Thread: Which penalty should be removed/less strict for free players?

I didn't list all the penalties but only the ones that seems kinda strict to me (compared to other "F2P" games).

a) Content: quest/deeds packs, 2 premium classes,
b) Nerfs: gold limit, trait limit (monster , char, skirmish), only 2 chars for each server, crafting guild advancemen limit, can't spend destiny points. not able to sell items in auction house, no shared storage, swift travel limit, no riding skill
only 2 chars for each server

I assume it is still possible to get end game items and max lvl without buying anything in the shop.
But it might take a lot more time for traveling without swift travel/horse.Your char is less strong/nerfed with trait limit.
The big bonus is that you can farm TP to remove the penalties. 1 month vip will give permanent unlocks for bags, traits, gold cap and swift travel.

Which penalties should be removed, be less strict?
I was hoping one or more suggestions written below, might improve the game.
1) 4 or 5 char slots for each server (vip gets more). It will encourage more alts, more testing, more shopping.
2) Premium classes should be unlocked for every one. Don't you hate it, when you can't play new classes?
3) Not being able to use your mount unless you have riding skill ( lotro shop) seems a big nerf for beginners. The game should be more fun without this penalty for new players.
4) Trait/crafting limit does seem like an unfair penalty for high lvl players. Your char seems nerfed
5) Shared storage should be a game seller. Everyone should have a taste of it.
5 slots for free players and 25 slots for vip (you can buy more in lotro store)

6) List 3 items in auction (small taste to let them know how good AH is)
7) Gold limit should be removed, less strict (maybe after they reach lvl 20).
This is not a trial account from another big game

More Vip benefits.
1) Crafting is less boring/time consuming. (bonus exp)
2) Temporary Vip mounts (you can travel even faster for free )
3) Reduced cost ( repairing cost less silver, buying vendor items is cheaper,..)
4) Lower cooldown (instead of 1 hour cooldown for portal, it might be 15 minutes,..)
5) Kinship duration improved (instead of 24 hours it will take 1 week before disbanded)
6) deeds(farming TP) less time consuming (instead of turning 30 quests, it is only 20 quests,..)
7) temporary vip items ( for free) for example some of the cosmetics items.

None.

If you like the game, you can spend some money and become Premium. If you realy like it you can become VIP.

Anyway there are no penaltys for F2P Users.

As a premium player who was never vip I feel that there are some things that are very annoying, I think that the gold cap needs to be raised to 5 for F2P and 10 for Premium. I also think that swift Travel should be a permanent bonus in the store not you buy a token every time you need one, If Turbine can't do that, make all boat travel(Lake Everswim) not vip only.

There are no penalties for those that play free, but there are perks for those who support the game.

Being a VIP I don't see all that you see... but I will put my 2 cents in.

Agreed:
Gold cap -- I can see this going up to 5g max for F2P.
Auction house -- 3 slots seems resonable


All the rest are luxury's and i don't think they need to change.
Riding skill. -- In the beginning it was Level 35 for all and you had to do quests and the riding timed thing to get the skill. And then it costs lots of gold (can't remember but I think the paper was 500sp and the slow horse was 2g) to even by the mount and the ownership paper.

Swift travel -- Again use to run everywhere, that's why hunters and cappy's were so loved for their porting abilities. You see so much when you have to run everywhere or take a slow horse. Enjoy the scenery.

Quests/Deeds -- Umm I do believe a lot of this is open to free to play until you hit around 30 in Lone Lands. Plus you have all the epics the whole way to 75 free. Your asking for free quests all the way to 75?

Premium Classes -- Well they are premium classes and the last two classes that will probably ever be added to the game. I see no reason everyone gets these. That's why they are premium. You have many other classes to choose from.

Trait limit -- I think if you want to be better spend the TP. The end game for most content doesn't depend on this. Only the Major raids like orthanc need to have all traits and up on their levels. You can do most if not all 3 man - 6 man and 12 man skirms raids with limited traits. You can even do draigoch with limited traits. Only thing I think you would need this for is Orthanc 12 man's.

Give or Take:
Destiny Points -- rarely use these if ever so doesn't matter much in my opinion
Shared Storage -- Honestly it is a store purchase and it's a big seller. 5 slots really isn't anything at all. If it makes that big of a difference. Only thing I see is if they give you 5 then everyone will ask for 15.




Things i can't answer too:
Crafting: don't know the limits off hand or guild limits. So I'll leave this one.

All of the VIP "perks" are worthless in my opinion. I see nothing there that would make me want to be VIP if I wasn't allready. The fastest horse is already 68% plus you can earn 20% faster speeds with quests. Stable horse is 100% faster already. Kinship .. cool down on disbanding? why? Cosmetics nice to have, but nothing special about that always new cosmetics out there. Deeds and farming them .. 20 or 30.. umm really no different and probably to much time for dev's to code that in there. I would rather they spend time elsewhere.

