Thread: Update 7: Developer Diary Feedback: Fornost

Originally Posted by Lothirien

I (sort of) understand the dislike for splitting instances, but why would anyone be against scaling?

I'm against the scaling of just these two instances. I'd like them to remain the go-to place for the L50 class quest items. I'm not sure how that stuff will work after they're scaled - will they be available as drops at any level? I'm not sure that'll be a good idea because the AH could get over-saturated with all the drops. Basically, I'm not sure how it'll be handled, and if it's handled badly then it'd lose its charm for me. So I rather it not be scaled. I know it's a very paranoid view to take but yeah.

Originally Posted by Widoch

As far as chopping them up, I don't see what the problem is. If you like 4 hour runs, then play the sections back to back. The number of people who would do a 4 hour Fornost run from start to finish is a very small minority of the players. However, the number of people who would put 30 - 60 min into an instance are much bigger. So, it just makes sense to break them up for the majority rather than neglect the majority to please a small minority. The minority can run back-to-back if they really want.

I understand your reasoning (and you'll see that I said the same thing about Fornost). I prefer the open-ended feel the instances give and it's a good contrast to, say, GB or GA which are quite linear. I like having the option of running a sprawling instance (like CD) or a bunch of smaller ones (like GB). Ideally, I'd like us to have the option of running the full instance (with all its locks) or each of the separate parts.

The reasonable side of me agrees that cutting them up into different parts would be really good as more people will be able to play. But try telling that to my nostalgic side; it just won't listen.

If it was simply a case of splitting up the instances so that they could be run in chunks it wouldn't be so bad. So far this isn't the case. GA and GB have changed quite a bit to the extent that the old versions of these instances just don't exist (even in a broken up form).

My biggest problem with splitting up the instances though is that for the most part it is quite unecessary. A lot of the instances already had a branching approach that didn't require a massive trawl through the entire thing. With GA you could already choose which boss you fought once you reached that circular hub, GB you could skip straight to Sambrog, same with Fornost to an extent. The problem was, due to the levelling curve, you'd be almost at the point where the xp and rewards are irrelavant once you'd done all the separate parts. Scaling would fix that with no need to tear the instance apart and lose the epic feel which contributed a lot to my enjoyment of the instances.

People talk about Carn Dum like it's some enormous endeavour but as long as you set your target you can be in and out in under an hour and there's little redundancy when you go back in. We're not idiots, we don't need to be spoon fed in little chunks and we're also (for the most part) not ADHD kiddies who can't stay the course. treat your audience like that and that's who you're audience will become. The reason i play this game is for the atmosphere and the cooperative interaction. Since coming back i've noticed a bit of that's gone and now a lot of groups are more impersonal and less chatty. Massive challenging instances are where friendships are formed, not 30 minute blasts of easy content. Nothing is better at retaining a playerbase than the connections we form in the game but if there are fewer connections then its much easier to move on to the next thing.

I've been a lifetimer for 4 years and although i've sampled other mmos i've never bought into the "big thing". I skipped Aion, SWTOR, got Rift in a steam sale and played for about 5 hours... GW2 is the first big mmo i've bought at its release and the way LOTRO is going is a big motivator for that.

Fornost is too small to be the Capital of Arthedain, as is Anuminas too small to be the capital of Arnor and where's Tharbad as well. :P That said if you did make them real in size it would have some awesome exploration potential and raid potential.

Originally Posted by LeppardUK

I'd like them to remain the go-to place for the L50 class quest items.

Lack of people running anything except at cap has made me miss out on this when it was due, whatever it is. Cap was 65 by then and 50-65 is very fast anyway, perhaps I didn't miss much. Scaling will make more people play there, perhaps, but will it make it easier to access the game content on-level? I doubt it.

