Thread: Let the Creeps run Free on all the Lands!

Originally Posted by PierreForever

I thought Monster play at first was just where you ran around the shire killing everyone!!!!

I don't know if this was posted in sarcasm or if it's serious, but I can say that players with this attitude are precisely why so many of us hate open-world PvP, & why it's almost certainly [bNEVER[/b] coming to LOTRO.

Honestly tho, I just wish Turbine would come right out & say it, once & for all.

Originally Posted by Livejazz

Honestly tho, I just wish Turbine would come right out & say it, once & for all.

Turbine has stated it a number of times. This request has been going on since I started playing back in June, 2007. The Russian operator having live with the Creeps out increased the number of "Let it out" requests to Turbine. Turbine has a long cool downs on repeats. It is tiresome after a while doing the following:

1) it is never going happen as the last post by a Turbine employee.
2) Lock thread.

All that is going to happen is threads being started to discuss it some more. Plus threads on heavy handed moderation. All of which have to be locked or deleted. Infraction points handed out.

Sometimes the best solution as a moderator is to ignore something. Some companies and organizations go this route with suggestion and feedback boxes. Your stuff goes in the box. Once a week someone empties the box into the trash can.

If, and mean if, Turbine really wanted to implement something like this, that could go the SWG route. Use a command to join in on the PvMP for the freeps, like /PvMP. If you log in on a creep, you are automatically PvP. That will not force PvP but it would allow free world creep running. The downside for Turbine is that is one of the last good reasons to have a VIP account right now. I have no interest in PvP, but it seemed to work for SWG.

Originally Posted by UrsaMinor

My thought is that this is exactly what Blizzard did (zombie invasion) that convinced me to cancel both of my WoW accounts. Couple being subjected to mandatory PvP (on a normal type server, violating the promise they made) with the official response from Blizzard that they felt that this event was momentous enough in scope that they felt everyone should experience the danger, and there in big neon lettering was my cue to leave.

I'm halfway convinced that my LOTRO time may be over soon for similar reasons. The lack of mitigation regarding the forced emotes has me thinking that Turbine/WB may be leaning towards the Blizzard model of 'we know what's best for you'. Yes, this actual issue may not be huge, but the attitude of the game makers towards their customers is. I do not approve of the direction of giving tools to people to annoy others without giving the targets some way to ignore the annoyers. Turbine obviously realized that similar activity (sparring, for example) would not be acceptable to all, and provided an appropriate toggle to squelch such activity. Their failure to do the same with an even more annoying activity is, to me, evidence of a disturbing trend; a sea change in developer attitude towards customers.

+rep for you.

Originally Posted by Momadan

Either way, it's a shame that Codemasters is not there anymore. It was not always perfect under CM, but at least you had the feeling of being taken seriously as a customer even for PVMP Concerns.

Codemasters had no control over the code, and very little over release timing. As I understand it, CM tended to delay updates for a week or so past when Turbine launched them. That was about it.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by Cassie4486

Now this could be a once a year thing or monthly or whatever. Have the Creeps run around any of the lands & just have at it.

It would be nice to get our creeps outside for a bit but, even with a PvP option flag, many PvEers will still disagree because they say they'll be harrassed by creeps even with flag off... as if you can't already do that with two freeps.

Originally Posted by Cassie4486

Maybe have them have to overtake a town or do a huge battle. Obviously keeping the levels in mind as well. So a lv 75 can't run into Bree-town & take out all the lower level new alts running around.

Could work maybe in a skirmish style thing. Creeps and freeps are allowed a brief window of maybe a week every month in which a skirmish sort of thing is open to everyone. You talk to an NPC to enter the skirmish that's always on during this time and you just go out and do the same stuff as in Ettens just with a different area. Still have the usual open world zone but also a hidden layer for PvP only accessible through an NPC.

Originally Posted by Cassie4486

I think some fun could be had with this! Thoughts?

It could be fun, yes, but the problem is this was one of the things that Turbine was not allowed to do. They aren't allowed to do open world PvP but that doesn't mean they can't create a skirmish style layer every so often involving a random region to fight it out in.

I haven't read any of the other comments but, if they haven't already, prepare yourself for a load of 'this would cost too much money so we (i.e. the greedy PvEers) don't want it!'