That's just my 2 coppers worth. Some interesting idea's though and keep them coming. Anything for more to play, but in all honesty ... go VIP then you don't need to worry about it.

I would see the traits fixed most of all. I think being unable to actually build your toon because the TP earned were needed to unlock zones is overkill. You cannot really excel at your class or gameplay or learn your class without traits.

Boats should be just like swift travel, and both should be purchased as an upgrade. Being unable to travel to meet other players is an aggravation to BOTH the free players AND the paid players who have to wait for their arrival.

I am all about supporting the game, but there is a fine line between making it too frustrating to WANT to support and making it fun enough to ENCOURAGE payment. Turbine is dancing the line pretty well but plenty of people have given up before they got past level 30 because of the excessive restrictions. Turbine promised that the store would not sell things necessary, only convenience. Traits are necessary for reasonable play after level 20 or so. They are required to even function after 50 or so. Travel is not necessary but forcing paying players to wait for their f2p buddy (possibly, their recruited friend?) is not cool.

Originally Posted by forusrname

I would see the traits fixed most of all. I think being unable to actually build your toon because the TP earned were needed to unlock zones is overkill. You cannot really excel at your class or gameplay or learn your class without traits.

Boats should be just like swift travel, and both should be purchased as an upgrade. Being unable to travel to meet other players is an aggravation to BOTH the free players AND the paid players who have to wait for their arrival.

I am all about supporting the game, but there is a fine line between making it too frustrating to WANT to support and making it fun enough to ENCOURAGE payment. Turbine is dancing the line pretty well but plenty of people have given up before they got past level 30 because of the excessive restrictions. Turbine promised that the store would not sell things necessary, only convenience. Traits are necessary for reasonable play after level 20 or so. They are required to even function after 50 or so. Travel is not necessary but forcing paying players to wait for their f2p buddy (possibly, their recruited friend?) is not cool.

I agree with boats it should be the same as swift travel and unlocked if it's not, I didn't realize these were not included when you unlocked swift travel. The only boats I know of are in Tinn and in the past there was only one boat for there and it only worked when you unlocked it. Guess I got use to running and swimming a lot there.

If in a group just look for cappy or hunter to help out with travel needs to make it quicker instead of unlocking swift travel.


I disagree on traits however. I don't believe they are necessary for reasonable play after 20 or required to function after 50. I believe the only time you truely need these are for end level raid t2 runs, currently the orthanc runs. Anything other then that and I believe you can get by with low trait numbers and low number of traits.

Originally Posted by eethan

I disagree on traits however. I don't believe they are necessary for reasonable play after 20 or required to function after 50. I believe the only time you truely need these are for end level raid t2 runs, currently the orthanc runs. Anything other then that and I believe you can get by with low trait numbers and low number of traits.

I think very much that class traits are essential. Virtues not that much.
Class traits and their trait line bonuses are a very important part of a class - for some it is more important for some less - but a toon can only function as it is meant to if you have the class traits.

I am sure you can still do all solo content without them but I still think they are a very essential part of your class.

Overall however I do not think they should be free for f2p. I do not think anything much should be changed besides making a store item to allow at least temporary freep access to the moors.

The point of f2p is to not have to pay a subscription to play the game. It should not be a way to hand you even more for free and some of the unlocks like bags and gold cap and AH slots are account wide anyway (so usually not much of a big deal when having multiple chars) and the same with zones. Missing trait slots and swift travel are probably the most hurtful things when you do not have them as premium/f2p.

Originally Posted by Storage

I didn't list all the penalties but only the ones that seems kinda strict to me (compared to other "F2P" games).

I would love for you to explain which F2P games your are referring to. The specific features you get without paying any dollars. What features you must buy with dollars.

IMHO - Lotro is one of the best F2P models. My reasoning:

1) What other game allows you to earn unlimited item store currency via playing the game?
2) What other game has as much stuff in their item store?
3) What other game has such low prices for as much stuff?

The majority of the Free games seem to use the following two models:

a) You get all the content free. Your character can not make very little progress. The gear you need is only available for purchase with dollars in the item store.

b) You have very little free content. You have to buy the content with dollars. There is gear in the item store to buy.

My feeling is that Turbine gives too much to the Free players. I do not understand how Turbine makes a profit with all the free loaders since you can buy everything except Moors access for your Freeps and swift travel capability without spending any dollars.

It is another of those, I iwll really like to see the internals for Lotro. I suspect the game is being paid for by the small percentage of customers that spend large sums of money in the item store. That is what Zynga does. They like to cater to the folks that spend 100 thousand dollars a year on Farmville and their other games.

LOTR has the very best F2P model on the market. The only other F2P model that rivals LOTR is EVE's 30 day PLEX which can be purchased with in game currency thus unlocking the entire game as if you were a subscriber.