Sometimes I see someone asking for a group to run some instance and I simply can't be bothered, lately. Having someone screaming NO DON'T PULL THAT or STAY IN THE SAME SPOT YOU IDIOT without prior information or explanation after gets old fast, as does an hour of preparation, waiting for someone's friend to show up, someone running off after just one wipe (isn't it always the buffer or the healer or the tank?), someone going afk to do whatever, someone going link dead instead of saying they're fed up. Even looting can get people shouting rude things if you click the wrong stuff.

Only once have I had proper instructions and that was for the watcher. Won the pool, had fun. Went only twice later and...noone would listen, noone more experienced with the instance would explain. It was all whine.

So.

If dumbing down means 'make it more obvious what needs to be done without five re-runs' then I'm all for dumbing down. Five re-runs of any instance just will not happen. I have a job already, don't need a virtual one =)

All you see is 'must have done this instance before'. It shouldn't have to be that way. I understand if the people in proper end game gear will want to make sure no others get proper end game gear. It's just unfunny. Like someone said in a different thread 'put all end game stuff in the cash shop if you can't make the stuff readily available through gaming'.

I hate spending hours and hours and end up with second rate junk simply because I take too long breaks for work to be in a certain kin.

THERE. [ /RANT ]

So. Please dumb it down.

Originally Posted by Troj

We're not idiots, we don't need to be spoon fed in little chunks and we're also (for the most part) not ADHD kiddies who can't stay the course.

The executives around here, seem to think we are.

Originally Posted by Troj

GW2 is the first big mmo i've bought at its release and the way LOTRO is going is a big motivator for that.

I am leaving for GW2 for the same reason, I am tired of being treated like cash-cow w/o intelligence here.


Adding to that; I really think a revamp of Fornost is a good idea, since it was a really well written storyline, with interesting dialogue embedded into it. Chopping it up, and losing the integrity and essence of the instance is hard to justify.

So, as with most contents in LOTRO as of recent days, it will just become a mindless grind-fest.

Originally Posted by jwbarry

While we know there are those out there who are loathing Fornost being chopped up, it was something that needed to happen.

There is no evidence to support this. There are no scaling instances available in the game that require larger amounts of time to complete. Without at least one such instance, and the usage data that it would provide, you have no basis for telling us that everything needs to be organized into 45 minute chunks.

Next time you re-vamp a raid, maybe you should try the level scaling and reward scaling first, WITHOUT chopping it up, and see what happens.

Originally Posted by Troj

If it was simply a case of splitting up the instances so that they could be run in chunks it wouldn't be so bad. So far this isn't the case. GA and GB have changed quite a bit to the extent that the old versions of these instances just don't exist (even in a broken up form).

My biggest problem with splitting up the instances though is that for the most part it is quite unecessary. A lot of the instances already had a branching approach that didn't require a massive trawl through the entire thing. With GA you could already choose which boss you fought once you reached that circular hub, GB you could skip straight to Sambrog, same with Fornost to an extent. The problem was, due to the levelling curve, you'd be almost at the point where the xp and rewards are irrelavant once you'd done all the separate parts. Scaling would fix that with no need to tear the instance apart and lose the epic feel which contributed a lot to my enjoyment of the instances.

People talk about Carn Dum like it's some enormous endeavour but as long as you set your target you can be in and out in under an hour and there's little redundancy when you go back in. We're not idiots, we don't need to be spoon fed in little chunks and we're also (for the most part) not ADHD kiddies who can't stay the course. treat your audience like that and that's who you're audience will become. The reason i play this game is for the atmosphere and the cooperative interaction. Since coming back i've noticed a bit of that's gone and now a lot of groups are more impersonal and less chatty. Massive challenging instances are where friendships are formed, not 30 minute blasts of easy content. Nothing is better at retaining a playerbase than the connections we form in the game but if there are fewer connections then its much easier to move on to the next thing.

I've been a lifetimer for 4 years and although i've sampled other mmos i've never bought into the "big thing". I skipped Aion, SWTOR, got Rift in a steam sale and played for about 5 hours... GW2 is the first big mmo i've bought at its release and the way LOTRO is going is a big motivator for that.

