that "smash the #### out of me"? I'm confused. Like Luc says, saying your solo doesn't mean a whole lot, especially when you're at/around EC where everyone else is. It's like Necksnapper calling out OOC targets. Sure, he's solo alright; but not with a lot of risk. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I mean, I did it from 9-10; but it got boring and didn't really challenge me. Like I said, as a LM, I can pew pew all day long at a bridge and do just fine. But where's the challenge?

Originally Posted by Thane9

I have a monthly stream of TP for my lifetime account and when there's new items that are persistant made available (think stat upgrades typically) that's where they go.

I DESPISE the PvE grind and anything I can do to avoid it is worthwhile.

I got my 1st age from a Box, I played the market on those prior to U6 and opened 14 (went through about 700 gold--the BEST thing about U6 was comm bought pots, now I don't have a 50g a week potion habit to feed) and got lucky.

Likewise. But I hate to spend my 10k TP on Turbine's stupid P2W model. It's gross. To each their own. And honestly, after getting a crystal after 2 days, doesn't seem that bad Plus, have you seen the skirmish leaderboards? I'm an addict.

Originally Posted by Thane9

It's not that small. I can still go a mighty long time and not even SEE another freep or a creep. This becomes even more true during prime time when there's MORE players on...strange but true...the more the more they bunch up. The tighter the "circle" that you can ride around and never see a player gets.

Absolutely.

God speed flipping it red you grouped up creeps; because the sooner the PvE raid babies log, the sooner we can spread out for some high risk open pvp. rawr

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

Thank you, the last thing creeps needed to deal with was an increase in DPS, even 1.1% is significant when refering to overall DPS that is already significantly higher than creeps.

I can assure you that my own audacity handicap and my morale-chasing has me hitting a lot less than most LMs. But ofcourse I have a lot of morale. But I can also assure you a lot of players kick my, what did you call it, ####? all the time. And I love it.

It is extremely competitive at the moment for me right now. And I think Luc agrees. But maybe we're both just utter nubs. But I hope that encourages everyone around TA or in a keep PvEing to explore. Explore, fight! I usually kill myself afterwards and let a lot of greenies kill me.

Originally Posted by Thane9

1> 1st age weapons exist and exceed the dps of a second age with 3 crystals still. So a buff to second ages is not really a buff to dps. It just means they're getting a weak 1st age. The 1st age buff is .8 DPS per crystal...mine seemed to round down to 2.3 at 3 crystals. So it's a little less than .8 each one. This is hardly noticable, and I've killed a LOT of NPCs lately testing it. One more dev or crit in a fight that was a crit or a standard hit, or the proper application of a rend actually makes more difference than those crystals.

2> Scrolls/DP have always existed...so that's not an increase at all.

I really wish people would stop spreading inaccurate information about these things. They really hurt the TRUE analysis of creep/freep power balance. Which, IMHO, does favour freepside generally, with spikes in certain class/builds that are the most problematic.

But when things like 20% increase get thrown around, which are PATENTLY UNTRUE, it just reinforces poor play from the creeps who feel that they've been gimped and cannot match up at all. So we see zerging, and warg packs, and well, you get the picture.

Creeps are better off now than they've historically been by a large margin. Is there work still to be done? Yes. But gameplay should be more dynamic and engaging than ever given the relatively diminished power gap between creeps and freeps.

I'm not entirely sure why you keep going back to the 1st age increase. OF COURSE 2nd AGE BUFF IS IMPORTANT! The change created an increase in DPS for anyone who chose to crystal their stuff. If they had a 2nd age, then that person's dps was increased by xx%. If they had a first age, then xx%. It's an increase to damage that wasn't really needed and contributes to the out of balance issue at hand. Bottom line is freep dps is out of balance with creeps atm, and the healing makes it much more difficult to manage.

I agree and also feel creeps are more balanced than ever, in some ways... With that said i've never had such low survivability the entire time playing pvp after R4. Never!

