And herein lies the rub...ya'll want to quote numbers from gawd knows what source? Is Turbine the source? I rather doubt it. Some second hand, second rate program I suspect. What I do has been proven in PRACTICE over countless instances and raids and through countless variations in order of skills usage. What I use and the order in which I use it has been proven to my satisfaction through practical use.
Now if am backed up by a herd of mindless, uncontrolled and uncontrollable DPSers all bets are off and after a few wipes I usually tell em to find themselves a different tank. I dont need the aggravation. I much prefer the well through out and deliberate approach with a group of folks fully capable of thinking on their feet, modifying Plan A on the fly and not prone to panic at the first sign of trouble.
BTW...a little etymology for ya'll...aggro is a word used the South Pacific...New Guinea, New Georgia, Solomon Islands etc. It comes from a language that combines English, Australian slang and Pidgin...aggro = aggravate. So, for our purposes I guess the word can be used to describe the process of aggravating a mob into giving you its undivided attention...Orrrrr... Wanting to smack some idiot hunter that is in the raid. You know...the goof that wants to smack some 500k morale mob with an attack that does around 7-10k damage right from the start.
Those numbers were completely made up off the top of my head. It was a simple (IMO) way to explain what Engage does and when it should be used. Believe it or not, I am actually trying to help (even though I know I am a sarcastic smart@$$ sometimes... ok, most of the time). And I have no doubt that you have practiced using engage as the initial pulling hit for a long while now, and if you want to continue tanking like Charles Barkley swings a golf club, then by all means do so, they both will get the job done, it's just one way is much more efficient than the other. Remember, practice does NOT make perfect, PERFECT practice makes perfect...
Thanks for the vocab lesson, learn something new every day and speaking of learning, from a tank set in his ways, an "idiot hunter" that smacks a mob for 7-10k right from the start might be very annoying, especially if said tank, hypothetically using Engage to pull the mob, losses aggro and now has no way to pick the mob back up (besides Challenge which is a temporary force taunt that as soon as the taunt is up, the mob will be running right back to the "idiot hunter").
Now, using YOUR example, let's say the Guard does something crazy, such as pulling with bash or Fray followed by a Challenge, then the "idiot hunter" drops a 10k bomb on the mob, and continues to do 2500 DPS on the mob for the next 10 seconds while Challenge is running. It would nearly be impossible for a Guard in Block stance to build enough aggro, without copying, to pull back ahead of the "idiot hunter", but let's say instead of waiting for Challenge to end, chasing after the mob, having the "idiot hunter" get one-shotted, then /ragequit the group, if you were in threat stance, and used Engage AFTER the "idiot hunter" went nutz on DPS from the very start, and right BEFORE the Challenge you hit Engage (as it's not on CD from the initial pull), then you would actually have a 21-34% (and yes these %'s are from Turbine) lead over the "idiot hunter". So instead of smacking the "idiot hunter" you can actually laugh at him and taunt him with things like "is that all you got!?" or "you only gave me 1-2 seconds and you still don't do enough damage do pull!!" or "is that a nerf gun you are shooting??" lol
Couple tips about a hunter. They have the absolute worst aggro management of all classes. They also do the most damage during the first 5-30 seconds of the fight. I am probably an 8-8.5/10 on a scale of 0 (hunter that builds for melee) and 10 (top hunters in the game) and I can do 4-5k DPS on a mob in the first 10 seconds and after about 30s I am still in the 3-4k DPS range (if going all out from the beginning) and normally settle between 1500-2500+ depending on the tank. If you use this massive DPS to your advantage, and tell DPS to go all out from the beginning seconds (while you have the boss Challenged), then it doesn't matter how much DPS they do, or how much aggro they have, because 1. Challenge keeps the mob on you no matter what (unless another force taunt overrides it AFAIK) and 2. the more aggro the "idiot hunter" builds at the beginning, the more aggro you will have after you use Engage. It's a Win-Win!!
And herein lies the rub...ya'll want to quote numbers from gawd knows what source? Is Turbine the source? I rather doubt it. Some second hand, second rate program I suspect. What I do has been proven in PRACTICE over countless instances and raids and through countless variations in order of skills usage. What I use and the order in which I use it has been proven to my satisfaction through practical use.
Now if am backed up by a herd of mindless, uncontrolled and uncontrollable DPSers all bets are off and after a few wipes I usually tell em to find themselves a different tank. I dont need the aggravation. I much prefer the well through out and deliberate approach with a group of folks fully capable of thinking on their feet, modifying Plan A on the fly and not prone to panic at the first sign of trouble.
BTW...a little etymology for ya'll...aggro is a word used the South Pacific...New Guinea, New Georgia, Solomon Islands etc. It comes from a language that combines English, Australian slang and Pidgin...aggro = aggravate. So, for our purposes I guess the word can be used to describe the process of aggravating a mob into giving you its undivided attention...Orrrrr... Wanting to smack some idiot hunter that is in the raid. You know...the goof that wants to smack some 500k morale mob with an attack that does around 7-10k damage right from the start.
Have you done Acid T2C in <100s? No? I thought not.
We have our tanks challenge -> Ctd -> Engage/Threat for acid & shadow, slightly different to the way evendale does it (22s~ of forced at the start & dump after the engage) but it has the same result. Starting with engage is completely and utterly stupid.
Starting with engage is completely and utterly stupid.
QFT. This is true in ANY situation.
