Thread: 2 handed versus single handed weapons

Hi, does anyone knows what situations to use 2 handed weapons vs single handed weapons? Thanks.

Yes the search button does

I think it's a matter of preference really. I've heard some say the timing/mechanics of the 2-handed weapon has a better feel/flow to it. I myself prefer 2 single handed weapons on my champ, but I prefer a halberd/2h sword on my cap. Depends on class and skills, and how it feels for you. I thought it slowed my champ down with a 2-handed weapon, but for my cap the timing felt better with a 2-hander. IMO it's up to you and the feel.

I wouldn't go 2H, with my luck I would waste a WSotEK on a 2H and get +agility, + will, + OOCPR.

There seems to be a consensus (however fragile) that a 2H weapon is better v. single target--so PvP or solo mobs (especially boss fights).

For:

• DPS role in fellowships and raids: pick whichever type you prefer. The difference between the two styles is marginal. If you are having more fun, you're probably doing more dps.
• Tanking: dual wield. You build pips faster, hit Bracing Attack more often, and skill animations are faster allowing you to fit in all those tanking utility skills.
• PvMP: 2-handed. I'm not sure why this is, but this is the consensus. It has something to do with creep damage reflects, and bigger critical hits.

Since the Isen update (when our vital stat caps were removed), it seems like the 2H is being stacked as the weapon of main choice for us.

Before Isen, I was strictly DW because there didn't seem to be a discernable difference between the two; so, I favor the extra stats a good off hand weapon can provide. Now, we have this really high might stack; but, we're being constantly being mitigated by mobs, bosses and creeps' defenses. So, our raw high damage output is really key because of the mitigations.

The key skills for 2Hs are a) brutal + clobber and b) ferocious. The reason is ALL three strikes with the 2H carry the much higher 2H stats. So, let's say with a 2H, each hit averages 1k damage. With a DW, the main hand will hit at, say, 800 and the offhand at 400. Now if the mob/boss/creep have defense mitigation that negates, say, 300 damage, then, the 2H will generate 700 per hit (for all 3 hits) totaling 2,100 of damage. The DW will generate 500, 500 and 100 totaling 1,100 of damage. Now, add to it that Brutal only takes 3 fervour PIPs and it adds up to Brutal + Clobber being very spammable.

My numbers here are illustrations; my suggestion is to (if you're lvl 75) go to Limlight Gorge and practice soloing a Huorn or a Spider and see for yourself.

I do carry one handers for dual wield for the following circumstances-

1) In 3 mans or runs like Foundry where AoE and off-tanking (keeping mob from healer/light armours) where generating more contact and bleeds are key, and
2) Going INTO a fight armed with the higher vitality/morale (because we tend to get hit first by something that can range) that the DW weapons give; then, once the fight engages (where I draw aggro or the tank has drawn aggro), I switch to the 2H.

My experience is even when tanking, I can't chance lowering my DPS with DW because the healer may run out of power (this tends to be more true in PuG groups) or the healer may get one-shoted. I find that I normally have to switch to the 2H to generate the much greater net DPS once I establish aggro.

There are far more detailed analysis in previous posts; the above is just my personal gaming experience.

Hope it helps.

/smackhead

It didn't matter at level 50. It didn't matter at level 60. It didn't matter at level 65. It STILL doesn't matter at 75.

Anyone else who says it does is just rambling to look good. There are pros and cons to both, and one may pull ahead of the other in specific situations, but at the end of the day, it still doesn't matter. You will not get chewed out by any raid leader or kicked out of any instance because you're DWing or 2hing, as long as you know what the heck you're doing.

The end. Still.

You should be dual welding two-handed weapons.

Originally Posted by Feybobiam

It didn't matter at level 50. It didn't matter at level 60. It didn't matter at level 65. It STILL doesn't matter at 75.

QFT





*with the exception of tanking, then you want to DW hands down.

My suggestion, now that the Worn Symbol of Celebrimbor isn't that hard to get anymore, is just to level up both a 2H and a one hand- then, play and see if it makes a difference.

dietbomb's short summary above is well said and succintly summarized- so, it's already a good guide for when to use 2H vs. DW.

