Thread: Update 7 - New problem for Hunters threat?

OK so with Update 7 they are adding the Starlit Crystals for LI's (i.e. more LI grind).

The crystals add to an LI's DPS. So with increased DPS on our bows we are going to have even more problems with threat/threat reduction.

So should Hunters just forgo getting Starlit Crystals altogether?

i plan on getting them, ./shrug i dont really forsee an major issue coming from this. but of course i've been wrong before

Originally Posted by Grhysli

OK so with Update 7 they are adding the Starlit Crystals for LI's (i.e. more LI grind).

The crystals add to an LI's DPS. So with increased DPS on our bows we are going to have even more problems with threat/threat reduction.

So should Hunters just forgo getting Starlit Crystals altogether?

2nd age + crystals have close dps to a 1st age without crystal (from what ppl saw on BR). Close, but still less. Good tanks (guards and wardens, both) can hold aggro on a hunter going crazy on dps with a 1st age.

I think Hunters should get the Crystals, 1st priority together with healers.

Don't forget the tanks may be getting the crystals too. That can up some of the ratings on their belts. Actually, I need to go test that right now before the server gets taken down.

Yes, it will be a problem. I am a guard and I will try to explain again that Guardian aggro management skills and Hunter dps has not scaled equally. First, Guardian dps is not the main factor in Guardian aggro mechanics. Our non dps skills provide more aggro in general than our dps skills do. THis means that even with an equal % increase to dps for hunters and guards it means threat difficulties are made even bigger. 10% increase to 1800dps=180. 10% increase to 500=50 see what I mean? Without equally scaling guard aggro skills, hunters will pull aggro even quicker.
And No hunters can not go crazy and expect ANY Guard to keep aggro for long. What this means is that while you will get a very large boost to your dps you will also be playing with guards whose aggro skills will not have not scaled up equally and you are left right back where you were before except now you will do more dps.
Please think about the math involved. If your dps output increases by 25% a tanks threat from dps would have to increase by more than 300% to match it for most hunter/tank comparisons. Do you think that happened? I dont.


Djasi
A Guard

Originally Posted by Djasi

Yes, it will be a problem. I am a guard and I will try to explain again that Guardian aggro management skills and Hunter dps has not scaled equally. First, Guardian dps is not the main factor in Guardian aggro mechanics. Our non dps skills provide more aggro in general than our dps skills do. THis means that even with an equal % increase to dps for hunters and guards it means threat difficulties are made even bigger. 10% increase to 1800dps=180. 10% increase to 500=50 see what I mean? Without equally scaling guard aggro skills, hunters will pull aggro even quicker.
And No hunters can not go crazy and expect ANY Guard to keep aggro for long. What this means is that while you will get a very large boost to your dps you will also be playing with guards whose aggro skills will not have not scaled up equally and you are left right back where you were before except now you will do more dps.
Please think about the math involved. If your dps output increases by 25% a tanks threat from dps would have to increase by more than 300% to match it for most hunter/tank comparisons. Do you think that happened? I dont.


Djasi
A Guard

I hope you're not trying to hold aggro through your own dps. You have straight threat enhancing skills (i.e. shield litany for one). Crystals will improve your threat rating on your belt. Increased threat matches increased dps. If you spend crystals on your mainhand and don't go for increased threat, you are wasting an added bonus.

Sincerely,
A Concerned Hunter


But really, all trolling aside -- I think crystals shouldn't be adding a new problem. Wardens don't have a direct benefit from them, but guards will have increased threat. And, well, wardens don't need added threat. I have one, so I should know. Good guardians still may have problems, but it's not new news. Same problem, different scale.

Good guards will hold aggro very similarly to how they did before, the dps increase on a FA is so small it won't make much of a difference.

I suppose this means you'll have more of a reason to use endurance stance after U7. I will miss using precision stance at all times.

Anyone seen any good guards lately? They all seem to go OP stance and cant hold agro.

Any benefit to your weapon you can get should be a priority, imo. Unless you don't want to grind for the crystals, or you're really that worried about your threat.

I'm personally hoping with RoR, we get a few threat transfer skills or something.

