Discussion: Ban the LIs in the moors!

I think that would be the only reasonable idea at this point. Freeps are getting more and more damage while creeps just sit on their asses and watch getting farmed in equally numbered raids. The new update is once more focused towards freep domination. I'm starting to think i won't get in the moors anymore. I don't mind the commas grind but heck, if the unbalance is hat obvious and none moves their backside even for an inch to improve something I realyl see no point

WHAAAAAT?

Creeps stand an equal chance? You must be joking!

Why dont you just say remove the LI-lets get Op with store-system?

Envoyé par Stevo6

WHAAAAAT?

Creeps stand an equal chance? You must be joking!

Nah i said equall numbered raids. We all know we don't satnd a chance.

I'd be all in favor for it, garbage grind anyways. Pvp specific weapons with pvp specific boosts would be far better.

I'm all for LI removal outside the moors as well. Stupid grind that has been poorly implemented since day one. But, like everything else equally stupid, Turbine is making bank off it so it shall remain.

Some days I still run around with my Captain's Arm equipped.

Envoyé par Sulfur

I'd be all in favor for it, garbage grind anyways. Pvp specific weapons with pvp specific boosts would be far better.

I second this.

If it means I'm not getting 3 burning embers DoTs and 1 wizards fire DoTs for 55 seconds, I'm all for it

Envoyé par Daec

I second this.

I honestly don't. The LI-system already added legacies to important to let go to any class, that might change the way it can be played drastically. If the impact wouldn't be this big I'd scond it, but I am not giving up BH damage and Needful Haste duration for a bonus that the devs believe to be "PvP-specific", how much is my heartseeker power cost going to decrease now?

Envoyé par DreagonMK

I'm all for LI removal outside the moors as well. Stupid grind that has been poorly implemented since day one. But, like everything else equally stupid, Turbine is making bank off it so it shall remain.

Some days I still run around with my Captain's Arm equipped.

You can really pull an arm off a Captain and beat Freeps over the head with it?

Reminds me of Planescape Torment

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

Envoyé par Sulfur

I'd be all in favor for it, garbage grind anyways. Pvp specific weapons with pvp specific boosts would be far better.

That's a really good idea, I would love to see that.

Envoyé par Sulfur

I'd be all in favor for it, garbage grind anyways. Pvp specific weapons with pvp specific boosts would be far better.

F that last thing I want is more garbage, the armor is bad enough....

Envoyé par VincentVanPort

I honestly don't. The LI-system already added legacies to important to let go to any class, that might change the way it can be played drastically. If the impact wouldn't be this big I'd scond it, but I am not giving up BH damage and Needful Haste duration for a bonus that the devs believe to be "PvP-specific", how much is my heartseeker power cost going to decrease now?

So you're against it because you'd have to play different?

Envoyé par Daec

So you're against it because you'd have to play different?

No, he's against it because he can't 1 -2 shot creeps from camo if he loses the BH damage legacy...

Envoyé par Sulfur

I'd be all in favor for it, garbage grind anyways. Pvp specific weapons with pvp specific boosts would be far better.

Agreed. Easier to balance would be my take.

(For the fact that my LM is still loathing LIs grind and rewind and grind some more LI system. And the other fact, my wargie keeps begging me to retire and never wish for wargie cosmetics or audacity ever. Annnnd, that's Okay, the Freeps on my server are fat enuff .)

Yeah, I've been wishing we would get moors-only LI's for a while now, as well as more jewellery which allegedly is supposed to come out with RoR. It should only help the balance as well.

Or why not just use the moors buff to make all LI's do the same damage and have the same ratings regardless of rank (only while in the moors)?

I mean, what does this buff actually do outside of hunter DF anyway?

/signed

This is a great idea. Adding PvP specific weapons instead of LIs in the moors would also allow Devs to adjust the weapons for more balance...

Ban Freeps from the moors, they are OP!
Problem solved.

Envoyé par Daec

So you're against it because you'd have to play different?

No because I could not play at all. What am I supposed to do after 15 seconds? Regardless of trait setup there is no induction that will go off. Fact is, legacies have a huge impact on the playability of our classes. There is a huge difference between just traiting different or removing a whole set of abilities and factors for every class that we had inherit for 4 years now. And all of it just for PvP. For balance that isn't even going to happen then. The best way is just getting rid of the DPS differences between third- first ages and balancing everything around this. You can even dish out standard equip for every class, then you can think about balancing.