I agree with this completely. My experiences from GB and GA were only from after the split, and they did feel more like Skirmishes than Epic Instances. As for Carn Dum and Urugarth, they are THE instances in the game. Nothing else I have seen comes even close to the design and fun in the fights. Granted, they are long runs on level, but if they were chopped into separate bits, they would just become another small skirmishes.

Chopping down can easily be done while still leaving the instances as they are. The instances mostly already have doors between levels anyway. If there will be new versions, at least leaving the old ones as classics (even non-scaling) would serve both sides. I would be willing to actually travel to CD by foot to enter it by the door if it meant I would get the real epic experience of how it was originally intended.

As instances seem to be these days, they are just dancing in a circle clapping your hands by a set choreography, nothing else. There is nothing unexpected. Master it once, and it becomes a farm. The best example by far of this in my opinion is Northcotton Farm. Great athmosphere and story, but after you beat it once, there is no challenge whatsoever. And I really don't want to talk about /slapping the Hobbits... ;-P

Originally Posted by Nicepants42

There is no evidence to support this. There are no scaling instances available in the game that require larger amounts of time to complete. Without at least one such instance, and the usage data that it would provide, you have no basis for telling us that everything needs to be organized into 45 minute chunks.

Next time you re-vamp a raid, maybe you should try the level scaling and reward scaling first, WITHOUT chopping it up, and see what happens.

LOL you tell them

A true expert in the making

While i admit, it IS HARD to get group to go in Fornost, i still would like that the rewamp and chopping up the old instances would leave the originals also still available to be run as they were. Please?

I wont be able to compare Fornost, but Great Barrows i did both before and after. Before, it took time to plan, get together, and yes, there were problems, people dropping off halfway etc, but it was a thing to do, and there was a huge feeling of accomplishment when you finally did it. Now its just another fast skirmish, one does for that 0.01% of the stat tome drop in the end or to get exp for levelling if one is a F2P...

Well... what shall I say? ... JUST STAY AWAY FROM THE RIFT!!!

Fornost was designed and built in a different era of MMO.

That is funny... today our e-mails are not on servers anymore, they are in the cloud!!111!
How do you guys think about providing the only old-school-mmo with in-game-shop?


Sorry but the only reason why those huge instances were not played anymore is because of

• bad loot in relation to max. lvl-instances

• boredom because of the stiff monster-/instance-level (non scalable for higher lvl players)

• even players with an appropriate level for these instances do not have anything but the story in there. Because of turbines objective to just push every new player to the endgame there is not enough time to explore instances. If players would be led to (and IN) these old places during questing they still would play them more. Fornost was even back in 2007 off the track content because it was for level 40's. I leveled every character to maximum level without ever do questing in the fields of fornost or fornost itself. Garth Agarwaen had the same problem and still has it because people do not need this area to go ahead. If you finished lonelands/ost guruth you already can jump over to esteldin. You do not even need trestlebridge anymore. Well from this point your fornost revamp makes sense - why make an expensive overhaul of the northdowns to make them fit the rapid leveladvance of the players when we can also ignore the western side of northdowns, and use fornost as another multi-level-instance?

I really hope that you have not hack'n'slayed fornost as bad as helegrod! Btw helegrod was a great instance with a very good story. I do not know if one of you played it since there but why is there no GOOD chain of quests for players which is leading them in there and replaces what you have taken away when you chopped it up? When helegrod was new it was "go heroes and beat the cruel forces of evil" today it is just "hey there are some morons with good loot in there - I do not know who they are or what they did but let's mess 'em up"... no epic feeling anymore. And surprise - it is still not easy to find a group to finish the spider wing in T2 challengemode - why should people do this when killing thorog 20 times a day gives each of the 24 raid members an advantage but trudging through the zaudru (sorry, I do not know her english name) battle gives noticeable lesser reward to everyone but gives (maybe) a rare shield or whatever which can only be used by a small group of raid members.
It is not that I only focus on loot. It is that everyone in random raids is focussed on loot! And with instance finder and stuff you prefer random groups! The usual "randomer" (stated that he already knows the story of each instance) wants to see cash (or appropriate other loot) when he looks for an instance to do.

