Thread: Sugestions for defiler changes.

I'd like some changes to the defiler class (I know other classes needs some changes, but defiler is the class I play most of the time so I decided to make a thread about it) and before some of you start saying how OP or though they are I need to tell you, Improved flies ARE OP, but defiler itself ISN'T.

Having to depend on one single skill to win sucks, it's not cool or fun, I don't wanna win only because my enemy has no power and can't do anything.

Now let's go the changes, but please turbine, if you're not going to update defilers, don't nerf flies like I feel you're going to due to some people's QQ.

First, Blessing of Darkness:
It's a nice skill, very shiny, I always liked it. It's a kind of 'Shield-wall' that defilers have, but look at the diferences:
-Guards can have up to 70% mitigations, where as defilers can't.
-Guards (with legacy) can move around and use skills while shield-walling someone, where as defilers have to stand and can't do anything else while Blessing someone.
-Shield wall can only be interrupted when caster is stunned, Blessing of darkness can be interrupted by any form of CC and interrupt skills
-Shield wall cooldown is way too lower than blessing's

Even though they're only 4 differences(skills don't have to be the same for both sides) these are very HUGE differences, and makes the skills completly different with the same propouse.

It'd be nice if blessing couldn't be interrupted by interrupt skills and it could be usable while moving and/or not let us do other stuff while casting it. Also, to compensate mitigations difference, a buff to them should be applied to both caster and target(like +10% mitigations or so)

Another thing I'd like if they maked it instant, there's always some delay, it has costed me a lot of creeps lives becaue of that. Worst thing is, the buff and redirect damage doesent apply, target dies, and I got the skill on cd for nothing.


Explosive gourd:
One of our 2 AoE skills, fire damage with 10 seconds DoT on it, used to not stack with fire gourd's DoT(thanks for changing it!), but still, one minute cooldown. Why one minute? it's a long cd for one of our 4 'gourd' skills, when I got the other 2 on cd, I end up using it on a single target, and it's on cd when I need an AoE.
Reduce cooldown to 30s
Increase DoT duration to 15s


Tenderize:
Is it really a daze? 75% of the time it doesen't work, our second CC skill, and yes, it's COMMON damage.
Change damage to acid or shadow
Make daze occur 100% of the time
Increase cd to 7s
Decrease daze duration to 3s


Class traits that need to be changed:

*Frugal cursing: with u6 and flies I'm hardly running out of power making this trait totally useless so could use these changes:
-15s cooldown to all 'curse' skills
-1s induction to all 'curse' skills

*Enhanced Skill: Fell Sacrifice: why do defilers have to waste a class trait to get a rez every 30 seconds when freep healers can get one(or even 3) without cooldown?
Make this passive(change the skill, hell even make it 15 sec cd)
Remove this trait

*Enhanced Skill: Plague Gourd: one of the very few 'dps' traits we have and it's really bad. Change it so it affects our dps skills and we don't have to use a lot of slots for it.
-2s cooldown to all 'gourd' skills
+10% damage to melee skills
+25% critical chance to all melee and 'gourd' skills

*Enhanced Skill: Curse of Sticky Feet: no other class has to use a trait for a 25%+ slow, make the skill 20%, with the tact mit penalty

Frost gourd:
I'm tired of spamming fire and shadow gourd all the time, need a new one! This one includes a debuff and does forst damage, something we never had.
AoE skill: 2 targets 45s cd 3s induction
Not sure how the DPS of a skill is calculated, but let's say between 400-600 frost damage should be alright
+35% attack duration
-10% run speed


Cursing stance(Debuffing stance)
Yes! Why can't we have a kind of WS? it doesen't have to be like the new OP WS, it could just be like the old pre-RoI one, with heal nerf on it but debuffing focused rather than dps, hence defiler's secondary rol is debuffing.

