I've been reading a lot of suggestions and other comments by players and I know how much time people will pour into this game through plugins and other game elements.
I have also read how programmers are busy and it occurred to me that maybe there would be players who know enough about programing or would learn programing so they could program game elements they wanted to see in the game. Volunteers could submit detailed explanations of their ideas (see: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...evamp-Proposal ) which could be reviewed by turbine and then given a thumbs up or not. The volunteer(s) would be signed-up and sign contracts and stuff with turbine and then get just enough detailed programing info that they could make there idea a reality. Upon completion they could submit it to the official programers who could test it, fix bugs, or identify any other problems the volunteers could work on.
Obviously they would have to write the program in a way that would fit with the game and stuff like that but I'm curious to know if this kind of thing would even be possible. If turbine wanted something done but didn't have the time for it but a volunteer was willing this seems like a win-win situation. How many college programming students might take something on for their favorite game as an assignment for school or overly zealous players would be willing to put time into seeing their idea become a reality.
As the increased game elements begin rolling in and market share of LOTRO increases and Turbine needs more paid programmers they would also have a good pool of potential employees.
Just wondering if there was some way we could get people just complaining about the problems to become part of the solution.
I think it would have to be someone that is not part of the forum community. There are just too many keyboard commandos here that think they know about programming and have no clue what it's like to work on a project as massive as an MMO. I sure don't.
Also, when you have a full time employee working on the project they will have to keep confidential information to themselves or risk losing their job. A disgruntled volunteer just might start making blogs somewhere talking about how messed up Turbine is or how he doesn't get enough recognition and so on.
I see more problems made than solved.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
Civ II rules after all these years......
Just wondering if there was some way we could get people just complaining about the problems to become part of the solution.
Many of the complaints are not due to the lack of some specific feature, but due to features that do not work properly or have been removed from the game.
I've been a software engineer for about 25 years. Sorry, but this idea just isn't practical.
A new developer on a team typically isn't productive for many months. They actually take time away from the current development staff, as they learn what they need to know. It's a big investment to hire someone and train them.
If the software was completely open-source, then a community of developers could indeed make valuable contributions. But it's not, and it won't be.
The only easy way "fans" can contribute is by helping to test.
It might be possible to use outside help for some of the art (concept art, icons, mount skins, and stuff like that). But that involves a bunch of work on Turbine's part. They can't just take art someone claimed to develop, and use it in the game. Look at the rules and how long it took for the player-designed mounts to be used in the game.
I think it would have to be someone that is not part of the forum community. There are just too many keyboard commandos here that think they know about programming and have no clue what it's like to work on a project as massive as an MMO. I sure don't.
Also, when you have a full time employee working on the project they will have to keep confidential information to themselves or risk losing their job. A disgruntled volunteer just might start making blogs somewhere talking about how messed up Turbine is or how he doesn't get enough recognition and so on.
I see more problems made than solved.
If such an idea where to be implemented, I am sure that the programmers would have to sign a non-disclosure agreement that would probably beggar them if they broke it. Of course there could be an irrational programmer out there who wouldn't care, but frankly, knowing the way a good programmer has to think (programming is a logical process) that would be kind of a paradox but anything is possible. However I am also sure that Turbine would thoroughly vet anyone for such a position and the odds would be even smaller. The only thing I could see would be if a hacker snuck in, they could possibly make things hot and wouldn't care about consequences.
"I have my fears, but they do not have me." ... "And the monster I was so afraid of, lies curled up on the floor."
-Peter Gabriel- "Darkness"
Ignorance is bestowed on us at birth, but we don't have to keep it.
-Lorin Fast- "Random ramblings"
If such an idea where to be implemented, I am sure that the programmers would have to sign a non-disclosure agreement that would probably beggar them if they broke it.
Just about any programmer competent enough to work on an established MMO of this size would not be likely to volunteer their time just to see one feature put in the game. In all likelihood, the only applicants would be people who have barely moved beyond "Hello World". If Turbine takes them on and gives them the training they need to tackle a project this complex, that's dev time lost that could be put toward other things. Once the project is done, the volunteer would be dropped, another would come on board, and even more dev time would be lost training the new volunteer.
Of course there could be an irrational programmer out there who wouldn't care, but frankly, knowing the way a good programmer has to think (programming is a logical process) that would be kind of a paradox but anything is possible.
Corporate espionage is already a thriving industry, and that's without software companies opening up their source code to hundreds of random people who may or may not have provided a false identity. Given how many volunteers would be viewing the same code, it's not like Turbine could easily track the leak back to the individual. And even if they could track down the leak, how could they say for certain that the volunteer didn't sign up using a stolen identity?For the amount of work they would have to put in to managing the volunteers, and with all the risks associated with pushing the code over unsecured networks, to unsecured computers, to be edited by largely unknown people, it seems simpler and cheaper to just hire someone competent and be done with it.
