Thread: 5 Blue; What's the point?

It seems to me that going 5 blue is rather pointless. I'm not even entirely sure what real job blue line services. It's 1/3 sub par healing, 1/3 animal related, and 1/3 essential CC, like Dunadan-Learning. In raids, 5 yellow is simply the way to go. To an extent as well, but mostly for solo, Red is hard to walk outside without, considering the substantial DPS drop leaving it entails.

Going deep into blue just doesn't really have any positives, at least from where I stand. As I said, some of the CC traits are good, and I almost always have at least two 2 blue, regardless of whether I slot 5 red or 5 yellow. But then, I find myself looking at utterly superfluous traits like Hardy Companion. Who on earth actually slots that in? Of course, we also have those couple of "meh" healing traits I eluded to earlier, which of course, only become worthwhile with heavy spending into a couple LI legacies, which in the long run, is not worth it.

All in all, I really see no point in going deep into blue. Blue, in my humble opinion, needs to become a stronger avenue for healing and pet usage, whilst shifting around the current CC skills into yellow. Yellow and red could also use some worthwhile swaps, but that's besides the point.

What say you, fellow Lore Masters? Rework the blue line, or keep it as is?

I guess the quick answer is the bonus you get from slotting ANY 5 of the 3 main lines.
Not in game but for example, slotting 5 Red gets you the Sticky Tar bonus, Slotting 5 Blue gets you the (Bog Lurker, correct?) bonus. May not be exactly right but that's the idea I believe.

You're basically right, the trait line is all over the place and not worth traiting deeply into. imo the only genuine optimal use of the blue traitline is soloing tough content, particularly older group content. The bog lurker is the superior pet tank because it has a high flank rate, which for tough content is necessary for healing output, and is much more survivable than the other high-flank pets (eagle, raven). Sadly, even in a small group solo-healing role you're better off using 5-yellow/2-blue because the damage reduction from permanent debuffs outweighs the marginal extra healing you get from blue traits/bog-guardian FMs.

Also why do you like dunedain learning so much? I don't think it's ever a really good trait to use, you're much better off choosing from healer/light of hope/improved flanking if you're using two blue. It's very rare that you need to keep SI up on more than two people (if you do, your group is probably doing something wrong like not potting diseases) and you certainly don't need dunedain learning to do that.

There is no point

Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ

Also why do you like dunedain learning so much? I don't think it's ever a really good trait to use, you're much better off choosing from healer/light of hope/improved flanking if you're using two blue. It's very rare that you need to keep SI up on more than two people (if you do, your group is probably doing something wrong like not potting diseases) and you certainly don't need dunedain learning to do that.

First boss in Roots of Fangorn comes instantly to mind, followed tightly by Rung + Blagh in Dar Narbugud. You can do these without it, but it's like rowing a canoe across the ocean. Dunedain Learning is like an all-included cruise. Now that wound/disease removal is insta-cast, you don't really need Healer any more, and Dunedain Learning can be handier. Besides, if your group is doing it wrong (eg not potting those diseases), YOU can still be the hero that saved the day with your extra SI. At least, that's why *I* pick Dunedain Learning over Healer. YMMV

Agrre with OP that Blue is probably least used, not worthless exactly but grouping yellow is king, solo/PvMP the red is the way. On previous posts though I love Dunedain learning, coupled with legacy you got 1.5 minutes to work an entire group into an SI rotation while still having plenty of time to do the essential other stuff. LMs who can do this are highly appreciated in my experience particularly in instances where stuns are willy nilly all over, like final boss of foundry etc.

Dunedain learning..don't leave home without it (although obviously where fights don't stun it's not required)

With due respect to those who have posted, if you do not see the point of something - especially not at all - you're probably missing something. I've done this myself, thinking that a skill or pet was so weak there was no point in using it. It always depends on the circumstances. I ran 5 blue for awhile, loving the flanks of the Lurker, keeping him healed, healing myself, controlling the fight through my pet (who I could summon during battle if he fell). It's a different way of playing and generally slower but well-suited for circumstances highlighted by Isharra and PsychobabbleJJ.

