Thread: Let the Creeps run Free on all the Lands!

Originally Posted by Drakojan

P.S. How in the world is carebear derogatory? If anyone called me that, that would probably be the least offensive thing I've heard anyone say to anyone in my entire life. If the person who called you a carebear meant to offend you, they would've cursed you out... Not called you a freaking carebear, like seriously?

It really doesn't matter to me one way or the other. Heck, I've referred to myself as a carebear several times on this forum site.

I'll be honest. I do want PvP to get attention and it needs it. But not letting the "Creeps run Free on all the Lands". I have never liked factions. I hated it in Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies, and World of Warcraft and I don't want to see it here.

I am a carebear. I admit it. I enjoy carrying pies, going to festivals, doing easy quests, and looking at the view. That's one big reason why I stay here.

But my opinion means nothing. The only people's opinion that matters are the bean counters that run this game and I haven't seen them allocate very many beans toward the Moors. Do I agree with their decision? No. The Pvper's in the Moors are just as valid customers as the most care of carebears, and deserve to be treated as such.

But it's not my call.

I agree that "Let the Creeps Run free on all the lands" is a pretty dumb idea, no offense to the OP. But if they nerfed freeps abit, in the moors only, and make creeps stronger I'd be happy. Give us a server, I'll be happier. Make minis and champs less faceroll, I'll be ecstatic. If you don't nerf them, let devastating strike to 10k on crits like EC does... that would be amazing. ) Thanks for the input from the people talking about my post. But I still don't understand carebear as insulting... I know what the show is, but getting offended because of something like carebear is beyond my scope of understanding...

Originally Posted by Drakojan

I agree that "Let the Creeps Run free on all the lands" is a pretty dumb idea, no offense to the OP. But if they nerfed freeps abit, in the moors only, and make creeps stronger I'd be happy. Give us a server, I'll be happier. Make minis and champs less faceroll, I'll be ecstatic. If you don't nerf them, let devastating strike to 10k on crits like EC does... that would be amazing. ) Thanks for the input from the people talking about my post. But I still don't understand carebear as insulting... I know what the show is, but getting offended because of something like carebear is beyond my scope of understanding...

Agreed with everything you said. Back then it may have been an insult but I think it's watered down over the years.

I would love for you guys to have your own server.

Originally Posted by Drakojan

But I still don't understand carebear as insulting... I know what the show is, but getting offended because of something like carebear is beyond my scope of understanding...

Think of some term that, by formal definition *might* fit you, but which also has demeaning connotations. Next, imagine that the term is used a slur or with a sneer, implying that, because the term can be forced to fit, you are somehow inferior to the person using it. How would you react?

I won't give specifics because too many of the obvious choices are based on national origin, genetic background, or religious bias. Fortunately, most of them have passed out of general use over the past 50 years or so (though there are still pockets where such terms are prevalent).

Instead, we get new terms invented or applied.

It's mostly an in-group/out-group thing. Very much a factor in human nature...WE are superior to THEM, so WE will find a perjorative name to call THEM. Pick your "we" and "them". There are a myriad of possibilities.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by whheydt

Think of some term that, by formal definition *might* fit you, but which also has demeaning connotations. Next, imagine that the term is used a slur or with a sneer, implying that, because the term can be forced to fit, you are somehow inferior to the person using it. How would you react?

I won't give specifics because too many of the obvious choices are based on national origin, genetic background, or religious bias. Fortunately, most of them have passed out of general use over the past 50 years or so (though there are still pockets where such terms are prevalent).

Instead, we get new terms invented or applied.

It's mostly an in-group/out-group thing. Very much a factor in human nature...WE are superior to THEM, so WE will find a perjorative name to call THEM. Pick your "we" and "them". There are a myriad of possibilities.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Ironic coming from you, because you project the attitude that YOU are superior to those "subhuman" PvMPers.