Last edited by StavroMuellerBeta; May 16 2012 at 12:43 PM.
If such an idea where to be implemented, I am sure that the programmers would have to sign a non-disclosure agreement that would probably beggar them if they broke it. Of course there could be an irrational programmer out there who wouldn't care, but frankly, knowing the way a good programmer has to think (programming is a logical process) that would be kind of a paradox but anything is possible. However I am also sure that Turbine would thoroughly vet anyone for such a position and the odds would be even smaller. The only thing I could see would be if a hacker snuck in, they could possibly make things hot and wouldn't care about consequences.
It would be a near certainty. There was a case in San Francisco within the last couple of years. It actually involved a SysAdmin, but the principle is the same. He changed a set of server & network passwords and left and refused to divulge them. A criminal case ensued.
Then there is the case of the fellow who developed one of the major Linux file systems and is no in prison as a convicted murderer.
Mere money crimes like breaking an NDA. Trivial by comparison.
Which is sort of what I thought before the OP (original Post).
In my experience using volunteers is always more time involved that you would think.
I wasn't necessarily thinking of complex game dynamics but simple things (maybe like the kin revamp) that would be more self contained. As far as someone not being productive for many months and eating up training time this wouldn't necessarily be the case if they just gave them the program constraints and said "Good Luck, let us know when it is done."
just a novel idea that wouldn't work is all. Thanks for the responses everyone.
Which is sort of what I thought before the OP (original Post).
In my experience using volunteers is always more time involved that you would think.
I wasn't necessarily thinking of complex game dynamics but simple things (maybe like the kin revamp) that would be more self contained. As far as someone not being productive for many months and eating up training time this wouldn't necessarily be the case if they just gave them the program constraints and said "Good Luck, let us know when it is done."
just a novel idea that wouldn't work is all. Thanks for the responses everyone.
It's even simpler than that....there's no way they will release any of their code to a non employee and you would have to know at least parts of it to be able to create anything usable.
Last edited by Unique; May 16 2012 at 02:10 PM.
Reason: found the word "that" had escaped, caught it and put it in it's place
It's even simpler than....there's no way they will release any of their code to a non employee and you would have to know at least parts of it to be able to create anything usable.
Brava, Missy. Note also that the Turbine engine was written in-house by Turbine when it was working out of somebody's Boston apartment (the software equivalent of Hewlett and Packard building hardware in a garage), and any volunteer programmer, like any actual new hire, would have to learn the ins and outs of that engine pretty much from scratch before he could work with it.
Even without that, there would be legal issues. Asheron's Call used to have volunteer Admins; they all got fired in AC's second year because the lawyers freaked out over a problem AOL had had which was its own damn fault; but the vocation of a lawyer is to go around Robin Hood's Barn in order to avoid the slightest possibility of a lawsuit.
As Beleg said, the way for us to help is to test.
I think I shall apply to join Palantir. (If they're accepting applications at the moment.) I'm not an ueber-experienced player, but I have some free time, and maybe I can catch some bug that wouldn't bother the ueber-experienced players but would stab a wimpy LM or Minstrel in the back.
With my past experience as a staff (lead story plotter) in an online RPG game (and ordinary plotter in another), I'd say no to the idea.
The major problem we faced in the two games I staffed was burnout (plus all the usual of staff abusing their powers, favouring their friends, creating non-lore content etc).
What happens is:
- Dedicated and loyal player, who's really contributing to the RPG as a player, feels she/he can contribute more to the game as a staff. He/She has already achieved a lot in the game (it's achievers who usually apply) and already has prestige/power/skills/possessions etc in the game world
- Application is sent (evaluated, approved etc) and the player becomes staff.
- The first couple of months is often used as a test phase; learning the systems, how things works behind the scenes, the policies etc. Some good trainee projects come out, the player has loads of energy and invests a lot into being staff. Due to lack of skills/knowledge, the contributions are relatively small, but the passion is there.
- Once the player is familiar with the system and has learned what there is to learn, there's a period of good productivity and creation. It can be a couple of months, even a year or more.
- Then the burnout begins to happen. The player sees all the #### that staff has to deal with; players complaining, ideas that are shelved or can't be implemented, limitations on systems, RL demands etc. The player also begins to slowly absorb a lot of the negativity that comes from the community. Feeling like the work done isn't appreciated, that the players are ungrateful for the effort he/she put in (mind you, all this work is done without getting any real compensation for it. The games I staffed on gave what's equivalent to 500TP a month for staffing). Due to employment/tax rules (my staffed game is in CA), it's generally not feasible to give even a small monetary compensation as it should be taxed and what not.