There are senior high level players (especially those who are in very good raiding kins), where 2H vs. DW doesn't matter because, well, those players are really really good and do know what they're doing.

Also, when leveling up towards lvl 75, it doesn't matter because, yes, it's really a matter of killing a few more or less creeps depending on whether you're lucky with crits.

However, for those of us who are more casual players; but, striving to play at the same high level as a senior high level player, my own game playing experience is that a 2H DOES matter (after the Isen update.)

Take PvMP. In my specific circumstances, I'm limited in my amount of game playing time. So, between the 3-mans, 6-mans, deeding, leveling up virtues, leveling up virtues and then grinding repeatables (oh, not to mention the raids), I find I get out to the Moors every now and then. Once there, for casual players like myself, well, go try hitting a fast moving, experienced creep. So, I find I need to execute big hits with low fervour PIP requirements- basically, hit them when I can. That's why the 2H works using brutal + clobber works well in PvMP situations. It only takes 3 fervour points to execute.

Then, there's the situation of (relative) advanced play. There are 3 to 4 (T2) raid level champs in my kin who are vastly more experienced than I; but, they all have multiple toons. So, there's times when I join in on T1 raids, T2 3/6 man challenge mode instances and I'm playing along side their alts as well as newer, less experienced kinnies. Also, there are times when I'm joining in another kin's runs and, then, sometimes pure PuG groups. So, there have been numerous times where whether I get a boss down (or not) made the difference in getting the instance done (or at least not wiping.) Half the group has gone down and the healer is almost out of power. The 2H works well because I'm generating all 2H big hits using brutal and ferocious every time they're up while preserving enough power to finish out the fight.

It's understood that, for the advanced, senior players playing in raiding kins, "it doesn't matter." It's for the more casual players- it may matter- so, again, I'm just hoping this helps.

So what you're saying is that, if you're skilled, you can make either one work, but that 2h is clearly better?

I don't think people are saying that "if you're skilled, you can make either one work" but rather that the *actual* DPS potential of either is so close that you're almost always going to be better off using whichever one you're more comfortable with.

Maybe i am a little of topic here but i just started bringing my champ to 75, he has been afk since lvl 65 (old main).

But regarding dw and 2h discussion (the ever ongoing one) i would say with the rise of offhand stats the dw has gained more benefits compared to 2h. Stats on 2h has only risen small amounts between lvl 65 and 75, offhands can be found with really high stats (here you can also swap for the need).

Otherwise i stick with those who says taste is all that matters in the long run.

Originally Posted by Feybobiam

It didn't matter at level 50. It didn't matter at level 60. It didn't matter at level 65. It STILL doesn't matter at 75.

Strongly disagree. Any champ that wants to maximize dps should have both.

1hander legacies: Wild attack, crit damage mutliplier, aoe damage and if you have a 4th major, feral strikes damage.

2hander legacies: Relent/Remorse damage, crit multi, brutal strikes damage and if you have a 4th major, ferocious cd.

Get used to weapon swapping. Lotro's combat is slow enough to do this effectively.

Ok- so here's an actual instance that happened.

We were in a Foundry T2 run, 5 kinnies and 1 friend (mini). Guard, champ (me), hunter, hunter, cappie and mini. Although our friend mini doesn't use vent (voice), this would normally have been a fast 45 minute run. (And it wouldn't have mattered whether I used my 2H or dual wield.)

Well, our cappie dropped and found a PuG burg as a replacement. The burg also doesn't use voice. So, we lost our heals and we have to type communications to the non-kinnies.

When we got to the boss fight, we wiped a couple of times. So, I went Glory (my standard trait is with 4 blues) and put on my defense rune- this gave me 9k of morale with Exulted Combatant activated. Using my 2H-

- our single healer now doesn't have to worry about me (I throw on my bubbles early as well.) In reality, she only have to keep the hunters and the burg up through to the last stages of the fight.
- I can still generate decent damage via the 2H. In Glory, even with the ardour/glory PIP legacy us, my fervour PIP generation is slower. But, with only 3 PIPs, I was able to spam brutal + clobber.
- I generate enough threat so the attention is off the others; but, not enough to pull aggro from our guard. Also, I was able to engage one of the bosses when he comes out of his neutral mode.