What turbine can do to make old instances like the old fornost or helegrod more often played?

• Adjust the whole common theme from the beginning on to led people through each area, just like you (supposedly) did in moria

• Whipe out unscaled instances for players which are not on the level cap - skirmishes were introduced to give them instances but through that you made normal instances obsolete because leveladvance got even more fast with them (skirmishes) and players were distracted from regular instances.

• Regular instances can be introduced during the storyline(/common theme thing above there) and also be available as a scalable instance as great barrows (not necessarily as chopped up as gb/hele) from the point you level through there

• Regular instances should give the same rewards as skirmishes until the player has reached the maximum level. From there it is your job to create desireable items which can be gained through completing the instances. The main thing here is that you do not provide the items only with marks/points/<putanyothercurrencyhere> because this will create the same situation as since mirkwood - people will only play the easyest way to get their stuff so each instance needs a stimulus for each class why it should complete this instance. For example 2 players are getting a special "Mud-ball from Fornost" when the group is completing it and with this and some sigils/medaillons/marks they are allowed to get their shiny Fornost-shield/-bagpipe/-sword or whatelse. As in ettenmors those items can/must be updated according to new level caps! The bad thing about this is that with every level cap someone has to spin the screws of those items to the right level - the good thing is that you do not have to completely refurbish abandoned instances with new items somwhen else.

• Effect should be that people level up as fast as you want them to reach the endgame and if really every instance has the same incentive to each class then you get every instance used. (Some bad people told me this is not the goal - the goal would be to have old instances on the one hand and often played instances on the other. So then you are able to revamp them as soon as nobody plays them anymore and can offer it as completely new stuff... as said - really mad pessimists )

PS: I bet my Lash Fragment that if you would set the rifts instance level to the current maximum level (and maybe adjust the items) it would be visited as often as in 2008 - length (or to avoid misconceptions - duration) is not the point especially with IDs!

PPS: While typing more than 1 hour I think I have not maked clear enough how bad your so called "revamped" hacked to death instances really are and that it is not only loot what makes people play instances. In this point I agree with my previous speakers - these instances have loosed something of their atmosphere and I disagree with the assertion they are still as atmospheric as the old versions of them. To say they are just skirmishes is correct - and sad.

Hey Devs, fix the weapon bouncing. It's causing unneeded animation.

one serious question: how many of you who dislike the redesign of Fornost were actually playing the instance before? And I mean more than once? (this is of course valid for other redesigned instances as well)

Originally Posted by Ingaras

As for breaking it up and scaling it: So far I've found it a disappointment, but Fornost is the one instance that probably needed it most... but I just can't understand why does every single 6-man need to have the same 45-60 mins target time and have similar buildup with 2 or 3 bosses with comparable sets of 'special effects'? Can't we have one or two that do target players who like more extensive instances?

I've recently been solo-ing/duo-ing Urugarth and am still impressed by it: it's such a different atmosphere from any of the recent instances. Clear sky... you're able to look ahead. Non-linear paths through the instance. Areas that mean sudden death if you're walking in unprepared. Patrols that run off to call for help and pull half the instance upon you if you don't get them... instead of silly Orcs that just stand there and watch you slaughter their friends. Compared to that the newer instances feel much more scripted and rigid.

