Thread: Ban the LIs in the moors!

Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon

I agree with this 100%, The LI system is for some classes so important, that removing it would make those classes unplayble. As Vincent said immagine a hunter with 15 sec NH, or a warden without careful step duration or ambush induction. LOL

Even if the pvp weapons with cretain benefits for a class seem a good idea overall, i can say that i dont trust the devs, not even a little bit! Looking at the current 'pvp audacity gear' bonuses atm, you'll realise that those bonuses for some classes are completely useless.

you mean that wardens cant solo tyrants anymore? i dont know if you where in moors yesterday but grothjunior soled ID tyrant and he can solo a well amount of creeps aswell. All that creeps need is trait bonuses and LI to get equil dps.

Originally Posted by Rugba

so let me get this straight.

champs with full audacity, yes?, fighting a warg with 1 audacity, they waste all cd's and can't win? lol sorry dude but they seriously suck if that is the case, even if the champs only have audacity 1 (which actually makes it easier cause the dps would be even higher) they should still easily faceroll a warg even without cd's.

now if the warg has audacity at 7 it is a different matter at least for my champ since I don't go super top end perfection grind, still all I would have to do is get the PVP gear and I would be right back to my point above.

i agree haha, on my warg i can only kill medioker champs thats with full audacity, flayer, buff pots and food (sometimes in shadow if the champ is bad). Good champs are so hard to kill, they have high dps, bubbles, its just insane.

Technically speaking, the Star-lit-crystals provide next to nothing for those with First Ages and don't even get those with 2nd Ages on par with those with FAs. Things won't be significantly different unless the majority of your Freeps were using Second Ages.

Originally Posted by Elilreth

you mean that wardens cant solo tyrants anymore? i dont know if you where in moors yesterday but grothjunior soled ID tyrant and he can solo a well amount of creeps aswell. All that creeps need is trait bonuses and LI to get equil dps.

Sure Freeps are OP, and I don´t play my RK in the Moors anymore because of that

But, most forum complaints show clearly that some Creeps have no idea how to battle some classes

Wardens, for example..power drain them. A Warden can´t kill a Defiler, if you fight him solo, he´ll most likely run away after having his power drained. If there are "several Creeps" the Warden should be dead within 15s once he´s out of power

It´s the same with RKs. If I´m out there with mixed traited (red and blue) I can kill 4 or 5 Creeps, as long as they don´t stun/disarm me.

Or Minstrels. Silence them. They can cure 2 silences. When silenced the 3rd time, they can´t do anything.

It´s definitly possible to kill 2 or 3 Creeps (as long as it´s not 3 Wargs). But if it´s 4+ Creeps, it doesn´t matter whether the Freep is a Warden/Minstrel/RK/Champ, the Creeps are doing something seriously wrong then.

Originally Posted by Chris91

Sure Freeps are OP, and I don´t play my RK in the Moors anymore because of that

But, most forum complaints show clearly that some Creeps have no idea how to battle some classes

Wardens, for example..power drain them. A Warden can´t kill a Defiler, if you fight him solo, he´ll most likely run away after having his power drained. If there are "several Creeps" the Warden should be dead within 15s once he´s out of power

It´s the same with RKs. If I´m out there with mixed traited (red and blue) I can kill 4 or 5 Creeps, as long as they don´t stun/disarm me.

Or Minstrels. Silence them. They can cure 2 silences. When silenced the 3rd time, they can´t do anything.

It´s definitly possible to kill 2 or 3 Creeps (as long as it´s not 3 Wargs). But if it´s 4+ Creeps, it doesn´t matter whether the Freep is a Warden/Minstrel/RK/Champ, the Creeps are doing something seriously wrong then.

Out of curiosity, how many creeps have you played?

Originally Posted by Sulfur

Removing LI's wouldn't break classes into unplayability, get a grip. LI's only came out in Moria, yet LOTRO existed for...4-5 books previous to that?

Now see as you can see I have been around for a long time and comparing lotro pvp pre-LIs and post- LIs is not the same. Do you by any chance remember what combat was like in SoA.

1)Firstly, CC was way more powerful, enough time to get back into range to get inductions off.
2)There was no resolute aim, yet there was no real need for it because of 1) and
3)Combat was way slower then, no fast skills, no immediate, by far less interrupts as well as
4)Mitigations were comparably lower creepside while mitigations and avoidances (hunterwise esp.) were way higher.