Originally Posted by Cassie4486

Now this could be a once a year thing or monthly or whatever. Have the Creeps run around any of the lands & just have at it.

Maybe have them have to overtake a town or do a huge battle. Obviously keeping the levels in mind as well. So a lv 75 can't run into Bree-town & take out all the lower level new alts running around.

I think some fun could be had with this! Thoughts?

No thanks. Keep the pvp #### where it belongs.

]

Heck, I really wish they would take sparring out.

Last night I declined to spar someone and they called me a "loser". And I can't even count how many times that sort of thing has happened since I started playing the game.

I could see having special events, like Medieval style tournaments (especially if mounted combat is coming) where people volunteered to fight each other and the rest of the people could just ignore it.

If they made my character PvP enabled even for a day I wouldn't bother to log in that day. I don't want to PvP. I simply don't enjoy the friendly banter that the highly competitive types who enjoy PvP exchange between each other. I don't find taunts, insults and being killed by a character I have no chance of competing against (due to that character being setup for nothing but PvP) fun in any way, shape or form.

I know that Turbine won't/can't do this, but I did at least want to say that I personally would LOVE to defend various places from the map against the creeps. If it was an announced annual event, that could be fun but of course a LOT of people would be upset, but even a PvP instanced area from the map would be fun too, anything for a change of scenery. So while yes I know it will never happen, for a lot of reasons, I still love this idea.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

My preference would be that the Creeps get put in a PvP layer. The only Freeps in the PvP layer are the ones that.

I like your idea. A modified of your idea. Every day it would change Regions. Let say Bree one day. Lonelands the Next day and so on. If a Creep of pvmp toon trys to exit that zone It block.

Only people in pvp mode would see Creeps. Otherwise it would not affect non pvmp players and non pvmp would not see a creep. To prevent anyone accidently going into pvmp zones while playing. Start it in the Log in screen.

There will 3 on the log in screen

1 Main (that what we see now) Moors
2 Monster Play Moors and Reigonal Play.
3 PVMP Region Play and Moors

i don't get why some people hate pvp.. i mean okay, you hate competition i guess. but why would you get so annoyed at spars? it takes about as much time as it does to kill a few on lvl mobs. winning or losing a spar isn't even a big deal since winners don't win anything and losers don't lose anything lol.. it's the pettiest thing one can be upset about.

also, personally, i think sparring makes you a better player; helps learn to think on your feet, quick reaction time etc.

Normally I would have responded with a no, mainly as I play Eve a fair bit and the last thing this game needs is the camping & griefing antics imported from that game into the supposedly safe / starter areas.

However, this game does need a shake up so I will say yes but with the following:

1. They have to break out of the Ettenmoors through Glan Vraig or make a long journey from Mount Grams to Angmar by foot. No starting off elsewhere.

2. No fast travel options for creeps - if they want to go to Breeland then they have to run. Saraman's Uruk's had use leg power to Ambush the fellowship and I cannot think of any other examples in the lore of Orcs / Uruks moving vast distances overland.

3. The creep's effective level reduces to reflect the nominal level of the area they are in. For example, the creeps mount a concerted attack on Glan Vraig and break through and get down to Rivendel, their effective level changes to say 35. And say they got into the lone Lands it would reduce to mid 20s etc. This would reflect the effects of their being far from their homes, daylight and the reducing effect of Sauron's / Saruman's will on their morale. By the time they get to Bree or even the Shire they would be a spent force & easily dealt with.

4. Factions. Not all enemies to the free peoples would be their allies. We all know how splintered and fractured orc tribes were in the books so let's reflect that. E.g. in Moria the Moria orc tribes would take a dim view of a bunch of newcomers invading their space and would welcome the opportunity for meat to be back on the menu. Same with those areas in Angmar where Orc tribes are located. Same for wargs / spiders.

5. The guards outside each settlement are beefed up a bit and attack on sight. No guard pulling antics or exploits please.

6. Give freeps the option to opt out of pvp.

7. Turbine crack down hard on any reported griefing etc.

Originally Posted by Suenami

i don't get why some people hate pvp.. .

I don't like PvP because mean people suck. 90% of you guys are really good folks with honor and integrity and are the opposite of a mean person. But that remaining 10% really give you good people a bad name.

It ruins my game play.

I've played WoW on a RP-PvP server.