The problem all along has been where the focus is. The main game is PvE and the Epic and the quest content and what have you. "Normal" characters are built for that environment and should be built for that environment. The adjustments shouldn't be made to the majority side - since a large number of players will never experience PvMP.

How it should be done is to set up Freeps for their world, then balance the Creeps so they are A: fun to play, even at lower ranks. B: a decent challenge for the Freeps. And C: Well balanced across the board.

Yes, there should be rewards for Creeps as they rank up. Honestly, I would suggest that a mid rank Creep should be an even match for a "well geared" (not exceptionally geared - but the broadly considered decent level of kit) Freep, with a high rank Creep being something that most Freeps are actually scared of.

Rank 15 is Tyrant. You shouldn't be a Pansy. You should have unranked Freeps running away when you take the field.

It'll never happen, I know. The balance really isn't there. Probably never will be. One of my personal favorite examples is Track. Hunters get it as a normal skill and can slot a range extension on it and can track from stealth. They have longer range and half the cooldown of a Warg track - that until P2W was gated at Rank 9, with Stealth gated at rank 10.

Yes, they have three different versions. But only one matters in the Moors, since there are no undead Creeps, and the only ones who can stealth are Wargs and Spiders, both of whom are spotted with Passage of Nature.

Would removing LI's balance things? They'd alter the dynamics a bit, but not really change anything. What might be better was LI's for Creeps. After all, in the wild, you can get them from Mob drops. That implies we can carry them. So . . . let us!

Doesn't have to be the epic crazy stuff Freeps get. But it would give us more options than just the limited traits we have now.

Just my 2 crumbs.

Envoyé par l4j

Yes, there should be rewards for Creeps as they rank up. Honestly, I would suggest that a mid rank Creep should be an even match for a "well geared" (not exceptionally geared - but the broadly considered decent level of kit) Freep, with a high rank Creep being something that most Freeps are actually scared of.

Rank 15 is Tyrant. You shouldn't be a Pansy. You should have unranked Freeps running away when you take the field.

The problems here is Creeps improve with rank and Freeps with gear. When aiming for balance the solution is that the top Creeps and Freeps should be equal. That means a R15 Creep should be as strong as a Freep with 1st age weapon/moors armor/Draigoch cloak/T8 relics/teal ToO and Limlight jewelry

Creep advancements take longer but are permanent (though getting 2 WSotEK and 2 Cloak Clasps also takes some time)

New R0 Creeps should be roughly equivalent to Freeps that just hit 75 (meaning epic/quest gear, 3rd age weapon)

As long as we nerf wargs at the same time. Right now there is a high ranked warg who solos without any audacity who doesn't stealth or stun who can beat every champ on the server except 1 who has 7 audacity and uses all his cooldowns. That's pretty insanely out of balance to me and you want to make us even weaker without LIs?

Envoyé par l4j

The problem all along has been where the focus is. The main game is PvE and the Epic and the quest content and what have you. "Normal" characters are built for that environment and should be built for that environment. The adjustments shouldn't be made to the majority side - since a large number of players will never experience PvMP.

How it should be done is to set up Freeps for their world, then balance the Creeps so they are A: fun to play, even at lower ranks. B: a decent challenge for the Freeps. And C: Well balanced across the board.

Yes, there should be rewards for Creeps as they rank up. Honestly, I would suggest that a mid rank Creep should be an even match for a "well geared" (not exceptionally geared - but the broadly considered decent level of kit) Freep, with a high rank Creep being something that most Freeps are actually scared of.

Rank 15 is Tyrant. You shouldn't be a Pansy. You should have unranked Freeps running away when you take the field.

It'll never happen, I know. The balance really isn't there. Probably never will be. One of my personal favorite examples is Track. Hunters get it as a normal skill and can slot a range extension on it and can track from stealth. They have longer range and half the cooldown of a Warg track - that until P2W was gated at Rank 9, with Stealth gated at rank 10.

Yes, they have three different versions. But only one matters in the Moors, since there are no undead Creeps, and the only ones who can stealth are Wargs and Spiders, both of whom are spotted with Passage of Nature.

Would removing LI's balance things? They'd alter the dynamics a bit, but not really change anything. What might be better was LI's for Creeps. After all, in the wild, you can get them from Mob drops. That implies we can carry them. So . . . let us!

Doesn't have to be the epic crazy stuff Freeps get. But it would give us more options than just the limited traits we have now.

Just my 2 crumbs.

This ^^^^^! Creeps aren't asking to be able to faceroll every freep they come across, just to have equal footing with them. Make creeps a challenge for freeps, not glorified NPCs.