The issue at hand is that we should be more balanced at this stage due to the # higher ranks roaming around and we are not.

For my BA
-Not enough damage to take down a decent minstrel, not even close. I mean seriously in the past books, run WS vs me in the past and i had a very decent chance of winning that fight.
-Get a firetrap down on a champ...done deal for the most part unless they ran out of LoS...
-Warden...usually np.
-RK, always has been a race in DPS...not really close now Unless i get a major jump on them...partially because of more incoming damage, less outgoing burst in relation to increased moral/armor/aud/etc, and lack of old Uruk heal.
-LM, as long as they stack their debuffs right..i'm dead. Not to say there aren't bad LMs i can stomp into the mud.
-Guard, Capt..depends on spec really.
-Hunter...pretty much the same situation, but skirm stance made it easier to beat the bad ones. No MT up and it's a much easier fight than it used to be because of the poorly turning hunter syndrom (PTHS)

Pre MoM at R9, my BA was OP compared to most freep classes...one of the reasons I quit. That OP'dness made sense, R9 was the highest there was and it should have been scary, it should have been competetive or somewhat OP. It should be like you (Luc) say "A R9 has entered the moors!" type warning.

The stupid R10skill gating thing was a pathetic attempt to balance a vision that went off track.

Also, on the balance issue... started leveling my hunter from 65. All i can say is the average hunters on Landy are not using what they were given properly. Unreal how amazing a hunter is now even at 68 with an old 2nd age. Not saying a decent warg won't nom you more times than not, but wow IMO these hunters spec wrong and skill cycle in very strange ways.

Originally Posted by soccercake7

I can assure you that my own audacity handicap and my morale-chasing has me hitting a lot less than most LMs. But ofcourse I have a lot of morale. But I can also assure you a lot of players kick my, what did you call it, ####? all the time. And I love it.

It is extremely competitive at the moment for me right now. And I think Luc agrees. But maybe we're both just utter nubs. But I hope that encourages everyone around TA or in a keep PvEing to explore. Explore, fight! I usually kill myself afterwards and let a lot of greenies kill me.

I'm sure I'm a nub. I haven't competatively mouse turned in probably 10 years. I have a weird hybrid approach these days and it works for me. Not to mention I dual wield, which against some creep classes is a HUGE disadvantage out there. And I'm giving up 1% off my total damage by sticking with axes because the sword models are kinda meh...

But that's not really the point. The point is no matter how justified creeps are in stating that they're UP, they're no where NEAR as UP as they once were. And back then there was considerably less complaining and even less bad gameplay being utalized with the excuse that they have no choice.

I blame the instant flipping. I blame fight clubbing. I blame a lot of things that encourage people to try and see creeps as freeps. They're two different games. R9 as a creep is NOT equivalent to R9 as a freep. It used to be a FAR greater accomplishment. But now, zerging is zerging. PvE rewards are PvE rewards...creeps accomplishments have been devalued so much that they may as well be freeps. It's a shame really.

Originally Posted by Moofer

I'm not entirely sure why you keep going back to the 1st age increase. OF COURSE 2nd AGE BUFF IS IMPORTANT! The change created an increase in DPS for anyone who chose to crystal their stuff. If they had a 2nd age, then that person's dps was increased by xx%. If they had a first age, then xx%. It's an increase to damage that wasn't really needed and contributes to the out of balance issue at hand. Bottom line is freep dps is out of balance with creeps atm, and the healing makes it much more difficult to manage.

I agree and also feel creeps are more balanced than ever, in some ways... With that said i've never had such low survivability the entire time playing pvp after R4. Never!

The issue at hand is that we should be more balanced at this stage due to the # higher ranks roaming around and we are not.

