Thread: Hunter Uber DPS Rotations

First post in the Hunter forum so big Hi to everyone. I don't actually play a hunter but my wife does and I lead a T2 raiding team containing several hunters. The problem we have is they are all pretty low on the DPS figures. For single target bosses under raid buffs they are all only hitting around the 1k mark compared to 1,500 for the Champs and 1,800 for the burgs. I've been doing lots of research into this awesome class and I want to get the hunters back to the top of our single target DPS tree.

I'm aiming for big burst DPS and not worried about threat or power (awesome tanks, cappies and LMs).

This is what I want to recommend everyone aims for, it would be good to hear some thoughts on this:

Legacies:

Bow:

Ind Crit
Focus Crit
Ind Power Cost
Focus Power Cost
Burn Hot Damage
Heartseeker Damage

Weapon:

NH Duration
Precision Crit Mag
AoE Targets
Press Onwards CD
Agility
Vitality

Traits (5r,1b,1y)

Heart of the Bard (Y)
Deadly Precision (B)
Swift and True (R)
True Shot (R)
Shot through the Heart (R)
Critical Eye (R)
Fast Draw (R)

Legendaries:

Cool Burn
Bards Arrow
Press Onwards

Rotation:

Strength Stance / Cudur Set

1) Focus - Needful Haste - Focus

2) PS - Barbed Arrow - Heartseeker - Bards Arrow - PS

3a) Macro swap to Gonathradir Set - ISB - Macro swap back to Cudur Set

3b) Precision Stance - Blood Arrow - Barbed Arrow - QS - PS - QS - PS (Repeat 3a every time ISB is available)

4) After 30 seconds as soon as Bards arrow is off CD GOTO 5

5) Strength Stance - Bards Arrow - Burn Hot - Barbed Arrow - Heartseeker

6a) Macro swap to Draigoch Set - Intent Concentration - Macro swap back to Cudur Set

6b) Barbed Arrow - Heartseeker - Bards Arrow - PS - Blood Arrow - PS - QS - PS - QS

6c) Precision Stance - GOTO 3a

Note - The second time around IC and Burn Hot won't be available but Heartseeker will be so just avoid 6a and 6b. The third time around You will need an extra Bards Arrow to get Heartseeker off CD.

If an extra burst is needed keep a Focus Pot off CD ready to use.

I guess that looks like a pretty messy rotation but the build is based around getting Heartseeker off every 30 - 40 seconds and maximising the DPS in between.

It would be good to hear some thoughts from the experts as to where this can be improved while still using the Cudur / Draigoch sets. It's also clearly aimed at single target DPS as this is where we need to improve the most.

I might be wrong but to base a DPS rotation on Heart Seeker is not the best way to get the highest DPS...

Originally Posted by Wilksie

1) Focus - Needful Haste - Focus

2) PS - Barbed Arrow - Heartseeker - Bards Arrow - PS

3a) Macro swap to Gonathradir Set - ISB - Macro swap back to Cudur Set

3b) Precision Stance - Blood Arrow - Barbed Arrow - QS - PS - QS - PS (Repeat 3a every time ISB is available)

4) After 30 seconds as soon as Bards arrow is off CD GOTO 5

5) Strength Stance - Bards Arrow - Burn Hot - Barbed Arrow - Heartseeker

6a) Macro swap to Draigoch Set - Intent Concentration - Macro swap back to Cudur Set

6b) Barbed Arrow - Heartseeker - Bards Arrow - PS - Blood Arrow - PS - QS - PS - QS

6c) Precision Stance - GOTO 3a

Note - The second time around IC and Burn Hot won't be available but Heartseeker will be so just avoid 6a and 6b. The third time around You will need an extra Bards Arrow to get Heartseeker off CD.

What does this mean?

Pretty messy rotation you say? My eyes are bleeding mate...

First of all I'm completely against the use of 5r and Cudur for actual raid fights, I just cant get that setup to result in good DPS.

I dont get the massive love for Heartseeker, especially not to the point where you waste time on macro swapping gear, "spamming" Bards Arrow and waste 2 class traits to improve the damage on it.

The whole concept of swapping between Gonathradir and Cudur that often really messes me up, you only want the set bonus from Cudur once every 2 minutes for BH (yeye -50% power cost on HS and so what?!) and you still waste a second or 2 on macroswapping.

I would never ever use Strength Stance unless I need the slow from QS, I really dont get why you'd sacrifice lower miss chance, more focus and crit multiplier for bit of extra damage, Precision Stance is way more stable DPS imo.

The strength stance is only there while Burn Hot is active during the double Heartseeker, the majority of the time will be in Precision.

Like I said, I don't play a hunter. My main DPSer is a Champ and maybe I am likening Heartseeker to a Remorseless Strike too much ( I like seeing BIG numbers). Should I scrap the idea of 5r and aim for a more traditional 5b2r Fleetness/ISB/QS/PS/Barbed/Blood rotation?

I think the macro swap for ISB / Gonathradir is a good idea to get the chance at the debuff and is handled by the Razer Naga mouse so wont cause any delays. The same for IC/Draigoch to get the art skills to reset.

What do you do in the first 30 secs to achieve such good figures Elrantiri?

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

First of all I'm completely against the use of 5r and Cudur for actual raid fights, I just cant get that setup to result in good DPS.

raid fights this days are always short and clean, cudur works well in them.