It was not all good then, far from it, but the tools the hunter had were implemented more fluently and efficiently into gameplay.
So let us compare it with PvP with and without LIs.

1)CCs less powerful by far. Pots, brands, DR all not in favour for my class especially. Barely time to get any induction off or get into range if it works at all.
2) We have resolute aim which will give us no setback of inductions for 15 seconds (30 seconds legacied), and we need it because of 1) and
3) Combat sped up significantly since SoM. As usual induction based classes suffer here, since while instant casts are sped up any inductions are not affected. The implementations of immediate skills allow rotations dealing high damage within no time at all. Since SoM it takes one creep to effectively take out a hunters damage simply by hitting him and setting his inductions back. Still, independent from our trait setup, to effectively use focus skills we have to fit inductions into the rotation, as we should since we are based this way.
Right now I can use needful haste 33% of the time or, when traited blue 50% of the time. So the rest of the time we are highly vulnerable and can be taken out easily rendering us useless. Now imagine this legacy taken away.
4) While mitigations and avoidances are non-existant creepside due to finesse (though this decreases significantly with pots), the same goes for us, I have higher mitigations and avoidances than ever, yet can not use any of it due to finesse, while medium armour is basically light armour leather plated for the looks.

So yes apart from legacies that I have become used to like mutipliers, bleed and BH damage my class would become unplayable. I reckon other classes would have to take hits too, but I only play the hunter on 75 and in the moors so I can only comment there.

Originally Posted by VincentVanPort

Now see as you can see I have been around for a long time and comparing lotro pvp pre-LIs and post- LIs is not the same. Do you by any chance remember what combat was like in SoA.

1)Firstly, CC was way more powerful, enough time to get back into range to get inductions off.
2)There was no resolute aim, yet there was no real need for it because of 1) and
3)Combat was way slower then, no fast skills, no immediate, by far less interrupts as well as
4)Mitigations were comparably lower creepside while mitigations and avoidances (hunterwise esp.) were way higher.

It was not all good then, far from it, but the tools the hunter had were implemented more fluently and efficiently into gameplay.
So let us compare it with PvP with and without LIs.

1)CCs less powerful by far. Pots, brands, DR all not in favour for my class especially. Barely time to get any induction off or get into range if it works at all.
2) We have resolute aim which will give us no setback of inductions for 15 seconds (30 seconds legacied), and we need it because of 1) and
3) Combat sped up significantly since SoM. As usual induction based classes suffer here, since while instant casts are sped up any inductions are not affected. The implementations of immediate skills allow rotations dealing high damage within no time at all. Since SoM it takes one creep to effectively take out a hunters damage simply by hitting him and setting his inductions back. Still, independent from our trait setup, to effectively use focus skills we have to fit inductions into the rotation, as we should since we are based this way.
Right now I can use needful haste 33% of the time or, when traited blue 50% of the time. So the rest of the time we are highly vulnerable and can be taken out easily rendering us useless. Now imagine this legacy taken away.
4) While mitigations and avoidances are non-existant creepside due to finesse (though this decreases significantly with pots), the same goes for us, I have higher mitigations and avoidances than ever, yet can not use any of it due to finesse, while medium armour is basically light armour leather plated for the looks.

So yes apart from legacies that I have become used to like mutipliers, bleed and BH damage my class would become unplayable. I reckon other classes would have to take hits too, but I only play the hunter on 75 and in the moors so I can only comment there.

Considering all of this, I would argue that taking away of LI's would make hunters a balanced class.

Originally Posted by VincentVanPort

Now see as you can see I have been around for a long time and comparing lotro pvp pre-LIs and post- LIs is not the same. Do you by any chance remember what combat was like in SoA.

1)Firstly, CC was way more powerful, enough time to get back into range to get inductions off.
2)There was no resolute aim, yet there was no real need for it because of 1) and
3)Combat was way slower then, no fast skills, no immediate, by far less interrupts as well as
4)Mitigations were comparably lower creepside while mitigations and avoidances (hunterwise esp.) were way higher.