For my BA
-Not enough damage to take down a decent minstrel, not even close. I mean seriously in the past books, run WS vs me in the past and i had a very decent chance of winning that fight.
-Get a firetrap down on a champ...done deal for the most part unless they ran out of LoS...
-Warden...usually np.
-RK, always has been a race in DPS...not really close now Unless i get a major jump on them...partially because of more incoming damage, less outgoing burst in relation to increased moral/armor/aud/etc, and lack of old Uruk heal.
-LM, as long as they stack their debuffs right..i'm dead. Not to say there aren't bad LMs i can stomp into the mud.
-Guard, Capt..depends on spec really.
-Hunter...pretty much the same situation, but skirm stance made it easier to beat the bad ones. No MT up and it's a much easier fight than it used to be because of the poorly turning hunter syndrom (PTHS)

Pre MoM at R9, my BA was OP compared to most freep classes...one of the reasons I quit. That OP'dness made sense, R9 was the highest there was and it should have been scary, it should have been competetive or somewhat OP. It should be like you (Luc) say "A R9 has entered the moors!" type warning.

The stupid R10skill gating thing was a pathetic attempt to balance a vision that went off track.

Also, on the balance issue... started leveling my hunter from 65. All i can say is the average hunters on Landy are not using what they were given properly. Unreal how amazing a hunter is now even at 68 with an old 2nd age. Not saying a decent warg won't nom you more times than not, but wow IMO these hunters spec wrong and skill cycle in very strange ways.

A 12% buff to someone who was already 15% nerfed is not an increase when examining power level between creeps and freeps.

Would Creepside have exploded with numerous threads about freepside getting this massive dps increase if they just increased the 1st age drops in game? No. In fact, we've seen that cycle happen in the past to very few comments at all.

This "increase" was heralded by creeps as if it were the end of the world. It's not. It's an excessively minor boost to very few players.

--

I agree that there are problematic classes and builds. This, IMHO, stems from the path they started going down way back in Moria when breaking the L50 barrier borked their math. They introduced secondary roles as primary roles and it threw everything into a mess. A mess that has only been exacerbated with additional increases to the viability to these secondary roles.

Beyond that audacity was rolled out without thought to healing classes. It made them VERY powerful. And minstrels + their increased dps role functionality + being freeps + the healing advantage with audacity and yeah...it only makes sense that they'd be tough.

Try fighting a glory, 2H wielding Champ...you'd probably put them in that same class. Similar with a shield spec warden.

The issue is that despite these inequities I do believe there is good, dynamic, and fun fighting to be had in the moors right now. Heck, I had a fun just trying to get away from Eviliz and Plok the other night. They caught me messing around in grothum and I managed to pull them clear through Isen and out the south entrance almost to the frozen river before they got me. Good stuff. My response could have been to form a raid of 24 and sit in TR. But that's insane to me. Although some of our highest ranked players BELIEVE that's what should be done.

/shrug. I guess there are people who get where I'm coming from and those who don't.

Originally Posted by Thane9

I'm sure I'm a nub. I haven't competatively mouse turned in probably 10 years. I have a weird hybrid approach these days and it works for me. Not to mention I dual wield, which against some creep classes is a HUGE disadvantage out there. And I'm giving up 1% off my total damage by sticking with axes because the sword models are kinda meh...

But that's not really the point. The point is no matter how justified creeps are in stating that they're UP, they're no where NEAR as UP as they once were. And back then there was considerably less complaining and even less bad gameplay being utalized with the excuse that they have no choice.

I blame the instant flipping. I blame fight clubbing. I blame a lot of things that encourage people to try and see creeps as freeps. They're two different games. R9 as a creep is NOT equivalent to R9 as a freep. It used to be a FAR greater accomplishment. But now, zerging is zerging. PvE rewards are PvE rewards...creeps accomplishments have been devalued so much that they may as well be freeps. It's a shame really.