- The other factor that begins to play in for the achiever player is that there's nothing more to achieve. He/she has reached the highest status possible related to the game. There's no step beyond that, nothing to aim for, nothing to strive for. Sure, can strive to become lead-staff, but once that's reached, it's the endgame. I'm sure many of you know how that feels and that your interest in the game slowly starts to fade away at that point (it can be kept going for a long while longer via alts, expansions and especially the social aspect of the game).
- The player then starts to log in less, begins to find staffing a chore and work, not just enjoyable past time. At some point he/she reaches the state where the investment is much higher than any rewards. When that stage is reached depends on the player of course, of the general player environment, of how easy it is to create new content and so on.
- Of course, could the volunteer staff-player then get employment it would help, but for most you just reach a point where you can't be bothered any longer. Even enjoyment playing the game is drastically reduced because you know of all the behind-the-scenes stuff that goes on, and not just knowing what's coming and all the nice surprises we as players have, but also all the bickering, backstabbing, cliques, factions, stupid players, grievers and what not.
- A final thing that often happens is that people get really busy RL. That happened to me when I stepped down as lead story plotter. I had other RL projects on my plate and got busy with work etc. I a couple of years later returned to the game during a bored summer, and staffed again for half a year or so, but the beginning burnout was already there, lingering from my previous staff experience. (and leaving again, not finding enjoyment in playing and having to invest too much compared to what I got out of it, I found LOTRO and here I have fun while relaxing, knowing it doesn't matter if I can't log in for a week).
The games I staffed haven't found any solution to this issue (as they can't employ anyone as it's such a small text-based RPG system). Employment of staff would solve the burnout issues, but short of that, they're drawing a blank and good staffers leave once they've learned how to be skilled staff.
So a little view into how volunteer game staffing works. If there's plenty of passion and a good player environment, then great things can be achieved, but once a game community reaches a certain size/age, then there'll be too much negativity around to make up for the lack of achievement options for the dedicated player who staffs.
I wasn't necessarily thinking of complex game dynamics but simple things (maybe like the kin revamp) that would be more self contained.
In a program this complex, almost nothing is self contained. Just off the top of my head, based solely on what's visible in-game, a kin revamp project would need access to the code that controls the character database, titles, auction house, chat, mail, UI, housing, and all the housing subsystems (skills, storage chests, permissions, etc).
Handing off all this code to an unknown programmer on an unsecured network is just asking for a disaster. And if the idea is to code as much as possible without access to these, while letting an in-house programmer make the proper connections, all that's really left to be written by the volunteer is little more than a description and a flowchart, which would probably be better suited for the suggestion forums anyway.
Wouldn't the entire game need to become open source for this suggestion to be viable?
Depends on how it'd be set up. Eg. login and password to the servers = access to modifying code etc. Just like remote programmers when they work from home or abroad.
Wouldn't the entire game need to become open source for this suggestion to be viable?
Pretty much. You let volunteers access the code base remotely. They will copy entire code base. Launch their own private shards running their variant of the Lotro code. The company ends up losing their revenue base because people are playing on the private shards.
Turbine had issues with private shards in the past for their first two games. People would take the client executable and build a server emulator. It would be so much easier if you had the source code for the client and server.
Remember the existing issues are not caused by lack of development staff. Lack of Quality assurance staff. It is caused by management ordering the product live launched when it is not fully functional. Volunteers would not be assigned to fix existing problems. They would be assigned to creating new content and features that would be launched when they are not fully functional.
Last edited by Yula_the_Mighty; May 16 2012 at 05:08 PM.
Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.
Remember the existing issues are not caused by lack of development staff. Lack of Quality assurance staff. It is caused by management ordering the product live launched when it is not fully functional.
Is the product launched unfinished because management set an unrealistic date? Or is the product launched unfinished because management didn't allocate the proper resources?
The only way you can say that it is the former is if you can determine that no amount of resources would be sufficient to deliver the features in the time frame allotted. I don't think any of us have that kind of information.
Management makes the decision to launch a buggy product, but that's merely the last decision. That doesn't make it the critical decision.
I think Turbine actually *does* use volunteer programmers, just not in the way you were thinking of.
I've recently started to look into plugins and wow, there's a lot of nice stuff there. Features people have been asking to see added to the game (a way to take notes, all items in a single inventory bag, a larger dressing room) are currently available as plugins. This means more options for players (plugins are optional by definition, and the people making them tend to offer several varieties), without significant amounts of work for Turbine. (They need to provide documentation for the plugin language and make sure it keeps working.)