I'd be willing to bet Laurelin would make a fine RP-PvP server too. Speaking from experience, ganking was very rare on RP-PvP.

Also, world-PvP can add a lot to RP.

While being afraid of gankers et al. serves a purpose, it distracts from the possibilities and opportunities.

Bad apples spoiling the basket, and in the end we all lose to the gankers, even if they didn't get do anything yet. Just their existance in other games... Makes you think eh?

Originally Posted by Cassie4486

Thoughts?

it seemed very interesting for me at the beggining, but, wouldn't it be ettenmoors on a different map? i donnu,maybe we can make some ideas to tweak it and make it cool and original.

Originally Posted by Nymphonic

I don't like PvP because mean people suck. 90% of you guys are really good folks with honor and integrity and are the opposite of a mean person. But that remaining 10% really give you good people a bad name.

It ruins my game play.

Exactly! Well said.

Originally Posted by Chris91

Download russian client and have fun

http://www.lotro-russia.com/

Why download russian client? Is it a free creep thing?????

Originally Posted by Suenami

i don't get why some people hate pvp.. i mean okay, you hate competition i guess. but why would you get so annoyed at spars? it takes about as much time as it does to kill a few on lvl mobs. winning or losing a spar isn't even a big deal since winners don't win anything and losers don't lose anything lol.. it's the pettiest thing one can be upset about.

also, personally, i think sparring makes you a better player; helps learn to think on your feet, quick reaction time etc.

When people start using declining spars to "verbally" abuse people (as the poster you commented on said happened to him), disliking sparring is going to be the result.

Personally, I simply run with the sparring flag off. If someone starts insulting me over that choice, he'll go straight to my ignore list. If he tries "physical" action, there will be a harassment report filed.

One of problems is that some people love PvP in all it's varieties so much that they will do nearly anything to induce others to partake, whether those others wish to or not (this is a BIG problem in any game where one can be flagged for PvP accidentally). The solution that Turbine has constructed, having PvMP in a separate zone that can't be entered inadvertently and a "no spar" flag, is a good one.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by PierreForever

Why download russian client? Is it a free creep thing?????

On the Russian server, on one occasion, they let the creeps out of the Ettenmoors. Unfortunately, the creeps found a way to escape the zone they were allowed into and spread across the map. Hence the suggestion to install that particular client and play on that server. (I have no idea if that server is still operating or not.)

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by Suenami

i don't get why some people hate pvp.. i mean okay, you hate competition i guess. but why would you get so annoyed at spars? it takes about as much time as it does to kill a few on lvl mobs. winning or losing a spar isn't even a big deal since winners don't win anything and losers don't lose anything lol.. it's the pettiest thing one can be upset about.

also, personally, i think sparring makes you a better player; helps learn to think on your feet, quick reaction time etc.

Because there's already enough competition in real life, and I play games to get a break from real life. Plus the way I was brought up emphasized using one's skills to help others towards a common goal, not stomp them and crow about it.

As for sparring (or anything else in the game that I don't enjoy, but that you might want me to do), my time is my time. Trying to tell me that I should offer myself up for your enjoyment is pretty arrogant.

I actually quite like PvP. I stay away from it though. Why?

Originally Posted by Suenami

i don't get why some people hate pvp.. i mean okay, you hate competition i guess. but why would you get so annoyed at spars? it takes about as much time as it does to kill a few on lvl mobs. winning or losing a spar isn't even a big deal since winners don't win anything and losers don't lose anything lol.. it's the pettiest thing one can be upset about.

Because of the incredibly immature attitudes.

Originally Posted by Suenami

i don't get why some people hate pvp ... i mean okay, you hate competition

I don't mind competition, but I do mind the attitudes of the vast majority of PvP hounds I've ever encountered. That's why I don't get involved in it.

Originally Posted by Livejazz

I don't mind competition, but I do mind the attitudes of the vast majority of PvP hounds I've ever encountered.

It's not a "vast majority", but there are enough jerks that it ruins my enjoyment, in every game. I actually played on a hardcore PvP server in AC for a few months, but the mindless viciousness that people employed eventually caused me to give up on it. Example: my very first minutes on that world consisted of getting killed by a level 35 player 7 times (until someone else made a character and he was distracted killing the new guy). There was no plausible reason for it - at level 1, I had nothing whatever of value. He just entertained himself each night killing n00bs as often as possible... I saw him there several times in the weeks I played on Darktide.