If I had to beg Turbine for any changes to their F2P model it would be all free and zones you purchase with TP have the Swift Travel unlocked. If I buy a zone, at least for me, it was kind of expected. Purchasing Evendim and realizing Swift Travel including boats was not included was rather disappointing to say the least.

Aside from that I hope Turbine stays away from items exclusive to the store which are both required to play in the higher level areas and don't drop in game.

To give people paying no money extra benefits is akin to taking away the benefit of actually giving Turbine money.

Think of F2P as an extended trial period. If you're really hardcore, you can get the whole game without paying a cent. But by no means has Turbine ever intended that most people would get a perfectly acceptable gameplay experience without dropping a cent. They want to let you play free long enough to fall in love with the game, then pay your $10/month like everyone else.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

IMHO - Lotro is one of the best F2P models.

I strongly agree with this. DDO is another one, but being another Turbine game, this
shouldn't be much of a surprise. I think Star Trek Online also gets it mostly right, as well.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

My feeling is that Turbine gives too much to the Free players. I do not understand how Turbine
makes a profit with all the free loaders since you can buy everything except Moors access for
your Freeps and swift travel capability without spending any dollars.

It's just that an MMO is nothing without players. Think about it, if you were a VIP and
could never get a GB run together while leveling your next alt because there were not
enough new players around 20-25, would you be as inclined to stay? Do you really care
if 4 or 5 out of 6 of your fellows are free players? (if you complete, anyway)
Turbine totally gets this - make sure there are enough players so that your paying
players are happy at every level.

On the flip side, I played Rift Light. Totally open to level 20. I played to level 20 and
stopped. But you know, if you play LOTRO to 20 and stop, you're leaving just when the
game is getting interesting and challenging. The longer you let someone play, the better
the chance to set the hook and get some of those microtransactions.

Originally Posted by Frisco

To give people paying no money extra benefits is akin to taking away the benefit of actually giving Turbine money.

Think of F2P as an extended trial period. If you're really hardcore, you can get the whole game without paying a cent. But by no means has Turbine ever intended that most people would get a perfectly acceptable gameplay experience without dropping a cent. They want to let you play free long enough to fall in love with the game, then pay your $10/month like everyone else.

I disagree, it's a balance and the reason LOTR's model works is because it's not an extended Trial. Many people just try it because they know there is an opportunity to play the entire game for free if they have the dedication.

In a bloated MMO market with a ton of these fake F2P games and MMO's that all essentially do the same thing regarding questing, to some people playing for free is the game. You may not like that but it's a reality and it keeps the servers populated. Healthy server population in an MMO is extremely important both from a player perspective and word of mouth marketing.

Originally Posted by KravenK

I disagree, it's a balance and the reason LOTR's model works is because it's not an extended Trial. Many people just try it because they know there is an opportunity to play the entire game for free if they have the dedication.

In a bloated MMO market with a ton of these fake F2P games and MMO's that all essentially do the same thing regarding questing, to some people playing for free is the game. You may not like that but it's a reality and it keeps the servers populated. Healthy server population in an MMO is extremely important both from a player perspective and word of mouth marketing.

I don't understand what you're disagreeing with. I don't argue that it's a balance, I'm only saying that it's well balanced now, maybe slightly in favor of f2p. If anything, the next swing should be to give something extra to the paying customers, since it's already very easy to get 90% of the benefits for the price of a couple sandwiches.

If they start giving away more and more free and take away any reason for people to actually give them money, no amount of server population will keep the servers turned on. Someone has to pay the bills.

Originally Posted by Vulcan583

I also think that swift Travel should be a permanent bonus in the store not you buy a token every time you need one, If Turbine can't do that, make all boat travel(Lake Everswim) not vip only.

I have both a VIP and F2P account and I'm fine with the slow travel unless swift is the only available option (i.e. Hrimberg, Gath Forthnier, etc.). It would be nice for those to be opened up for F2P players.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

I do not understand how Turbine makes a profit with all the free loaders since you can buy everything except Moors access for your Freeps and swift travel capability without spending any dollars.

Not many games use subscription(VIP), f2p(cash shop), expansion to earn money. If DDO wasn't a big succes with f2p . Lotro would stay subscription based. Wow made lots of money by selling mounts and other vanity items
I assume Lotro make more money now, than they used to with subs only.

1) moria expansion is almost sold out in every store instead of in the bargain bin.
Lots of "new" players know what a good deal it is.
2) discount sales in lotro store (it is hard to resist buying when you see a good deal).
3) 1 month vip means a lot of storage and able to quest farther than lone lands (+ other nice bonus)
It will save a lot of TP/grinding. A very good deal
4) Once you are far enough, you would like to play other expansions.
5) You can't have enough storage (premium sharing storage)
6!) A lot of players don't want to waste time with grinding TP when they could enjoy their quality time with fun.
It is comparable with skipping the que(fast pass disney). Would you wait 4 hours or pay 1 extra dollar to enjoy the ride without waiting? Would you like to grind for 30 to 60 TP an hour or just work 1 hour for 8 to 15 usd?