If we didn't have these plugins, Turbine would need to consider offering these features - players helping other players by creating plugins must be saving them at least some time, which can be spent on other things now.
Of course, plugins can't solve everything and can't make fundamental changes to the gameplay, but it is a way for us to contribute.
I think I shall apply to join Palantir. (If they're accepting applications at the moment.) I'm not an ueber-experienced player, but I have some free time, and maybe I can catch some bug that wouldn't bother the ueber-experienced players but would stab a wimpy LM or Minstrel in the back.
Best of luck! Especially because your posts are well reasoned, even when I dont agree with their contents! (And theres the fact that I'm ineligible due to my subscription type)
Remember the existing issues are not caused by lack of development staff. Lack of Quality assurance staff. It is caused by management ordering the product live launched when it is not fully functional. Volunteers would not be assigned to fix existing problems. They would be assigned to creating new content and features that would be launched when they are not fully functional.
This is what I came to post, Yula beat me to it, and nicely. The pain the player base is feeling is not coming from devs, QA, whatever -- it's coming from soulless drones in suits who don't game, actively dislike the type of people who make up the customer base, and just want to keep the marketing team supplied with work so the money keeps flowing in. Adding more staff, whether paid or volunteer, would just be directed to further the status quo.
Historically there has been a lot of talk in the business world about the cost of gaining a new customer and his dollar vs retaining an existing customer and his dollar. In some industries retention is the key to profits, in others it's turnover.
Example -- there is a major tv provider who has a piece of software that tells the staff where you as a customer are on their profit curve. It starts a bit low (introductory deals), rises a bit (up-sells, conversions), and then drops off, up to 18 months. At 18 months you are of no value to them beyond supporting base infrastructure. They know they can neglect you and still retain enough people like you to keep that base, and focus their efforts on customers still in the potential profit zones. The thing is, their only major competitor forllows the exact same modelling, so it's actually of benefit to both when customers jump back and forth, because it resets you into the profit zones. When I say 18 months -- it's been nearly 10 years since we wrote the app that manages this, so it may well be a different number now.
The point of this? Turbine knows they are releasing garbage content. They know that from a technological point of view Draigoch is now being used in technology/business classrooms as an example of making sales without the bother of finishing the product, and the business justifications for doing so despite the obvious ethical failings. They know. They also have little charts and graphs that tell them how many sales they will make today and next month if the new release is perfect, or if it's 90%, or if it's 80%, or if it's functionally-speaking garbage. They have charts showing how much it will cost to release at 100%, 90%, 80%, or just broken. They put these numbers together, and we get the quality of releases that we have seen.
They release broken content because they make the most money that way. How many players left over Pits of Iron? How many left over the Draigoch nonsense, or the fact that it bugged out just as much after the first "fix," or that it bugged out even more after the second "fix," or the fact that they have stopped bothering to try and are leaving it broken permanently as they move ahead? And despite the fact that the instance is a shining example of sloppy coding meets total lack of ethical business standards it is still for sale. They make money off garbage releases.
Blame it on the internet mentality. People fall for the eternal "beta" tagging. People are comfortable shelling out large amounts of cash for defective product because they assume it might be fixed with a downloaded patch later on. When we were coding games before the internet, releases had to be solid, garbage was not acceptable. Most users today actually believe that software has to be buggy, it's just the nature of it. People actually buy that.
Long long ago, when the C64 and Atari ST still roamed in the wild, I coded for a couple major game studios. Our code had to function to be released. No patching, no bs, just make it work. We've given that attitude up in all but a few fields. Before I got out of programming a couple years ago, I was writing software for a very specialized medical field. If my software had a bug in it, people would be at risk, up to and including death. Guess what the tolerance for bugs at release was -- that's right, zero. We held ourselves to that standard, management held that standard, and customers held that standard.
Software does not have to be released in a broken or buggy state. However, Turbine will keep releasing broken garbage and failing to address issues as long as that is more profitable than doing it right. Customer tolerance has the power to change this...but the dollars keep flowing.
Informed by Science, Inspired by Art
RK/Mini/Capt/Hnt/Champ -- Raiding on Brandywine and Meneldor.
... software for a very specialized medical field. If my software had a bug in it, people would be at risk, up to and including death. Guess what the tolerance for bugs at release was -- that's right, zero.
And look at the medical costs in general... do you really want to pay $500 a month to play a bug-free game?
Personally, I'd rather they continue to release content that mostly works quite well, and keep the game inexpensive (free to many). Would I like it to be better? Sure. Am I willing to pay more for it? Not much.