In any case, I rather like "competition", but I vastly prefer the "sportsman" model for competition - there are strongly enforced rules, plus a code of ethics/behavior that builds character and rewards virtue. When a high school kid raked his nails down my back enough to draw blood (and leave scars) in a water polo game, the ref ejected him from the game and his coach suspended him from their team for a month. Later, when I was in college on a swimming scholarship, one of our best athletes said and did some extremely ugly things to a guy on another team. Our coach suspended him indefinitely (and threatened him with losing his scholarship), only relenting once the athlete called both the other swimmer and that swimmer's coach to apologize.

Obviously, there are jerks everywhere in life - including PvE in MMOs. But in PvP, those jerks have real power (and too few restraints, self-imposed or otherwise), and I just don't find it a pleasant environment to hang out in.

Khafar

Originally Posted by BangoTwinkletoes

3. The creep's effective level reduces to reflect the nominal level of the area they are in. For example, the creeps mount a concerted attack on Glan Vraig and break through and get down to Rivendel, their effective level changes to say 35. And say they got into the lone Lands it would reduce to mid 20s etc.

I agree with all your points except this one, creeps wouldn't be able to get anywhere at all, they'd be one-shotted in Rivendell if they were lvl 35. If not by npc's then by capped players. I think the answer would be to simply not let un-capped characters flag for pvp. That way only capped characters, who want to participate will be affected at all.

Probably shouldn't have creeps fighting landscape mobs either, except freep allies like guards and such, because the non-pvp people will complain the creeps are killing their mobs, and it opens up the possibility of creeps griefing by killing quest mobs and on purpose. If anything like this had any chance at all of making it into the game, they(Turbine) would have to make sure the non-pvp people didn't get angry for any reason, because honestly, that's probably most of their income.

I used to play games that had open pvp (pk etc.) and I do agree that there are people out there who enjoy a good fight, but most players you'll find there are just looking for easy kills to bolster their ego.

Personally I don't see any reason whatsoever why creeps should be able to "run free on all lands" in the first place. What could a lvl 12 toon do against a lvl 75 creep other than feeding the creep players ego by dying?

As for spars ... You can spar all day long, just don't do it inside places like auction halls or places with enough lag already.

i understand your plight good men and ladies! i used to be pretty peeved out by spars and the moors. i am not a good pvper, and i didn't want to be defeated pathetically by people who were more experienced and built exclusively for pvp. that was before i was told by a friend that this is only a game. and mean people on a game or the internet earn nothing but contempt at the end of the day.

sure it blows to get farmed when you are clearly outmatched; sure some people can be utter dirtbags; but they only get to be that way if you let them get to you.. took me a lot of time and swallowing a lot of virtual pride for me to delve into pvp. i get my stuff kicked in on the daily. but when you have principle, it shows. i'm friends with a lot of people who have a reputation built around pvp. and i know about 800 who's ill repute is larger than any online persona should be lol but don't let that get to you.

there's a sheer excitement in pvp that droll pve cannot fulfill and that's the only reason i would urge ANYONE to try sparring/pvping. i used to think i was a well-rounded, situationally aware player until I started pvping. It has it's own sort of challenge, and own sort of reward. and i truly believe it makes one a better player in terms of skill (even though i acknowledge the skill of many players who don't pvp, but i have come to appreciate the merit of quick thinking since i started pvping).

The only way something like this would be viable is if the Creeps had to start as on-level players in the various regions. They could start in Bree-Land or the Shire at the Goblin camps or in Ered Luin at one of the Dourhand camps, all at level 15 with appropriate skill sets for the level. They could chose other higher level locations such as the Orc Ruins in the Lonelands at level 25, or Trollshaws at level 35, etc., all the way up to level 75 in the appropriate areas. They could be given 24 or 48 hours to run some quests set up for them and battle landscape mobs, with the intent of gaining as many levels and skills as possible before the big event.

On the announced date, all of Middle Earth would become PvP for 1 day. Since there would be advanced warning, the Freeps would have enough time to prepare too and with the Creeps scattered and at various levels, it would be pretty much a fair fight, perhaps slightly in favor of the Freeps due to sheer volume of numbers even though the Creeps would have the advantage of experience at PvP.