We were still a little haphazard; but, we finished the fight that try.

The real singular key why there's a differentiation with a 2H (after the Isen update) is the ability for champs to generate major hits using improved brutal (+ spamming clobber.) Lotro has stacked the stats that way. Witness that with traiting red line, there's a crit and damage bonus given to brutal. Also, with the red raid armour from Saruman/Orthanc, there's a cool down bonuse on Ferocious if we use brutal.

So, it's not 2H vs. dual wield, but really it's the situational usage of the 2H where it makes a difference. (Since I only play one toon) I now carry four 2nd age weapons and three 2nd age runes. I have two 2H and two one handers. For myself, arming with a 2H with the specific purpose of using brutal + clobber in certain key situations, simply, makes a difference.

For each person, my suggestion is simply level up a 2H as well as a one hander (even if it's only third ages.) Then, look at the tool-tips and see the difference in damage a 2H makes using brutal or ferocious. Then, go to a practice dummy (especially one with mitigation) and test it.

P.S. A successful T2 Foundry run does matter because it drops 25 seals and about 300 medallions if completed.

So again, you're saying that 2H is better. I would say that your anecdote is simply that and doesn't really remotely qualify as convincing evidence. I also don't really understand your strategy in that fight. Were you tanking one of the bosses? What's the point in generating aggro to "keep it off others" if you're also not trying to pull it off the guard?

If you have a competent tank and healer, the final foundry boss fight is most easily approached having the tank tank both bosses directly opposite the forge from where you enter the room. DPS the forge, then Gash, then Pen, each until they go green. This involved minimal movement and if your DPS is decent you should wind up with substantial breaks with nothing to attack after Pen goes green each round. Even if your healer isn't the best, this strategy is *still* the best as it's going to be easier for a healer to focus on one person taking the damage rather than two. The only time it's really worth it to have two tanks on the bosses is when your tank is really, really inexperienced/poorly geared/both.

Long story short, if you're not tanking one or both bosses, you should be taking very little damage during this fight and a healers shouldn't have to worry about you anyway. If you're needing heals all the time, you're either not running around when you've got the eye and Pen is up, you're running into the Master's Blessing fire, or you're standing in front of Gash and taking AoE damage.

So yes, build both and test both - notice that tooltips on brutal and ferocious will be higher for 2H, but that you'll also attack slower. Do parses for both on training dummies and you'll probably wind up going with the one that's doing more DPS for you because combat feels more fluid for you using one or the other.

if u like pizza take dual wielding, if u like spaggeti go for 2 hander

What about people who like pie?

One handed:
- Single target
- Tanking (helps reduce Sudden Defence CD quicker)
- AOE

Two handed:
- Single target
- PvP
- If you're having power problems using One Handed.

Originally Posted by Fralin

What about people who like pie?

Those are hobbits so they cant be champs OP guards at best

Originally Posted by Galmarrar

Those are hobbits so they cant be champs OP guards at best

Ever heard of Beer-pies?

Originally Posted by Fralin

Ever heard of Beer-pies?

beer is for drinking, again beer-pies sounds like some hobbit gimmick. Dwarves cant trust this

Im doing currently doing single hander for AOE and 2hander for single target and have been since i hit 75 and got the 2 weapons, i started it just to test it out but then after crunching the numbers (with my play style - just mine) i get more dps out of the dual wield doing AOE attacks , and with the 2hander a tiny amount more on single targets, so ive got my single hander setup for AOE and the 2 hander with remorseless strike dmg and ferocious strikes CD, BUT after trialing some things i actually swap out the single handed wpn after building the fervour up, and then hit with the 2 hander with the better remorseless strike dmg or the Ferocious strikes CD so i can hit it more times and this seams to do the most Damage ( for me - just me, as i dont know how everyone else plays so how can i really say anything other than 'for me' ) But there are so many variables like if you get a monster crit with one and not the other it throws it out, when i tested it i did heaps of testing over and over again, and just averaged the numbers so it maybe flawed in some way but i dont care as i only did it for me, but i thought id share what id found here.

