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May 10 2012 12:46 AM #1
Pledge in the Moors needs some fixing.
Can we get this looked at please?
Pledge is our main survival skill and it is being rendered useless when its most needed.
It seems as more and more updates go by, creeps get more and more ways to debuff or outright remove the ability to BPE.
Nothing like getting hit by a creep group/raid and using pledge, only to have nothing get BPE'd and dying in a heart beat.
Thanks.
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May 10 2012 01:03 AM #2
Re: Pledge in the Moors needs some fixing.
I guess if successful 'moors play for guards now depends on a boost to pledge...my election to steer clear of play going on nine months now, has been correct...for me, anyway.

Locomente - Champ, Beraxis - Guard, Sustain - warden
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May 10 2012 02:15 AM #3
Re: Pledge in the Moors needs some fixing.
Well PLedge works fine for me as long warg aint rooting me , coz i think they reomove bpe when they rooting some1 but still tis only 9 second root or 6 .
Guards bpe working fine in mooors they dont need to fix that but what they need do fix is our dps nothing else.
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May 10 2012 02:58 AM #4
Re: Pledge in the Moors needs some fixing.
A few of the Warg skills ignore BPE when in Shadow stance.
Just enjoy being a pretend Champion for a little while.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
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May 10 2012 03:00 AM #5
Re: Pledge in the Moors needs some fixing.
Pledge don't need any boost and is working just fine and I can also say that my Guardian is doing just fine in Ettenmoors, not overpowered and not underpowered and that makes it a well balanced class for the Ettemoors

Depends on what you mean by "successful moors play" tho? If that is doing the same DPS as a Minstrel in a freep zerg then Guardian would be very "unsuccessful" but if it's having good fights away from the freep zerg then Guardian would be "successful"...for me, anyway
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May 10 2012 06:26 AM #6
Re: Pledge in the Moors needs some fixing.
Sigh, I knew I shouldn't have started a topic, because guards are fine, we have nothing that needs attention, ever. Sigh.
So lets take bubbles from champs, last stand from captains, hips from burgs, bubble and flop from minis, etc etc for the others.
No more fear for defilers, take disappear from wargs, evade from BAs, or Weavers stay in combat to long with them pledge type ability they get that appears to be a self reapply BPE buff (15% or 25% to each of BPE, can't remember). And etc etc for the others.
I'm not talking about pledge being effective in a 1v1, I rarely use it there.
I'm talking about when I get jumped by a small group, or up to a full raid even, and I hit pledge with my shield and sword equipped and I'm dead in a matter of seconds, like I hadn't even used pledge at all.
BA pops evade and you can rarely hit them, guard pops pledge and the damage just keeps flowing.
I've been in the moors since 07, and pledge is nearly useless now, that is a fact.
I'm at 7 Aud, so that's not it, and I'm at 57-58% tac mits, which is the only important mit in the moors, as most common attacks don't hit hard, when I am in OP stance.
Guards are ok with the amount of incoming damage based on our mits, but having our BPE reduced to zero, even when pledge is running, is just not OK.
Pledge is a survival skill for those times when we are outnumbered and help is on the way and we need to just hold on for a little longer.
And when its the higher rank, or pay2win creeps, they can render BPE useless, yet I see no such ability from creeps or freeps to render other classes on either side with a debuff that makes there survival skill meaningless.
Can you imagine if a creep had an ability to negate last stand so that it didn't do what it says it does and the outcry about that?
That is what has happened to pledge, with all the updates over time.
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May 10 2012 07:10 AM #7
Re: Pledge in the Moors needs some fixing.
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May 10 2012 07:39 AM #8
Re: Pledge in the Moors needs some fixing.
What you're only saying is that you want to be jumped by a raid and be able to survive it.
Few things to keep in mind:
When you're getting hammered by a raid of creeps you are probably getting stuns and lots of other cc forms and you cannot bpe while cced.
If you're pledging and running away like a boss you're offering your back for the creeps to hit and you cannot block/parry hits from behind.
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May 10 2012 08:10 AM #9
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May 10 2012 08:23 AM #10
Re: Pledge in the Moors needs some fixing.
Creeps having ways of bypassing bpe is probably by design, pledge may be wai. You have almost %60 tactical mitigation, you didn't say what your bpe is and I am not sure how that stacks with %30 damage reduction from rank 7 audacity but that suggests that you take bugger all damage. Requiring a group of creeps to focus fire on you for a length of time in order to kill you seems imbalanced. Just as potions, diminishing returns and audacity has reduced the effectiveness of crowd control some creeps abilities bypass bpe to counter highly durable freeps.
Last edited by Idiotvillage; May 10 2012 at 08:28 AM.
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May 10 2012 09:48 AM #11
Re: Pledge in the Moors needs some fixing.
17secs, and if you have the 17secs; purely a question of whether 1 warg uses their sprint to chase and slow for the other creeps to catch up. If they do then there's no question that the creeps will catch up. There's also the issue that if the group of creeps includes a reaver you should be disarmed to bring the duration down to 7secs. This can be fought (pots and ignore the pain), but mostly it's delay in which the creeps can land damage and other wounds can be piled on top.
It's difficult to say whether I agree or disagree with the sentiment of the OP. It's the situation now that only reavers are you likely to get 100% bpe with pledge against now, considering finesse and the various means of bpe penetration (or damage source types) other creep classes have.
The argument cannot be whether this is an issue, it's clearly the intention of the moors development, and so to attempt arguing against the development is a bit foolish (it's arguably appropriate development anyway). It can however be questioned how this works for the balance of play of guard in the moors. Guard has always been about having the staying power in the fight through survivability, in order to deal enough damage to be worthwhile compared to all other melee with their burst. Since guard is in a bad place currently in dps terms (the stats changes hit us hard because the %age from OP to melee offense was diminished in value, champ fervour bonus was at least countered by the other aspects of how champ changed) and concurrently guard survivability dropped to closer to the same as other melee whilst in OP (not that most understand it, but most other melee can achieve near enough the same or greater mitigation levels compared to us these days), that left/leaves us in a bad place for a role.
What 'do' we have in our favour? Skills range legacy for the main one, as it allows us to function with a needed advantage against other melee and get in to deal our damage a little smoother than other melee. Other than that we bring a little utility that others have also; shield wall for covering others being focused; a little larger natural morale pool from the 5:1 for vit; and a hint of faster movement than others for mobile fighting (chasing or fighting on the retreat). It's my opinion these are enough to make us up to balanced.
On the subject of the flayer root, well I'm not sure I agree with people validating it as a counter to freep skills since there's no way to counter it itself. It's incredibly powerful, even if it's limited to melee range and the warg is disabled for the duration. It's a focus/zerg tool for a class that can and do use it soon after leaving stealth. A focus tool that amounts to being unmitigated cc without killing the warg (situational and never in defensive fighting situations) or surviving the duration without most of the survival tools freeps can have. That's stupidly powerful and anything like it has been nerfed into the ground in the past, so now they give them the root and a 10sec duration knockdown so they can provide unbreakable cc of reasonable duration in the fastest pace of moors there's even been? A bit cheap, and it does hit the roles of guard and burg worst (imo).Last edited by Grusk; May 10 2012 at 09:58 AM.