New skill: Gourding stance: Defiler's may focus their abilities on old curses rather than spores and gourds, making them able to weaken their foes deeply.
Rank: 2 Cost: 2000 commendations(until they lower it, agree it should be less)

+Rank*200 Finesse
+Rank*150 Critical rating
-Ran*5% Outgoing healing

Changes skills:
*Curse of the Lethargic Heart and Curse of Deadly Sorrows to Improved Curse of the Lethargic Heart and Improved Curse of Deadly Sorrows, -75 to all stats affected

*Frost gourd becomes Frost curse:
max targets 4 Induction: 3s 30s cd
+40% attack speed
-15% run speed

*Curse of the Coward's Soul: don't you hate when you're killing someone then suddenly it starts running to a place flooded with npcs where you cant get him, and you realise your slow is only 20% and all freeps slows are 25% or more? In gourding stance this curse becomes ranged(25m) fears a single target, and reduced cooldown to 20s.

*Curse of the Melancholic Heart changes to Improved Curse of the Melancholic Heart, -25% outgoing healing -25% incoming healing


This post took a while, please comment and discuss!
Special thanks to Apache and Talidis of Imladris for some ideas.

I didn't know you creep'd.

Btw, nice changes and I like most of them. Although, I'm not sure how I feel about the frost damage skill. Defilers aren't really focused around the elements of frost and such. They're darker and more devious, specializing in poisons (acid) and dark plauges (shadow) and such.

P.S.

you should creep with me sometime, although im stuck with my lowbie reaver until I get vip again.

One change I would highly promote is the defiler Rez.
* Remove the cool down on the rez. It's an out of combat rez. Mini's, LM's and RK's have NO cool down on rezzes, why does a defiler?
* Get rid of the Defiler trait to improve the CD on the rez. Seriously? Who traits for a better CD on a rez. Not freeps. Give us something more useful.

I'd also like to see higher potency melee skills, and a minimum of one instant-cast DPS skill. As soon as anything gets us in melee range it pretty much becomes a kite heal/hope someone with real-dps-comes-to-save-your-behind fight.

Curse of the Lethargic Heart, Rotten Flesh, and Deadly Sorrows should be affected by the trait fast lob. The defiler's dps and debuffing skills move in super slow motion. Given the rapidity that freeps fight at this is leaving the defiler in the dust.

Not that familiar with defiler skills but looks pretty solid to me. Mostly just want to see some changes.

I'd like only 2 changes.

1. Tweak traited flies. Either do something with the power drain, cool-down length, or turn them back into a "swarm" npc....or all of those.

2. Give defilers a dps stance. Make it just like minstrel warspeech....can only heal themselves in the stance. This will make defilers very happy, and the rest of the creeps wondering why they aren't getting anymore heals! Kinda like minstrels

Originally Posted by Kurtdg21

I'd like only 2 changes.

1. Tweak traited flies. Either do something with the power drain, cool-down length, or turn them back into a "swarm" npc....or all of those.

2. Give defilers a dps stance. Make it just like minstrel warspeech....can only heal themselves in the stance. This will make defilers very happy, and the rest of the creeps wondering why they aren't getting anymore heals! Kinda like minstrels

I totally support defiler changes, and creep buffing, but i always feel that adding stance leads to multiple class having a lot of different roles. I want something different, not another WS

Well like originally suggested a dps/debuff "stance" would be unique.

Another route I'd like to see pursued is trait lines for creeps. Two of them for two different roles. Don't need a stance but traitline bonuses can cater different roles. Heal restrictions for induction/debuff bonuses.

On topic, a dps component to sticky feet, frost gourd is great, and maybe instant blight like a sticky gourd.

Like to see our debuffs be either AOE or instant cast

The pot's or skills the freeps use to remove them are instant cast.

and it will allow defilers to solow a bit more.

I have no good idea's for how we can increase defiler DPS, but I kinda do for healing.

Protective spores:
Power Cost: ??
On any damage, negate 10% damage
On any damage, heal for 5% of received damage
Immune to critical hits

1.5sec induction
Duration 10sec
CD 30/45sec



Sacrificial Duty:
Cost: 50% morale
Power: ??
Heals your group for 100% of subtracted morale cost (Outgoing healing modifier, incoming healing modifier)
Places the Protective spores effect on your entire group.
Places all HoT effects on the defiler with no initial heal and half normal pulses
Instant
Cooldown 10min

CHANGES:
Blessing of the darkness
Toggle skill
Redirects 15% of targets damage to the defiler.
On any damage to target, Applies small HoT to the defiler
Inductions are not set back by damage.