It was not all good then, far from it, but the tools the hunter had were implemented more fluently and efficiently into gameplay.
So let us compare it with PvP with and without LIs.

1)CCs less powerful by far. Pots, brands, DR all not in favour for my class especially. Barely time to get any induction off or get into range if it works at all.
2) We have resolute aim which will give us no setback of inductions for 15 seconds (30 seconds legacied), and we need it because of 1) and
3) Combat sped up significantly since SoM. As usual induction based classes suffer here, since while instant casts are sped up any inductions are not affected. The implementations of immediate skills allow rotations dealing high damage within no time at all. Since SoM it takes one creep to effectively take out a hunters damage simply by hitting him and setting his inductions back. Still, independent from our trait setup, to effectively use focus skills we have to fit inductions into the rotation, as we should since we are based this way.
Right now I can use needful haste 33% of the time or, when traited blue 50% of the time. So the rest of the time we are highly vulnerable and can be taken out easily rendering us useless. Now imagine this legacy taken away.
4) While mitigations and avoidances are non-existant creepside due to finesse (though this decreases significantly with pots), the same goes for us, I have higher mitigations and avoidances than ever, yet can not use any of it due to finesse, while medium armour is basically light armour leather plated for the looks.

So yes apart from legacies that I have become used to like mutipliers, bleed and BH damage my class would become unplayable. I reckon other classes would have to take hits too, but I only play the hunter on 75 and in the moors so I can only comment there.

"2) We have resolute aim which will give us no setback of inductions for 15 seconds (30 seconds legacied), and we need it because of 1) and"

This doesnt help with interrupts of course.

Originally Posted by Haunt123

/signed

This is a great idea. Adding PvP specific weapons instead of LIs in the moors would also allow Devs to adjust the weapons for more balance...

BAHAHAHA...The Devs wouldn't know balance if it ganked them and called them momma! If Turbine was really interested in balancing the Moors, it would already have been done!

Originally Posted by Elilreth

you mean that wardens cant solo tyrants anymore? i dont know if you where in moors yesterday but grothjunior soled ID tyrant and he can solo a well amount of creeps aswell. All that creeps need is trait bonuses and LI to get equil dps.

First of all yeah even then they could solo tyrants. I could probably solo tyrants with a low lvl 65 NON legendary spear and jav. and maybe without wearing any armour. Whats the point in it? Wasting 2 hours of your playtime to kill a tyrant and capture a keep, hoping that no creeps will appear during that? The OP'ness in shield line for wardens got a massive boost with U6, and it was 100% aimed for pve issues, as wardens were in terrible possition back then. But then again, what a shield-traited warden can offer in the moors? I dont know if you play warden, but I am happy to answer you: NOTHING! When a warden trait shield in the moors, he is pretty much useless, with dps compared to the creeps' ICMR, and no abillities to protect other freeps. (like Shield wall) Every creep xcept r0 greenies maybe, can run away from a shield traited warden, or just ignore them in group fights, as they are of no use.

On topic, the legacies i was refairing at, if removed, would have a huge effect for every dps warden, to the point that would make the class, i wont say useless, but FAR less effective. For example immagine having to stand still to use a 5 seconds induction to get an ambush off... or careful step duration lasts only for 20 secs...

Anyways, theres no point discussing it in my opinion, as LI's wont be removed from the moors for no reason. If the devs actually wanted to do something for pvp, they would have done it LONG time ago... The only change i can see happening is adding a bird or a squirrel near Lug gy.

Better Idea and would be easier and allow Turbine to put forth new content for the largest percentage of the Player Base.


BAN THE MOORS

Originally Posted by NickStern

Better Idea and would be easier and allow Turbine to put forth new content for the largest percentage of the Player Base.


BAN THE MOORS

How nice of you to enlighten us with your idea, lots of people play moors and are only vip for that. So if they stop the moors they get less money resulting in less pve content for you to enjoy. Pve gets content every update so i dont see why you are whining

Originally Posted by NickStern

Better Idea and would be easier and allow Turbine to put forth new content for the largest percentage of the Player Base.


BAN THE MOORS

You're obviously a pure pve'r so, what do you care if a zone that you've never stepped foot in, or an aspect of the game you've never participated in, gets removed or not?

This thread in the pve section is better suited for you:

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ip-Quests-Solo

Please keep it civil in here, people.