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May 10 2012 03:28 PM #12
Re: Pledge in the Moors needs some fixing.
yh true there is no doubts u speaking true ,but tbh the best way is brand and pledge and i am going to be honest here u can tank like this whole creep raid for 30 seconds.
but yh we aint in good palce like we use to be thats sureLast edited by Gillrain; May 10 2012 at 03:34 PM.

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May 10 2012 04:03 PM #13
Re: Pledge in the Moors needs some fixing.
Pots, stun and root, and aud gear, help limit any cc that would be applied when getting attacked.
And when I am getting hit by a large number of creeps, I don't turn my back and run, if I have teammates near.
I face them and hope the team gets to me.
Of course this isn't the case so much now, since pledge doesn't really give me a chance to survive anything, anymore.
So its run and die or just stand and die, no real option to survive
We used to be able to use pledge for what it does, +50% to BPE, and we could and should be able to stand in front of a raid and BPE everything, except tactical attacks, for 15 seconds.
Like we used to do.
But with debuffs, finesse and skill additions, or changes to creeps, pledge is nearly useless in the manner it should be used for, and what it is designed for, surviving for a few seconds longer when things go bad.
I've been playing guard in the moors for a long time and I am pretty sure I know how to live and die and when to run or when to push.
The comments from some of you implying I don't know "how to play in the moors" is ill thought. I've been there and done that out in the moors.
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May 10 2012 05:40 PM #14
Re: Pledge in the Moors needs some fixing.
If they do something with pledge, then the same would have to be done for burg's evade, BA's evade, etc. Finesse, debuffs, skills that bypass b/p/e don't just hurt guards. If you could pop pledge and tank a whole raid, the raid was foolish for not switching targets anyway.
Last edited by Moejo; May 10 2012 at 05:43 PM.
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May 10 2012 08:35 PM #15
Re: Pledge in the Moors needs some fixing.
sorry guys im with ash on this one. op guards just dont hit that hard shield traited guards are realy worthless bag of steel.. every fight a WL in shield lol they will out heal you to death defiler too.. shield is totaly worthless as youll get kited to death with no real ranged skills..pfft here on landy guards all all about gone in the moors..wardens have replaced them out there..OP guards are a bit better tho i go glass cannon myself.but hell run a champ. realy with we had a way to AGRRO creeps or realy block but im guessing thats left to newer mmos. ive been here 4 years and guards do seem off in the moors compared to others.
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Jun 29 2012 09:41 PM #16
Any dev response on this would be great. Even in PM.
Really is frustrating to use pledge and just watch the damage keep rolling over my head.
To the poster that says other classes would need their BPE buffs adjusted, well why not?
Shouldn't the skill do what the tool tip says it does?
And a BAs evade just works all the time, against all physical type attacks, since guards do not have ANY attacks that can bypass bpe checks.
I do not know if other freep classes have skills that can bypass bpe and can only miss, but the guard class doesn't.
We have no survival skills, CaB is nearly useless, since it needs a block response, and it only heals for 500-600, depending on legacy/traits, etc.
Don't say I should swap gear to the awful and useless dragon set to get a 3k heal, because if a class NEEDS certain gear to compensate for lackluster skills, then something is broken within the class.
Should be easy enough to allow pledge to override all BPE debuffs in the moors, allowing the skill to do what it is intended to do, allow us to survive for a short time, and giving us a chance.
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Jul 01 2012 09:37 AM #17
Yeah the difference being wargs can now hit a tank when he pops pledge with maul and claws if in shadow , also i rekon guards are prolly ok could do with a slight dps boost the problem being though if your gona compare them to a champ well this is when the problems start champs have huge survival and can wack out a huge amount of dps basically there too OP end off .