Luc. please do not tell me you are saying that a rank achievement for a freep is more meaningful or valuable, because that is just wrong. What is achieved on either side these days with the advent of pay to win is meaningless. Do not try to say that creeps pay for their class and buy all their skills, that we poor freeps had such a time getting done, because I have 6 level 75 freeps, all geared and let me tell you, it was not that hard to do.

Rank in the moors is attained all too easily on each side. With quests, and both sides do the quests, to the nightly zergs renown/infamy pours in as easily for one side as the other with one small caveat. Freeps have more dps and greater healing meaning that they can kill creeps three times faster,. So if one side has the edge in easy ranking, it is not the creeps.

If I misunderstood what you were trying to say, my apologies. But after working my furry behind off to hit rank 12, and seeing no reward other then the fight, you can well understand why I might take umbrage at such a comment.

Originally Posted by Aedon

Luc. please do not tell me you are saying that a rank achievement for a freep is more meaningful or valuable, because that is just wrong. What is achieved on either side these days with the advent of pay to win is meaningless. Do not try to say that creeps pay for their class and buy all their skills, that we poor freeps had such a time getting done, because I have 6 level 75 freeps, all geared and let me tell you, it was not that hard to do.

Rank in the moors is attained all too easily on each side. With quests, and both sides do the quests, to the nightly zergs renown/infamy pours in as easily for one side as the other with one small caveat. Freeps have more dps and greater healing meaning that they can kill creeps three times faster,. So if one side has the edge in easy ranking, it is not the creeps.

If I misunderstood what you were trying to say, my apologies. But after working my furry behind off to hit rank 12, and seeing no reward other then the fight, you can well understand why I might take umbrage at such a comment.

You are clearly misunderstanding. I was saying the exact opposite. Creep ranks have traditionally had CONSIDERABLE more value (harder to achieve AND more rewards) than freep ranks (easier to achieve virtually no rewards)

However that difference has been lessened a LOT with the advent of a lot of things some Turbine controlled some Player controlled.

My point is currently it's hard to give much weight to R0-R4 creep problems when those can last less than a couple days of PvE.

In fact the surge of R9s out there is insane when considering how huge of an achievement that once was. I believe R9 creeps should be VERY powerful...and there was a time when we were getting close to that model...at the height of Uruk heal etc...but with the addition to easier infamy/renown came a removal of that power structure for higher ranked creeps.

It's entirely a huge mess.

With relative ease, a creep at R0 should be able to get to a playable, competative, state in the current environment. Relative being the key term here.

Of course there are still issues. Of course the large majority of those issues are specific build/skill related (particularly freepside). And these SHOULD be addressed.

But I just think it's not as doom and gloom as the gameplay would suggest. Creeps are grouping up to fight as if they're still CRAZY underpowered. But they're not and that's feeding the cycle of freeps feeling the need to be grouped up to combat them.

I'm not here to say which came first, nor does it matter. But the fact is there's a large (and IMHO) growing population of players on BOTH sides that feel that the game is "unfair" unless they're a> in a controlled artificial fight, or b> in the hugest group they can find to counter the believers on the other side in option b.

At some point the vets. The leaders. The people who CARE about this game need to stop the mindset that #s = victory = fun and start getting out there and mixing it up a bit. Creeps AND freeps.

Originally Posted by Thane9

A 12% buff to someone who was already 15% nerfed is not an increase when examining power level between creeps and freeps.

Would Creepside have exploded with numerous threads about freepside getting this massive dps increase if they just increased the 1st age drops in game? No. In fact, we've seen that cycle happen in the past to very few comments at all.

This "increase" was heralded by creeps as if it were the end of the world. It's not. It's an excessively minor boost to very few players.

--

I agree that there are problematic classes and builds. This, IMHO, stems from the path they started going down way back in Moria when breaking the L50 barrier borked their math. They introduced secondary roles as primary roles and it threw everything into a mess. A mess that has only been exacerbated with additional increases to the viability to these secondary roles.