Smugo, the dps output for FA is increased about 6% with the new Crystals. Again I would like to point out to 007 and others that I did say our main threat skills are NOT dps, but the problem is that because our dps is sooooo far behind yours any increase to your dps output must be scaled to match by our ability to output threat and it was NOT. A 6% increase to your dps MUST be met with more than 10% threat increase on our end minum, this actually is in most cases a 15+% need. This did not occur. While it is not impossible for a good guard to keep a hunter covered for threat, sometimes all it takes is a chain of crits from a hunter and one missed engage to wipe a group. Other classes have skills to ensure this never happens. Hunters will continue to have to dance on that thin line between what is needed to get the job done and too much threat. I agree that working together with the tank this can be managed, esp if you place yourself where WR can leech and you speak up when you hit big numbers so the guard can react to it, but to say that a hunter can "go crazy" and still not worry is not true.
And 007, you are right Wardens will not have this problem and a guard who does anything but use his crystals for increase to threat will not have a chance. Your are exactly correct when you stated "Same problem different scale."

Djasi

Originally Posted by Djasi

Smugo, the dps output for FA is increased about 6% with the new Crystals.

...

While it is not impossible for a good guard to keep a hunter covered for threat, sometimes all it takes is a chain of crits from a hunter and one missed engage to wipe a group.

The DPS increase with 3 crystals on a FA is 1.536%.

Completely agree here, holding aggro DEPENDS on engage at this point, it just isn't possible to keep up with a hunter going all out without using it (unless other classes use various skills to help out as well (not hunters though, they can't do #### for aggro management)). It makes the RK fire attuned buff of -5% miss chance pretty nice.

Originally Posted by Grhysli

So should Hunters just forgo getting Starlit Crystals altogether?

Seriously? More dps is offered and you're suggesting we avoid it? Even if I had aggro problems with Endurance Stance + 3 Threat Down Legacies + Tome of Whisper-draw, as if that were possible, I'm not going to just pass on it. There's still plenty of scenarios where it would come in handy.

Sure, I'll go for more DPS. Why not? When I solo, or run instances like RoF where I'm expected to burn spiders as quickly as possible, I'll want all the DPS I can get my hands on. In the few situations where the tank can't hold aggro, I'll just go endurance like I do now sometimes. It's no big deal.

i would be clearly bacon defecient to pass on more DPS.

Agreed, it will make Hunter threat issues more acute for the reasons cited- Guard and Hunter threat reduction legacies are generally -Fixed Threat / Application. Fixed Threat is proportionately smaller as DPS increases.

The Crystals do act as a level increase for the weapon though so the +Threat and -Threat legacies will scale somewhat. The fact that Hunters rarely use their threat legacies makes it more challenging. The Whisper Draw book is slowly being pushed into nothingness.

Originally Posted by Tithias

Anyone seen any good guards lately? They all seem to go OP stance and cant hold agro.

Geez, you know the Creeps aren't going to stop attacking you in the Moors even if you had a hundred Guards around you.

On a more serious note, my kin has quite a few good Guardians.

Originally Posted by Tchad

1st priority together with healers.

why healer should need it? Outgoing healing is capped at 50% every one reach this cap very easily.

What is the exact difference? 2% will not have that much of an impact.

Originally Posted by Burio

why healer should need it? Outgoing healing is capped at 50% every one reach this cap very easily.

+tactical healing rate doesn't increase outgoing healing % -- it simply increases healing, maybe thru the base number? I'm not positive how it works but I do know that I used a renewal scroll on my RK healing satchel and when I ranked up the +tactical healing on it my outgoing healing % or rating never went up. Ultimately, the crystals will not subject healing to the 50% outgoing healing cap.

I don't think hunters will have an issue with aggro anymore than they are now. Good tanks hold aggro just fine. Bad tanks...they will always be an issue.

3 crystals only adds 2.3 DPS to a first Age bow.

3 crystals only adds 2.3 DPS to a first Age bow.

people are looking this as a single small increase, but for raiders it will be massive, Most groups (i know not all) will take 5 dps classes (possibil Raid set up = of 2xtanks, 2xhealers, 2xCapt, 1x Lm, 5x DPS)

if all 5 dps classes get a 2.3% increase in dps
=
11.5% increase in dps for the raid,

1-v-1 its a small increase, but ''if'' it is a 2.3 increase in dps, for all dpser, in raids its going to make a massive difference

a extra 11.5% more dps in a raid group that already have high dps, will be seen as a massive difference and may be a fact for some of them group to break the wing there currently working on

Shouldn't it be the job of DPS in a raid to control thier threat. I know some fights will be a DPS race but still evne in those if the DPS is gernerating more threat then the tank can handle shouldnt they let more auto attacks in thier rotation to deal with it?