And to go hand in hand with this:

WARLEADER SKILL

You deal with me!:
The warleader appears in front of the freep with the most morale and decapitates them instantaneously in front of their allies, fearing all nearby enemies for 2 minutes, and preventing any damage from affecting target ally.
Range 120m

Getting serious;

You deal with me!:
The warleader pushes the target ally aside, causing him to fumble, strengthening the warleader as he prepares to take extra punishment.

Toggle
Target effects: Target cannot BPE or resist.
Transfers all Damage from the Target to the Caster
The warleader gains 5% block parry evade and resistance.
Range: 25m
Cost: 2% of max morale per sec for 10sec, after 10sec 3% of max power per 5 seconds.
Cooldown 20sec.

Some great ideas above.

My main beef so far is everything a defiler does takes 4EVER! Cut all inductions in 1/2.

And I really really agree that our OC res should not have a CD.

I think most of the OP suggestions would be good, tho i do agree that frost is wrong just doesn't seem like a defiler type attack keep the values but use something like poison/acid damage would be fine i think with the same values.....anything but common is fine tho

just a note, the Shield wall skill actually doesn't use the guards mits the damage is mitigated when it hits the target and then the guard only takes the raw damage, whatever it comes out as after it goes through the target from what i've understood anyhow.

back on topic, really in the end tho i don't want any stances......stance dancing isn't fun IMO. trait lines could work just something to keep me from having to change a stance while fighting or some such can play a mini if i want to do that.

removing the "healing" graphical effect when casting blight.....its not useful.....and draws way more attention to me...try and cast it and most melees run right at me....if i don't get it off they can completely stop me from using it. and as blight is as much a defensive skill when healing as it is an offensive skill it just seems worthless to have it use the healing graphic giving it some other effect would be best i think that way people can know i'm just casting blight...and if they are worried about that then they can attack me, if not they can go about their business not thinking i'm healing everything they are attacking. /endrant

I'd also suggest substantially increasing the range on defiler fear. 6 meters? Really? Hunters have 40~ meter range, mini's have a big range too... yet we get 6 meters. Yeah.
While I don't necessarily subscribe to the thought that creeps should have counterpart skills to what freeps have, the defiler range is too far on the other end of the spectrum.
Given that it's AoE, i'd suggest at ~ 20 meters, 30 meters would be boss.

Also, an increase in range on Slick Flesh would be swell. 10M range is pretty frustrating when people go charging off right away. They don't even have to run very far to miss it.
Increase to 20 meter range would be better.

Another thing that would be nice, all the freep caster classes have a crafted consumable available that prevents induction knockbacks and they have all those snazzy instant skills. Defiler is about 90% induction-based, yet we have nothing to help us out with knockbacks. So either a knockback prevention skill, or a new consumable for all creeps would be my suggestion.

One final suggestion: add a skill that's solely for interrupts. All freep classes have a skill solely for that purpose (some are multi-purpose). Ranged freeps have ranged interrupts, melee freeps have melee interrupts. The consistency is not the same for creeps, and in this area it should be.
Our only "good" interrupt is the 6m range fear or a 25% chance at a stun. We're a ranged class, we should have a ranged interrupt.

Originally Posted by Kurtdg21

1. Tweak traited flies. Either do something with the power drain, cool-down length, or turn them back into a "swarm" npc....or all of those.

Power drains mean nothing vs 3 out of 9 freep classes .

Power drains are a great useful tool vs OP wardens .

Flies are CC-able . Freeps got plenty of CC to deal with them .

How about we find a way to deal with it instead of ask for a nerf ?

Creeps already got 2 power drains turned in to useless skills .

Let us keep 1 please .

Thank you all for the responses.

Originally Posted by Louvre

Power drains mean nothing vs 3 out of 9 freep classes .

Power drains are a great useful tool vs OP wardens .

Flies are CC-able . Freeps got plenty of CC to deal with them .

How about we find a way to deal with it instead of ask for a nerf ?

Creeps already got 2 power drains turned in to useless skills .

Let us keep 1 please .

Flies are OP, power restore should not affect every creep around and flies should have a pet pannel like every other pet.
In deed it's useful against wardens, however, depends really if you get flies before he starts placing the debuff on you(if that warden will pot your fears/diseases/dazes). With the best warden of our server we like to 1vs1 without the debuff and withotu flies, makes it more interesting.