Originally Posted by Drakojan

This too. The one person I really didn't like in this thread was the selfish one who said that she doesn't want PvMP unless it doesn't take any resources from PvE, and that she wants Turbine to get rid of it. What if Turbine decided to get rid of PvE all together, and just make this a PvP game, with no mobs. (I know this is ridiculous and will never happen, just saying.) How mad would you be? You would be pissed off because Turbine took away what you enjoy in this game. PvE is to you, as PvP is to me, except I don't want PvE destroyed. Do PvPers care that PvE gets alot of attention? No. Do we want some attention to? Yes. Do we want attention to the point that there are no new updates for PvE and Turbine only focuses on us? NO. As other posters said, THERE ARE OTHER PLAYERS IN THIS GAME. Get off your high horse, and think about someone except you every once in a while. If I offended anyone, I don't mean to. Except for the selfish one, I meant to offend her slightly... CAREBEAR!!!!!
/rantoff
P.S. How in the world is carebear derogatory? If anyone called me that, that would probably be the least offensive thing I've heard anyone say to anyone in my entire life. If the person who called you a carebear meant to offend you, they would've cursed you out... Not called you a freaking carebear, like seriously?

Someone likes making assumptions without checking facts first. I count 4 untrue statements/false assumptions in this quote. If you're going imply things that I did not type, and things that are not true, and make assumptions with no evidence, I would rather you quote me exactly. Some people who read what you've written here might think what you typed is true, and that would be tragic.


false assumption 1: I'm female
false assumption 2: I'm selfish
false statement 1: "she wants Turbine to get rid of (PvP)
false assumption 3: "You would be pissed off because Turbine took away what you enjoy in this game."


Correction 1: I'm male.

Correction 2: I'm actually a very caring and giving person.

Correction 3: I never said I wanted them to get rid of it. I simply said I wouldn't be upset if it was gone. I don't care at all about PvP in this game. Let me try explaining it this way. I don't smoke, and don't care to. If someone wants to smoke in their own home, or in private that's fine with me. I don't care what they do. But if I'm in the no-smoking section of a restaurant, and second hand smoke is wafting over to my table causing it to detract from my dining experience, then it becomes an issue to me. I'm not going to demand the restaurant be a non-smoking establishment as long as I don't have to smell the smoke, but if the establishment decided to become non-smoking, I would be happy. That doesn't mean I want to kick all the smokers out of the place.

Correction 4: Sorry, I wouldn't. I'd just play a different game. Life's too short to get all worked up over a computer game.


First entry in the Urban Dictionary for "Care Bear"

Originally Posted by urbandictionary.com

Lightly derogatory term for an MMO player who avoids PVP combat, heavily preferring cooperative or solo PVE combat, chatting, or developing tradeskills/running quests.

You can call people whatever you want. I just suggested you'd have better luck winning people over to your argument if you didn't use what are commonly known as derogatory terms to identify people who disagree with you. You can also add "selfish" to that list if you want.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Ironic coming from you, because you project the attitude that YOU are superior to those "subhuman" PvMPers.

I have never claimed not to be human.

However, I do not use collective perjorative terms for those that prefer Pv(M)P. I call them "PvMPers", or "PvPers", or "Pv(M)Pers" depending on context. I have been known to note that "gankers" (a perjorative term) only applies to a small--possibly VERY small--subset of Pv(M)Pers, but I don't apply that to Pv(M)Pers generally.

Most of the claims that I "hate" Pv(M)Pers appear to be projections from those that disagree with my opinions. That claim happens to be false. I don't "hate" Pv(M)Pers, nor do I feel superior to Pv(M)Pers. I think that, on average, I'm rather *older* than the typical Pv(M)Per, but I'm reasonably certain there are exceptions to that as well. What I do wish would be for PvMPers to quit trying to push their play style onto people who aren't interested in it.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

If you want to see the kind of people open world pvp attracts, go read Aion's forums. Most of them would be banned from posting on this forum the first day.

There's no reason to argue over a suggestion that will never happen, even if everyone on the forums gave it a +1.