Sure, it's irritating when Draigoch bugs-out. You (and 11 buddies) lose half an hour. But it's not very common. I've raided many times with quite a few different groups, and the raid has only bugged a couple times.
If your experience is significantly different, you might want to review what your group is doing, and change some things. Maybe it's RK stones, or Captain banners, or LM pets, or whatever. Change it up a bit and see what happens.
Personally, I'd rather they continue to release content that mostly works quite well, and keep the game inexpensive (free to many).
For a few people, myself included, the Great River zone is completely broken. I don't mean an occasional bug here and there, but a complete inability to begin any new quests or deeds at all (including repeatables that have already been successfully completed before U7).
No offense, but I don't think that breaking an entire zone counts as "quite well".
This is what I came to post, Yula beat me to it, and nicely. The pain the player base is feeling is not coming from devs, QA, whatever -- it's coming from soulless drones in suits who don't game, actively dislike the type of people who make up the customer base, and just want to keep the marketing team supplied with work so the money keeps flowing in. Adding more staff, whether paid or volunteer, would just be directed to further the status quo.
You and Yula need to loosen up those tinfoil hats. I'm sure it's entertaining to cast some mythical suits as mustache twirling villains out to get the poor gamers and tie them to the railroad tracks, but doing so only detracts from addressing the real problem. (Which, I'll grant you, you eventually got to.)
It's a near certainty that there are executives involved with LOTRO now that don't play video games. Labeling them as soulless drones, however, is just misdirection. And assuming that they actively dislike the 'type of people who make up the customer base' is risible. I'd challenge you (or anyone) to define what type of people make up the customer base, because it's pretty much people from all walks of life.
You should have stuck to the facts without hyperbole. Yes, the business types are only concerned with making as much money as possible - that's their job. There's only two ways to make more money - increase revenues and decrease costs. Both of those feed in to the real problem with the industry - the consumers. As long as consumers are willing to pay for shoddy products, companies will continue to make them.
This is why threads like these boil down to childish foot-stomping. If you don't like the product, stop paying for it! Stop using it! Starting threads about how quality sucks is just going to raise your blood pressure. But as long as you're still here, you're just contributing to the problem. Look at the Diablo 3 launch. Massive server fiasco. Total flamage on Battle.net. Number of people who stopped giving Blizzard money? Miniscule. ME3. Internet-wide rage over the endings. Loss to EA? Minimal.
People always trot out lines like "I'm never paying for X again!" or "Never going to buy from company Y again!" But the business folks know that 90% of them are lying. You'll find them on the forums a month later, outraged about something else.
Net-net, if you want to really send Turbine a message about poor quality, send them a letter then go away.
And look at the medical costs in general... do you really want to pay $500 a month to play a bug-free game?
Personally, I'd rather they continue to release content that mostly works quite well, and keep the game inexpensive (free to many). Would I like it to be better? Sure. Am I willing to pay more for it? Not much.
Question -- is it ok for someone to sell something that they know full well is broken? Is it acceptable to sell a defective product and refuse refunds, support, or even communication regarding the issue? I don't know what country you live in, but in most civilized countries there are laws to protect consumers from such things. For some reason we've not extended those protections to the arena of software.
Yeah, medical is different than gaming -- but most of my career has been spent in gaming (you seem to have ignored that example.) Quality code is absolutely possible. It comes down to company culture, which is largely shaped by management.
Originally Posted by Beleg
Sure, it's irritating when Draigoch bugs-out. You (and 11 buddies) lose half an hour. But it's not very common. I've raided many times with quite a few different groups, and the raid has only bugged a couple times.
If your experience is significantly different, you might want to review what your group is doing, and change some things. Maybe it's RK stones, or Captain banners, or LM pets, or whatever. Change it up a bit and see what happens.
I started keeping track after my first 4 runs bugged out. Currently sitting at ~35% bug-out rate. That's a bit more than "not very common." That is across three servers, different kin groups and pugs, on 5 different classes.
Your suggestions about how to avoid it are probably meant in a helpful way, but by doing so you are exactly the person that makes it easy for companies like Turbine to release garbage. You are shifting the responsibility from the provider to the customer, and that makes no sense.
I don't understand why computer-users have allowed themselves to fall into the lie of "bugginess can't be avioded." Let's look at a different entertainment medium for a moment -- movies. What would happen if during the Avengers 35% of the theaters just stopped working right before the big finale? Then the theater staff ignored the angry customers and locked themselves in their office, refusing to communicate. When a customer finally reaches someone on the phone they are told no, there won't be refunds, you don't pay for the experience of viewing the story, you pay to be allowed to sit in the theater during that time. You're welcome to buy another ticket and try again.