Precision Stance with 3-5 blues traited and rest red is probably the way to go.

That macroing seems pretty unnecessary and clunky (3 armor sets?!).

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Pretty messy rotation you say? My eyes are bleeding mate...

I agree completely.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

First of all I'm completely against the use of 5r and Cudur for actual raid fights, I just cant get that setup to result in good DPS.

But not here. I have 5R and Cudur and do the same DPS as hunters with 5B and the fleetness set.
To give you an idea, I do around 90K damage in a minute on the training dummies in Galtrev. (No buffs/food/help/... at all) And my largest output is by far in the first 20 seconds, useful for the quick first kill in ToO.

Traits:
Fast draw
Critical eye
Swift and true
Barbed fury
True Shot

Swift Recovery
Resolute aim (if you never have aggro, replace with strong draw)

Cool Burn
Bow of righteous
Rain of thorns/Bard's arrow

(Healers have the job to keep me alive, LMs to give me power )

Precision all the way

Rotation:
Needful haste (every min)
Burn hot (every 2 min) (skip if not up)
Swift bow (every 10 secs)
Barbed arrow (10 sec bleed)
Hunters Art (10 sec cooldown, can be skipped if you don't like it)
Blood arrow (10 sec cooldown)
Swift bow/Precision shot until swift bow is up.
REPEAT from swiftbow or needful haste if it is up


Legacies:
+25% crit multipliers, induction and focus
barbed arrow bleed
crit chance in precision
Needful haste duration
2 vit
2 fate
2 agi

All others are ####. + damage for burn hot would be nice, but no points left on my second age bow. I'll replace the fate with that on my first age when I get it.

Originally Posted by Burio

raid fights this days are always short and clean, cudur works well in them.

As much as 5r might work for some hunters I still dont see where Cudur fits in. I cba to do the math for it but I highly doubt +25% crit multiplier is more than 5-6% extra DPS if even that much and it's only active for 20 seconds every 2 minutes.
Even if I went for a 5r setup I'd take Gonathradir over Cudur for the Swift Bow proc as it helps the whole raid.

Originally Posted by yoda-

To give you an idea, I do around 90K damage in a minute on the training dummies in Galtrev.

Which is completely my point for not using 5r, the first 20-30 seconds they got awesome DPS, then it drops a good bit and after ~1 minute 5r and 5b have done about same DPS, but the 5b fella can keep his DPS at that level all the time while 5r drops in DPS until BH is ready again.

Originally Posted by Wilksie

The strength stance is only there while Burn Hot is active during the double Heartseeker, the majority of the time will be in Precision.

Like I said, I don't play a hunter. My main DPSer is a Champ and maybe I am likening Heartseeker to a Remorseless Strike too much ( I like seeing BIG numbers). Should I scrap the idea of 5r and aim for a more traditional 5b2r Fleetness/ISB/QS/PS/Barbed/Blood rotation?

I think the macro swap for ISB / Gonathradir is a good idea to get the chance at the debuff and is handled by the Razer Naga mouse so wont cause any delays. The same for IC/Draigoch to get the art skills to reset.

What do you do in the first 30 secs to achieve such good figures Elrantiri?

The only reason Remorseless is nice IMO is because of Seeking Blades. When I have 4 fervour and SB is on cooldown I use Brutal + Clobber rather than remorseless. Furthermore, a remorseless with 2-3s induction/animation time would suck.

I dont seek for a certain rotation on my hunter because it depends so heavily on crits.

When fighting a single target, I aim to use Needful Haste and ISB whenever they're off cooldown, keep Improved Fleetness up all the time, have Barbed Arrow active on target all the time and use Pene Shots/Blood Arrow whenever I have enough focus. In between all this I use Quick Shot to build focus whenever needed. I tend to use Intent Concentration after ~30 secs to fill up power, get enough focus for 2nd Fleetness and thereafter use it whenever it fits in. Same goes for Focus pots, they're used whenever I just need that extra bit of focus, e.g. when Oathies are active and I'm low on Focus.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Which is completely my point for not using 5r, the first 20-30 seconds they got awesome DPS, then it drops a good bit and after ~1 minute 5r and 5b have done about same DPS, but the 5b fella can keep his DPS at that level all the time while 5r drops in DPS until BH is ready again.

First 20-30 secs are often the most important though. You can get 1-2 important mobs down in ToO in that time. After that the fight became easy.
And my 2 min DPS (burn hot CD) isn't much worse than with 5B. Also, my power consumption is a lot better.

Since I don't trait 5B, I don't use fleetness, so Faron set is pretty much useless for me.
I WOULD like to know what the debuff from the the Gonathradir set is exactly though.

EDIT: Either way, both DPS rotations are valid and very good. And that is all the topic starter asked for.
I also didn't intend to post my rotation as being the best, it's just very good and the one I use.
For some reason I ended up defending myself, just trying to help here.

Pretty sure the rotation in the OP will result in terrible DPS for a lot of effort. HS is just a bad skill for DPS, it's really only useful as an opener when you are doing the induction OOC (even then, ISB is probably just as good).

I use 5B and pretty much the same as elra... fleetness up 100% of the time, barbed on the target all the time (best way to time this well is to follow it with blood arrow I've found), NH & ISB whenever they're off CD, otherwise mostly PS/BlA and some quick shots. I don't really ever use HS/Merciful.