It might seem like a mishmash of skills, but it's actually coherent. It is a CC style of playing via pet. Healing skills, pet skills, CC skills all go toward that end. I'm not saying it couldn't be improved (for instance, I also find Dunadan Learning underwhelming).

Originally Posted by Crispian

With due respect to those who have posted, if you do not see the point of something - especially not at all - you're probably missing something. I've done this myself, thinking that a skill or pet was so weak there was no point in using it. It always depends on the circumstances. I ran 5 blue for awhile, loving the flanks of the Lurker, keeping him healed, healing myself, controlling the fight through my pet (who I could summon during battle if he fell). It's a different way of playing and generally slower but well-suited for circumstances highlighted by Isharra and PsychobabbleJJ.

It might seem like a mishmash of skills, but it's actually coherent. It is a CC style of playing via pet. Healing skills, pet skills, CC skills all go toward that end. I'm not saying it couldn't be improved (for instance, I also find Dunadan Learning underwhelming).

It still doesn't seem as effective. Sure, it can be fun, and that's of course important, but blowing things up with red line or constant CC with yellow seriously dominates blue line. Before Turbine added healing into blue, I was jumping around with joy, because I was thinking we'd be more captain like, but that really didn't come true. LM healing usually isn't enough for 3-mans and is superfluous in 6 mans with a Healer+Capt/Burg.

Some more food for thought...

Dunedain Learning vs Healer....
Healer >>>>>> Dunedain Learning. Maybe Dunedain Learning is useful in the moores.. never been there.

Dunedain learning can easily replaced by Sign of Power duration legacy on the book. 1 min duration is more than enough.
Healer fastens share the power and decreases its powercost by 15% + the 10% healing to BoH WoC aren't bad either and can't be replaced by a simple legacy.

I like blue... but only the 3 already mentioned traits. Healer, imp. Flanking, Light of Hope.
The rest.... it's good for soloing old groupcontent, yes.

I think blue line lost its way pretty much, becoming a mish mash of pet traits and healing traits and not really being one or the other. I think this is by and large with the rise of the small fellowship content and trying to give loremasters the choice of DPS or Healing role (there being little room for a support in a group so small).

I *never* use extensive blue line, though I often use 2 blues with the other traitlines, or even up to 3 in a hybrid build. I see no point in bog lurker - the ranged attacks are of limited value and you get, In my opinion, just as many flank effects from the eagle, which will also interrupt for you and drop a nifty in combat rez if you need it.

The problem Turbine have got with the situation is that really Loremasters need 4 traitlines, to specialise in healing or pets, but not both. In truth, the whole pet situation is suffering at the moment. Pets need to be brought into the modern age, with their usefulness reflecting that they too have levelled to 75 - Their DPS is just awful. Captains seem to be much the same. When was the last time you saw a herald in a raid, rather than a banner?

Originally Posted by hisoka-thorongil

What say you, fellow Lore Masters? Rework the blue line, or keep it as is?

Blue is fine, makes LM soloing probably the easiest class to level in the game.

No, it's has little purpose in grouping and none I can think of in raids, but that doesn't make it worthless at all.

The Bog Lurker is hugely useful, especially when it comes to land rushes which happen with new content .. an instant long-ranged attack to claim quest target mobs while most other classes are running to it or trying to get a spell off.

It all depends on playstyle and preference, for me the glowy orb is utterly worthless, I never use it because I never main heal in a group, an LM is SUPPORT and I trait for SUPPORT when in a group, there are too many 'must have' traits needed in that context to spare for the 'orb'.

Originally Posted by Kraggy_Eldar

The Bog Lurker is hugely useful, especially when it comes to land rushes which happen with new content .. an instant long-ranged attack to claim quest target mobs while most other classes are running to it or trying to get a spell off.