Beyond the film freezing up, a portion of customers also report they only see it in greyscale. The theater again ignores them, or says "well it seems right to me so there is no problem." When they reach someone on the phone, they are told there's probably something wrong with their eyes.
Add to this that a few people from a different theater walk out going on about how awesome the end of the movie was. They hear of the people having issues, and immediately start in on them that it's their fault because they wore green shirts, or sat in seats facing south, or ordered their popcorn without extra butter. Don't do those things, and it will work. Maybe. Sometimes.
Last edited by Fortinobrand; May 17 2012 at 02:26 PM.
Reason: well the text won't edit itself, now will it?
Informed by Science, Inspired by Art
RK/Mini/Capt/Hnt/Champ -- Raiding on Brandywine and Meneldor.
You and Yula need to loosen up those tinfoil hats. I'm sure it's entertaining to cast some mythical suits as mustache twirling villains out to get the poor gamers and tie them to the railroad tracks, but doing so only detracts from addressing the real problem. (Which, I'll grant you, you eventually got to.)
It's a near certainty that there are executives involved with LOTRO now that don't play video games. Labeling them as soulless drones, however, is just misdirection. And assuming that they actively dislike the 'type of people who make up the customer base' is risible. I'd challenge you (or anyone) to define what type of people make up the customer base, because it's pretty much people from all walks of life.
I don't know Yula in real life, just from the forums and a few in-game encounters (same server) so certainly wouldn't presume to speak for him. But based on those interactions I believe he has the same level of experience as I do. Real industry experience, dealing with these same issues in multiple companies.
Your observation about LotRO gamers coming from every walk of life is of course accurate, but from an analytical business point of view they can be grouped together based on two shared traits -
1, they are a combination of early adopters and the majority. Not so long ago, people would turn on their favourite TV network and watch it all night, regardless of what was on. Network identity and brand were key. That shifted eventually to specific show identity/brand, but still on the "big 3 networks." Now, TV is a nebulous concept, with shows being watched off dvr, dvd, cable, internet, etc. These kinds of shifts happen at different rates for different people. You have early adopters who move quick. You have the majority who move after it's safe. You have the laggards who change only when their status quo is removed. Most marketing journals classify adults who game a lot as part of their routine entertainment as early adopters or front-edge of the majority. Early adopters are generally loved by progressive execs who are passionate about their industry/product, but are strongly disliked by only-for-profit business types who care nothing for the industry, it's just a tool to the dollar.
2, they will no longer accept passive entertainment. Making money was so much easier when people quietly sat and let the screen blather on, commercials and all, and there was no way to interact with the content provider. Most traditional business execs dislike the change. I have seen a lot of effort put into managing around the new interactive environment, rather than honestly joining it. There is a reason most of the really progressive companies today are being run by people who a generation ago would have been too young for even a vp position.
Because I have degrees in CS and an MBA I often end up stuck trying to bridge the gap between devs and management. I've contributed to games ranging from cartridges way back when to MMO in the modern era. When I say gaming execs actively dislike their customer base, that's based on a lot of experience sitting in meetings. It wasn't always like that, but as gaming has moved to a more mainstream entertainment option it's become the case. Actually, it's one of the main reasons I left the industry to find a happier life. I like my customers, I enjoy interacting with them, and I care about providing the product I promise.
Last edited by Fortinobrand; May 17 2012 at 02:58 PM.
Informed by Science, Inspired by Art
RK/Mini/Capt/Hnt/Champ -- Raiding on Brandywine and Meneldor.
Question -- is it ok for someone to sell something that they know full well is broken? Is it acceptable to sell a defective product and refuse refunds, support, or even communication regarding the issue? I don't know what country you live in, but in most civilized countries there are laws to protect consumers from such things. For some reason we've not extended those protections to the arena of software.
Yeah, medical is different than gaming -- but most of my career has been spent in gaming (you seem to have ignored that example.) Quality code is absolutely possible. It comes down to company culture, which is largely shaped by management.
No, it's not shaped by management - it's shaped by consumer expectations. Airbags in cars didn't happen because companies decided it was a swell idea to make safer cars, they became standard when consumers insisted on them and showed that they were willing to pay for them.
Regarding the defective product issue, software companies have two excellent defenses. First is the fact that software is sold 'as-is' and they make no warranty of it's suitability or use, blah blah blah. Second, no matter how buggy an individual enconter is, Turbine can point to the game as a whole, and say it's 99% functional. Now the second defense gets a little murkier when it's possible to buy a single, non-functioning piece of content via microtransaction - but the most you could get back from that is price of the microtrans - not the entire software purchase+sub fees etc...