Flies can't be stunned, dazed or rooted, but they can be feared, that pisses me off when fighting skilled minis.

Originally Posted by Inglaran

Flies are OP, power restore should not affect every creep around

So it's OP to have 1 skill that gives creeps power , but its totally cool for freeps too have at least 2 ?

What is the reasoning behind that ?

We're not allowed to have higher dps , we're not allowed to have higher healing potency , we have had power drains nerfed twice ( wich is rather silly considering how you can see freeps running with 8k power pools ) , and now you agree that flies are OP and should get nerfed ?

C'mon Mr Defiler !

Basically ALL melees & hunters can restore their own power , and tacticals ( who can also do that btw ) have such big power pools that flies make little to no difference .

OP you say ? OP YOU SAY ?

I say MADNESS !

Originally Posted by Inglaran

Flies can't be stunned, dazed or rooted, but they can be feared, that pisses me off when fighting skilled minis.

Haha i know a lot of lms that dont know they can unstun people and a bunch of 75 minis that don't know their fear skill XD

nice post

my 2 cp

Biggest issue for defilers is:

cooldown on our one big heal, that should be dropped to a 15 sec or 10 sec CD

something, Anything! to help us with inductions. Even if it is a skill on a 5 min CD that allows your next ability to be insta cast (ala Daoc Midgard healers)


and Mopeds!!!

so... let me get this straight.. flies are OP because they give other creeps power?
Then what's that make Cappies and LMs?

Also: I don't think we necessarily need a pet panel. Just a simple way to point them in the right direction. These aren't intended to be out all the time like normal pets.

they're not just OP because they restore other people's power. is the fact that just using the skill once can drain someone's power to 0(and hence skill lasts 30s and cd is 30s you can keep it 0) I'm saying that they should be nerfed when defiler gets a revamp, either more dps or better 2nd role. imo winning just inutilizing other people from doing anything sucks for me, no fun in that(YES, faceroll classes aren't fun either, but because minis wardens etc are OP doesent mean we have to be that lame)

Originally Posted by Inglaran

they're not just OP because they restore other people's power. is the fact that just using the skill once can drain someone's power to 0

Yeah , assuming the freep has terrible icpr and just stands still while the flies drain power .

But killing AFK freeps can't be a reference to call a skill OP , can it ?

Your changes to Tenderize would be so OP it's not even amusing. A 3s daze on a 7s CD? Might as well give defilers Uruk heal as well, since 3s is more than enough for a smart defiler to use in the right place to completely full heal. If Tenderize is going to mez 100% of the time, the CD should be bumped up to at least 45s, if not a full minute.

Originally Posted by Bond007

Your changes to Tenderize would be so OP it's not even amusing. A 3s daze on a 7s CD? Might as well give defilers Uruk heal as well, since 3s is more than enough for a smart defiler to use in the right place to completely full heal. If Tenderize is going to mez 100% of the time, the CD should be bumped up to at least 45s, if not a full minute.

LOL A granted daze in tenderize is not only not OP but also completely useless .

Your answer is so surreal I find hard to tell if you're serious . A 3s daze on a 7s CD means :

1st daze = 1,5 sec
2nd daze = 0.75 sec
3rd daze = 0.37 sec

Of course , this is on a freep with no audacity ...

And you even dare to suggest that these dazes would allow a defiler to fully heal ? Trolololol .

Get rid of the daze and give it an outgoing healing buff ( or something else actually useful ) .

Originally Posted by Inglaran

they're not just OP because they restore other people's power. is the fact that just using the skill once can drain someone's power to 0(and hence skill lasts 30s and cd is 30s you can keep it 0) I'm saying that they should be nerfed when defiler gets a revamp, either more dps or better 2nd role. imo winning just inutilizing other people from doing anything sucks for me, no fun in that(YES, faceroll classes aren't fun either, but because minis wardens etc are OP doesent mean we have to be that lame)

LM's can and do use their power drain to completely drain creeps, so what's the difference? You can't even LOS an LM power drain.
I disagree that flies need a nerf, and I don't even have the enhanced ones yet. God forbid a creep actually have an "ugly" skill. How many "ugly" skills do all the freeps have? Many, many.