HAHAH! This really gave me a chuckle. Luckily I usually duo with a friend whose main is a hunter when running into new content, but sure - you've found a use for the BL I can't argue with. *still amused*

Originally Posted by Tromador

HAHAH! This really gave me a chuckle. Luckily I usually duo with a friend whose main is a hunter when running into new content, but sure - you've found a use for the BL I can't argue with. *still amused*

I would hasten to add that usually I would try to group with others who are after the same mob as me, but if they choose to play the 'compete for claim' game. Fred (my Lurker) is more than up to it.

Originally Posted by Tatharil

Dunedain learning can easily replaced by Sign of Power duration legacy on the book. 1 min duration is more than enough.

It isn't the duration I enjoy, so much as the speed. The duration is nice too, though... The shorter cooldown means I can use it to keep 12 people SI (takes ~36 seconds) and still have nearly a whole minute to do whatever *I* want to do. Also, you cannot forget that it also removes silencing effects, so having a shortened cooldown means your mini is now speechless for less time.


As for 5 blues... I found it nice to be able to summon my pet in combat when I was trying 5 blues, and the bog lurker is an interesting pet. I know several LMs who love love love traiting lots of blue, and I'll confess to having done this when slated to heal 3-mans, but like others have said, 5 reds is more fun (for me) and 5 yellows for the capstone is pretty nice in raids. I typically run 5 yellows + DL + PAAI. I'll swap in Healer for DL if it's a power hungry fight with no stuns.

Originally Posted by Kraggy_Eldar

Blue is fine, makes LM soloing probably the easiest class to level in the game.

What advantages can Blue offer me vs Red ( BE+CE+Stun ) + Eagle ?

Even if there are a couple of useful blue traits , blue as a whole is not worth it .

I can see both sides of the issue, here are my thoughts on the blue line.

Yes, it does not provide as much DPS as Red, or Group utility as Yellow, what it does provide is solo survivability. Traited 5b, your pet (lurker, eagle, what have you) is on par with shard droppers, you have access to your full CC suite (no reduced blinding flash, my one dislike of MoNF) and upgraded healing to keep yourself and your pet up. So instead of having to pop Call to the Valar for roots, you can stun one or two, let your pet take several more, and take one on yourself. All the while keeping yourself and your pet up through flank heals and BoH.

only point for a blue trait is in raid with 2 lore master where you need 2 cc .. debuff don't stack and you can help a bit on healing later on boss it's useless and you can come back to dps else can help a bit with flank and healing if needed but tbh i think the point is simply 2 lore master are useless in raid atm

Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ

imo the only genuine optimal use of the blue traitline is soloing tough content, particularly older group content.

^^^^
I agree with this. And if you like solo challenges it is nice to have the 5 blue option.

I had suggested awhile back that there should be a capstone pet that could truly tank. Then the deep blue LM/pet combo could serve the tanking role in 3-man or maybe some 6-man content.

Honestly, the trait line makes sense to me: it buffs the pet and gives the LM better ability to keep the pet alive.

The problem is, as it is now, the pets are way too weak, even buffed, for this style to be worthwhile, except in the very limited way mentioned above.

Originally Posted by Guiwinner

tbh i think the point is simply 2 lore master are useless in raid atm

Tish and Pish Sir. Tish and Pish. We invariably take 2 LMs to ToO:-)

I'm sure its been said before, blue line is basically what LMs were before traitlines were invented and builds became so specific. They have a little bit of everything and emphasis how dependant on your pet you used to be, and remind you just how good it can be if you build for it, with pet food and legacies as appropriate. But its not quite there and does need some attention. If rather more of the pet based traits were clumped up and added into the BG summon legendary, in the way that the yellow capstone boosts everything under it, that would free up a couple of slots which would then allow more build flexibility. Main healer on 3 mans is quite possible, you need improved flanking and to swap the air lore target around plus be prepared to summon the spirit which is an excellent support pet and is regularly requested for some content because it takes a little load off the healers and simplifies power management in longer fights, or so I have found. Your experience may well differ.

Blue has it's niche for me. I usually go get it when faced with a boss impossible to break with my standard eagle solo setup. Makes the last boss in SCF and the Isengard trolls pretty easy.