I agree 11000%.
I hate the new face instances are getting and i couldn't care less that it took longer/harder with the old system,
that's what gave the instances its charm.
It would've been nice just to make it scalable but leave the rest as it is.
Why oh why do we need the SAME thing now in Fornost which every other instance has?
GB/Helegrod/GA all following the same ultra-boring winged pattern, when i actually did it back in SoA days it was FUN and interesting, nobody cared about loot, it was all about having a blast with ur mates in a longer, more vast and exciting instance.
It's just idiotic where instance content is going; where the game is going.
It seems that now they keep making short, quick, rewarding, braindead, non-skilled runs to please all the P2W's who have concept how to enjoy the game without having it right here and right now, epically fast with no effort input. Why can't we have something more longer and enjoyable with a more relaxing atmosphere. Get a free evening, get some beers and dried squid out, have a chillax run for a few hours with ur mates (or kin or w/e), without the same linear pattern like all the new instances do. You pick the fights, you pick the bosses, you pick the direction where to go (when u got the key ofc).
There is NO restrictions as in which boss or which part of the instance u wanna do 1st, whereas all the new instances u have absolutely no choice, it's all in a usually 2x3m corridor following down with same mobs after same intervals, just getting more of 'em as u proceed. Where the flip' sake is the fun in that?
Yeah - i farm foundry, it gives nice rewards (seals/meds), do i enjoy it? Heck no, it's the most boring 6-man after GS, and even GS had more ingenuity put into it than this.
I'm lvl 75 on 6 toons, done fornost about 30 times over 4 years, and i still enjoy going there to revisit, not for the rewards, but for the beauty of the instance itself. Wish it was the same but lvl 75, but heh... another instance i won't do, same as i didn't do GB/Hele/GA after they winged and ruined it - just sad, really is.

Originally Posted by Talaixa

one serious question: how many of you who dislike the redesign of Fornost were actually playing the instance before? And I mean more than once? (this is of course valid for other redesigned instances as well)

Done fornost about 30 times on 9 alts over the past few years, same with GB and GA, even at max levels - for the fun not for loot.

So, we logged in once servers were up and six of us went inside Fornost.

Changed in lighting/textures are welcome - the whole place has a much more pleasant look now. Once we went inside, changes were apparent - stuff that wasn't there before, stuff that was there now gone, wall in place of roads and other layout changes - that's OK, to be expected from a revamp. Many bosses apparently changed locations as well - gives it an unusual feel, not to mention they have 30x time more morale and everything that goes with it.

Wraith of Water. Level 75. Tier 1. So we went in, killed first 2 bosses, rescued Sara, did two optional quests - got some marks, medallions and couple of gold each. So far so good. Got to the wraith, killed him without trouble. Both first and third boss chest dropped unimpressive purple pieces. Well, that is to be expected from T1 - we never wiped and only two of us died here and there.

Wraith of Earth. Level 75. Decided to try T2 after our success in previous wing. We walk in... and first boss tears us to pieces. We prepare a little more - same result. His buffs allow him to hit for over 8k on a non-crit. Not good. We try some more strategy and after 3 or 4 wipes total we kill him. Yay! The purple piece from the chest is unimpressive again - well, we're no at challenge yet. We go inside, kill Trolls and Goblins, do two optional quests, proceed into tower, reach last boss. Challenge is not to kill any adds... okay. We wipe once, then again, again... by this time most of us died 5-6 times and almost everybody leaves to repair. Eventually we all come back, select a new precise strategy and with many deaths and a lot of effort we complete the challenge. Yay, guys, we rock! Except we get no seals - only the same marks and medallions. We also have completed the deed for this wing - reward is a whooping 10 medallions, wow! We open the big chest and all there is within is one bounty and another purple uninspiring piece.