Beyond that audacity was rolled out without thought to healing classes. It made them VERY powerful. And minstrels + their increased dps role functionality + being freeps + the healing advantage with audacity and yeah...it only makes sense that they'd be tough.

Try fighting a glory, 2H wielding Champ...you'd probably put them in that same class. Similar with a shield spec warden.

The issue is that despite these inequities I do believe there is good, dynamic, and fun fighting to be had in the moors right now. Heck, I had a fun just trying to get away from Eviliz and Plok the other night. They caught me messing around in grothum and I managed to pull them clear through Isen and out the south entrance almost to the frozen river before they got me. Good stuff. My response could have been to form a raid of 24 and sit in TR. But that's insane to me. Although some of our highest ranked players BELIEVE that's what should be done.

/shrug. I guess there are people who get where I'm coming from and those who don't.

15% nerfed...lol. 15% less OP than max OP..maybe. Would creeps have freaked out if the change was only to 1st ages, probably not but it's still an uncessary change.

Some people have 1st ages, some don't, who knows some might even have 3rd ages (noobs). We're talking about a change to DPS across the board for all freeps with LIs who crystal them. The increase varies dependant on the age of the LI of course, but if you look at it properly, we are still looking at an increase to potentially ALL damage from freeps by a certain amount. Are 1st ages the only LI's that put a freep into OP Status, no. Therefore, the impact on other aged LIs is pertinent and impacts the overall balance.

It comes down to evaluating whether a 2nd age's damage(non crystal'd) is out of balance, once you aknowledge that it is in most cases, then you can come to terms with the fact that this change (once everyone crystals) increases already OP freep damage by some % overall. In fact if the non crystal'd 2nd age is OP, then a crystal'd 3rd age will be OP.

I hate the term OP, going to change it to OOB (out of balance).

You're not looking at the overall impact. We aren't talking about 1v1s vs greenies at the slug pits, we're talking about the overall situation.

Originally Posted by Moofer

15% nerfed...lol. 15% less OP than max OP..maybe. Would creeps have freaked out if the change was only to 1st ages, probably not but it's still an uncessary change.

Some people have 1st ages, some don't, who knows some might even have 3rd ages (noobs). We're talking about a change to DPS across the board for all freeps with LIs who crystal them. The increase varies dependant on the age of the LI of course, but if you look at it properly, we are still looking at an increase to potentially ALL damage from freeps by a certain amount. Are 1st ages the only LI's that put a freep into OP Status, no. Therefore, the impact on other aged LIs is pertinent and impacts the overall balance.

It comes down to evaluating whether a 2nd age's damage(non crystal'd) is out of balance, once you aknowledge that it is in most cases, then you can come to terms with the fact that this change (once everyone crystals) increases already OP freep damage by some % overall. In fact if the non crystal'd 2nd age is OP, then a crystal'd 3rd age will be OP.

I hate the term OP, going to change it to OOB (out of balance).

You're not looking at the overall impact. We aren't talking about 1v1s vs greenies at the slug pits, we're talking about the overall situation.

I am looking at the overall impact.

No one complained when I got my first age. Nor my second age for that matter. But somehow these crystals which are CONSIDERABLY smaller jumps are being painted as this huge boost. When in fact they're not they're just bringing up those without 1st ages to closer to those with.

Here's the problem I have with that logic.


2 Champs...one is more common than the other...

Jon Jones L75 Champ R3 likes to ask "where's the action" in ooc from GV. He's got himself a poorly spec'd out 2nd age sword.

Luc, a reasonably geared and very well armed with a 1st age Champ, R12 almost 13 and years of /played time inside one zone.

Which one is cited when creeps talk about OP freeps?


Not the guy with the 2nd age.

So what if his DPS is increased? He wasn't the problem in the first place. ONLY the top geared and played players are OP on freepside. With RARE exception. SUPER rare exception.