Originally Posted by Widoch

Correction 1: I'm male.
Correction 2: I'm actually a very caring and giving person.
Correction 3: I never said I wanted them to get rid of it. I simply said I wouldn't be upset if it was gone. I don't care at all about PvP in this game. Let me try explaining it this way. I don't smoke, and don't care to. If someone wants to smoke in their own home, or in private that's fine with me. I don't care what they do. But if I'm in the no-smoking section of a restaurant, and second hand smoke is wafting over to my table causing it to detract from my dining experience, then it becomes an issue to me. I'm not going to demand the restaurant be a non-smoking establishment as long as I don't have to smell the smoke, but if the establishment decided to become non-smoking, I would be happy. That doesn't mean I want to kick all the smokers out of the place. Correction 4: Sorry, I wouldn't. I'd just play a different game. Life's too short to get all worked up over a computer game.

Responses:
1) I apologize, I determined your gender by the picture on your sig.
2) I have no way to determine that, so I'll have to take your word for it, and again, sorry.
3) Fair enough. I must've misread your post but I don't feel like going back to check since my iPod is getting slow.
4) I didn't mean pissed off like that, I meant that you would quit this game in favor of another game, and you would feel slightly resentful because of the work you pt into your char is lost. Just a smidge resentful.
Well... I lost xD. Thanks for replying so I knew that my statements were false.

Originally Posted by thelurchyone

If you want to see the kind of people open world pvp attracts, go read Aion's forums. Most of them would be banned from posting on this forum the first day.

There's no reason to argue over a suggestion that will never happen, even if everyone on the forums gave it a +1.

That's right, turbine was never going to do anything like this.

Thats why Orion never hinted towards the idea of PvMP skirmishes.

Originally Posted by Drakojan

Responses:
1) I apologize, I determined your gender by the picture on your sig.
2) I have no way to determine that, so I'll have to take your word for it, and again, sorry.
3) Fair enough. I must've misread your post but I don't feel like going back to check since my iPod is getting slow.
4) I didn't mean pissed off like that, I meant that you would quit this game in favor of another game, and you would feel slightly resentful because of the work you pt into your char is lost. Just a smidge resentful.
Well... I lost xD. Thanks for replying so I knew that my statements were false.

Nice to see a civil response amidst disagreement. +Rep

Pvp has its fun... for about an hour. Then its time to move on. My sugguest is that Turbine creates a new server that after you log onto your account you click on that server that is PvP landscape. The whole world would be PvP and you would use a "ghost" toon from your account that shows up on the PvP server. The loot and rewards would stay on that server and are account wide. So, if you have toons on multiple servers you can bring them in and play. Sure they can put a lvl cap on the server. Blah, blah, blah... Heck its one server, and you can get a chance to play with everyone across the game. Is Turbinb wanted to take it a step in the right direction, let them player make kins. Just leave everything on that server for that server. Creeps have start in Angmar/MM/barrows and so on with stables to travel. And freeps have their locations and stables. I am not a big pvp player, but i would log on to see this chaos.

Originally Posted by rgrx02

Pvp has its fun... for about an hour. Then its time to move on. My sugguest is that Turbine creates a new server that after you log onto your account you click on that server that is PvP landscape. The whole world would be PvP and you would use a "ghost" toon from your account that shows up on the PvP server. The loot and rewards would stay on that server and are account wide. So, if you have toons on multiple servers you can bring them in and play. Sure they can put a lvl cap on the server. Blah, blah, blah... Heck its one server, and you can get a chance to play with everyone across the game. Is Turbinb wanted to take it a step in the right direction, let them player make kins. Just leave everything on that server for that server. Creeps have start in Angmar/MM/barrows and so on with stables to travel. And freeps have their locations and stables. I am not a big pvp player, but i would log on to see this chaos.

That's a somewhat different approach than the usual one for a PvP (aka "red") server.... It has nearly all of the same issues that just a plain red server would have...special rules (with the implied development and duplicate testing as ongoing requirements), extra support costs, and licensing issues. To that, one has to add the very likely database issues.