Seriously, Turbine, what were you thinking? Even Great Barrow and Annuminas still award some seals when you complete L75 challenge, but not Fornost? Also, even on T2 all we get is below average purple piece, worse than the loot from T1 Isengard 3-mans (which is not worth using either). We wiped 8 times and dealt with two hellish waves on adds (on 1st and 3rd boss) and we don't even get any Seals for it? With no seals and no teals, why would you expect anyone would run it at all? They'll just keep farming T2 Foundry/T1 Fangorn's Edge for Seals/Medallions, with occasional RoF for eggs/teal bracelets. Myself, I would run them just for deeds even if there were no other rewards at all - but how am I supposed to find 5 other people for it, when everybody knows it's a waste of time, compared with much easier (yes, easier) T2 Foundry?

Originally Posted by Talaixa

one serious question: how many of you who dislike the redesign of Fornost were actually playing the instance before? And I mean more than once? (this is of course valid for other redesigned instances as well)

While I also played the instances for fun after beeing out of the fitting levelrange this is not the right question. We know that fornost as is is dead but to think that the instance will be better just because it is devided into smaller pieces is the reason why so much people complain against this revamp. Making those old instances "simply" scalable would be enough. Well new monsters and optics also sounds good but fornost will not be fornost as many people liked it (or any other chopped instance).

/DevFail

The only reason why people are in Foundry and RoF all the time is for the seals twice a week for the ridiculous grind of OT gear.

Instead of Farming OT bosses for token pieces of OT gear, they can do OT once, then grind out the pieces in easier more straight forward instances such as Draigoch, Foundry and RoF2

That is why people arent going to be inside Fornost after they have run it a couple of times, because it doesnt give seals

If the devs cant see why people are entering these instances in the 1st place, how can they provide better content

It will be funny to see what becomes of OT when RoR hits, people will not be trying very hard for that OT gear, when they can just grind upto the lvl85 stuff, and its certainly to hard to obtain for the purposes of leveling up

Will the devs notice this. 5bucks says no

waited for so long for Fornost ... last night ofc we took our best rangers and checked closely We did tier 2 challenge ofc all the way. We had cappy, tank, mini (me), burg, LM and champ. On short:
- the instance look awesome, nice graphics
- we wiped 4 times overall, two times at the water boss (had trouble figuring where to stay and not take aggro from adds, also being in healing range of the tank and of the rest of the group, once at the boss with adds where u had to kite them until the boss is on (first time we kill all and the boss had like 20 buffs on him), once on the boss where u must have the whole room in fire and once at the end. Actually we did not wiped, we lost the challenge, make up a strategy and restart the fight.
- the instance can be easy, can be hard. First wing is the hardest, the rest in a walk in the park with a good group.
- i healed overall almost 10 M in 4 h

Loot:
- we did all the deeds, tier 2, challenge mode on boss
- at the end we had like 2k marks, around 500 medalions, and 2 seals from the last boss . That because we did all the deeds, usually doing all the quests u will get around 50 meds per wing. Useless again.
- we had one piece of loot mostly for tactical, useless and one bounty, sometimes tier 3-4 relic or an IXP rune ~ 40-50k
- the loot is like this: at lvl 50 shoulders with 30 will, 30 fate, 300 critt, 100 morale, at lvl 75 the same shoulders with 50 will, 50 fate, 500 critt, 200 morale. they are scalable like the instance, useless anyway and trust me, no one will use them, also it was very hard for me to keep the group up sometimes, i am sure u will not enter there to do challenge t2 geared with crafted gear.

Trust me, i never had so much fun there from long time, was awesome. The boss where all the mobs stay around and cheers at you, and suddenly all of them attack you was epic, was fun. Nice challenges, some new stuff like killing the boss in 1.5 min, the challenge of water boss is crazy btw if u dont have ranged dps like we did not ... nice job Turbine.
Too bad that ... oh, u did not realised until now? No one will run the instance second time. Why? Why doing? Except fun loosing 4 h for nothing is not nice. 2 seals from the last boss? Even the skirmishes raids give a lot of nice stuff, excelent jewellery, seals, meds ... in Fornost is nothing. Maybe in the next update they will fix the loot also.
Good try, i liked. Too bad that at the end, the rewards are 0.