I assume they make money from these customers.
You have
The whales (they are able and do spend a lot) farmvillle/zynga
The semi serious (they just want to enjoy the game fully without obligations or lots of grinding) angrybirds
Shoppers (if there is a good deal, they don't want to miss it) Rune of magic

There is a reason why many players prefer guild wars or lifetime subs . Some people just don't want the monthly obligations.

Another scenario.
A) (before f2p) some player pay 20 dollar for 3 months subs and stops. It is likely they don't play for a full year or more.
The extra cost for lotro for a year (if he keep playing ) should be less than a few dollar.
b) (currently) he would likely keep playing (vip is optional) after taking a break for a month or 2. Maybe buy some things (expansion, quest pack) in the shop or introduce some new players (friends). Those new player might go vip or introduce even more new players. Some of them might really like it and buy all the expansions. Instead of only 20 dollar, turbine might make 100+ dollar ,the extra cost doesn't compare to potential profits !!

Do you know turbine want to spend a lot of money in marketing to get new players? Just think those pure free players as cheap marketing employees and you will understand

Originally Posted by Frisco

I don't understand what you're disagreeing with. I don't argue that it's a balance, I'm only saying that it's well balanced now, maybe slightly in favor of f2p.

Sorry, I was disagreeing with this statement; "To give people paying no money extra benefits is akin to taking away the benefit of actually giving Turbine money.". I believe you can actually open more free benefits and actually increase revenue. An example; when LOTR opened Lone Lands to F2P, which forgive me I don't think was part of the original F2P launch, that it possibly drove more players to the game. More players and you have a greater chance of up selling people on point bundles or just going VIP. Of course the opposite may be true but all of this is pure speculation and only Turbine has the data to support or oppose my example.

Originally Posted by Frisco

If anything, the next swing should be to give something extra to the paying customers, since it's already very easy to get 90% of the benefits for the price of a couple sandwiches. If they start giving away more and more free and take away any reason for people to actually give them money, no amount of server population will keep the servers turned on. Someone has to pay the bills.

I am not sure what you mean by giving paying customers more. Do you mean VIP exclusive content that can not be obtained in the store? The reason I ask is because the next update looks like nothing but VIP only content, unless you purchase the instance, Skirmish or own Moria.

Originally Posted by Storage

I didn't list all the penalties but only the ones that seems kinda strict to me (compared to other "F2P" games).

a) Content: quest/deeds packs, 2 premium classes,
b) Nerfs: gold limit, trait limit (monster , char, skirmish), only 2 chars for each server, crafting guild advancemen limit, can't spend destiny points. not able to sell items in auction house, no shared storage, swift travel limit, no riding skill
only 2 chars for each server

I assume it is still possible to get end game items and max lvl without buying anything in the shop.
But it might take a lot more time for traveling without swift travel/horse.Your char is less strong/nerfed with trait limit.
The big bonus is that you can farm TP to remove the penalties. 1 month vip will give permanent unlocks for bags, traits, gold cap and swift travel.

Which penalties should be removed, be less strict?
I was hoping one or more suggestions written below, might improve the game.
1) 4 or 5 char slots for each server (vip gets more). It will encourage more alts, more testing, more shopping.
2) Premium classes should be unlocked for every one. Don't you hate it, when you can't play new classes?
3) Not being able to use your mount unless you have riding skill ( lotro shop) seems a big nerf for beginners. The game should be more fun without this penalty for new players.
4) Trait/crafting limit does seem like an unfair penalty for high lvl players. Your char seems nerfed
5) Shared storage should be a game seller. Everyone should have a taste of it.
5 slots for free players and 25 slots for vip (you can buy more in lotro store)

6) List 3 items in auction (small taste to let them know how good AH is)
7) Gold limit should be removed, less strict (maybe after they reach lvl 20).
This is not a trial account from another big game

I am a F2P player and I say it isn't a problem as it stands, I have all of these on my account (except crafting limit which I will get when I need it), because I bought them with TP earned in game! Although when I started F2P was 3 character slots not 2. Earning the TP to buy this lot in game is not a problem, which meant that I could use my money to buy the Quest packs and expansions as I could afford to. I have to live on a shoestring budget and account for every free penny. So if I can afford to do this, anyone can!