@yoda- - No deadly precision? Really? That should never be unslotted for anything.

Originally Posted by yoda-

First 20-30 secs are often the most important though. You can get 1-2 important mobs down in ToO in that time. After that the fight became easy.

That is true, but read OP:
"For single target bosses under raid buffs they are all only hitting around the 1k mark compared to 1,500 for the Champs and 1,800 for the burgs."

We're not talking mobs/trash pulls, we're talking bosses and IMO having high stable DPS is better than a 5r build.

Originally Posted by yoda-

And my 2 min DPS (burn hot CD) isn't much worse than with 5B. Also, my power consumption is a lot better.

What I'm reading here is that you're sacrificing DPS for power.

Originally Posted by yoda-

Since I don't trait 5B, I don't use fleetness, so Faron set is pretty much useless for me.

Faron requires 5B+capstone to be of any use. Simple as that.

Originally Posted by yoda-

I WOULD like to know what the debuff from the the Gonathradir set is exactly though.

It has 30% chance of putting a ~ -1k physical and tactical mitigation debuff on target with a 15s duration.

Originally Posted by yoda-

EDIT: Either way, both DPS rotations are valid and very good. And that is all the topic starter asked for.
I also didn't intend to post my rotation as being the best, it's just very good and the one I use.
For some reason I ended up defending myself, just trying to help here.

Yeah I have seen hunters make 5r work very nicely, but I cant. At best I can make 4r 3b work for me.

Originally Posted by Wilksie

I run 5 blue and 2 red, I feel this gives me the most sustained DPS while providing good burst DPS (still able to get between 1200-2k+ on trash pulls depending on how much switching and downtime there is and 4-5k DPS over 10-15s w/ OB on mobs such as T2 Acid Wargs)

So I will adjust your OP for my suggestions. Not sure what epeen stats I can give you to take my hunter/build seriously, but it seems to work well for me, so here it goes:

This is what I want to recommend everyone aims for, it would be good to hear some thoughts on this:

Legacies:

Bow:

Ind Crit - GOOD
Focus Crit - GOOD
Ind Power Cost - GOOD
Focus Power Cost - GOOD
Burn Hot Damage - BAD (for a blue hunter, I would definitely recomment maxing Barbed Arrow Bleed... adds about 75 DPS with just this one legacy, and not accounting for crits/devs on bleeds (which is possible))
Heartseeker Damage - BAD (Maybe for the 'moors this is good, or if you like to showoff your epeen in the Dragon raid with your 25k+ hits, but for sustained DPS, especially in blue taits, its a useless trait IMO, I would recommend going with an Agility stat)

Weapon:

NH Duration - GOOD
Precision Crit Mag - GOOD
AoE Targets - GOOD
Press Onwards CD - Preference (I used to use it, but I don't really have the need in raids to use Press Onward enough to warrant the -CD, I perfer the Blue Trait *Deep Concentration* (I think) that gives power back when Intent Concentration is used, so the legacy I would replace PO cd w/ would be the +power return on Intent Concentration... though is power isn't an issue, maybe a fate stat would be good... I only suggest the Deep Concentration trait as there aren't a bunch of great blue traits so might as well use that one since you'll be using IC often anyways, might as well get a bonus 700 power along with it)
Agility - GOOD
Vitality - GOOD

Traits (5r,1b,1y) - MEH (Again, I would perfer the 5b 2r combo)

Heart of the Bard (Y) - BAD (Deep Concentration as mentioned above gives power back when Intent Concentration is used)
Deadly Precision (B) - GOOD
Swift and True (R) - BAD (well, good red trait, but in 5b/2r, it wouldn't be used. I like one that gives +10% damage to blood arrow and penetrating shot)
True Shot (R) - GOOD
Shot through the Heart (R) - BAD (Unless your in the moors, dont use this. I like the one that prevents setback on Needful Haste)
Critical Eye (R) - GOOD (or Hail of arrows in AoE situations)
Fast Draw (R) - BAD (again, a good red trait, but not over the other 2. I would recommend the one that gives -30s CD on needful haste and Intent Concentration)

Legendaries:

Cool Burn - BAD (Fleetness w/ 5b gives +1 focus every 5s, +10% run speed in AND out of combat, -60% miss chance when moving, and it has a 30s duration on a 30s CD, which means it's up 100% of the time. It does have a 6 focus cost though, but when you get your rotation down pat, and pay attention to the fleetness duration timer, it's easy to keep up)
Bards Arrow - MEH (I would ALWAYS recommend using Bow of the Righteous, it gives more power back than any skill, pot, etc. that is available to the hunter)
Press Onwards - GOOD (this trait can be swapped out depending on situation. This, Bards Arrow and Rain of Thorns are all good... situationally)

Rotation:

Strength Stance / Cudur Set - BAD (Precision Stance ALWAYS (except the rare occasion where you need a slow) and Faron (Blue) set)

1) Focus - Needful Haste - Focus - Change this to Focus - NH - Fleetness Stance - Focus

From here, I use the 5s of Improved Focus buff to unload with: ISB - BlA (blood arrow) - PS - PS

After the 5s is up, I do - BaA (Barbed Arrow) - PS - QS - PS -QS - PS - ISB - PS - BaA - BlA - etc.