Originally Posted by Feanro

The only reason why people are in Foundry and RoF all the time is for the seals twice a week for the ridiculous grind of OT gear.

Ridiculous grind... lol

It really doesn't take that long to get all the seals you need for a full set of Orthanc armor. Especially if you actually run Orthanc semi-regular.

But back to the point... yes the loot leaves everything to be desired. It isn't balanced at all.

All of these scalable instances are supposed to help out with medallions & marks for the acquisition of of the base teal gear. It's a bit off the mark there. Where it totally fails though is incentive to re-run the instances due to the lack of desirable drops or any reward for t2c. Tier 2 challenge on level should drop seals, always. It should also drop good shiny things.

But I don't think they've understood that the T2 challenges on these are more difficult than any raid skirm... yet the raid skirms actually have good drops. It's perplexing.

Originally Posted by Rawlor

Ridiculous grind... lol

It really doesn't take that long to get all the seals you need for a full set of Orthanc armor. Especially if you actually run Orthanc semi-regular.

But back to the point... yes the loot leaves everything to be desired. It isn't balanced at all.

All of these scalable instances are supposed to help out with medallions & marks for the acquisition of of the base teal gear. It's a bit off the mark there. Where it totally fails though is incentive to re-run the instances due to the lack of desirable drops or any reward for t2c. Tier 2 challenge on level should drop seals, always. It should also drop good shiny things.

But I don't think they've understood that the T2 challenges on these are more difficult than any raid skirm... yet the raid skirms actually have good drops. It's perplexing.

Not perplexing at all - remember the Moria instances? Grand Stair - easy, quick, and the best loot. 16th Hall - harder, long, and terrible loot. Loot commensurate to the difficulty of obtaining it has not been a strong suit for LOTRO sometimes.

However, I do have hope - RockX seems at least willing to communicate with us, which I can't recall any itemization dev doing before.

Sad, angry, disappointed.

Like most everything in the game, now Fornost is no longer going to be a PLACE, it's a scenario. I'm sick and tired of instances. I wanted to play in the WORLD of Middle-Earth, not little scenes of it.

Well, some of our kinnies have gone through it, and enjoyed it. Vs never being able to get a group together for long enough to get the whole thing done previously, and I tried.

Our group run this evening is going to focus on getting as many of our kinnies through it as want to go-keeping in mind that the xp will not be the reward. So, put me in the group that says breaking this instance up is a good thing.

Devs are terrible. I don't know if they are just on too strict of deadlines or if they have no common sense whatsoever. Why scale an instance an have no reason to run it. The game is already dying and it's death is accelerating with the lag issues and the lack of vision from the devs.
I'm not surprised this turned out terrible. But, I would have figured they would figure out by now people don't run instances that have no decent rewards. This will just be another excuse for them to delay scaling up other instances. "Oh, lotro players don't respond well to scaled old instances" they will say. I've heard that excuse from them before. If only they knew it was because they are TERRIBLE and lack ANY VISION when it comes to end-game content. If they want to stay viable in a growing world of creative mmo's they better wake up, learn how to create fun content, and learn that people won't play if there is no incentive.
For those of us who have beaten ToO, this game offers nothing. Sorry to say I'm done. Been trying to get them to wake up since Mirkwood, but alas they think they are too smart to listen to what their PLAYER BASE wants (Kinship Revamp Proposal). CYA LOTRO, maybe I'll come back to see Mordor some day (If the game still exists).

Sad to see after just a day or two day, Fornost has flat lined again. I want to run it Turbine, I also want to run GB and Annuminas, please give us a reason to. At level cap make all the 6 man instances share a loot table and normalize the seals and medallion rewards. Make it so joining the instance finder and choosing a random 6 man isn't a penalty but a reward for being willing to run anything. As it is now, there is no reason to run anything but Foundry.
I know some people will hate me for saying this but put twice weekly locks on the challenge chest so people are forced to do them all if they want a specific shiney that drops from the challenge chest. But again that would only work if the currency is normalized across all level cap instances (scaling or not) and the loot table shared.