I feel I'm a bit late jumping in on this topic . .
But first , . . I've only been playing 4 weeks now, just saying that so you may understand my perspective what I posted.

in DDO the f2p does have 1 AH slot they can use, at least it was that way when I last played DDO, So I was shocked that here, a f2p has none, Period. That would be the only Gripe I ad about being a f2p player.
I saw that farming TP is not as easy as farming TP in DDO . . but that was not a issue for me, just something I noticed, That's not saying earning TP in Lotro was harder, but in Lotro it takes me longer if I was to farm TP (compared to DDO TP Farming).
I find the ratio of earning TP as I level is very good , unlike DDO I needed to stop and spend a day or 2 TP farming, in Lotro I'm not.

The Gold cap is not a problem for me . . because I just byte at making in-game money , but I do see (or Guess) that it could be increased for the f2p, Housing comes to mind , f2p will never be able to have a good house or a house period.

And for my time and level into the game, those were the only things (that I saw on the OP list) I would agree and/or sign that I would like to see changed for F2P Players . .

okay that's all I can think of, not sure it's worth 2 coppers worth, but maybe 1 copper

i think the biggest thing is the ability to enter PvP after level 40. i would like to see free players have the right to do this.

mainly because I see quite a few other RvR PvP mmos where it is free to do Team PvP combat.
i can't begrudge Lotro's right to feel they want to keep PvP a premium item though. Turbine works so hard and well on its games and it shows. Maybe later if the competition catches up. They will catch up if Turbine doesn't keep running hard. I don't think just adding quest or level expansion packs will work. Quite a number of mmo players are after gameplay and not just content.

It's a bit too late to remove this restriction without upsetting a lot of players who've already bought it but I've always thought when they made the free-play switch they should have given free/premium players access to ALL the original SoA launch zones (not the newer update zones like Evendim and Forochel of course).

By limiting it to only the three starter areas, originally, they angered a LOT of returning subscribers who felt like they'd already bought those areas with the original SoA box. I read many posts by these players both in these forums and other game sites. Turbine lost way too many potential customers who felt they were either re-buying what they already bought (if they were old subscribers) or felt they were playing a too limited demo (for new players).

They kinda fixed it a bit by making Lonelands free but it was already several months too late. The initial rush of returning players had come and gone.

It's not as if Turbine would have lost much money anyway since, really, how much have they made off of Trollshaws and Misty Mountain sales? They probably lost far more money in lost customers that first month or two than they made by selling those zones.

Being a free player sucks, pure and simple. With only 4 zones to quest in before you have to buy another zone, you're lucky to hit, what, level 30? And then you only get 2 skirmishes. They both get tedious after doing them 40-50+ times. 395 for a skirmish is too expensive, and the rest don't come til level 60+.

The gold limit is just silly. 2g for a free player? I hit that at level 19, and that was just casually questing, making and vendoring armor/weapons, etc. Then I bought a house. Hit the cap 3 levels later. The biggest annoyance for me where that was concerned wasn't the cap.. it was the inability to trade/send currency to anyone. My wife and I both play MMOs, and we constantly trade money/items back and forth as we need them. More than once I had to go out of my way to grind up some items to sell, because of training/repairs/etc.. I'd have 10s, but she'd have 300+ because she takes no damage and thus has no repair bills.

And on the note of grinding TP.. sure, everyone does it. Everyone probably has to, except for the kids who use mommy and daddy's credit card, or those people that make enough pay to actually afford a subscription. If only I were so lucky.. we make below minimum wage here, so I'm lucky if I can even afford 600 pts every 2 months. But to the point: do any of you really understand just how long grinding TP takes?

Oh yeah, it's easy to say, "just go grind out 1k TP, no big deal" - but for the run I take, that's running it 5 times, at ~4-6 hours per run. I might be able to shorten it, if I wasn't married and didn't have a family to take care of (laundry, dishes, cooking, etc), but RL > any game. So 5 runs, 5 hours/run.. 25 hours for 1k TP. What will 1k get you? Sure as hell not as much as 25 hours worth of work should get you. One quest pack with a few hundred points left over, a char slot, a class, some consumable goodies. For 50 hours I could get a mount and have like 20 points left. For 100 hours I could almost buy the Isengard expansion.

I made up a list of everything I wanted from the store (of which there are more things now, but I'll never see them) and if I did one run a day, it would take me 73 days to get it all, because we have next to nothing to spare from our paychecks.

What would I like to see removed/lessened?
1. More zones to quest in, thus more TP, before we are required to buy quest packs. Hell, I'd be happy with having just Evendim.
2. Removal of trading/mailing currency ban.
3. Gold cap increased to 5g for free, 10g for premium.
4. More class/trait/virtue slots for free players. Having to buy the rest at 95/each adds up quickly.

5 Turbine points earned for killing 200,000,000 wargs - that is punishment enough for everyone.

I apologize if it seems like I wasn't happy with the current game (just played for a week).
The only thing that was really bothering me was the shortage of storage. But I guess 2 extra bags won't make much difference anyway
I was thinking what would bother me the most if I had a high lvl char and didn't use the lotro store or vip.
What improvement could be made to keep free players playing without feeling too restricted?
Free players that quit too early is bad for business. you want them to get addicted so they keep coming back.