No, it's not shaped by management - it's shaped by consumer expectations. Airbags in cars didn't happen because companies decided it was a swell idea to make safer cars, they became standard when consumers insisted on them and showed that they were willing to pay for them.
We're having a difference of definition here -- I don't consider that a company culture issue, that's a product feature issue. Company culture comes in when decisions as to what corners will be cut in airbag manufacture, and how the company will respond if there is a problem discovered. Business and making money does not have to exclude ethics and basic right and wrong.
Originally Posted by Sardonyx
Regarding the defective product issue, software companies have two excellent defenses. First is the fact that software is sold 'as-is' and they make no warranty of it's suitability or use, blah blah blah.
And that's where the disconnect is. Can I manufacture televisions and sell them as-is, with no warranty? Not in the US. Can I sell life insurance as-is, with no guaranteed suitability of use? No. Why to we give a company the size of WB a complete pass on standards?
Informed by Science, Inspired by Art
RK/Mini/Capt/Hnt/Champ -- Raiding on Brandywine and Meneldor.
For a few people, myself included, the Great River zone is completely broken. I don't mean an occasional bug here and there, but a complete inability to begin any new quests or deeds at all (including repeatables that have already been successfully completed before U7).
Originally Posted by Fortinobrand
I started keeping track after my first 4 runs bugged out. Currently sitting at ~35% bug-out rate. That's a bit more than "not very common." That is across three servers, different kin groups and pugs, on 5 different classes.
Wow, that is incredible. (Almost to the point of being actually unbelievable, but I'll take your word for it.)
If that was happening to me, I'd be very frustrated too.
My personal experience (and that of everyone in my kin, and everyone with whom I raid) differs. Our bug rate is less than 5% (still not good, but far more tolerable than 35%).
I wonder why it's so vastly different? Perhaps someone at Turbine can data-mine a bit, and see if they can narrow-down why it bugs so often for some and not others? Actually, I'd be surprised if they aren't already doing that of course. MMOs are notoriously complex programs. But it would be nice if they were giving us more visibility into their efforts.
My suggestions were indeed meant to be helpful - heck, anything you can do to avoid the bug would be good. But I'm certainly not trying to shift the responsibility away from Turbine. I'm just trying to enjoy the game as much as I can (and that sometimes mean ignoring some bugs).
There's only one bug that bothers me personally at the moment - the game crashes when my nVidia drivers take too long responding. I have a new and very high-end machine with dual GTX 570 cards. No other game (and I play a lot of other games) has the problem. But LotRO can't deal with it; the game window goes black. My only option is to restart. Sucks when I'm in a raid (even worse when I'm solo; I usually end up in the rez circle).
Anyway, I'm sorry to hear the problem is so bad for you, and I sincerely hope they fix it. You mentioned multiple servers: If you have a character on Landroval, and want to join us for a raid sometime, just let me know (you can send an in-game mail to Mosby). We do Draigoch at least once a week, and it almost never bugs for us.
If you join us and it bugs, we'll blame you (just kidding). Maybe it's character-specific, like the infamous Wii bug (in Turbine's AC game - http://asheron.wikia.com/wiki/Wi_Flag); I hope not for your sake!
And that's where the disconnect is. Can I manufacture televisions and sell them as-is, with no warranty? Not in the US. Can I sell life insurance as-is, with no guaranteed suitability of use? No. Why to we give a company the size of WB a complete pass on standards?
Actually you can do both those things. Focusing on the first case, you're certainly able to manufacture and sell televisions that work only between the hours of 12 and 6, or only have red and green pixels, or that interleave every other frame with static. You only get in trouble when these 'features' aren't disclosed to the customer at time of purchase. That will be because the court will find that there's a well accepted definition (a 'reasonable person' standard) of what a television is and does.
I'm not sure that there exists a 'reasonable person' standard for MMOs. And if there were, it probably wouldn't include 'bug-free.' So there is really no legal argument to make here. The thing that Turbine sold is the thing we all got. We don't get to arbitrarily impose our quality standards on Turbine any more than I can walk into McDonalds and insist that my BigMac be made with 100% organic, grass-fed beef.
The responsibility comes back to the consumer. No one who's been here for any amount of time should be under the illusion that Turbine is producing highly polished extensively tested software. If you want higher quality standards in MMOs, then stop patronizing the poor quality ones.
Or, you could always get the government to legislate standards for software quality. That'd be interesting. Hundreds of heads would explode on Capitol Hill.
I'm not sure that there exists a 'reasonable person' standard for MMOs. And if there were, it probably wouldn't include 'bug-free.' So there is really no legal argument to make here.
In this case, I think the 'reasonable person' standard would fall back to the features as described by the manufacturer of the product.