Once I tried using the red traits, but didn't care for it. I really hate "kiting" mobs in any game. It probably is personal preference though. I prefer traiting blue, with a stronger pet and melee alongside them.

I might try the red traits again some time.

Originally Posted by hisoka-thorongil

But then, I find myself looking at utterly superfluous traits like Hardy Companion. Who on earth actually slots that in?

Low level LM's who don't have any other traits yet.

Originally Posted by Moejo

Low level LM's who don't have any other traits yet.

I guess so.

I must admit I don't understand the love for the yellow line. Aside from quick stuns, I've never been with a group where debuffs and CC were that important. The tradeoff of DPS from red line only seems to lessen its desirability. I see how it could be useful, but I've never been with a group that cared.

Originally Posted by Crispian

I must admit I don't understand the love for the yellow line. Aside from quick stuns, I've never been with a group where debuffs and CC were that important. The tradeoff of DPS from red line only seems to lessen its desirability. I see how it could be useful, but I've never been with a group that cared.

The yellow trait line is certainly overkill for small group content (3 and 6 person) and is completely unnecessary in raid skirmishes or draigoch. But from my experience, regular raid content (ToO atm) is pretty much based around an assumption that boss mobs are debuffed with lore-master debuffs at all times. There's a number of fights where I'll notice if I've forgotten to refresh a debuff simply because the tank starts dying quicker than the healer can keep up. Full uptime for especially the three main lore debuffs goes a long way to keeping a group alive, particularly if you're new to the fight and the healer is having to heal up errors from people making mistakes. When your group is learning a fight, a yellow line lore-master is an invaluable asset.

And as for cc, it's similarly unnecessary in most small group content but is highly important for getting through raid trash and some raid boss fights alive.

Only time I ever traited deep into blue was growing up, after Moria, I stopped, because it was more of a hinderance, than a help.

Originally Posted by PsychobabbleJJ

The yellow trait line is certainly overkill for small group content (3 and 6 person) and is completely unnecessary in raid skirmishes or draigoch. But from my experience, regular raid content (ToO atm) is pretty much based around an assumption that boss mobs are debuffed with lore-master debuffs at all times. There's a number of fights where I'll notice if I've forgotten to refresh a debuff simply because the tank starts dying quicker than the healer can keep up. Full uptime for especially the three main lore debuffs goes a long way to keeping a group alive, particularly if you're new to the fight and the healer is having to heal up errors from people making mistakes. When your group is learning a fight, a yellow line lore-master is an invaluable asset.

And as for cc, it's similarly unnecessary in most small group content but is highly important for getting through raid trash and some raid boss fights alive.

I've honestly never encountered a group that cared. They needed an extra dps or they needed me to keep somebody stunned or needed corruption removal or SI. I'm not a regular raider but the debuff abilities are not requested when I've run various ToOs. Perhaps it's that many don't fully appreciate those skills. As a result I've not cared to trait yellow and certainly not for solo content. Thus I throw out debuffs casually while traited mostly red, and a mix of blue/yellow. The hassle of retraiting also encourages me to stay in this configuration. For fun I'll go all yellow sometime, even if nobody appreciates it.

I have used blue line many times to do skirmishes. Red line lacks the cc necessary to handle some of the big pulls in some skirmishes, at least in my experience. I can do skirmishes as red, but blue is much easier. Bog Guardian flanks like crazy and holds aggro very well. The healing traits make it so I never worry about him dying. Could blue use a buff? Sure it could. It is the weakest and surely least-played trait line for LM. That doesn't mean that it isn't capable of doing what it is meant to do: provide a fairly decent tank for those that wish to play that way. I use red line for landscape play, but if I am going to do some hard solo skirmishes, then I will go blue.

Originally Posted by Kraggy_Eldar

The Bog Lurker is hugely useful, especially when it comes to land rushes which happen with new content .. an instant long-ranged attack to claim quest target mobs while most other classes are running to it or trying to get a spell off.