Originally Posted by KillGore81

You're obviously a pure pve'r so, what do you care if a zone that you've never stepped foot in, or an aspect of the game you've never participated in, gets removed or not?

This thread in the pve section is better suited for you:

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ip-Quests-Solo

What Happens when people assume based on facts not in evidence is they show a lack of thought.
You are very wrong I do go to the moors not as often as I would like or as often as many but I go for the change of pace that it represents. it is very simply a side game to the main game. PVMP was added after launch an after thought away to pull in more cash nothing more nothing less.
It was never and will never be the main area of concentration for Turbine.

The QQ ers and Whiners that do not get that make the community less then what it can be and should be.
I too await the Game that Pulls the Minority PVMPers the QQers the Whiners away to stay.

unless I am mistaken the PVP forum threads are still part of the Open LOTRO Forum and anyone is free to express thier oppinion. You are allowed yours and I wont tell you were to go post or read, I am entiteled to Mine and will post where I see fit.

The only solution is to give Creeps LIs. Who doesn't want to level up their very own pair of legendary spider fangs?!?!

Originally Posted by NickStern

I love pve.

I found another thread for you that's more up your alley.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...rafting-Quests

Originally Posted by KillGore81

I found another thread for you that's more up your alley.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...rafting-Quests

Tried to find one up your ally but not one with One syllable words.

Originally Posted by NickStern

What Happens when people assume based on facts not in evidence is they show a lack of thought.
You are very wrong I do go to the moors not as often as I would like or as often as many but I go for the change of pace that it represents. it is very simply a side game to the main game. PVMP was added after launch an after thought away to pull in more cash nothing more nothing less.
It was never and will never be the main area of concentration for Turbine.

The QQ ers and Whiners that do not get that make the community less then what it can be and should be.
I too await the Game that Pulls the Minority PVMPers the QQers the Whiners away to stay.

unless I am mistaken the PVP forum threads are still part of the Open LOTRO Forum and anyone is free to express thier oppinion. You are allowed yours and I wont tell you were to go post or read, I am entiteled to Mine and will post where I see fit.

By the way PvP was in this game with launch. Sorry to say but PvP is not a sidegame anymore. Not sure if it ever was though it was meant to be. Look up dailystats to see how many people play every day, I bet if anyone would parse how many people enter orthanc each day or the difference would be lower than expected. Anyway close to everybody goes to the moors, close to everybody visits instances, and everybody grinds LIs. You do not call these sidegames, do you?

Edit: By the way, the moors is the only constant in-game. When Carn Dum was inaccessible, what did you do? Go to the moors. Fully equipped no more raids to attend, what do you do? Go to the moors. There were no prerequisites for entering for a long time. You could join the war anywhere and jump into action. The moors is what kept the game running for so long for so many people. It starts to go wrong right now when you hinder people of entering and being successful. Like audacity. It has started already but if you make the moors unplayable or only playable for a small elite of players you will lose customers instead of milking the cash cow.

I don't understand the OPs idea.

Ok, lets say they ban LIs...they'd need to give us weapons of SOME sort. Or are you suggesting that we fight with bare hands?

OK, so we get weapons. Their strength would be determined by the same people who balanced the strength of LIs...so they'd be functionally equivalent in terms of dps.

Question...what would it matter?

Take away a grinded annoyong LI mechanic, give freeps free weapons...ok, sounds good to me.

The exact same issues would still exist. The MECHANICS and core structure of the moors needs to be examined. Not something as trivial and petty as "ban LIs".

And ANY creep who thinks they have it harder now than they did in SoA is crazy or on some serious drugs. Because creepside is WAY more powerful and easier than those days. By several orders of magnitude.

Originally Posted by Thane9

And ANY creep who thinks they have it harder now than they did in SoA is crazy or on some serious drugs. Because creepside is WAY more powerful and easier than those days. By several orders of magnitude.

Or, you know, just wasn't here back then. Though I haven't seen a lot of references to "how it was back then." Most of the comments seem to be about the perceived imbalance now. We may well be a lot more powerful now than then but, mechanically, the balance is still off.

Originally Posted by Thane9

And ANY creep who thinks they have it harder now than they did in SoA is crazy or on some serious drugs. Because creepside is WAY more powerful and easier than those days. By several orders of magnitude.