Originally Posted by KualaBangoDango

By limiting it to only the three starter areas, originally, they angered a LOT of returning subscribers who felt like they'd already bought those areas with the original SoA box. I read many posts by these players both in these forums and other game sites. Turbine lost way too many potential customers who felt they were either re-buying what they already bought (if they were old subscribers) or felt they were playing a too limited demo (for new players).

They kinda fixed it a bit by making Lonelands free but it was already several months too late. The initial rush of returning players had come and gone.

It's not as if Turbine would have lost much money anyway since, really, how much have they made off of Trollshaws and Misty Mountain sales? They probably lost far more money in lost customers that first month or two than they made by selling those zones.

An important reason to make this thread is to get more insight how players are looking at this issue's.
For the example the above post from KualaBangoDango

Other interesting feedback are:
LurtzArcher, Vulcan583 and others about boats and swift travel. Wanadoo about pvp after lvl 40.
Simsiim2 about DDO (AH), monk_tbd about class trait.

I haven't as of yet paid Turbine any money, but I still don't think that it's necessary to open up more things to F2P players. I wouldn't dislike it if they gave people more things for free, but when thinking about the future of this game the limits are necessary. There is not many things that come for free, and salaries have to be paid for those who work. Less money for Turbine, less people will work and less new content and improvements for us.

It's already not that hard to unlock a few QPs and some other stuff, with in-game earned TP.

The restrictions on gold and the AH are there for a reason, mainly to discourage gold farmers.
Or at least make it somewhat harder on them to farm.

What Turbine really botched up though, is the horse riding.
Everything that has to do with travel is always regarded as boring. Teasing the player with how nice riding is then taking it away almost immediately is just annoying instead of encouraging.

The only thing I really wold change is make that gift horse available for 24 in-game hours or 2-3 normal days. Everything else is pretty much OK and others already explained why.

Originally Posted by Storage

I didn't list all the penalties but only the ones that seems kinda strict to me (compared to other "F2P" games).

LOTRO, as Turbine endlessly point out, is a HYBRID game which allows some people to play without paying, while others (the majority) do pay, these restrictions are clearly intended to 'encourage' payment.

Originally Posted by scithen

Being a free player sucks, pure and simple.

Does that mean you would prefer the game to still be subscription only?

It looks as if you still enjoy the game, you get some fun out of paying nothing for the game itself. This is not that bad in the end. As you probably would not be able to afford to go out, to the cinema etc.. this is still a pretty good deal with all its limitations, no?

Of course everyone would like to have more for free but whether that is a good thing for the game itself with repsect to sustainability is another thing.

I could see Turbine maybe opening up another zone after RoR is released as the cap seems to be 20 levels higher than when f2p originally started. It might need that for people to really stay top see the end of the tunnel if their goal is the level cap.
However the first time through it is so rich with respect to content and story that the level cap - at least for me - was really secondary.

Originally Posted by scithen

For 50 hours I could get a mount and have like 20 points left.

Well if getting a horse from the store seems important to you then you will need to set your priorities straight. f2p is doable if one has patience and has his priorities set properly.
I do not think I would still play if I was pure f2p as the ramp up until things start to be fun again is just a bit high (i.e. getting a couple character slots and a few quest packs) and current end game content is quite expensive with TP only.
But then again Turbine has a very good point in making this quite expensive and not easily reachable for f2p. They are a business after all.

I had no problems as a free player. That only restriction that really stymied me was the gold cap. This effects a lot of the game play, there are many things that the gold cap kept the free player from having/doing. It effected much more of the game play then just limiting you to 2 gold pieces. As in you can build your reputation up to where you can buy unique items, but the gold cap prevents it.

Originally Posted by KravenK

In a bloated MMO market with a ton of these fake F2P games and MMO's that all essentially do the same thing regarding questing, to some people playing for free is the game. You may not like that but it's a reality and it keeps the servers populated.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't believe that if Turbine gave out more to f2p's that it would benefit what you're describing. Instead, in that case the "how much can I get for free" game becomes less challenging and thus less of a 'game'.

Originally Posted by manstan

I had no problems as a free player. That only restriction that really stymied me was the gold cap. This effects a lot of the game play, there are many things that the gold cap kept the free player from having/doing. It effected much more of the game play then just limiting you to 2 gold pieces. As in you can build your reputation up to where you can buy unique items, but the gold cap prevents it.

This is the only thing I would consider changing however I'm not sure the change needs to happen. I agree that players need to be able to carry more than 2 (or even 5) gold, since there are vendor items which cost more -- but isn't there a way to purchase this upgrade through the store? And, unlike the pricing model for many things, isn't this one priced pretty low (something like a few hundred tp)?