Basically I don't have a set rotation per se, I just try to acomplish:

Always on CD - Needful Haste, Fleetness Stance, Improved Swift Bow, Blood Arrow and Intent Concentration

Then I always try and do Barbed Arrow and Blood Arrow back-to-back to time the BlA CD and BaA bleed (10s ea.)

I try to NEVER do back to back induction shots as there is a delay which focus shots can be used

Plus (which I never thought this needed mentioning until I found out a kinnie never did it, and they upped their DPS by several HUNDRED) but always have the next skill queued up instead of waiting until the first skill fires then press another skill...

If an extra burst is needed keep a Focus Pot off CD ready to use. - Sometimes I use the focus pot to put me back at enough focus for Fleetness stance, if for some reason I get out of rhythm with my rotation

I guess that looks like a pretty messy rotation but the build is based around getting Heartseeker off every 30 - 40 seconds and maximising the DPS in between. - Again, IMO, heartseeker is not very good in a raid setting, and you become even worse if you actually BUILD for it

It would be good to hear some thoughts from the experts as to where this can be improved while still using the Cudur / Draigoch sets. It's also clearly aimed at single target DPS as this is where we need to improve the most. - If you have the Cudur set, and you don't have enough for the Faron set... sigh... I won't even begin where to tell you to build, I don't think I have EVER used more than 3 reds, and the only time I was in S:S is when I needed to tank, or when I was in the moors...

see the red

hope this helps

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and suggestions. I feel like I've doubled my Hunter knowledge in a couple of hours!

Unfortunately someone in the kin thought it would be good to get the Gonathradir Set first and everyone followed suit - *BIG sigh! Looks like they all have some grinding to do to get the Faron set ASAP.

@yoda- - No deadly precision? Really? That should never be unslotted for anything.

Euh, no. The two blue ones I use are too important. Maybe I could instead of the trait that prevents setbacks, but then I'm not allowed to get aggro.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

That is true, but read OP:
"For single target bosses under raid buffs they are all only hitting around the 1k mark compared to 1,500 for the Champs and 1,800 for the burgs."

We're not talking mobs/trash pulls, we're talking bosses and IMO having high stable DPS is better than a 5r build.

Ok, you're right. Stil,l my DPS is not that out of scale as mentioned there. I have nearly the highest DPS in the best raid groups on my server. (If you know anyone on Nimrodel, ask them if Nimosriel (me) does good DPS :P ).

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

What I'm reading here is that you're sacrificing DPS for power.

I'm doing (almost?) the same DPS for less power, not really sacrificing anything. It's also a matter of what you're used to/playstyle. I don't think I could get the same DPS with the 5Bs. Just as you mentioned you can't get my DPS when red traited. I have gotten a lot out of the replies here so I will look into my traits some more, compare a bit more and see if I can increase my DPS even further. And to compare DPS, try hitting a trainin dummy in galtrev for 1 and 2 minutes without any buffs and let me know what you do on average

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

It has 30% chance of putting a ~ -1k physical and tactical mitigation debuff on target with a 15s duration.

Hmm, difficult to judge how useful this is.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Yeah I have seen hunters make 5r work very nicely, but I cant. At best I can make 4r 3b work for me.

As mentioned before, I can make it work, but I'm having problems with the fleetness thing. Maybe the problem is in my head and I should just try harder ^^ ... But I don't want to waste all those seals just to experiment.

For some time, now I've been checking these forums daily to see what people are discussing with the hunters. I've picked up some really good tricks and habits, and learned a lot about the deeper functions of this class by reading some of info that's been shared. Since I often consider my position in this game as "Noob that still has too much to learn" I don't contribute. This thread looks like a great opportunity for me to humble myself and submit my rotations and hopefully someone that knows more than I do can spot where I could improve.

(My original post for this was much more eloquent, but my forum log in timed out some time while I was tying it -_-)


My Kin is running T2 ToO (just started completing Lightning T2C last week)
I run 5 set Faron
5b2r

deadly precision
swift recovery
deep concentration
strong draw
earth born (since AoE resets and induction knockbacks are not an issue with ToO)

True shot
swift and true / barbed fury (I can't decide which of these I would rather, I think it's just fight duration that makes the difference really show)


Sustained DPS Rotation -Focus burn:
Improved fleetness always
Barbed, PS, PS, Swift, Blood, Quick, PS, Barbed, PS, PS, Quick, PS, Quick, PS
repeat.

Barbed has a long attack duration compared to it's animation, hence the second PS so I don't stand there for a fraction of a second waiting to start my swift bow. The rotation is a bit long and seems clunky, but by the time you finish it swift bow and blood arrow will be reset. There is a period that they are ready but I'm not using them. That's so that the second half (barbed, quick, quick) can have it's full bleed duration before starting the cycle again.



My burst rotation is where I need the most work, it's mostly a spamfest, and is very narrow minded.
Fleetness
Swift, Blood, Barbed, PS :: spam ps until I need focus then alternate quick and ps until swift bow cooldown is finished. repeat.

The flaw with this is that while PS is a fast skill and no induction, it is only one hit and I find that it doesn't really benefit my DPS output to spam it. Using it a lot is great when interspersed with induction skills, but a rotation based just off that skill is limited.

Is there a better burst rotation I can be executing with my setup for trash pulls? Something that doesn't rely on 2minute CDs to be available, because it's a burst it's intended to burn one mob down in seconds, switch to a different mob, repeat ad infinitum.