What the #### are you talking about?

Originally Posted by l4j

Or, you know, just wasn't here back then. Though I haven't seen a lot of references to "how it was back then." Most of the comments seem to be about the perceived imbalance now. We may well be a lot more powerful now than then but, mechanically, the balance is still off.

The "balance" is not the core issue. The core issue is that PvMp is NOT mirrored PvP. They are 2 seperate games. Creepside does not require 75 levels of grind, LI grinds, Virtue grinds, Raid grinds, etc...just to get to the moors and compete.

Creepside is a quick log in and play game. It's apples and oranges.

Originally Posted by Untg99

What the #### are you talking about?

What part is confusing to you? In SoA creeps were SIGNIFICANTLY less powerful relative to freeps. In SoA there was zero PvE means for ranking.

Creepside was very underpowered and the ONLY way creeps could win was via significant numerical advantage.

Currently it's not beyond reason for a creep to get R4 in just a weekend of PvE, no need to even fight a freep even once. Store bought skills are very powerful if they choose to spend TP.

Zerg up a little and fight in the zergball at STAB for a month and it's entirelly resonable to hit some of the middle ranks in just those few short weeks.

NO WAY this could have been done in SoA. It took FREEPS months and months and months in the moors to hit those ranks. Let alone creeps who were consistantly a full rank less than their freepside opponents. Freepside opponents who had a 50 level grind disadvantage to even get to the moors.

Now it's reasonable to believe a solo creep in a good build played well can match up 1v1 against a freep with CONSIDERABLY more time invested in their toon outside the moors.

Wargs in flayer, WL/Defilers spec'd properly, Bugs who know how to kite and use the skills they have at higher ranks, really only Reavers are weaker now than they've ever been...they peaked awhile back...

Are there imbalances? Sure. Are some of them problematic and bad for the game. YES.

But the idea that creepside is not getting better is just silly. They've increased the playability of creepside significantly over the years. And a solid player willing to invest a similar amount of time and effort that freeps are required to will do just fine creepside.

Originally Posted by Thane9

The "balance" is not the core issue. The core issue is that PvMp is NOT mirrored PvP. They are 2 seperate games. Creepside does not require 75 levels of grind, LI grinds, Virtue grinds, Raid grinds, etc...just to get to the moors and compete.

Creepside is a quick log in and play game. It's apples and oranges.

If It was easily viewable how much it actually takes as a freep to 'compete' as far as PvE grind, I can guarantee, tears would be shed.

Originally Posted by Thane9

What part is confusing to you? In SoA creeps were SIGNIFICANTLY less powerful relative to freeps. In SoA there was zero PvE means for ranking.

Creepside was very underpowered and the ONLY way creeps could win was via significant numerical advantage.

Currently it's not beyond reason for a creep to get R4 in just a weekend of PvE, no need to even fight a freep even once. Store bought skills are very powerful if they choose to spend TP.

Zerg up a little and fight in the zergball at STAB for a month and it's entirelly resonable to hit some of the middle ranks in just those few short weeks.

NO WAY this could have been done in SoA. It took FREEPS months and months and months in the moors to hit those ranks. Let alone creeps who were consistantly a full rank less than their freepside opponents. Freepside opponents who had a 50 level grind disadvantage to even get to the moors.

Now it's reasonable to believe a solo creep in a good build played well can match up 1v1 against a freep with CONSIDERABLY more time invested in their toon outside the moors.

I see. So because of PvE rankng, creeps are no longer underpowered?
PvE ranking is just as available to freeps, who by the way, have more of everything you could possibly think of.

Ranks are now easier to get. That makes things balanced in your opinion?

Originally Posted by Thane9

Wargs in flayer, WL/Defilers spec'd properly, Bugs who know how to kite and use the skills they have at higher ranks, really only Reavers are weaker now than they've ever been...they peaked awhile back...

Are there imbalances? Sure. Are some of them problematic and bad for the game. YES.

But the idea that creepside is not getting better is just silly. They've increased the playability of creepside significantly over the years. And a solid player willing to invest a similar amount of time and effort that freeps are required to will do just fine creepside.