You will notice that Turbine has indicated problems with trying to implement a cross-server instance finder. those problems would exist, plus things like naming collisions (in real time, at that) AND--since this calls for playing on an actual shared server--overriding server-specific coding or row IDs that relate to characters "belonging" to specific servers. In essence, it would be a temporary server transfer, at--at present--that appears to require hand monitoring if not actual manual intervention to accomplish.

I don't think there is an economically feasible way to do it.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by whheydt

That's a somewhat different approach than the usual one for a PvP (aka "red") server.... It has nearly all of the same issues that just a plain red server would have...special rules (with the implied development and duplicate testing as ongoing requirements), extra support costs, and licensing issues. To that, one has to add the very likely database issues.

You will notice that Turbine has indicated problems with trying to implement a cross-server instance finder. those problems would exist, plus things like naming collisions (in real time, at that) AND--since this calls for playing on an actual shared server--overriding server-specific coding or row IDs that relate to characters "belonging" to specific servers. In essence, it would be a temporary server transfer, at--at present--that appears to require hand monitoring if not actual manual intervention to accomplish.

I don't think there is an economically feasible way to do it.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

American servers already have this sort of thing for Bullroarer. Doesn't seem to be a problem there.

I think I solved the issue of Names on one server Have the Creep or Freep name. With like a Server Code. Basicly like the USA State codes. Like California CA. Texas TX

So let take a few servers and a Toon name Ainvar. Now not sure if it looks better with the Server code at the end or at the start of the name. But it will Tell other users That player from one server or another. They could sugar coat it with types of Flags. Like Brandywine would be a wineglass on a flag. Just tossing some ideas.

Brandywine BW. BW Ainvar
Elendilmir ED. ED Ainvar
Landroval LR. LR Ainvar
Menedor MD. MD Ainvar
Vilya VY. VY Ainvar

Hope that helps.

Originally Posted by Celt_Ainvar

I think I solved the issue of Names on one server Have the Creep or Freep name. With like a Server Code. Basicly like the USA State codes. Like California CA. Texas TX

So let take a few servers and a Toon name Ainvar. Now not sure if it looks better with the Server code at the end or at the start of the name. But it will Tell other users That player from one server or another. They could sugar coat it with types of Flags. Like Brandywine would be a wineglass on a flag. Just tossing some ideas.

Brandywine BW. BW Ainvar
Elendilmir ED. ED Ainvar
Landroval LR. LR Ainvar
Menedor MD. MD Ainvar
Vilya VY. VY Ainvar

Hope that helps.

It's the week long effort it would take getting the database to see that which is the issue.

Live servers seem pretty trashy compared to the testing ones too. So many things worked on them that don't/didn't work on live.

As much as i would like this to happen, it won't.....

The tears would rain down for 40 days and 40 nights.

On another note, i didn't read this thread entirely, but this one stuck out to me....

Originally Posted by Diamondforce

This is EXACTLY my point. You and I have different views on PvP vs PvE. Obviously there is a reason they separate us. I agree wholeheartedly that PvP should get more content! HECK YEAH! But please... don't force me to PvP if I don't want to. You don't have to PvE...

Makes me question if you've spent any time at all in the moors.

Originally Posted by Untg99

It's the week long effort it would take getting the database to see that which is the issue.

Live servers seem pretty trashy compared to the testing ones too. So many things worked on them that don't/didn't work on live.

Mybe I worded the frist part wrong. But the idea is this. If there was a single pvmp server. for All lotro Clients. So people will know Ainvar from Ainvar from a different server. Put 2 letter abbreviation from the server they where from. So Brandywine would be listed BW of the toons name. So it would be BW Ainvar. If the other Ainvar from Crickethollow. It would be CH Ainvar. That give players some way of knowing if they played Ainvar before or have not. It also fix the issue of having to rename toons on this pvmp server.

Originally Posted by Dorothir

American servers already have this sort of thing for Bullroarer. Doesn't seem to be a problem there.