But ( and these suggestions are just for casual players that just want one way or the other) for the part time player getting 2 weapons and swapping them all the time would just be a pain, so my suggestion just dual wield because it seams ( to me and my style) that it does more damage in the AOE department and thats what im doing mostly in any instance i do ( carving up 6 mobs doing heaps of AOE attacks). So that's why id suggest that (just a suggestion)
For Single target what ive recorded and checked is that the damage difference is tiny so if your just having one weapon id just go dual wield.
Again just my observations from my play style, and any suggestions are just for part time champs or casual players, Main Champs or the like, know whats best for them already and im not suggesting anything to them, they dont want or need it.

Originally Posted by Winters101

Im doing currently doing single hander for AOE and 2hander for single target and have been since i hit 75 and got the 2 weapons, i started it just to test it out but then after crunching the numbers (with my play style - just mine) i get more dps out of the dual wield doing AOE attacks , and with the 2hander a tiny amount more on single targets, so ive got my single hander setup for AOE and the 2 hander with remorseless strike dmg and ferocious strikes CD, BUT after trialing some things i actually swap out the single handed wpn after building the fervour up, and then hit with the 2 hander with the better remorseless strike dmg or the Ferocious strikes CD so i can hit it more times and this seams to do the most Damage ( for me - just me, as i dont know how everyone else plays so how can i really say anything other than 'for me' ) But there are so many variables like if you get a monster crit with one and not the other it throws it out, when i tested it i did heaps of testing over and over again, and just averaged the numbers so it maybe flawed in some way but i dont care as i only did it for me, but i thought id share what id found here.

But ( and these suggestions are just for casual players that just want one way or the other) for the part time player getting 2 weapons and swapping them all the time would just be a pain, so my suggestion just dual wield because it seams ( to me and my style) that it does more damage in the AOE department and thats what im doing mostly in any instance i do ( carving up 6 mobs doing heaps of AOE attacks). So that's why id suggest that (just a suggestion)
For Single target what ive recorded and checked is that the damage difference is tiny so if your just having one weapon id just go dual wield.
Again just my observations from my play style, and any suggestions are just for part time champs or casual players, Main Champs or the like, know whats best for them already and im not suggesting anything to them, they dont want or need it.

u still have not covered the topic of spaggeti vs pizza vs pies (beer-pies to be exact)

If you understand the pros and cons of Dual wield and you craft your toon with those in mind and you learn the feel and rotations that are effective with Dual wield, then Dual wield is best.

If you understand the pros and cons of 2H and you craft your toon with those in mind and you learn the feel and rotations that are effective with 2H, then 2H is best.

I'd suggest the question is NOT a matter of which is better.

The question is what are the advantages/disadvantages of each?

PvMP is an area I kinda know something about...and I can say with CERTAINTY that a player who thinks that just using a 2H is better because they're in the moors is NOT making an informed choice and will likely underperform an equally geared player with dual wield who DOES know why they're making that choice.

There are benefits to both. But if you don't know how to take advantage of those benefits, and reduce the costs then it just doesn't matter what you choose.

Originally Posted by Thane9

If you understand the pros and cons of Dual wield and you craft your toon with those in mind and you learn the feel and rotations that are effective with Dual wield, then Dual wield is best.

If you understand the pros and cons of 2H and you craft your toon with those in mind and you learn the feel and rotations that are effective with 2H, then 2H is best.

I'd suggest the question is NOT a matter of which is better.

The question is what are the advantages/disadvantages of each?

PvMP is an area I kinda know something about...and I can say with CERTAINTY that a player who thinks that just using a 2H is better because they're in the moors is NOT making an informed choice and will likely underperform an equally geared player with dual wield who DOES know why they're making that choice.