You shouldn't be able to cite the top tier of freeps (in terms of gear...I very much cringe at the suggestion that I'm the top in terms of skill) when talking about power balance but then cite the increases the average, or even below average geared freeps get to their damage.

It just doesn't work that way.


Now, if we want to do some analysis on the power balance between undergeared freeps and R9 creeps....I think it'd be pretty quickly shown that creeps are even LESS UP than being suggested...and in a lot of cases not UP at ALL.


But that's not what people talk about. They talk about the min/maxed crazy high hits, the top geared players. Those people didn't really get much of a buff.



With few exceptions...obviously SOME classes built SOME ways played by a very FEW excellent players are going to be very powerful regardless. But in general the damage increase was to people who didn't have the damage to start with.

Originally Posted by Thane9

You are clearly misunderstanding. I was saying the exact opposite. Creep ranks have traditionally had CONSIDERABLE more value (harder to achieve AND more rewards) than freep ranks (easier to achieve virtually no rewards)

However that difference has been lessened a LOT with the advent of a lot of things some Turbine controlled some Player controlled.

My point is currently it's hard to give much weight to R0-R4 creep problems when those can last less than a couple days of PvE.

In fact the surge of R9s out there is insane when considering how huge of an achievement that once was. I believe R9 creeps should be VERY powerful...and there was a time when we were getting close to that model...at the height of Uruk heal etc...but with the addition to easier infamy/renown came a removal of that power structure for higher ranked creeps.

It's entirely a huge mess.

With relative ease, a creep at R0 should be able to get to a playable, competative, state in the current environment. Relative being the key term here.

Of course there are still issues. Of course the large majority of those issues are specific build/skill related (particularly freepside). And these SHOULD be addressed.

But I just think it's not as doom and gloom as the gameplay would suggest. Creeps are grouping up to fight as if they're still CRAZY underpowered. But they're not and that's feeding the cycle of freeps feeling the need to be grouped up to combat them.

I'm not here to say which came first, nor does it matter. But the fact is there's a large (and IMHO) growing population of players on BOTH sides that feel that the game is "unfair" unless they're a> in a controlled artificial fight, or b> in the hugest group they can find to counter the believers on the other side in option b.

At some point the vets. The leaders. The people who CARE about this game need to stop the mindset that #s = victory = fun and start getting out there and mixing it up a bit. Creeps AND freeps.

I figured I must have just misunderstood what you were saying. Because let me tell you, I play creep side pretty much full time, and I am well aware of the limits in the things we can and cannot do against such odds. The lack of true balance in Lotro PVP is clear to those willing to see. And the movement freepside towards a nightly map zerg followed by a side flip then a creepside map zerg does nothing to encourage good pvp.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

You know what Fell, I think you really are a bit crazy, cause these are just nonsensical ravings. I have soloed just about 80% of my play time the past two weeks. Even if you dont find the zerg, you find groups that smash the #### out of you.

This map is so friggin small, you can run a relic from one side to the other without speed in about four minutes, if that long. That being part of the complaint, the smaller the zone is the more effective the zergling vinnions are.

When I have a grp of 12 to 14 and the freep raid has 7+ minis including Jayine, and 4 or 5 rks, when you hit that grp with your focus fire, and you are lucky if you get two or three kills before you are decimated, people start to leave. I threw my raid at that biomass everyway i could last night. Then we are out looking for them just to find they are all gone. It's that kind of play that is killing this place and why so many are leaving.

Just so folks know from a Vinion perspective. The Vinnions 1/2 raid consisted of 12 or less throughout the evening, of course Dagr and Jaiyne count as 8 more as we all know. We had a total of 4 or 5 mini's in the group(myself as a minni healing, I suck!). There were a few out of group following us which I think you can relate to Plok. We have been trying to keep the freepnami numbers to a half a raid but dosn't always go as planned. I thought we had fun last night, you guy's wiped us a few times with some pretty good fights! of course when we pushed into TA the balance shifted torward the freeps We all logged at 11:00pm EST. for bedtime.