Actually, it is. Tons of people have had characters fail to copy to Bullroarer, for a variety of reasons. On Bullroarer, Turbine can just say "oh well... try a different character and see if that one copies". For a production feature, they'd need to make it work seamlessly, and that means either A) a non-trivial development investment to handle every corner case, or B) handle the problem cases manually (as they currently do for server transfers).

I do agree with the poster of this idea that it's better to keep PvP and PvE segregated, both in terms of geography and in terms of game mechanics. A PvP world could help with that, but so far Turbine hasn't even been willing to create any new special rules servers with the most trivial of differences (e.g. rules changes), presumably due to cost. The only reason they have any official RP servers at all is because they were pretty much forced to when they took over the Codemasters worlds.

Cost-wise, they might be better off just creating a new map for PvMP on all of the existing worlds. That wouldn't have the load issues or development costs of creating a cross-world PvP server, and it would still maintain a sense of community that you cannot achieve with a cross-world feature.

Khafar

Originally Posted by Dorothir

American servers already have this sort of thing for Bullroarer. Doesn't seem to be a problem there.

Not entirely. The copy to Bullroarer doesn't always work (even for characters that have always been on NA servers), and Turbine has indicated that, since the copies are used for testing, they're not going to root out the bugs. Also, BR copies are not done from the server selection screen, but through a separate program. BR copies simply aren't the same thing and the process isn't nearly robust enough to be used routinely in a live environment.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by Khafar

I do agree with the poster of this idea that it's better to keep PvP and PvE segregated, both in terms of geography and in terms of game mechanics. A PvP world could help with that, but so far Turbine hasn't even been willing to create any new special rules servers with the most trivial of differences (e.g. rules changes), presumably due to cost. The only reason they have any official RP servers at all is because they were pretty much forced to when they took over the Codemasters worlds.

Setting aside the license issues, which I think are the real barrier, bear in mind that Turbine has in-house experience with "red" worlds from both AC and AC2. They may simply not want to go there any more.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by whheydt

Setting aside the license issues, which I think are the real barrier, bear in mind that Turbine has in-house experience with "red" worlds from both AC and AC2. They may simply not want to go there any more.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

And this baseless speculation about Turbine has what do with the topic at hand?

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

And this baseless speculation about Turbine has what do with the topic at hand?

What makes you think it's baseless? It's pretty well accepted that Turbine *did* negotiate with SZC/MEE to be allowed to have a PvMP zone, so it is reasonable to expect that they'd have to go back to SZC/MEE to created "red" server, or even the (proposed in THIS thread) "ghost" red server.

Are you prepared to deny that AC has a PvP (aka "red") server? Are you prepared to deny that AC2 had a "red" server? Unless you can show that those servers don't exist and never existed (respectively), and you're going to have to argue with a fair number of posters that have played AC and/or AC2, including at least one who has recounted his experiences on Darktide, then it's going to be really, really hard to dispute that Turbine has experience running full time PvP servers.

The *only* speculation is where I stated that "[t]hey may simply not want to go there any more." I submit that the the history of AC and AC2 removes any valid claim for that speculation to be "baseless".

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by whheydt

What makes you think it's baseless? It's pretty well accepted that Turbine *did* negotiate with SZC/MEE to be allowed to have a PvMP zone, so it is reasonable to expect that they'd have to go back to SZC/MEE to created "red" server, or even the (proposed in THIS thread) "ghost" red server.

Agreed!

Since we are all just speculating here, allow me to throw my hat into the ring. We can determine, based on the litigiousness of the Tolkien Estate that they are very protective of the content and distribution of the works in general. Yes, they wish to make large sums of revenue. No, they don't give as much free license as some would like.

As a Freep, odds are you have experienced the story line in a manner they found acceptable. Yes, we can argue the finer points of the game and certain classes and content; but in general, its a representation that the Estate accepts. PvP is done in a manner in which players are locked into a zone where the main storyline is not effected and those wishing not to participate in a battle between players are shielded from that aspect of the game. What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.

I would venture to say that most Creeps did not start out as Creeps and stay as Creeps only. Many still play PvE, even if only to entertain them self since PvP is not as developed as they would like.. Basically, acceptable to a degree since the story is still being delivered with an added touch of PvP restricted access.