There are benefits to both. But if you don't know how to take advantage of those benefits, and reduce the costs then it just doesn't matter what you choose.

QFT

....its not just that it doesn't matter which you chose but rather if you chose without understanding why or if you chose against your prefered style then you will never maximize that playstyle to the point where it achieves the particular desireability you sought.

Put another way. It may in fact be probable the the highest consistent DPS numbers are acheived by hot-swapping between DW and 2H throughout the fight BUT if you are adverse to that playstyle, if you don't WANT to play that way, then you will never commit to learning it enough for any theoretical DPS improvement to become actual for yourself. The same is true for straight up 2H and DW playstyles...if you don't WANT to play a certain way then you will never maximize that playstyle even if there is a theoretical superiority.

For me, it's like this:
Dual wielding:
+Better sustained DPS
+Excellent AoE and Single Target
+Several skills get more hits and are(arguably) more powerful
+Can use skills more quickly
+More pips
+Ferocious Strikes does more damage when you DW than if you use a 2H
-Power is used up more quickly
-Not the best at burst DPS, so enemies in PvMP can heal
-Several skills don't get a bonus hit, such as merciful strike
-Ferocious Strikes takes up a legendary slot and requires more pips than Brutal

2H:
+Best burst DPS for champs
+Uses less power
+Several skills deal more damage with a 2H than when you DW
+Brutal Strikes is more powerful than Ferocious, saving you a legendary slot and not requiring you to save up as many pips.
-Not as great sustained DPS
-Not as good AoE
-Can't use skills as often(as in the time between skills is longer)

I prefer DW due to sustained DPS and AoE, but a 2H is good for a constant wild attack/merciful strike chain, along with "Fervour Dev Pot + CBR + CB + Fight On" for massive burst. However, the same could be used for DW, which actually has great dev crit damage if you have the right legacies. However, if you DW, you'll probably want Ferocious Strikes, and Raging Blades is a must for DWing.
Then again, I'm not the most accurate person, so...

Some skills are better with dual wield. Some skills are better with a 2h. Decide which is better for each skill. Swap accordingly.

Originally Posted by Kiddyfence

Some skills are better with dual wield. Some skills are better with a 2h. Decide which is better for each skill. Swap accordingly.

QFT
words123

After exhaustive testing I have discerned the significant differences between the two styles:

• 2-Handed - THWOOSH! .... THWOOSH!
• Dual-wield - SchingSchingSchingSplatchSchin g

Originally Posted by Kiddyfence

Some skills are better with dual wield. Some skills are better with a 2h. Decide which is better for each skill. Swap accordingly.

As with the root 2H / DW issue if a player isn't committed to this playstyle, if they don't WANT to play that way then they will never realize any potential DPS improvement.

It is not the weapon size that makes your damage
It is not your skills that makes your damage
It is not a set rotation that makes your damage


I would rather say it is the way u utilize your character in total that makes the difference


Myself i tried 1h after a long time going 2h, i do not notice lower dps in general,
ofc the numbers of each attack is lower but instead i do more attacks.
(actually i like the fast flow of skills 1h style.... power is a little beware though)

Parsing has never shown any significant difference between 1h - 2h and many has done with different results.

Only in etten i would maybe say go 2h because of the extra hundreds from a single BIG crit, and possibility of a 1 shot. And that if solo play. In raid dunno.

There's a lot of good information on 2H vs. dual wield on this, and past, posts. The information is all good.

The only "2 cents" I'll add are-

1) Many comments are made assuming if we champs had a good healer, cappie, etc. My personal experience (as a limited time player) is that with really good players in a well coordindated group, it really doesn't matter all the way up to Saruman Tower T-1 (I've not played Tower T-2.) My prior comments are centered around not always playing with in a "well oiled kin run." There are times where we'll be playing with friends, PuG groups, mixes of players and/or non optimal group make-ups. It's during those times where the specifics of 2H vs. dual wield makes a difference- in tight fights.
2) The presumption is we champs all start with dual wield. Often, at lower levels, the off hand weapon carries additional stats that a 2H doesn't give. I personally started with dual wield and never played with a 2H until the Isen update. Post Isen, it's a dis-service not to at least gear up a 2H. With the Worn Symbol very affordable at skirmish camps, and we champs are built to grind skirmishes if we so choose, my strong suggestion is to simply gear up a one-hander and a two-hander.