That wargs in flayer and wl/defilers is so obvious of a champ bias it's not funny. Unfortunately since audacity and warg/weaver changes you can't faceroll these classes blindfolded anymore. Does that make PvP as a whole balanced?

Creepside is getting better, sure. But in comparison to the improvements freeps are/have been getting? There is no comparison to be made here.

Originally Posted by Thane9

And a solid player willing to invest a similar amount of time and effort that freeps are required to will do just fine creepside.

Go ahead. Roll a reaver. Fight a skilled champion/minstrel and see how far you get.

Originally Posted by Untg99

What the #### are you talking about?

Don't worry, he is based completely off freep goggles and how badly he does in a solo situation and bases his judgement off that, never mind about Group vs Group or Raid vs Raid.

Originally Posted by Thane9

The "balance" is not the core issue. The core issue is that PvMp is NOT mirrored PvP. They are 2 seperate games. Creepside does not require 75 levels of grind, LI grinds, Virtue grinds, Raid grinds, etc...just to get to the moors and compete.

"Compete." You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

There is obviously a broader margin between a minimum entry level Freep (Level 40 - which makes a Wargie's mouth water when we see one) and a fully leveled and geared Freep, and a Rank 0 to Rank 15 Creep. But "competitive" starts somewhere in the mid-ranges for both groups. And, by mid range, I mean rank 5 or 6 or so for Creeps, and at least level 75 with Guild class armor and a decently traited weapon. I will argue that you don't need to be "fully geared" to have fun Freepside in the Moors.

If you feel you need to, that's cool. But you also have the option of waiting until you're fully kitted out before you even get into the moors - an option the Creeps don't have. They can get a few ranks doing pure PvE, but that's not the point. Worse, they still won't have enough Commendations to buy all the skills they've earned.

The other thread I keep hearing from some players Freepside. How much of a "Grind" it is to level up their character. To anyone who considers it a grind, I would forward that they are missing the point of the game. LoTRO has hours and hours of content for the main game. You don't need top level gear, maxed out virtues, etc., in order to enjoy the game.

If your entire focus is to get to level cap and go out into the Moors to PvMP, you're probably playing the wrong game. (generic "you" here, just to be clear.) If your entire focus is to get maxed out and do end game content, then your issue isn't with the Moors. It's a generic issue with where the developers put reward points. But it still comes back to the perception of grind.

Originally Posted by Thane9

Creepside is a quick log in and play game. It's apples and oranges.

So, I would argue, is Freepside. In fact, a low level freep fighting on-level mobs is relatively more powerful than a Greenie Creep. I've never argued that they're not different games. But I will argue that the Freeps have that whole other game to level and gear with, while those who choose to play Creepside have far fewer options.

You can eat both apples and oranges as a Freep. We just get sour grapes.

Originally Posted by Untg99

If It was easily viewable how much it actually takes as a freep to 'compete' as far as PvE grind, I can guarantee, tears would be shed.
.

I agree. The PvE grind freepside is IMMENSE. For long term freeps it's been multiplied by needing to cap out over and over and over. New freeps obviously have it easy because they just need to grind once....until the next expansion that is. But for those of us who have been through all the LI grinds since MoM alone, it's an insane amount of work.

Originally Posted by Untg99

I see. So because of PvE rankng, creeps are no longer underpowered?
PvE ranking is just as available to freeps, who by the way, have more of everything you could possibly think of.

Ranks are now easier to get. That makes things balanced in your opinion?.

No, Ranks are easier to get = creeps get higher ranks faster = creeps get competative faster. At R9 most creep classes are pretty close to balanced if they pick their fights carefully. AND play as a creep not as a freep.


Secondly, there is only one real measurable metric in the game, thats renown/infamy gains. And on Landy...can;t say I keep up with the other servers, Infamy gains nearly every day are significantly higher than Renown gains.

Originally Posted by Untg99

That wargs in flayer and wl/defilers is so obvious of a champ bias it's not funny. Unfortunately since audacity and warg/weaver changes you can't faceroll these classes blindfolded anymore. Does that make PvP as a whole balanced?.

Champ bias? All I hear is whining about how champs are OP. Either we're OP or we're not. And if we're OP and there's creeps out there that can compete then what does that make those creeps?