If 25 hours of "work" (aka playing a video game) to get a quest pack is unacceptable, I think that spending that same 25 hours finding a way to get $10 for a subscription would be a good alternative.

I was f2p for just over a year, and last month finally opened my dusty wallet to pay for just one month's subscription. After playing for so long, it was about time I gave a little back for how much enjoyment I got from this game.

In all that time I didn't think anything was too unfair. Given other f2p mmo styles, I personally think Lotro has hit it about right.

There were just a few things that were getting on the annoying side that made me think it was time to put some money into the game.
1. Travel. Not being able to purchase permanent swift travel with TPs alone was very limiting, particularly once I got to the levels where I was frequently travelling from Misty Mountains to Angmar to Forochel.
2. Trading money. Whenever I saw someone offering some fabulous item for sale, I just had to drool and move on, and instead rely on the AH for anything I wanted. Even getting items from other kinship members, I felt a little guilty not being able to at least tip them if I didn't have mats to offer.
3. Trait slots. The 95 per slot does feel a bit expensive. I did buy a couple early on when they were on sale, but as I increased in level and increased the number of characters I played, it seemed to make more sense to just get the VIP->Premium unlocks.

But it took until I got a couple of characters into the late 40s before those limitations really hit me. Everything else I earned in game, and I didn't find it took too long. The currency cap removal was one of the first things I went for, and I got extra inventory bags during a sale.

Admittedly I'm OCD and have too much time on my hands, so ticking off those slayer deeds probably gives me more satisfaction than any normal person. With 13 alts, I find the TP just rolls in these days. Once I get the lowbies up a bit, it will no doubt drop off, but I have almost everything I need now.

Honestly I think f2p is fine the way it is. Instead of thinking about what you aren't getting, think about everything that you are. Think about how much work and resources go into this game, and how you don't have to give a single penny to gain access to it. Personally I think we get a pretty good deal here.

Originally Posted by KualaBangoDango

By limiting it to only the three starter areas, originally, they angered a LOT of returning subscribers who felt like they'd already bought those areas with the original SoA box. I read many posts by these players both in these forums and other game sites. Turbine lost way too many potential customers who felt they were either re-buying what they already bought (if they were old subscribers) or felt they were playing a too limited demo (for new players).

Turbine didn't lose any customers. What Turbine lost is free loaders that didn't want to spend any more dollars supporting the game. Buying the box didn't give anyone content. All it did was allow you to create an account and pay the game for 30 days.

If the Shadows of Angmar box cost 50 dollars. The real lump sum cost for that content is 350 dollars - Box cost + lifetime subscription. I managed to get my lifetime for 200 dollars. This concept is used by other companies like Direct TV and cellphone service providers. Have your iPhone stolen and you will find out that are no low cost solutions to this problem.

I often if a company like Blizzard could make more dollars by going F2P. Doing away with subscriptions. You have to buy all the game updates using something like the Down Loadable Content (DLC) model that is being used with single player games. The big issue is trying to sell the base game for 300+ dollars. You could release a small base game. Shadows of Angmar base - Breeland, Ered Luid, Lonelands and The Shire for 50 dollars. All the other regions are an additional charge.

I highly recommend finding a Mines of Moria retail box. Amazon still has some of these for $15-$20. You get one month's VIP which will give you alot of what people are asking for. Swift travel, all trait slots, 5 AH slots, 500 TP, unlimited gold, 2 more inventory bags, ability to get riding passive skill for free (with quest). Not to mention all the things that come with Moria. Moria, +2 Char slots (+1 more for upgrading), Warden/RK, soldier max level increase. Just a fantastic deal. Depending on how many characters you plan on playing, it could be easily worth 5000-10000TP.

Edit - make sure it's an unopened Turbine MOM box. Codemasters' versions are useless and you take your chances with the activation code if the box is used/open.


As far as FTP things, the one thing that always surprised me was that there wasn't a permanent swift travel unlock for sale in the store. I'd really hate to play without swift travel.

I'm going to have to pipe in here on that one. Yes there are people that are too cheap to pay anything to play a game, but then there are also a lot of us in financial situations where even try to squeeze out a extra 6 bucks is a job.

I'm one of those that has fallen through the cracks. Due to health issues I can't work at anything I have any experience doing, even the job service called me unemployable, but I am not about to even try for assistance, it's a waste of time; a friend of mine is a double amputy and has been trying to get SSI for 2 years {he hasn't gotten it because he wont hire a lawyer to get something, they keep telling him he is qualified for, yet keep denying him}.

What I love about this is sure enough some one will come on and say something like, skip eating at McDonalds, or skip those startbucks coffees. Like I can actually afford to eat out or buy coffee by the cup. With what I make I just; and not always, manage to cover living excess. L I wouldn't even be online if my mom wasn't paying for my ISP for mowing her yard.