Untrue, for bosses with no ranged attacks, you can have a hunter pull with all their biggest attacks right at the start. Just make sure they understand you don't want them to hold back, but unleash with everything they have.
When the boss gets into mêlée range, Engage. Bam! All the threat that hunter was building is now yours, plus perceived threat.
(There might be situations where it's worth letting other classes build threat for you, as long as you understand the threat copy skills, and perceived threat.)
PS: But yes, of course, replacing initial 0 threat with another's 0 threat would be pointless.
"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
Untrue, for bosses with no ranged attacks, you can have a hunter pull with all their biggest attacks right at the start. Just make sure they understand you don't want them to hold back, but unleash with everything they have.
When the boss gets into mêlée range, Engage. Bam! All the threat that hunter was building is now yours, plus perceived threat.
(There might be situations where it's worth letting other classes build threat for you, as long as you understand the threat copy skills, and perceived threat.)
PS: But yes, of course, replacing initial 0 threat with another's 0 threat would be pointless.
I have never personally seen or heard of having a ranged pull a non-ranged boss and have the tank engage when in melee range, but I guess in theory it makes sense...
Also, yes I know I am preaching to the choir here, the note you made where there might be situations where it would be better to have other classes build threat for you, that's basically what an initial Challenge does... you Challenge, go AFK for 9s (/sarcasm) then Engage... you have done practically nothing to build threat, but you just ninja it from the hardest hitter
Untrue, for bosses with no ranged attacks, you can have a hunter pull with all their biggest attacks right at the start. Just make sure they understand you don't want them to hold back, but unleash with everything they have.
When the boss gets into mêlée range, Engage. Bam! All the threat that hunter was building is now yours, plus perceived threat.
(There might be situations where it's worth letting other classes build threat for you, as long as you understand the threat copy skills, and perceived threat.)
Even here imho you're better off by giving the hunters additional 10+ seconds by starting with challenge
When the boss gets into mêlée range, Engage. Bam! All the threat that hunter was building is now yours, plus perceived threat.
Haven't read anything about it - is it that one no longer needs to stance dance when engaging (engage in block, then switch to threat to get the perceived threat)?
Untrue, for bosses with no ranged attacks, you can have a hunter pull with all their biggest attacks right at the start. Just make sure they understand you don't want them to hold back, but unleash with everything they have.
When the boss gets into mêlée range, Engage. Bam! All the threat that hunter was building is now yours, plus perceived threat.
(There might be situations where it's worth letting other classes build threat for you, as long as you understand the threat copy skills, and perceived threat.)
PS: But yes, of course, replacing initial 0 threat with another's 0 threat would be pointless.
I'd never do this myself, but even if I did, I would give him the additional 13 force-taunted seconds of Challenge before actually using Engage. Only makes sense .
Haven't read anything about it - is it that one no longer needs to stance dance when engaging (engage in block, then switch to threat to get the perceived threat)?
That is correct. Engage ignores any and all perceived threat and only goes off of raw threat.
If you have 2 Minstrels in your raid. You can get both to use Call to Greatness on the tank, first minstrel as soon as tank/boss in the correect Possition
This will give the Guard a 25% threat Generation for 15s, so if u have 2 minstrels, have 1 use at the start of battle (when tank has boss in the correct are), then 15s after the second minstrel to use theres.
25% threat generation on top of what ever the tank is doing should be anuf not to loose agro
IF, the group has 2 minstrel, then i would tell the Champion (s) not to use Ebbing until 35-45s into a fight, this aids the fight as the champs have DPSed more, so they have alot more threat to drop, If you have 2 champs, and they both drop there agro within the above time, it will be very hard from 45s into the fight for anyone else to get ago (Unless guard then falls asleep, or dps get a very good roll on crits/devs)
Overlay:
1 - Tank Charges into battle, he graps agro of the boss, and if needed moves to correct Possition
2 - Tank can use challenge once in the correct Possition
3 - Once tank is in poisstion he ministrel 1 uses Call to greatness
4 - 15s later Minstrel 2 is to use call to greatness
5 - 35-45s into the fight, the champion (s) are to use ebbing on the tank
6 - every minute after they are to redrop there agro on tank (all champs should have ebbing CD on atleast a swap bag)
Yeah if all the raid help in the aggro management, the aggro is not a problem for a medium guardian.
Still tanking all ToO T2 content with my second age 6% threat belt without any problem. (other than some bad luck miss on some skill) but i've all the raid that help me doing that.
(my raid is full of crazy dps that reach 2300, 2200 dps)
3xCall to greatness, provoke from stealth, aggro sharing when i ask for that etc...
Remember that at the beginning of the boss fight all CD are reset so you can pop your pledge and warrior's heart before run to the boss, and same can do minstrel with CtG. As soon as the combat start all CD skill are reset and this give you the possibility to use your CD 3 times. ;D
Generally also one mins is opening skill for everyone at in the very first second of the battle so you have block and parry response to build aggro fast.
Another good way to avoid instashot from boss if you don't take aggro istantly is that one capt absorb and last stand just before start so nobody will die. (and he get skill reset anyway as he pop that before start fight :P)
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Originally Posted by Kwinn
and speaking of learning, from a tank set in his ways, an "idiot hunter" that smacks a mob for 7-10k right from the start might be very annoying, especially if said tank, hypothetically using Engage to pull the mob, losses aggro and now has no way to pick the mob back up (besides Challenge which is a temporary force taunt that as soon as the taunt is up, the mob will be running right back to the "idiot hunter").
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