Any well-intended criticism is greatly appreciated. I can provide more data on my build if necessary.

Cheers

This is a direct quote from what I posted in another thread about LI's.

"As a raider, with the main roll of DPS, then you want your very most DPS available to you when you need it.
This means focus completely on DPS with your LIs.
If you need morale, you can easily swap in morale Jewellery.

Here is my LI's.
http://i.imgur.com/85kHu.png




Why no focus bow power cost? Because I have Power Pots, Regen Food, Deep-Concentration, Improved-Strength-of-Earth, Improved-Beneath-Notice, and Bow-of-the-Righteous legendary trait. And in raid, LM's, Captains, and FM's/CJ's feed you tons of power. So running out of power means you're just not using your skills efficiently/effectively."

My sword and bow both are Multipurpose PvE Raid/Moors LI's.
The Power-Restored-by-Deep-Concentrate can be put on a swappy as well as Beneath-Notice, Agile-heal, Press-Onward, and Improved-strength-of-Earth. For this swappy I put on incoming-healing relics to boost there potency.

My bow, I only have the Heart-Seeker legacy on there because some times I like to test big numbers. In which I will use a scroll of renewal and spend points to max Heart Seeker and leave Barbed Arrow bleed with whatever is left over.



The idea behind the awesome Faron set and traiting blue, is that Penetrating-shot is the #1 skill.
Penetrating shot and Blood Arrow are THE only ranged skills you can use while moving and they both do a ton of DPS.
My rotation is basically spamming Penetrating Shot and Blood Arrow and throwing in some induction based skills just to gain more focus so I can continue to spam my Penetrating Shot, Needful Haste(Super awesome if you can macro in the Watcher Set), and refesh Improved Fleetness.
When done correctly, this way of pew pewing will do a heep ton of dmg.


For traits, I do the standard 5 blues with 2 reds which really can be anything you want. I choose Critical Eye to boost my crit, and Swift-and-True or Barbed Fury or True Shot. Not a huge difference in these, but I found the Swift-and-True to be all around nice for the extra damage boost. It's nice 1 shotting landscape mobs with one Swift-Bow.

Only thing I'll mention is that I've never had barbed arrow increase my dps in any test I've done.

Originally Posted by Smugo

Only thing I'll mention is that I've never had barbed arrow increase my dps in any test I've done.

That is just silly of you to say.
No matter what, a hunter is going to have to use an induction skill to gain more focus in a long fight.
I've tested these and it DOES increase your DPS to throw a barbed arrow in every 10 or so seconds.
Why does it? Well look at one of your other induction options to gain focus. Quick-Shot.


Look at this screencap I took of my combat log:
http://i.imgur.com/VgKiR.png


With Barbed Arrow NOT criting at all on the initial shot, or even the ticks, it did a total of 2323 Damage.
Where as the DEV shot with Quick-Shot only did a total of 1957 Damage.

I didn't use anything for this test aside from Precision Stance and patience.


Edit: little more testing
While not traited Barbed Fury:
Vieta scored a devastating hit with Barbed Arrow on the Training-dummy for 2,026 Beleriand damage to Morale.
Vieta scored a devastating hit with Improved Quick Shot on the Training-dummy for 2,065 Beleriand damage to Morale.

So basically, even without the ticks of the bleed, Barbed Arrow's initial shot certainly does matchable dps. And when you get the added ticks in there it just adds more to your dps.

Originally Posted by Shredex

This is a direct quote from what I posted in another thread about LI's.

"As a raider, with the main roll of DPS, then you want your very most DPS available to you when you need it.
This means focus completely on DPS with your LIs.
If you need morale, you can easily swap in morale Jewellery.

Here is my LI's.
http://i.imgur.com/85kHu.png




Why no focus bow power cost? Because I have Power Pots, Regen Food, Deep-Concentration, Improved-Strength-of-Earth, Improved-Beneath-Notice, and Bow-of-the-Righteous legendary trait. And in raid, LM's, Captains, and FM's/CJ's feed you tons of power. So running out of power means you're just not using your skills efficiently/effectively."

My sword and bow both are Multipurpose PvE Raid/Moors LI's.
The Power-Restored-by-Deep-Concentrate can be put on a swappy as well as Beneath-Notice, Agile-heal, Press-Onward, and Improved-strength-of-Earth. For this swappy I put on incoming-healing relics to boost there potency.

My bow, I only have the Heart-Seeker legacy on there because some times I like to test big numbers. In which I will use a scroll of renewal and spend points to max Heart Seeker and leave Barbed Arrow bleed with whatever is left over.



The idea behind the awesome Faron set and traiting blue, is that Penetrating-shot is the #1 skill.
Penetrating shot and Blood Arrow are THE only ranged skills you can use while moving and they both do a ton of DPS.
My rotation is basically spamming Penetrating Shot and Blood Arrow and throwing in some induction based skills just to gain more focus so I can continue to spam my Penetrating Shot, Needful Haste(Super awesome if you can macro in the Watcher Set), and refesh Improved Fleetness.
When done correctly, this way of pew pewing will do a heep ton of dmg.


For traits, I do the standard 5 blues with 2 reds which really can be anything you want. I choose Critical Eye to boost my crit, and Swift-and-True or Barbed Fury or True Shot. Not a huge difference in these, but I found the Swift-and-True to be all around nice for the extra damage boost. It's nice 1 shotting landscape mobs with one Swift-Bow.