Originally Posted by Khafar

It's not a "vast majority"

I was only speaking of my own experiences, & from those experiences, I stand by my words: the vast majority of PvP hounds are people with whom I've no interest associating.

Originally Posted by Suenami

there's a sheer excitement in pvp that droll pve cannot fulfill and that's the only reason i would urge ANYONE to try sparring/pvping.

What makes you think people replying to this thread haven't tried PvP?

Instanced PvP is tolerable, but it's just another faction grind for pixellated rewards. Non-instanced, open-world PvP is a miserable, worthless gank-fest. Both of them end up causing massive balance headaches for developers, & endless amounts of angst, drama, & irritation among players. It's simply not worth the effort.

Originally Posted by Livejazz

Instanced PvP is tolerable, but it's just another faction grind for pixellated rewards. Non-instanced, open-world PvP is a miserable, worthless gank-fest. Both of them end up causing massive balance headaches for developers, & endless amounts of angst, drama, & irritation among players. It's simply not worth the effort.

I would + rep you, only I just did on another post.

/e sends Livejazz virtual chocolate

Originally Posted by Livejazz

What makes you think people replying to this thread haven't tried PvP?

This. I've tried PvP in a dozen different MMOs, including a hardcore PvP server in AC (2 months) and EVE Online (6 months). The problem isn't with the competition, it's the immature jerks - a minority among PvPers, but a large enough one to make things unpleasant (at least for me).

My opinions on keeping PvP contained and fully segregated from PvE exist because I've tried PvP in numerous games, and don't want the negatives I've experienced showing up here. Yes, it has positives too, but not nearly enough to justify the changes IMO.

An example of this happened with the very first open world PvP opportunity my daughter and I encountered in TOR. We ran across a player who was flagged for PvP, and he clearly wanted to fight us (in part because we were each 8 levels below him, and would have been slaughtered). He followed us around, emoting at us, killing the MOBs we needed for a quest, standing on top of a medical droid to make it hard to use. He did give up after 5 minutes or so, but it was annoying... and understandable to some extent. PvP is what this player finds entertaining, and he has to "recruit" people to engage in it. Sometimes that can mean a long wait for the next Warzone, so he's trying to drum up some interest (in a really annoying way). While he's being a jerk, I also blame TOR for giving him the incentive to be a jerk, and I definitely do not want to see that happening here.

Khafar

Originally Posted by Rochendilwen

Sure. If they implement a toggle on/off option so I don't need to be involved in the madness that will ensue. I am in the game for the PvE, so I'd rather not be randomly questing/crafting/exploring and suddenly wonder where the stone circle came from.

Totally in agreement here. I really hate it when I'm at the vault or crafting and someone feels the need to toss some hold over festival item and I pass out. Last thing in the world I need is someone killing me in the middle of crafting or changing gear at the vault.

good idea!

Originally Posted by Suenami

i don't get why some people hate pvp.. i mean okay, you hate competition i guess.

The difficulty is that a sizable potion of the PvP are not interested in competion. They want the one shot kill. Hence the level 50 in Combe with a level 48 Great Eagle pet that was challenging all the new arrivals to Spars on Meneldor. Having his Eagle which was 42 levels higher than the little Champion butcher the Champion.

Would you agree to a one on one in Flight Simulator? You get a WW2 ME 109E. You opponent has a F15 with a full complement of radar locking missiles. Many of the PvP player want this situation where they are flying the F15. I enjoy fighter fights in Flight games. You will find that will both have a ME 109E with the same load out. It becomes a skill, familarity with the plane battle. Not a 22 caliber pistol versus an Abrams Tank.

The problems with creeps even level limited in Breeland:

1) You are soloing on your Hunter. It is not one at level Warg. It is 6, 12 or 24 of them.

2) You are happily doing your quest. Combat is under way. From stealth at 60% morale, it is pounce and stun time. Followed by bite paw paw. Hamstring. Watch the mobs finish you off. Or perhaps a Black Arrow decides now would be the time to help the piggie by putting an arrow in you.

I do not mind concept of. Hi Warin. I am a level 12 Black Arrow and you are level 12 Captain. Wanna Fight? One on One. Le me finish of this wolf. Heal up. Then we can have a go at each other.

That why my frist suggestion will work.