Throwing Creeps into the open world, even if only on a Red Server or Instance changes the delivery of the storyline. That puts Turbine/WB under the constant scrutiny of the Tolkien Estate. The Freeps always have to win in the end and certain battles must be won/lost in order for the story to remain true. Changing the strength of the opposing force can't change the outcome of a story already written in stone (as far as the Estate is concerned). You also can't throw away the storyline in a game licensed specifically to deliver that story in an approved manner.

If you look at the constraints, they are quite numerous in the game. Many zones locked into a specific date/season based on when that area was experienced in the storyline. All to insure that we experience the story in a close resemblance in the manner that it was put forth in the works. Throwing in open world PvP, even on a closed server would, in my opinion, go too far off the path for the Estate to accept.

Originally Posted by Zarador

Since we are all just speculating here, allow me to throw my hat into the ring. We can determine, based on the litigiousness of the Tolkien Estate that they are very protective of the content and distribution of the works in general. Yes, they wish to make large sums of revenue. No, they don't give as much free license as some would like.

As a Freep, odds are you have experienced the story line in a manner they found acceptable. Yes, we can argue the finer points of the game and certain classes and content; but in general, its a representation that the Estate accepts. PvP is done in a manner in which players are locked into a zone where the main storyline is not effected and those wishing not to participate in a battle between players are shielded from that aspect of the game. What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.

Replace "Tolkien Estate" with "Saul Zaentz Company doing business as Middle-earth Enterprises" and you got it. If it were up to the Tolkien Estate--read Christopher Tolkien--there would be NO game...and no movies, either.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by whheydt

Replace "Tolkien Estate" with "Saul Zaentz Company doing business as Middle-earth Enterprises" and you got it. If it were up to the Tolkien Estate--read Christopher Tolkien--there would be NO game...and no movies, either.

Yep. The Tolkien Estate has nothing whatever to do with the licensing for LOTRO. Middle-earth Enterprises (aka Saul Zaentz) won't litigate anything - they'll just veto the stuff they don't want to allow, and can ultimately pull the license entirely if a company is treating the IP badly.

However, it's hard to know with MeE just what they'll allow and what they'll forbid. They've allowed some pretty hideous stuff in games like Battle For Middle-earth 2 (e.g. summoning the Watcher or Tom Bombadil, or causing a volcano to erupt), yet refused to permit Turbine to support tattoos for any of the free peoples... weird.

Khafar

Originally Posted by Khafar

Yep. The Tolkien Estate has nothing whatever to do with the licensing for LOTRO. Middle-earth Enterprises (aka Saul Zaentz) won't litigate anything - they'll just veto the stuff they don't want to allow, and can ultimately pull the license entirely if a company is treating the IP badly.

However, it's hard to know with MeE just what they'll allow and what they'll forbid. They've allowed some pretty hideous stuff in games like Battle For Middle-earth 2 (e.g. summoning the Watcher or Tom Bombadil, or causing a volcano to erupt), yet refused to permit Turbine to support tattoos for any of the free peoples... weird.

Khafar

Which only supports the point that MeE may support landscape PvMP just as easily as they'll forbid it, so the entire MeE thing is a fish of color #F00.

If they do allow it, let it be on a server removed from the normal ones. I like my warg, but the idea of it bouncing through the shire is a bit too strange.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

And this baseless speculation about Turbine has what do with the topic at hand?

First off, it's not entirely baseless. Secondly, the fact of their experience with previous red worlds absolutely has to do with the topic of allowing full PvMP world-wide.

I'm astounded that you even posted this, frankly.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Which only supports the point that MeE may support landscape PvMP just as easily as they'll forbid it, so the entire MeE thing is a fish of color #F00.

That, sir/ma'am, is the definition of "baseless speculation," especially when you consider that MeE wasn't really thrilled with ANY amount of PvP, however defined, in the first place.

All of this has been gone over repeatedly. Please keep up.