Not sure what your unbuffed crit rating is, but you may want to consider dropping the Morale setting and/or replacing the title with the Agi titles from Stangard. At +27 agi, its a loss of only 30 PM per LI, and you pick up improved parry and crit rating. If you are already capped, disregard.

Originally Posted by tongra

Not sure what your unbuffed crit rating is, but you may want to consider dropping the Morale setting and/or replacing the title with the Agi titles from Stangard. At +27 agi, its a loss of only 30 PM per LI, and you pick up improved parry and crit rating. If you are already capped, disregard.

I've been asked why I use the +300 mastery several times.
I'm capped in raids ;p

I've thought maybe if I used the agility titles and the crit setting, and then I'd maybe be able to stop using Critical Eye trait for the extra 600 crit rating... But I've found that the titles+setting would only increase my crit by 368. So my setup works out well.


I just hope one day they will scale the True relics.


Here is some math:
This is only counting the Setting, Gem, and Legendary Title.
My current build provides: 2,358 Physical Mastery and 878 points of crit.

Now, if instead I used the True setting and Gem on both LI's as well as the +27 agility title, I would get: 2,620 Physical Mastery and 628 crit.

Gain of 262 Mastery, and a loss of 250 crit.

Originally Posted by Shredex

Here is some math:
This is only counting the Setting, Gem, and Legendary Title.
My current build provides: 2,358 Physical Mastery and 878 points of crit.

Now, if instead I used the True setting and Gem on both LI's as well as the +27 agility title, I would get: 2,620 Physical Mastery and 628 crit.

Gain of 262 Mastery, and a loss of 250 crit.

Well, I wouldn't suggest replacing the Gem. The 250 PM and huge crit boost is too good. If you just replace the titles, you roughly swap 60 PM for 60 Crit, plus the added bonus to parry. All things being equal, usually crit is worth about about 2:1 for PM. If you are always capped on crit, as I said before, don't bother.

Originally Posted by Shredex

I've been asked why I use the +300 mastery several times.
I'm capped in raids ;p

I really need to stop reading your posts, every time I do, I always go back to my hunter and figet with my gear/relics/whatever to squeeze a bit more of a number (agil/crit/etc.) out lol

Just curious though, what is your crit rating in raids?

Originally Posted by Shredex

That is just silly of you to say.
No matter what, a hunter is going to have to use an induction skill to gain more focus in a long fight.
I've tested these and it DOES increase your DPS to throw a barbed arrow in every 10 or so seconds.
Why does it? Well look at one of your other induction options to gain focus. Quick-Shot.

Silly? Orly?

Hunters must use induction skills to build focus, however, QS builds far more focus than barbed arrow if you build for quick shot, more focus means more pen shots, and more pen shots = more dps. While barbed arrow does more damage than QS, the longer induction and animation results in a clunkier rotation, essentially what I've found is that the speed of the skill is more important in this case than the damage of it.

Getting 2.1k single target DPS in endurance with 1 burg, 1 cpt on telling mark. Just by spamming a lot of quick shot and use focus skills when possible. Barbed when needed and swift when it's up. 5xhuntsman with faron set.

Originally Posted by tongra

Well, I wouldn't suggest replacing the Gem. The 250 PM and huge crit boost is too good. If you just replace the titles, you roughly swap 60 PM for 60 Crit, plus the added bonus to parry. All things being equal, usually crit is worth about about 2:1 for PM. If you are always capped on crit, as I said before, don't bother.

It's as I said before, I want my very most DPS available.
In raid I'm capped, so I'd be losing 60 mastery and not gaining any crit. Which doesn't really improve DPS. :]
And I can always swap in Bracer of the Huntsman to squeeze out a bit more crit.

Originally Posted by SCHawks73

Just curious though, what is your crit rating in raids?

With full raid buffs it's 11.7K-11.8K.

With self buffs + cappy crit: 11,503
http://i.imgur.com/5NJlr.jpg

Originally Posted by DutchEZmoder

Getting 2.1k single target DPS in endurance with 1 burg, 1 cpt on telling mark. Just by spamming a lot of quick shot and use focus skills when possible. Barbed when needed and swift when it's up. 5xhuntsman with faron set.

Yup, that's my rotation :]
With my build completely solo in precision stance I do 2,250-2,350 DPS till I run out of power.

Originally Posted by Smugo

Silly? Orly?

Hunters must use induction skills to build focus, however, QS builds far more focus than barbed arrow if you build for quick shot, more focus means more pen shots, and more pen shots = more dps. While barbed arrow does more damage than QS, the longer induction and animation results in a clunkier rotation, essentially what I've found is that the speed of the skill is more important in this case than the damage of it.

Doesn't hurt to throw in! I've honestly never seen my DPS lower when using barbed arrow. I do see it drop when I don't spend points in the legacy, though.
Where I really mainly use Barded Arrow is in the beginning of a fight when the tank needs time to build agro. I'll start with my melee skills including Improved Scourging Blow which removes the induction of the next Barbed Arrow.

With counting on quick shot, your counting on criting. What I like about Barbed arrow is that it's Guaranteed.

I should also mention a few situation where a raid was wiped but still completed due to the fact of all the fancy bleeds left on the beast :] (or with those filthy hipsing wargs)

Barbed Arrow = Insurance :]

Originally Posted by Shredex

With my build completely solo in precision stance I do 2,250-2,350 DPS till I run out of power.