Or you could just cast Wizard's Fire - instacast and cast on the run.

I used to be 5 blue with lurker, but found it too much of a pain to force the bog lurker into melee range for flanks in instances. Having switched to eagle, there was no need to trait so far into blue. I was 4 blue, 3 red for a while, but now I have gone 5 yellow + master of staff + improved flanking.

This works fine in (almost) all PvE content, including soloing. I now find encounters in T2 solo skirmishes easier than with any other set-up - I can now tank them without having to run around kiting them for the second half of the fight.

Ive been playing a lm for about a year and a half now since I started lotro and tbh after end game Ive never used the eagle or blue trait line for any end game stuff I always have my Si and Sd traited with either reds or yellow's but tbh Raiding ToO t2 always run with yellow's for trash n red's for boss RoF foundry reds through the whole thing tbh Only thing I could possibly think blue's useful for is if you wanted to trait down that line I have a friend lm where he got the blue line pvp set and traited blue's and he did heal while we did some 3 mans and flipped the moors map with another but in all honestly blue line just bother's me as much as having to waste eagle as a legendary trait spot :/ just my opinion tho

Originally Posted by Crispian

I've honestly never encountered a group that cared. They needed an extra dps or they needed me to keep somebody stunned or needed corruption removal or SI. I'm not a regular raider but the debuff abilities are not requested when I've run various ToOs. Perhaps it's that many don't fully appreciate those skills. As a result I've not cared to trait yellow and certainly not for solo content. Thus I throw out debuffs casually while traited mostly red, and a mix of blue/yellow. The hassle of retraiting also encourages me to stay in this configuration. For fun I'll go all yellow sometime, even if nobody appreciates it.

Well, people shouldn't be requesting debuffs. It's like asking minis to heal and hunters to pew pew.

I agree that debuffs are unappreciated, but don't let ignorant players dissuade you from your contributions.

Regarding dps, Rast and I are of the opinion that AM contributes more to group-dps than MoNF (for boss fights). Here, I want to emphasize group-dps, not personal-dps. We have no empirical data to support this claim, but if you add up all the little ways a LM contributes to the group, it seems plausible.

Back to the original post, I echo the utility of KoA for hard solo and 3-person content (although I'm more apt to go AM for the lattter). Nonetheless, KoA could use some improvement, for sure.

Originally Posted by hisoka-thorongil

5 Blue; What's the point?

There is no point. Honestly, there's no reason to trait more than 3, or occasionally very perhaps 4 blues. They really should rework this trait line.

Okay, that was perhaps a bit too short of an answer. As has been sad, the lurker is nice for soloing old tough content. For the rest, it's nice for people who like the playstyle for sentimental reasons, much like burglar gamblers. It can be fun, but it's suboptimal in any end-game content.

I really wish they'd finally do something about this.

All classes have a traitline that is the least useful even useless and I don't think it can work otherwise. Classes have 1-2 roles and having a 3rd traitline supporting a 3rd role then there is a problem with class variety.

Originally Posted by Despotis

All classes have a traitline that is the least useful even useless and I don't think it can work otherwise. Classes have 1-2 roles and having a 3rd traitline supporting a 3rd role then there is a problem with class variety.

This problem doesn't seem hard to fix, at least to me.

Red: DPS/Nukage

Blue: Pet Usage/Healing

Yellow: CC/Debuffs

I half feel like why red line is so popular/overused is because the sheer amount of increased DPS it gives. If Lore Masters had more base DPS, and red line was reduced a bit, the blue and yellow lines would be far more valuable across all situations.

I have always thought of the blue line as a bit of a top up.

So i either spec in 5 red...take a little something from blue. Or i spec 5 in yellow and take a little something from blue. Blue line has some handy traits in there, just overall i don't think it is as powerful or as useful as red or yellow (when you spec all the way in). I have tried the lurker pet, sure he flanks quite a bit but..meh the dmg is just the same as the other pets really.

I do appreciate, for solo the blue line can be a safe bet with all the pet buffs and extra sustain. Though i never solo really, therefore it is not that useful to me.