Envoyé par avengingbananaslug

As long as we nerf wargs at the same time. Right now there is a high ranked warg who solos without any audacity who doesn't stealth or stun who can beat every champ on the server except 1 who has 7 audacity and uses all his cooldowns. That's pretty insanely out of balance to me and you want to make us even weaker without LIs?

Might the bolded part be your answer?

No because high-ranked champs with audacity using their cooldowns and stuns (and some who are pretty good players) still can't beat him when, again, he has no audacity and doesn't stun himself. Now when you take into account the wargs with full audacity who stealth, stun, do massive damage while taking not much and then can run and HIPs if they have any chance of dying you have a pretty imbalanced fight right now. The last thing we need is to further nerf the freeps imo.

Envoyé par avengingbananaslug

the last thing we need is to further nerf the freeps imo.

lmao

123456

Envoyé par avengingbananaslug

As long as we nerf wargs at the same time. Right now there is a high ranked warg who solos without any audacity who doesn't stealth or stun who can beat every champ on the server except 1 who has 7 audacity and uses all his cooldowns. That's pretty insanely out of balance to me and you want to make us even weaker without LIs?

Envoyé par avengingbananaslug

No because high-ranked champs with audacity using their cooldowns and stuns (and some who are pretty good players) still can't beat him when, again, he has no audacity and doesn't stun himself. Now when you take into account the wargs with full audacity who stealth, stun, do massive damage while taking not much and then can run and HIPs if they have any chance of dying you have a pretty imbalanced fight right now. The last thing we need is to further nerf the freeps imo.

The champions on your server must be awful.

Envoyé par Stevo6

The champions on your server must be awful.

Yes of course. Every champ is awful and there's no imbalance despite multiple wargs themselves telling me differently and despite champs vs other classes being pretty even. The ability to stealth+stun right off, then hold your own damage wise then HIPs and never actually die is just great (we got 2 wargs on our server, Daarlin and Drullz, who basically never die and get a #### ton of kills running around in their warg pack).

Envoyé par avengingbananaslug

Yes of course. Every champ is awful and there's no imbalance despite multiple wargs themselves telling me differently and despite champs vs other classes being pretty even. The ability to stealth+stun right off, then hold your own damage wise then HIPs and never actually die is just great (we got 2 wargs on our server, Daarlin and Drullz, who basically never die and get a #### ton of kills running around in their warg pack).

Learn to play its that simple. The two wargs you name are rank 10 and 14. The r14 probably has a /played somewhere near a year, while yours is likely around 2 weeks. They spend 90%+ of the fight at your back and laugh all the way to the trainer with the easy comms. Yes there is a massive imbalance, champs. They are second only to the mini in overpoweredness. I would be willing to bet if you came to my server my burg rk and BA would kill you just as easily as the wargs are. Stop trying to get turbine to balance the game according to the lowest common denominator of player skill.

Envoyé par l4j

Would removing LI's balance things? They'd alter the dynamics a bit, but not really change anything. What might be better was LI's for Creeps. After all, in the wild, you can get them from Mob drops. That implies we can carry them. So . . . let us.

I agree with the post except this bit. I play creep to GET AWAY from the grind of PvE. Creep LIs, with the current grinding PoS system, are a horrible idea. Also, removing LI's would change a whole lot. Freeps would lose a good chunk of dps as well as all the buffs and bonuses that the legacys give them.

Envoyé par avengingbananaslug

As long as we nerf wargs at the same time. Right now there is a high ranked warg who solos without any audacity who doesn't stealth or stun who can beat every champ on the server except 1 who has 7 audacity and uses all his cooldowns. That's pretty insanely out of balance to me and you want to make us even weaker without LIs?

trololololololololololol

So you have 1 good warg and a bunch of terrible champs and based on this you think the entire class should be nerfed??? XD

Envoyé par avengingbananaslug

Yes of course. Every champ is awful and there's no imbalance despite multiple wargs themselves telling me differently and despite champs vs other classes being pretty even.

Again, trololololololololol, champs vs other classes being pretty even??? I could maybe see champ vs ba or spider being pretty even if the champ didn't blow any CDs, but other than that XD..... Like I said, 1 good warg beating a bunch of horrible champs is not a basis for a nerf ><.

My champ would eat a A1 Warg in about 9 fervour pips.