Originally Posted by Tanz-love-cookies

if all 5 dps classes get a 2.3% increase in dps
=
11.5% increase in dps for the raid,

No, you would get only get a 2.3% increase for raid-dps, because you can't just sum them up to 11.5%.
Lets look at an example:
Lets assume all 5 dps classes are doing 1000dps.
So the raid-dps is 5000dps (ignoring all the other non-dps classes).
Now every dps class gets 3 crystals.
So all of those 5 can do 1000*1.023=1023dps.
That sums up to 5115 raid dps.
That's exactly the old raid-dps times the 2.3% increase.
5000*1.023=5115

On topic:
Threat shouldn't be an issue if you have a capable tank. The tank has to know how to use challenge+engage+threat stance and you have to go crazy in the first 13seconds. After that he should be able to hold the aggro for the rest of the fight.

Originally Posted by Devallos

No, you would get only get a 2.3% increase for raid-dps, because you can't just sum them up to 11.5%.
Lets look at an example:
Lets assume all 5 dps classes are doing 1000dps.
So the raid-dps is 5000dps (ignoring all the other non-dps classes).
Now every dps class gets 3 crystals.
So all of those 5 can do 1000*1.023=1023dps.
That sums up to 5115 raid dps.
That's exactly the old raid-dps times the 2.3% increase.
5000*1.023=5115

On topic:
Threat shouldn't be an issue if you have a capable tank. The tank has to know how to use challenge+engage+threat stance and you have to go crazy in the first 13seconds. After that he should be able to hold the aggro for the rest of the fight.

Another thing about looking at it as a whole raid is:

Lets say a wardens EoB does 13K dmg worth of threat.
Ok, what this means is that EACH member will have to do more then 13K dmg to take agro.
With 5 DPSr's, they would have to do more then 65,000 dmg as a whole for one to pull agro...which would be because one person did more then 13,000 dmg.

Originally Posted by Shredex

Another thing about looking at it as a whole raid is:

Lets say a wardens EoB does 13K dmg worth of threat.
Ok, what this means is that EACH member will have to do more then 13K dmg to take agro.
With 5 DPSr's, they would have to do more then 65,000 dmg as a whole for one to pull agro...which would be because one person did more then 13,000 dmg.

That's assuming everyone is dpsing equally. If one burg is exponentially better than the champion doing dps, the burg may reach the 13k boundary well before the champ. Thus, 65k isn't a reasonable border by far, and threat problems become noticeable much earlier if dps is unbalanced and unequal between classes.... which it is, quite often

Originally Posted by Tanz-love-cookies

people are looking this as a single small increase, but for raiders it will be massive, Most groups (i know not all) will take 5 dps classes (possibil Raid set up = of 2xtanks, 2xhealers, 2xCapt, 1x Lm, 5x DPS)

if all 5 dps classes get a 2.3% increase in dps
=
11.5% increase in dps for the raid,

1-v-1 its a small increase, but ''if'' it is a 2.3 increase in dps, for all dpser, in raids its going to make a massive difference

a extra 11.5% more dps in a raid group that already have high dps, will be seen as a massive difference and may be a fact for some of them group to break the wing there currently working on

On behalf of Math I'm suing you for massive abuse of calculations with %'s.

Originally Posted by Majires

Shouldn't it be the job of DPS in a raid to control thier threat.

For crying out loud. It has been explained, repeatedly and endlessly in thread after thread after thread. Of course. The point is other classes have actual tools for this so they can manage threat while maintining dps. Our two tools are Beneath Notice, which is a temporary shielding of aggro that comes back to you at the end if another class has not got it back, and 'trying not to hurt things too much'.

At the same time our survival has been nerfed to hell with mitigation and armour changes other classes are spouting various bubbles like crazy.

It's all really not Rocket-Surgery.

Originally Posted by Majires

Shouldn't it be the job of DPS in a raid to control thier threat. I know some fights will be a DPS race but still evne in those if the DPS is gernerating more threat then the tank can handle shouldnt they let more auto attacks in thier rotation to deal with it?

Nope. It's the Tank's job to generate more then enough aggro to keep whatever I'm shooting focused on him. He has more then enough tools to do the job. If the tank cannot effectively use these multitude of tools to the full effect, he fails.

Hunters do not have effective aggro control without nerfing our own DPS, which includes swapping stances (from Precision to Endurance, that's less Crit, more misses, less Crit Mag) using a Threat Book (That's less power and more power cost, that means the less I can pewpew) Using Threat-Down Legacies (Which could be used, but nerfs DPS in the form of taking up slots of Barbed Arrow Bleed, Burn Hot damge, Heartseeker damage)

So no, it is not our job to throttle our DPS down, it's the tank's job to ramp their aggro up, period.