I think what happens is perception is always skewed here. If Vin pushes a keep with a small group or 1/2 raid the rest of the freeps show up to take part, Same goes for when Plok is leading a small group. They might only have a fellow or half raid but there are always others around that skew the numbers these leaders are actually leading.

...and by the way Bro your groups have attained a nickname as well. The Plockers. It's not near as good as Vinions of course. I know Pouncy that it is your domain to create the names around here but you have neglected your naming duties latley, hehe

Originally Posted by caddy776

Just so folks know from a Vinion perspective. The Vinnions 1/2 raid consisted of 12 or less throughout the evening, of course Dagr and Jaiyne count as 8 more as we all know. We had a total of 4 or 5 mini's in the group(myself as a minni healing, I suck!). There were a few out of group following us which I think you can relate to Plok. We have been trying to keep the freepnami numbers to a half a raid but dosn't always go as planned. I thought we had fun last night, you guy's wiped us a few times with some pretty good fights! of course when we pushed into TA the balance shifted torward the freeps We all logged at 11:00pm EST. for bedtime.

I think what happens is perception is always skewed here. If Vin pushes a keep with a small group or 1/2 raid the rest of the freeps show up to take part, Same goes for when Plok is leading a small group. They might only have a fellow or half raid but there are always others around that skew the numbers these leaders are actually leading.

...and by the way Bro your groups have attained a nickname as well. The Plockers. It's not near as good as Vinions of course. I know Pouncy that it is your domain to create the names around here but you have neglected your naming duties latley, hehe

Do you know how many times a night I have to map to lose these people, its so stupid. Off the top of my head jayine, wilgarr, dagr, senisia, Aronwey, Lavender, ruavea(Sp?), Mauve(SP?) an RK, Adrianokee and thats just off the top of my head. 8 of 12 you say were in the raid. Even if only half are healing and the rest are dropping ######## DPS, there is no point to creeps even coming out.

My favourite part about this thread is the short memories.

Anyone would think that the situation in the moors 3 days ago was basically the way of the moors since launch. People forget about audacity. Audacity REALLY hurt DPS classes. Both freep AND creep. Especially DPS classes with no fall back option like a secondary role or an escape skill or an i-win button (basically, especially hunters). Still, it happened, and we dealt with it. Audacity really helped healing classes (assuming they heal). I didn't complain. It's the cycle of things, the dynamic nature. Good grief, I was bored of PvP in this game in 2008. It's the fact that it keeps changing, the fact that one day one class is OP and the next they're not and someone else is, that some mechanic is exploited one day then nerfed the next, the dynamism, the fact that I need to adapt and figure out a more efficient, better, different way to play to be successful, that makes it interesting.

Only face-rolling, pay-to-win, play-to-not-lose, no effort, no risk, no balls, noob, Gutlard wannabe's, complain about the moors. The hero, legend, epic, hero, awesome, Wulfhram, heroes, just get on with it and pwn face no matter what.

Bottom line, deal with it noobs.

What's this thread about?

EDIT: that's right, I used Wulfhram as an adjective for awesome. You can deal with that too......

Yes, I was actually in the raid that was 2 groups last night. I wasn't healing, although I was tempted to retrait because the people that were healing were dying really, really quickly, as you guys had good FF on them and we had a really squishy group that had a total of 1 heavy armor in it. There was one engagement that I thought was a complete wipe for us, but somehow we rallied and were able to push back (around EC Xroads). You guys got a LOT of kills to start (I believe 10 of our 12). Very fun fight - probably the best from my perspective for time I was out. I do realize there were other freeps around too, which likely allowed for the rally.