I have a friend who loves to trait in blue and he has adjusted his way of playing to fit in with groups/solo. Sure his damage is no where near the same as a red trait line and the debuffs might not be as improved as yellow, though he does bring the benefits of stronger heals and a stronger helping hand (pet) which can count for a lot when you do 3 man instances. If you got a good enough tank you may not even need a proper healer at all for them.

Blue line is simply bad, end of.

Originally Posted by hisoka-thorongil

and red line was reduced a bit

:lol:

I think the lore master is the lowest dps class of the moment, or can be like a guardian on single target, warden atm can do more damage for sure :P

The point it's easy, lore amster debuff are unic and you need a debuffer no way, lore master never can be an healer because he need to debuff else every healer will be better than a lore master.
For sure need an upgrade on healing like innerflame still too much low and with hot on become can become a good point for healing some skirmish or 3 man

Originally Posted by Guiwinner

:lol:

I think the lore master is the lowest dps class of the moment, or can be like a guardian on single target, warden atm can do more damage for sure :P

The point it's easy, lore amster debuff are unic and you need a debuffer no way, lore master never can be an healer because he need to debuff else every healer will be better than a lore master.
For sure need an upgrade on healing like innerflame still too much low and with hot on become can become a good point for healing some skirmish or 3 man

I meant that LM's base damage would increase, and red line bonuses would decrease, which would keep overall dps the same, not reduced. As for LM's having the lowest dps in the game; sustained? maybe; AOE/Spike dps? No, sir, try again.

Originally Posted by Guiwinner

I think the lore master is the lowest dps class of the moment, or can be like a guardian on single target, warden atm can do more damage for sure :P

Red line, our single target dps has the potentially to outclass other non-dps oriented classes. AoE wise, we're awesome. No complaints here.

As to the question of blue line, it's pretty much useless atm. Some people swear by it for soloing purposes, but honestly, that's a load of rubbish. If you really need something to tank for you while your leveling in this game, it's not the class that's the issue. Red line will allow you to burn through stuff significantly faster and more efficiently. No point in wasting time with a toad/AT-AT cross over.

There was a brief time when it was practical. Back when the OD set made pet flank effects aoe, lm's were extremely viable off healers in blue line. It still wasn't exactly the most efficient use of our class, but if you're running two lm's in certain boss fights, it wasn't a bad idea. Gorth t2 comes to mind as one where I would trait blue while another lm went yellow. Honestly, I haven't traited it since then and probably won't again until they give us a comparable set bonus or upgrade the line in a similar manner. I'm just a little bitter that I didn't complete the set until a month or so before RoI, but iirc, the was true in a lot of lm's' cases. The OD set just took too long to complete to really be able to have widespread enjoyment of a cool set bonus.

no question - KoA is an awkward mix of pet improvement and heals. While most other classes have stances that suit their three trait lines, LMs don't, and I suspect it's primarily because of this dual purpose of KoA.

Regardless, I have enjoyed playing a lot of content, both solo and group, with blue line capstone, complimented with yellow.

I love the lurker. In groups she can sit back with me out of trouble, dealing out big damage and flanking all the time. Yet she's resilient enough to take on mobs herself if need be - if she goes down I can resummon her (no one has mentioned this, and it's sometimes key!). I focus improved flank, on either the healer or the main off-tank. the flanks come so often, the healer should never have to worry about healing my improved flank target. the tendancy is to put it on the tank, but the healer should already be focused on the tank so I put it elsewhere. with improved beacon of hope, we can throw out a pretty big heal every 20 seconds. LMs blue traited should be able to heal most 3-man content (tier I), yet still have a lot of cc skills and decent damage - you just have to accept that more of the damage comes from your pet.

I tend to solo red more than blue because you can certainly get through things quicker and the eagle rez is nice when out on your own, but I handle tough content better in blue. From a personal enjoyment perspective, one thing that is appealing about the blue line vs red is that I tend to use all my skills rather than focus on the damage dealers.