When you Load up lotro. you have 3 choices login Screen.

1 Normal It what we currenty have right now.

You do not see Creeps YOU NOT interact with Creeps So people who are Agenst the PVMP world wide still can play the game as they want. So you would not have to whine about creeps.

2 Monsters play. (Moors) a option to play in a region that open to monster play.

Basicly the same as now. Just a option of a region that open that day.

3 PVMP region. New option

You do not interact with players of Option 1. You can Fight creeps on the Region for that day. You do not interact with Roleplayers or any other type of playing so people with Option 1. So people on option 1 would not have to whine option 3.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

You get a WW2 ME 109E.

/purist_mode on

There is no such aircraft as an "ME 109" (regardless of model). You mean Bf 109E, aka "Emil-Emil" model. The *designer was Willy Messerschmitt. The *manufacturer* was Bayerische Flugzeugwerke, hence the "Bf".

/purist_mode off

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by UrsaMinor

Because there's already enough competition in real life, and I play games to get a break from real life. Plus the way I was brought up emphasized using one's skills to help others towards a common goal, not stomp them and crow about it.

As for sparring (or anything else in the game that I don't enjoy, but that you might want me to do), my time is my time. Trying to tell me that I should offer myself up for your enjoyment is pretty arrogant.

+ rep and virtual chocolate to the Great Bear.

Here has been my experience over the years in other games:

PvP Player: Hey, give PvP a shot, play against other players instead of NPCs. Enjoy a real challenge in a whole new world!
PvE Player: I don't know, I'm rather non-confrontational. I enjoy my little world, no thank you.

PvP Player: Hey, until you tried out MMO's you never knew you would like them, give it a go, it's a blast!
PvE Player: You got a point there, I'll give it a try, why not?

(A few hours later Bambi enters the forest for the very first time)

PvE Player: Whoa! what was that, I'm dead, I did not even finish logging in?!?!?!
PvP Ganker: Toughen up carebear!
PvE Player: I just got here, I'm new, your a much higher level, geeze...
PvP Ganker: Then you learned your first lesson, stay out of my way.
PvE Player: Not a problem, won't see me pvping again!
PvP Ganker: Looser.

Yeah, it's those ones that we like to pretend that are the 1% of the PvP world that turn away many would be learners of the art of PvP. Could be the greatest fun ever that anyone will have in a game, but those first experiences often add up to never returning. Then they sorta remember the experience when replying to threads suggesting PvP in the PvE realm.

Oh, and whats the first experience that many of us have in a PvE game? That's right, forgetting to turn of Spar. Yeah, I declined 15 times and took the insults while I searched the UI to find the "Turn off Spar" option.

Originally Posted by Zarador

Oh, and whats the first experience that many of us have in a PvE game? That's right, forgetting to turn of Spar. Yeah, I declined 15 times and took the insults while I searched the UI to find the "Turn off Spar" option.

I turn the spar option off as well as adoption and invite to kin... why? Because I play this game with my little group of friends and enjoy it. My kin is not huge... but they are fun and the chat is awesome. I play to enjoy myself. I don't play to become aggravated. The instant I find myself becoming aggravated I log out to avoid "gamer rage". I don't like forced emotes, I don't like sparring and normally I don't like PvP... that's me... so...

To all that feel that I am wrong/a loser/coward/stupid etc... I pay to play the game the way I want to. I don't WANT to play the game the way you do. I have tried PvMP... I tried sparring... it doesn't interest me in any way... so why MUST I play the way you want to play, when I don't want to?

I know for a fact that there are good intentioned PvP'ers out there... I am glad and happy you enjoy yourself doing the PvP and sparring, I really am. But I am not here to be the best, I am not here to prove myself to anyone... I am here to immerse myself in Middle Earth and have fun. PvP and Sparring do nothing for me in regards to what I want out of LoTRO. Since I pay a monthly fee and I buy TP with cash... I feel I have a right to say my piece.

/not signed.

Originally Posted by whheydt

/purist_mode on

There is no such aircraft as an "ME 109" (regardless of model). You mean Bf 109E, aka "Emil-Emil" model. The *designer was Willy Messerschmitt. The *manufacturer* was Bayerische Flugzeugwerke, hence the "Bf".

/purist_mode off

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Being a WW2 history freak, I really enjoyed reading this. Thanks!