To what mob? And how much your power lasts?

Originally Posted by Shredex

Doesn't hurt to throw in! I've honestly never seen my DPS lower when using barbed arrow. I do see it drop when I don't spend points in the legacy, though.
Where I really mainly use Barded Arrow is in the beginning of a fight when the tank needs time to build agro. I'll start with my melee skills including Improved Scourging Blow which removes the induction of the next Barbed Arrow.

With counting on quick shot, your counting on criting. What I like about Barbed arrow is that it's Guaranteed.

I should also mention a few situation where a raid was wiped but still completed due to the fact of all the fancy bleeds left on the beast :] (or with those filthy hipsing wargs)

Barbed Arrow = Insurance :]

QS has a lot of RNG associated with it, fortunately, sitting with 3 focus being the base condition the RNG has very little effect, regardless of crit or a bonus focus pip you can still follow with a PS, throwing in a swift bow every time its up is nice too. If you do it right you will always be able to follow any induction with a focus, and sometimes use two (I don't use faron, so that's 6 focus, not 4).

Bleed finishing off a boss is luck, if you wipe at 2k and the boss ticks down, an extra 2k at any point in the fight would have made it up as well, bleeds or direct damage.

Originally Posted by Smugo

Bleed finishing off a boss is luck, if you wipe at 2k and the boss ticks down, an extra 2k at any point in the fight would have made it up as well, bleeds or direct damage.

And... you would still be alive.

Originally Posted by Smugo

QS has a lot of RNG associated with it, fortunately, sitting with 3 focus being the base condition the RNG has very little effect, regardless of crit or a bonus focus pip you can still follow with a PS, throwing in a swift bow every time its up is nice too. If you do it right you will always be able to follow any induction with a focus, and sometimes use two (I don't use faron, so that's 6 focus, not 4).

Bleed finishing off a boss is luck, if you wipe at 2k and the boss ticks down, an extra 2k at any point in the fight would have made it up as well, bleeds or direct damage.

Why on earth would you not use the Faron set O_O

Are you trying to say throwing in a bleed makes you LOSE DPS? That would make me laugh.
And it wasn't 2K, it was 30K+.

Originally Posted by Smugo

Silly? Orly?

Hunters must use induction skills to build focus, however, QS builds far more focus than barbed arrow if you build for quick shot, more focus means more pen shots, and more pen shots = more dps. While barbed arrow does more damage than QS, the longer induction and animation results in a clunkier rotation, essentially what I've found is that the speed of the skill is more important in this case than the damage of it.

Completely agree. I find the induction of barbed arrow not worth the effort if I can get a QS and PenS/BldA off in the same time. You may have a point about bleeds, but only if the leg is present and for my build (fleetness, high crit rating, precision crit mag, crit mag relic) I prefer QS Crit. I haven't completely done the numbers on crit vs PMR but instinctively feel that +500 crit outweighs +250 PMR.

IMO you can do great single-target DPS with 4 skills only - QS, ISB, PenS and BldA. Add ROA (spam traited) to the mix if you're not worried about pulling a bunch of angry mobs or breaking stuns. And I've now finally (with the oil fix) found a use for split shot - to get my focus back and reset ROA.

I never use HS except as an opener now, and even then not always. 2.4sec for HS compared to QS/PenS/QS/BldA... do the maths

I don't know why everyone insists on using Strength Stance, I do much more DPS in Precision Stance with all of the crits I get. I can take down a 12-16k signature/elite mob before it even reaches me. I cut through on-level normal mobs like butter.

My rotation?

Focus (If I'm not focused already from being in Precision Stance)
Barbed Arrow (Slow)
Blood Arrow
Improved Penetrating Shot
Blood Arrow (again)
Improved Swift Bow

Usually they're dead before or at this point. If not, I finish them off with Blindside (if they're in melee range) and, if I have to, Improved Merciful Shot.

Originally Posted by Elderban

I don't know why everyone insists on using Strength Stance, I do much more DPS in Precision Stance with all of the crits I get. I can take down a 12-16k signature/elite mob before it even reaches me. I cut through on-level normal mobs like butter.

My rotation?

Focus (If I'm not focused already from being in Precision Stance)
Barbed Arrow (Slow)
Blood Arrow
Improved Penetrating Shot
Blood Arrow (again)
Improved Swift Bow

Usually they're dead before or at this point. If not, I finish them off with Blindside (if they're in melee range) and, if I have to, Improved Merciful Shot.

I dont know why you insist on talking about rotation for 12-16k signature mobs when OP is asking for a rotation for boss fights.

Well there can be no solid rotation for hunter, simply because it depends on focus generation and that is inconsistent.

It's just good to note to always keep Barbed Arrow up. Use Swift Bow for focus, keep Impr.Fleetness up, keep NH up when it's ready. And spam those Blood Arrows and Penetrating Shots

If you follow a guide of use this skill, then this skill, then this one, you can't have good DPS because what happens when you crit? Then you can better use Pen. Shot instead of a quick shot for example.

Use HS for the lols in a bossfight to see how high you can get.

The only use I've found for HS in ToO so far is when you have the -75% induction buff from Lightning Ring @Saruman

How about we see some parses to go with our rotations?