PvP "as a whole" is an INSANELY complex and complicated idea. And frankly I hope we NEVER see that much balance because it'd reduce the game to tic/tac/toe to be that balanced.

Originally Posted by Untg99

Creepside is getting better, sure. But in comparison to the improvements freeps are/have been getting? There is no comparison to be made here.

You are right. There's no comparison. Creeps have gotten more powerful than they were at a MUCH steeper increase.

It's silly to think otherwise. Do you even remember SoA? I do. I could take 4-5 creeps with my Champ solo, without burning all my cooldowns. ANY 2 creeps of reasonable rank...lets say 1 month of time played will DESTROY a solo freep now. I'm not saying there aren't still issues, but it's FAR better than it was.

Originally Posted by Stevo6

Go ahead. Roll a reaver. Fight a skilled champion/minstrel and see how far you get.

I have a reaver. And he's FAR more powerful relative to freeps than he was in SoA. No doubt. Not even a question. And I haven't even bought store skills for him.

Originally Posted by Thane9

Secondly, there is only one real measurable metric in the game, thats renown/infamy gains. And on Landy...can;t say I keep up with the other servers, Infamy gains nearly every day are significantly higher than Renown gains.

http://dailystats.theblackappendage....Renown%20Ratio

How to read it: If the blue line is beneath .5, there is more renown gain than inf. If the blue line is above .5, there is more inf gain than renown.

So other than the last 2-3 months, freeps have been getting more renown consistently. I believe this switch (based on observations from E) is due to more creeps being rolled (thus more pve inf) and less and less freeps coming out consistently.

Originally Posted by Thane9

It's silly to think otherwise. Do you even remember SoA? I do. I could take 4-5 creeps with my Champ solo, without burning all my cooldowns. ANY 2 creeps of reasonable rank...lets say 1 month of time played will DESTROY a solo freep now. I'm not saying there aren't still issues, but it's FAR better than it was.

You sir, are very much stuck in the past. SOA was 5 years ago... There is no point in comparing then to now. As you said, they are "apples to oranges". Yay, you were insanely OP in SoA, you (champs) can still take 2-3 creeps of any rank (as long as they don't have a healer) if you are good. And just the fact that it takes 2 creeps to kill 1 freep? Ya, that's not balanced in any way. It should be 1:1 imho. That is the idea of balance. Yay, it's better than it was, but it's still not good enough. Stop focusing on how it has changed and think about what needs to change to get better.

Originally Posted by Thane9

ANY 2 creeps of reasonable rank...lets say 1 month of time played will DESTROY a solo freep now.

This isn't true.

Originally Posted by Thane9

I agree. The PvE grind freepside is IMMENSE. For long term freeps it's been multiplied by needing to cap out over and over and over. New freeps obviously have it easy because they just need to grind once....until the next expansion that is. But for those of us who have been through all the LI grinds since MoM alone, it's an insane amount of work.





No, Ranks are easier to get = creeps get higher ranks faster = creeps get competative faster. At R9 most creep classes are pretty close to balanced if they pick their fights carefully. AND play as a creep not as a freep.


Secondly, there is only one real measurable metric in the game, thats renown/infamy gains. And on Landy...can;t say I keep up with the other servers, Infamy gains nearly every day are significantly higher than Renown gains.



Champ bias? All I hear is whining about how champs are OP. Either we're OP or we're not. And if we're OP and there's creeps out there that can compete then what does that make those creeps?

PvP "as a whole" is an INSANELY complex and complicated idea. And frankly I hope we NEVER see that much balance because it'd reduce the game to tic/tac/toe to be that balanced.



You are right. There's no comparison. Creeps have gotten more powerful than they were at a MUCH steeper increase.

It's silly to think otherwise. Do you even remember SoA? I do. I could take 4-5 creeps with my Champ solo, without burning all my cooldowns. ANY 2 creeps of reasonable rank...lets say 1 month of time played will DESTROY a solo freep now. I'm not saying there aren't still issues, but it's FAR better than it was.



I have a reaver. And he's FAR more powerful relative to freeps than he was in SoA. No doubt. Not even a question. And I haven't even bought store skills for him.

I asked this once and I will ask it again.....when did they start selling crack in the LOTRO store?