I will say this from someone who is often alone on the map. It was nice to have some company. It gets pretty lonely out there b/c there is little to no communication in OOC most of the time and you can go for 45 minutes sometimes and not see another player or opponent, or even know if there is somewhere you can join the fight. I was happy to have people to play alongside since Lee and most of my kinnies aren't playing much Lotro PvP currently as you all know. This was a nice departure from my usual and I appreciated getting an invite for sure. Just FYI, the times I am out there, I don't even see open freep raids anymore. I think it's probably fairly tough for new freeps to get a foothold, in addition to new creeps - as there are few open groups.

I'm sorry that it doesn't seem to have been as fun for the creeps. though. I thought you guys had some very pro healing last night, btw.

Originally Posted by caddy776

Just so folks know from a Vinion perspective. The Vinnions 1/2 raid consisted of 12 or less throughout the evening, of course Dagr and Jaiyne count as 8 more as we all know. We had a total of 4 or 5 mini's in the group(myself as a minni healing, I suck!). There were a few out of group following us which I think you can relate to Plok. We have been trying to keep the freepnami numbers to a half a raid but dosn't always go as planned. I thought we had fun last night, you guy's wiped us a few times with some pretty good fights! of course when we pushed into TA the balance shifted torward the freeps We all logged at 11:00pm EST. for bedtime.

I think what happens is perception is always skewed here. If Vin pushes a keep with a small group or 1/2 raid the rest of the freeps show up to take part, Same goes for when Plok is leading a small group. They might only have a fellow or half raid but there are always others around that skew the numbers these leaders are actually leading.

...and by the way Bro your groups have attained a nickname as well. The Plockers. It's not near as good as Vinions of course. I know Pouncy that it is your domain to create the names around here but you have neglected your naming duties latley, hehe

heheheh you called yourself a Vinions....I know I am slowing down on my naming, but I have been so over worked.

Don't roll an easy mode warg Luc. Jump on a BA.

Gut Out!

Originally Posted by caddy776

Just so folks know from a Vinion perspective. The Vinnions 1/2 raid consisted of 12 or less throughout the evening, of course Dagr and Jaiyne count as 8 more as we all know. We had a total of 4 or 5 mini's in the group(myself as a minni healing, I suck!). There were a few out of group following us which I think you can relate to Plok. We have been trying to keep the freepnami numbers to a half a raid but dosn't always go as planned. I thought we had fun last night, you guy's wiped us a few times with some pretty good fights! of course when we pushed into TA the balance shifted torward the freeps We all logged at 11:00pm EST. for bedtime.

I think what happens is perception is always skewed here. If Vin pushes a keep with a small group or 1/2 raid the rest of the freeps show up to take part, Same goes for when Plok is leading a small group. They might only have a fellow or half raid but there are always others around that skew the numbers these leaders are actually leading.

...and by the way Bro your groups have attained a nickname as well. The Plockers. It's not near as good as Vinions of course. I know Pouncy that it is your domain to create the names around here but you have neglected your naming duties latley, hehe

Might I recommend Ploktologists?

Originally Posted by Cauldronborn

Might I recommend Ploktologists?

Hmmm..Ploktologists...I like that one!

...and by the way Bro your groups have attained a nickname as well. The Plockers. It's not near as good as Vinions of course. I know Pouncy that it is your domain to create the names around here but you have neglected your naming duties latley, hehe[/QUOTE]

OMG...I don't know how I missed that one! Perfect..I love it...THE PLOKERS~

hehe funny thread, on a side note Plok can live without raids, but vinny =P I seen vinny solo one time for last 6 months =)

What does it matter if a player can or cant solo??

This is an MMO. Massive MULTIPLAYER On-line.

I can solo. Not very well........But, most of the time I dont. I get sick of running around all alone for hours at a time in the small hope I might find a solo creep that will fight me.

I have alot more fun in a group. People to talk to, joke with and I dont die in 2.3 seconds as often.

Dont know why Im saying anything.....it wont make a difference and I doubt anyne cares.

Besides I wont be out there much for a good while now. D3 is awesome.