Here's a T2 Acid Challenge parse from me. (3 burgs were present)
This parse also includes screwing around by using HS and the fact that I have to stun one of the adds that comes in away from the group. (lost a bit of DPS)

http://i.imgur.com/WBDpr.png


Barbed Arrow should be used. If you are losing DPS by using Barbed Arrow then your rotation to put it in must be borked.

Originally Posted by SCHawks73

Just curious though, what is your crit rating in raids?

Originally Posted by Shredex

With full raid buffs it's 11.7K-11.8K.

With self buffs + cappy crit: 11,503
http://i.imgur.com/5NJlr.jpg

This is what I assumed you had, but like the "definition" of @$$.u.me, I wanted to clarify first.

(from a post by Alad. here on the forums)
Using the formula:
% = Yo + 1/[1 + K/(R/L - Xo)]

Where:
•R is the Rating to convert
•L is the level (generally the opponent's level, except for counter-stats like Critical Defence and Finesse, where I would expect it to be the player's level since it is your opponent who's supposed to convert his ratings after your counter-stat reduces them)
•K is a constant which defines the slope of the curve. (used 793.333)
•Xo is an offset to R/L (used 70)
•Yo is an offset in % (used .15)

I found that:
R/L = 11,862/75 = 158.16
R/L - Xo = 158.16 - 70 = 88.16
K/ (R/L - Xo) = 793.333/88.16 = 8.9987863
1 + (K/(R/L - Xo)) = 1 + 8.998763 = 9.9987863
1/(1+(K/(R/L - Xo))) = 1/9.9987863 = .1000121
Yo + 1/(1+(K/(R/L - Xo))) = .15 + .1000121 = .2500121 = 25% (rounded)

Meaning, you need 11,862 critical rating to have capped crit rating on a lvl 75 mob. Since you said you had 11.8k crit rating in a raid, you are correct in that you have capped crit, but only on the trash mobs. BUT, if you take into consideration the higher level (I think it's lvl 78, though not 100% sure) on the raid bosses, I fear the 11.8k is not enough to cap out... at least "on paper" (compared to CombatAnalysis):

Running the same numbers, but substituting L = 75 for L = 78 (level 78 mob), you will need 12,336 crit to cap out.

I guess it really doesn't matter a whole bunch as with the Acid boss, you are already showing an ACTUAL crit rate of nearly 50%, you seemed to want to run the numbers on the most possible mastery, so I figured I'd let you know about these figures (and if you really wanna rack your brain, Alad. has a huge and excellent post on all the formulas about calculating everything from mastery, crit and dev, to partial mits to outgoing heal ratings).

Originally Posted by SCHawks73

This is what I assumed you had, but like the "definition" of @$$.u.me, I wanted to clarify first.

(from a post by Alad. here on the forums)
Using the formula:
% = Yo + 1/[1 + K/(R/L - Xo)]

Where:
•R is the Rating to convert
•L is the level (generally the opponent's level, except for counter-stats like Critical Defence and Finesse, where I would expect it to be the player's level since it is your opponent who's supposed to convert his ratings after your counter-stat reduces them)
•K is a constant which defines the slope of the curve. (used 793.333)
•Xo is an offset to R/L (used 70)
•Yo is an offset in % (used .15)

I found that:
R/L = 11,862/75 = 158.16
R/L - Xo = 158.16 - 70 = 88.16
K/ (R/L - Xo) = 793.333/88.16 = 8.9987863
1 + (K/(R/L - Xo)) = 1 + 8.998763 = 9.9987863
1/(1+(K/(R/L - Xo))) = 1/9.9987863 = .1000121
Yo + 1/(1+(K/(R/L - Xo))) = .15 + .1000121 = .2500121 = 25% (rounded)

Meaning, you need 11,862 critical rating to have capped crit rating on a lvl 75 mob. Since you said you had 11.8k crit rating in a raid, you are correct in that you have capped crit, but only on the trash mobs. BUT, if you take into consideration the higher level (I think it's lvl 78, though not 100% sure) on the raid bosses, I fear the 11.8k is not enough to cap out... at least "on paper" (compared to CombatAnalysis):

Running the same numbers, but substituting L = 75 for L = 78 (level 78 mob), you will need 12,336 crit to cap out.

I guess it really doesn't matter a whole bunch as with the Acid boss, you are already showing an ACTUAL crit rate of nearly 50%, you seemed to want to run the numbers on the most possible mastery, so I figured I'd let you know about these figures (and if you really wanna rack your brain, Alad. has a huge and excellent post on all the formulas about calculating everything from mastery, crit and dev, to partial mits to outgoing heal ratings).

I replay later when my head stops hurting. lol

Originally Posted by DutchEZmoder

Well there can be no solid rotation for hunter, simply because it depends on focus generation and that is inconsistent.

It's just good to note to always keep Barbed Arrow up. Use Swift Bow for focus, keep Impr.Fleetness up, keep NH up when it's ready. And spam those Blood Arrows and Penetrating Shots

If you follow a guide of use this skill, then this skill, then this one, you can't have good DPS because what happens when you crit? Then you can better use Pen. Shot instead of a quick shot for example.

Use HS for the lols in a bossfight to see how high you can get.

You can't hold a solid rotation, but by giving some room for luck you cna have a very consistent rotation even with all the RNG associated with focus generation, it just takes time to train yourself never to use that second penshot that would empty your focus.