Then, during those circumstances as articulated in prior posts, just try out the 2H.

My comment/suggestion is for players reading these forums seeking additional information- go gear up a 2H in addition to your base one-hander- then, concentrate on being really good at timing brutal + clobber. With only 3 PiPs needed, you won't be disappointed using a 2H with brutal as your primary rotation.

Just try? It doesn't cost that much.......

I have a first age 1h and a first age 2h. In my opinion 2h still outweighs 1h in a single target rotation. Remoreless spam is a great dps skill but when parsing on training dummys I consistently do higher dps (150-200dps more) with 2h brutal rotation and power isnt such a problem. This could easly be because my playstyle has largely been focused on a 2h rotation. However in raids with buffs and a good raid group its far less noticeable the difference in DPS if there even is one. I know that sounds odd but seems to be my circumstances with using combat analysis.

Hmm...something I hadn't thought of before: with raid buffs, you'll be above your normal crit rating due to buffs. Then, if you get stuff like RK runesign and the mob is debuffed by a burg, you'll be way above crit cap. Because of the monstrous crit multiplier on Remorseless, it could be that DW damage is getting buffed more in these ideal situations than 2h, making them a lot closer in terms of actual DPS than dummy parses would indicate.

Originally Posted by Wilantuk

I have a first age 1h and a first age 2h. In my opinion 2h still outweighs 1h in a single target rotation. Remoreless spam is a great dps skill but when parsing on training dummys I consistently do higher dps (150-200dps more) with 2h brutal rotation and power isnt such a problem. This could easly be because my playstyle has largely been focused on a 2h rotation. However in raids with buffs and a good raid group its far less noticeable the difference in DPS if there even is one. I know that sounds odd but seems to be my circumstances with using combat analysis.

There is nothing "odd" about the gap between a Brutal-centric and a Remorseless-centric rotation closing in raids compared to a solo Galtrev dummy parse. In raids you will bet a variety of damage and crit buffs, and they all increase Remorseless DPS more so than Brutal DPS in relative terms. Absent a Burglar stack, however, Brutal-centric rotation will still out-DPS a Remorseless-centric rotation in my experience. Hence, I only use Remorseless only when Seeking Blade is up.

Edit: I realize you were comparing 1H Remorseless-centric rotation v. 2H Brutal-centric rotation, but my general point is still applicable.

And I just saw that Gylve made essentially the same point!

Originally Posted by Nakiami

Yes the search button does

Nerd rage much?

Originally Posted by Kingault

+Ferocious Strikes does more damage when you DW than if you use a 2H

You sure about that?

I have a 2H 2A w/ one crystal at 145.6DPS, and Ferocious says three hits at 625 690 730 minimum damage respectively.

DW, with a 1H 2A w/ one crystal (128.1 DPS) and a GR Axe (128.1 DPS), says three hits at 576 647 690 minimum damage respectively.

Originally Posted by weiminc38

Hi, does anyone knows what situations to use 2 handed weapons vs single handed weapons? Thanks.

From the perspective of my 75 Elf Guardian it doesn't really matter as far as DPS goes, because in the end if you are a good player, you should be getting relatively the same numbers... That said, if you want BIGGER numbers that will wind up equaling the 2 one handers, then you should go for a nice big sword.

The Man Champion I am leveling right now seems to prefer the dual wield because it's a much faster feel to the kill... Again it is only the "appearance" of things.

*Summary*
2 One handers or a 2 Hander... Doesn't matter because you'll have the same DPS in the end, it's just the style you prefer!

Originally Posted by Ridspar

*Summary*
2 One handers or a 2 Hander... Doesn't matter because you'll have the same DPS in the end, it's just the style you prefer!

And isn't it great to have the freedom of choice?