About Moors only LI's.... love the idea I'd like to take it step further. *Mind you any improvement will never be implemented.*

I'd like Freep LI's to "grow" with freeps as they rank up. So a r0 Freep would have a R0 LI, but each rank would add DPS, a bunch of base stats and then open up the true focus of the PvP LI: A Spec system, instead of legacies. Each rank would give 2 points to apply to ability boosts as the player saw fit, with 3 distinctly different spec lines based off the class trait system. In order to put points into a boost, it must first be purchased via comms, prices based on scale and rank. A high level of customization, tweaking, and new mechanics would revitalize the PvP.

so let me get this straight.

champs with full audacity, yes?, fighting a warg with 1 audacity, they waste all cd's and can't win? lol sorry dude but they seriously suck if that is the case, even if the champs only have audacity 1 (which actually makes it easier cause the dps would be even higher) they should still easily faceroll a warg even without cd's.

now if the warg has audacity at 7 it is a different matter at least for my champ since I don't go super top end perfection grind, still all I would have to do is get the PVP gear and I would be right back to my point above.

Envoyé par avengingbananaslug

The ability to stealth+stun right off, then hold your own damage wise then HIPs and never actually die is just great.

Sounds like you are describing burgs......hmmmm.....

Envoyé par Felajarko

Sounds like you are describing burgs......hmmmm.....

judging by this guys rant about how champs are equal to ALL classes, i wouldn't trust him to understand/describe ANY class

Envoyé par Samus1111111

I agree with the post except this bit. I play creep to GET AWAY from the grind of PvE. Creep LIs, with the current grinding PoS system, are a horrible idea. Also, removing LI's would change a whole lot. Freeps would lose a good chunk of dps as well as all the buffs and bonuses that the legacys give them.<snip>

Actually, I agree myself. I didn't pitch it as a serious idea, but mostly in jest - given that our Mob cousins carry them to drop I figured we should get to use them. Though the concept of customizable weapons Creepside probably has some merit. It would give us more alternatives to our builds.

Envoyé par Efol

Learn to play its that simple. The two wargs you name are rank 10 and 14. The r14 probably has a /played somewhere near a year, while yours is likely around 2 weeks. They spend 90%+ of the fight at your back and laugh all the way to the trainer with the easy comms. Yes there is a massive imbalance, champs. They are second only to the mini in overpoweredness. I would be willing to bet if you came to my server my burg rk and BA would kill you just as easily as the wargs are. Stop trying to get turbine to balance the game according to the lowest common denominator of player skill.

The R14 is terribad and moves like a uhaul truck, basically leeching and pveing renown en masse. Actual good competent wargs with Max audacity should be crushing most players with ease, but I'm sure everyone can agree that chaining 1k crits with claws (1s cd) that ignores avoidance entirely is like super balanced guys and wargs are just competitive right?

inb4 "oh just 'cause I win 95% of my fights doesn't mean I don't need more buffs"
Lol lol looooool

LIs are not the problem in the moors. The big crits are one problem and have always been.

This has been told to Turbine a thousand times, so no need to expect any change.

Envoyé par VincentVanPort

I honestly don't. The LI-system already added legacies to important to let go to any class, that might change the way it can be played drastically. If the impact wouldn't be this big I'd scond it, but I am not giving up BH damage and Needful Haste duration for a bonus that the devs believe to be "PvP-specific", how much is my heartseeker power cost going to decrease now?

I agree with this 100%, The LI system is for some classes so important, that removing it would make those classes unplayble. As Vincent said immagine a hunter with 15 sec NH, or a warden without careful step duration or ambush induction. LOL

Even if the pvp weapons with cretain benefits for a class seem a good idea overall, i can say that i dont trust the devs, not even a little bit! Looking at the current 'pvp audacity gear' bonuses atm, you'll realise that those bonuses for some classes are completely useless.

Removing LI's wouldn't break classes into unplayability, get a grip. LI's only came out in Moria, yet LOTRO existed for...4-5 books previous to that?

The fairly simple suggestion here, (that I made myself earlier) is to have a simpler less Grindy and less terrible method which requires LESS PvE to get suited for PvP (where ideally PvE is irrelevant).

Not difficult to grasp the concept, but when I mean pvp related bonuses on weapons I mean good ones. IE the "proposed hunters pvp axe" could have +nh duration and as a set bonus -focus cost on some skills or a heal to df or some junk.

If we moved away from LI's hopefully we could slightly heighten skill damage from the weapons, but drastically lower the crit damage. My skill damage isn't scary, but nearly every day I hit someone for 6k on remorseless.