What I am saying is please take in to account that not every one that is playing free has any other choice; besides just not playing. For me; in my present health, I have a lot of down time and hate the drivel that is on TV.

I don't think this topic is about how or where one can get $ for purchasing TP, but it's about what restrictions a F2P player has that could be less strict for the F2P player and not hurt Turbine.

but .. just for this moment I'll go off topic . . some areas pay for your blood or Plasma . . that is one option to getting the $'s for your TP purchases . . unless you have Bad blood

Back on topic
As I stated before, in my PoV, Gold cap, and not even one AH slot to use, is the most restrictive thing for F2P players. I agree with some of the other post, that Lotro F2P and earning TP is on Par as you level up, and find it has the best F2P out there, but I also don't play a lot of different games so this is only my PoV.

Turbine doesn't set the Prices that Items can sell for in the AH, that is the severs Gaming community (The Players), So the Gold cap decision was not based what items would sell for in the AH. As someone already mentioned, with the Gold cap where it is at, it seems pointless to even bother going to the AH.
My concern about the gold cap was housing.

Originally Posted by Flyulf

There were just a few things that were getting on the annoying side that made me think it was time to put some money into the game.

I dare say that's exactly the point, incentive that gives you enough time to enjoy the game free and decide if you like it enough to continue on, yet gives you something to look forward to and spend money on.

As a family who has both a Lifetime/Founder account and a Premium account that started out Free, I think the game has hit pretty close to the ultimate sweet spot for free players. There isn't anything having to do with game play that can't be bought with "free" TP, that is, TP that is completely earned in the game. I played through enough levels and enough characters on the free account to prove to myself that such was the case. In fact I started the account for that very reason, then turned it over to a family member. It's a lot more fun (for us) to purchase TP packages from time to time, but in my mind there's nothing about the Free accounts that is punitive, merely inconvenient.

The gold limit for free players will likely never change, my understanding is it's one of a few tougher restrictions that helps keep the gold farmers at bay.

Originally Posted by Flyulf

Personally I think we get a pretty good deal here.

Personally, I agree with you.

Originally Posted by manstan

I'm going to have to pipe in here on that one. Yes there are people that are too cheap to pay anything to play a game, but then there are also a lot of us in financial situations where even try to squeeze out a extra 6 bucks is a job.

I'm one of those that has fallen through the cracks. Due to health issues I can't work at anything I have any experience doing, even the job service called me unemployable, but I am not about to even try for assistance, it's a waste of time; a friend of mine is a double amputy and has been trying to get SSI for 2 years {he hasn't gotten it because he wont hire a lawyer to get something, they keep telling him he is qualified for, yet keep denying him}.

What I love about this is sure enough some one will come on and say something like, skip eating at McDonalds, or skip those startbucks coffees. Like I can actually afford to eat out or buy coffee by the cup. With what I make I just; and not always, manage to cover living excess. L I wouldn't even be online if my mom wasn't paying for my ISP for mowing her yard.


What I am saying is please take in to account that not every one that is playing free has any other choice; besides just not playing. For me; in my present health, I have a lot of down time and hate the drivel that is on TV.

I think that all of us understand that there are some people that may not be able to afford to spend money on the game. But the question you need to ask is, is it Turbines responsibility to provide you with unending free entertainment with no effort on your part. The majority of the player base do not feel that it is Turbines responsiblity to provide more for free then they already do. Others seem to feel that F2P is another term for charity but Turbine is still a business that has to pay thier employees from money they earn by selling either access or items in the game. No government is handing out billions of dollars to MMO companies to produce entertainment for unemployed or disabled people.

If you think Turbine should be providing all of the game to you for free I think a better way would to be to convince the Obama government they are a green industry, they love to through free money at "green" companies to run through. Telling hard working people that you are owed more because you cant work rarely gets positive responses.

Originally Posted by ThistleRose3

I think that all of us understand that there are some people that may not be able to afford to spend money on the game. But the question you need to ask is, is it Turbines responsibility to provide you with unending free entertainment with no effort on your part. The majority of the player base do not feel that it is Turbines responsiblity to provide more for free then they already do. Others seem to feel that F2P is another term for charity but Turbine is still a business that has to pay thier employees from money they earn by selling either access or items in the game. No government is handing out billions of dollars to MMO companies to produce entertainment for unemployed or disabled people.

If you think Turbine should be providing all of the game to you for free I think a better way would to be to convince the Obama government they are a green industry, they love to through free money at "green" companies to run through. Telling hard working people that you are owed more because you cant work rarely gets positive responses.

Wow, I can't believe Koch Industries and the Tea Party have invaded LOTRO.

Originally Posted by CookieArtisan

Wow, I can't believe Koch Industries and the Tea Party have invaded LOTRO.

Heh, those Dourhands always spring out of the woodwork when you least expect it, don´t they.