I've managed to do the first 2 wings of Fornost on 1 of my five 75's, the rest can't even get in because no one will run them anymore.

In my experience, the reason these places were inactive was because there was no way to get into them alone. Look at Dol Dirnen. It's a huge area that a solo character will get slaugtered in, but it's possible to sneak in through the gaps in the patrols, maybe take on one elite at a time as you work your way in. Groups form spontaneously in there, as you see someone doing that and team up with him on the spot. People that want to be there are already there. The instances, you have to wait around for because you can't get into them at all without a full group due to the large groups of elites at various choke points.

These places need to be PLACES, not instances, and they need to be ACCESSABLE by individual characters so groups can form spontaneously.

I agree with the people that have said no one runs the instance because there is no reward. I did the water wraith and have no desire to go into that instance anymore. I actually don't think its a bad instance either but there no reason for me to do it. the loot is horrendous and I think I got one seal. One seal? Whose idea was that. Even if this run gave out ten seals I could see myself going in there far more often, but one seal seems more like a slap in the face than a reward. Congrats you beat it!!! HA HA HA HA we only gave you a seal, wasn't that a fun waste of thirty minutes!

I loved the old Fornost instance as it was the first instance that I ever ran in any MMO. I was such a complete noob that it took me 9 hours to complete it, and I kept getting lost after every wipe - it was loads of fun. That said, I really like what Turbine did with the revamp. The instances are challenging and fun to run, though some of the challenge modes are kinda silly (really, I gotta jump around from rock to rock and avoid server lag to get a challenge?).

That said, no one will be running this at level cap more than once. No one. The loot is just utterly terribad. I mean, it is just a complete and utter waste of time to run these instances. I don't know anyone that runs them. I don't know anyone that wants to run them. And I am in a kin of inveterate LOTRO junkies that run EVERYTHING all the time.

The loot is utterly and completely pathetic.

I really look forward to the day when Turbine stops letting their itemization department utterly ruin the hard work of their instance devs.

End of rant.

From my point of view, this revamp hasnt really taken off. During the times that I have been online in the last 2 weeks I have never seen a GLFF for Fornost, yet I am continouly seeing Pugs forming for Foundry and RoF everyday. I have done the first wing at level 40 just to see the inside of it, but due to a seeming lack on interest from everyone I havent run it at level 75. Something I would like to do. This leads me to believe that the revamp hasnt been as successful as the Devs would of liked, which is sad

I really don't understand why Turbine goes through all of this effort only to give no incentive to do the instances. Instead of giving nothing for completion, I wish the rewards were about 80% of what the RoI instances are in terms of currency. Still give incentive to do the new stuff, but right now I'm bored of having nothing to do but one real raid, one fake raid, and two six mans at 75, and if I want to do anything else get no rewards whatsoever. If t2c foundry rewards about 400 medallions and 25 seals, I think all the other t2c scalable instances should reward maybe 300 medallions and 20 seals, or something to keep them somewhat competitive, and have the challenge chest drop a piece of jewelry useful for some geared member in the group. I really don't think that is too much to ask for, and it would make endgame a thousand times more exciting than running the same four instances over and over.

Because the loot sucks compared to foundry and ROF and the sub-bosses are nearly as tough as foundry/ROF, with added time limits. The scale of risk v reward is out of whack.

When Fornost revamped first came out - we were quite excited and ran it. But overtime as an alternative instance for end game content we hardly know anyone who runs it. The reason being is that the loot compares unfavourable with the Isenguard and Fangorn isntances.

I always thought that scaling up instances to cap level was to broaden the content and choices available for players at cap. However without the competative alternative rewards and loot they just will not be run. Is there not a way to include in the scaling up model a scaling up of loot too?