To extend the television example, if the lack of blue pixels was adequately disclosed, but the red pixels had a 30-50% chance of being constantly lit within the first hour of the television being powered on, the television would still be considered defective due to the fact that it does not perform as advertised.
Govt. defined MMO standard or not, certain aspects of the game do not perform as advertised in the relevant patch notes. To a reasonable person who reads the patch notes, then sees the feature omitted or otherwise not performing as described, they would consider that part of the game to be defective.
The Plugins are what got me thinking about this in the first place. People put a ton of time into those and there are some really good ones out there.
Yes, and plugins are the most feasible way of actually getting volunteer programming into an MMO. Keeping the volunteer code separate from, yet connected to, the base game code protects the commercial game. The game developer is able to get the benefit of any popular volunteer-written extensions, while still being able to maintain control over the code of the game itself.
I'd like for Turbine to continue extending what game features are available to plugins. They're already doing this some, though it's at a rather slow pace. Update 7 finally gave LUA scripts access to items in the vault and shared storage which is a big boost to a number of plugins. (If you use any plugins that involve inventory management, check for updated versions of them. I know AltInventory has been updated to make use of the new features.)
But plugins demonstrate some of the pitfalls of volunteer additions as well. For instance, when the wallet changes came with Update 6, I got annoyed at not being allowed to skirmish with multiple characters anymore, so I started work on a plugin to keep track of which character owns how many marks, medallions, etc, for all the shared currencies. But then real-life and other interests interrupted me and I kind of got side-tracked from that project. The game has gone through an entire update, from 6 to 7, since then, yet my little currency tracking plugin still isn't ready. And although I still intend to finish it at some point (since the problem still bothers me as much as ever), I can't say when that will be. This is a common problem with volunteer projects. Just because someone started one, doesn't indicate when or if it will come to fruition. If, instead of an independent plugin, this were a project Turbine wanted and asked a volunteer to do, at what point would they decide the person assigned to it wasn't doing it?
Management makes the decision to launch a buggy product, but that's merely the last decision. That doesn't make it the critical decision.
It is always management fault. It is usually all of the following:
1) Management ordered the developers to do too many features.
2) Management did not give the developers and other staff enough time (real time days) to polish the product.
3) Management ordered staff to do work they were not qualified to do. For example, having an artist doing the scripting in an instance.
4) Management did not allocate enough staff resources.
5) Insert other managment mistakes.
6) Finally management earns its PHD (Piled Higher and Deeper) by live launching the producting when it is not properly working.
Point 6 is the "Death Decision". Management could have picked other options like delaying the launch, removing items from the feature list, demanding that more bugs be killed.
I am a very talented software designer. I depend on my leaders (management) to convert myself and my peers from a disorganized mob into a well organized team that can accomplish a task. Doing complicated software, you are focused your little piece of the task.
Last edited by Yula_the_Mighty; May 17 2012 at 06:01 PM.
Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.
Or, you could always get the government to legislate standards for software quality. That'd be interesting. Hundreds of heads would explode on Capitol Hill.
Government has been regulating software quality for years. Only in specific market segments like communication, space, military, large vehicle systems (air traffic control, train automation, airplane flight), power planet control systems especially nuclear reactors, power grid control systems ...
For something like entertainment software - the government isn't interested. Most people are not interested either. It got to be something that failure results in society level disruptions like power grid failure, damage to property - oil pipeline controller failure where someone's yard and house get covered in oil, personal injury or death - medical systems - planes falling out of the sky... that get the people wanting the government to get involved.
Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.
For instance, when the wallet changes came with Update 6, I got annoyed at not being allowed to skirmish with multiple characters anymore, so I started work on a plugin to keep track of which character owns how many marks, medallions, etc, for all the shared currencies.
I'd love to have a plugin like that!
In fact, I was considering writing it myself, but life got in the way and I never even got started.
For instance, when the wallet changes came with Update 6, I got annoyed at not being allowed to skirmish with multiple characters anymore, so I started work on a plugin to keep track of which character owns how many marks, medallions, etc, for all the shared currencies.
I'd love to have a plugin like that!
In fact, I was considering writing it myself, but life got in the way and I never even got started.
Well, posting about it got me thinking about it again, so I did a bit of work on the plugin over the weekend and have the basic functionality down. Now I just need to do a bit of cleanup work to make sure the plugin can be unloaded properly, then do a bit of testing, and I'll be able to upload it to the beta section of LoTROInterface. I'll do that within the next few days, so you can look for it there in a week or so. It's called "Per Character Wallet".
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Originally Posted by BitzM
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which is a big boost to a number of plugins. (If you use any plugins that involve inventory management, check for updated versions of them. I know AltInventory has been updated to make use of the new features.)
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