Creeps have gotten better since the dawn of time, yes. But SO HAVE FREEPS! And at a drastically different rate! Freeps have gotten lazy with the soloable ezmode PvE and expect it to carry over to the moors. The devs gave it to them. Creeps are nothing more than glorified NPCs for freeps anymore. If you can't see that, clean off your freep goggles and see the moors as they really are.

Originally Posted by Thane9

Champ bias? All I hear is whining about how champs are OP. Either we're OP or we're not. And if we're OP and there's creeps out there that can compete then what does that make those creeps?



It's silly to think otherwise. Do you even remember SoA? I do. I could take 4-5 creeps with my Champ solo, without burning all my cooldowns. ANY 2 creeps of reasonable rank...lets say 1 month of time played will DESTROY a solo freep now. I'm not saying there aren't still issues, but it's FAR better than it was.



I have a reaver. And he's FAR more powerful relative to freeps than he was in SoA. No doubt. Not even a question. And I haven't even bought store skills for him.

You tried to justify that you are not biased by your champ. then you bring your champ right back into it. You cannot take 4-5 creeps on at once the same way anymore. That does not make things balanced - that's a champ bias.

You ignoring freeps upgrades since that time period is like comparing a rake to a 0.50 cal machine gun.

I would also like to collect screenshots that will show you what gear is 'neccesary' for a freep to use to compete. I'll take it closer to home and get champ screenshots, so you cant call me out on a bias.

Creeps should get better passives, like legacies, that unlock after certain ranks. Each new rank will make the total available points spendable on these new legacy passives increase. Commendations would not be used to increase the rank of the legacy but could be used to increase the tier (like tiers start at 2 can go up to 6).

These passives would be different for each class (4) as well as unique (2) for each race.

Some Examples:

Tyrants Prized Blade of the Northern Empire: +5% Melee Skill Damage +15% Melee Skill Crit Multiplier; Class: Reaver

Shaman Sharpened Teeth of Gothglash: +20% From stealth damage; Class: Warg

Battle Staff of Carn Dum: +15% Outgoing healing +15% Incoming Healing; Class: Defiler

Armor of General Talug's Personal Guard: -60s CD on "Get a Grip!" +5% Chance to Block; Race: Uruk

(these values would be at max rank [9])

I believe something like this could possibly solve the balance issue.

Originally Posted by MagneticThor

Creeps should get better passives, like legacies, that unlock after certain ranks. Each new rank will make the total available points spendable on these new legacy passives increase. Commendations would not be used to increase the rank of the legacy but could be used to increase the tier (like tiers start at 2 can go up to 6).

These passives would be different for each class (4) as well as unique (2) for each race.

Some Examples:

Tyrants Prized Blade of the Northern Empire: +5% Melee Skill Damage +15% Melee Skill Crit Multiplier; Class: Reaver

Shaman Sharpened Teeth of Gothglash: +20% From stealth damage; Class: Warg

Battle Staff of Carn Dum: +15% Outgoing healing +15% Incoming Healing; Class: Defiler

Armor of General Talug's Personal Guard: -60s CD on "Get a Grip!" +5% Chance to Block; Race: Uruk

(these values would be at max rank [9])

I believe something like this could possibly solve the balance issue.

I must admit, I do like this idea (as long as comm costs aren't ridiculous like they currently are).

Only thing I can think of is come up with a system on Creepside similar to LI's. That idea of pvmp specific weapons seems like a good idea but a little bland. What are they gonna put on the burglar weapons for example? Crit multiplier and Positional damage? Alot of those ideas were why LI's were created, they wouldn't wanna go backwards.

Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk

This isn't true.

As a halfway to R14 champion I'll second that. If I were to say comparatively between then and now even with the slower combat creepside is now at a greater disadvantage than ever.

If you take in to account that most if not every situation in general isn't comprised of sufficiently ranked creeps (and always has been) its mostly if not always been freep skewed. The two extremes (ranked vs unranked) are horrendously seperate, and while good creeps are capable of impressive play, even moderate freeps are capable of much more.

But that isn't really news to anyone who plays more than one toon, so let's leave the unenlightened to their fantasies.

Originally Posted by Samus1111111

I must admit, I do like this idea (as long as comm costs aren't ridiculous like they currently are).

They'll cost 15k comms, cap is still 10k. Joke's on you, creeps.