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Jul 01 2012 09:48 AM #18
Please remove all survival/escape skill of the Moors and let the inf/renown flow.
If die, just insert coin and go to the battle again.
Free credits.
Thanks.
Tindalas is Laurelin's negative nancy. (Felathurin aka Brunt)
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Jul 01 2012 10:06 AM #19
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Jul 02 2012 12:04 AM #20
I'm too tired at the moment to put much of any input into this largely pointless discussion, but I have to say one thing.
What is with the number of high-ranked Guardians posting in this forum that either don't know how to spell, or are too lazy to even try? geez people.
[OOC] Faja: 'new expansion isnt even out yet, i've already failed at it'
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Jul 02 2012 12:35 PM #21
This is a very interesting topic. I totally agree with Grusk. You pretty much covered me perfectly on this topic. It's true, our pledge is gone, I remember being able to take on entire warg (fail) packs and kill most or even all depending on number and how bad they were. I don't complain about pledge though, I'm a fan of the opinion that when a zerg focuses you, you should die instead of tanking the whole raid/pack/group w/e. It was hard to accept in the begining, when shadow stance was introduced, but now i'm used to it. For a while I wasn't lasting a single second against warg packs and stuff until I figured out how to convert WH into a reliable heal. I started by macroing the dragon set but given that my comp is really slow and many times it would <<bug>> and even tho the 3k heal would go off, not all of my audacity pieces would be reequiped. So I learned to do it manually, I moved my 6th skillbar in my left bottom corner of my screen and by using key mapping I learned how to manually switch to my dragon set instantly, pop WH and then back on my aud gear. After I started doing that, i no longer had survival issues. I mean, it still ain't the same, pledging and take on armies, but it's more challenging and I like it more. Therefore I don't really believe that our pledge should be fixed. It takes away some portion of the incoming damage, but I think (since overpower is meant to DPS by exposing yourself) it should be converted to a damaging skill. I would love to see pledge giving like: 25% damage, 25% crit and 25% crit multiplier for 15s (inspired by hunter's focus up skill), I know this may sound too much, but something like that brother, BPE is history in the moors, so give us something else.
Speaking of changes, I heard there will be some interresting changes to overpower in RoR. I heard a couple of things but here's what I have to suggest (if a dev gets the chance to read this) coming from my experience as a guard.
Basically 4 main things concern me about the guard: 1) Power, 2) Attack Duration, 3) Reliable interrupt, 4) Damage
1) Our power blows, that's a fact. We have no reliable power return skill unlike any other class. I understand that the whole concept of Overpower is to finish off opponents quickly, but hey, every class has a DPS stance, why would you give us one but at the same time tell us: Hey guards, guess what, you can DPS, but we give you only a limited amount of hits per time or else you run out of power. I mean, c'mon you give us a DPS stance? Then give us the ability to perserve our DPS. After a lot of thinking I think in overpower (inspired by Protection by the sword) you should convert catch a breath into a power returning skill (via parry responses or something else since parry responses are priceless but yet limited).
2,3) Attack duration. I don't really complain about our atk. duration. I understand that guard attacks in overpower are supposed to be big but slow at the same time. When a warg puts fleas on you, or a spider entagles you, it becomes a joke. I can get along just fine, but our attack duration blows so much when debuffed that it's funny. I mean right, To the rescue and the relics (if you chose to use them) are a good improvement, fosho. Still though skills like Brutal assault, force opening, To the king (even though the animations are uber cool) are really really slow. It would be nice if we had a reliable interrupt, like clobber, where we could use it both to interrupt a WL/BA/Defiler and reset our big skill animations too. I mean, right, We can get stamp down to 15 seconds, big freaken deal, wasting a trait slot and a precious legacy on our weapon for a 15second interrupt? No thanks.
4) Damage. Along with Power, that's my biggest concern in overpower. Guard DPS. My DPS is barely better than what it used to be back in mirkwood. Like suggested, it would be nice if we get a burst damage skill (convert pledge or whatever else).
Some other things It would be nice to have would be: Force opening should give a parry resposne NO MATTER WHAT. Things are more than ok now with the audacity gear bonus but without it, whenever FO misses/gets bped, the guard becomes TOTALLY useless. Just like you did with Turn the tables, I think you should do the same with force opening, make it Improved Force Opening.
Our legendary trait for brutal assault is really useless imo, I mean I trait it sure thing, but really? An entire legendary trait giving nothing more but a 50% chance to apply a bleed? (plus some bleed damage which is ok fosho). At least make it 100% and not allow us to stack more than 2 brutal assault bleeds on target or something, something more reliable, something less gimped. Also one more thing to mention on this part. It has happened to me many times, whenever I find a warg picking up a quest item or whatever and I approach him, I use brutal assault so if he hipses (and the bleed is applied) he will pop out of stealth and I will chase him down. Now many times, after approaching the warg, I get in melee range and use brutal so the warg sees me and hipses right away. My brutal assault lands through his hips, but after all the times this has occured, I have only noticed 1 time where a bleed was applied on the warg after brutal assault landing through hips. Basically I think Brutal is broken and when the warg hipses exactly after you use brutal the bleed is never applied.
I don't remember if there's anything else I wanted to say/suggest. I might sound like i'm complaining. In truth i'm not, i'm just trying to point out some improvements/changes for OP Guards. I totally have fun on my guard in the moors, mostly because it's not as easy as it used to be, but other than that it's a very solid class, even though a bit outdated if you allow me to say.
Here's a screenshot of how I switch to my dragon set:

PS: Thank you everybody, I hope I made sense, my english is not perfect
Have fun guardsLast edited by Therealmvp; Jul 02 2012 at 12:58 PM.

Courage and honor are the two greatest qualities of mind.
Aristotle
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Jul 02 2012 04:11 PM #22
I agree that in comparison with other classes survivability skills guardians got nerfed by the new skills that negate BPE. But I don't think the answer to that is to make Pledge OP (and come on, 30s of nigh invincibility seems a tad OP to me) again, but to also nerf other classes survivability.
Why would you think that outlasting an entire creep raid for 15s is a good thing? You should die.
I also don't like Last Stand, excessive bubbling (1 bubble should suffice), evade, burrow, disappear and HIPS. It's very frustrating to be denied a kill. Not saying these should all be removed, just made a bit less potent or on longer CDs. Even now, Pledge is not useless, it significantly lowers the damage you take in a lot of cases.
Allowing classes to circumvent BPE with some skills seems like a sensible thing to do. I do think physical freep classes could use a skill or two that cannot be BPEed as well.
P.S. You rarely die anyways, Ash, so quit complaining.
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Jul 03 2012 03:38 AM #23
Guardians will be fine, as long as our charge lasts 17 seconds. Yo cant even count how many figure 8 i can do in 17seconds ! The creeps get confused and just give up.
Its is a bit ironic though, that our most offensive sounding skill CHARGE!!!! is used the most to get us out of trouble. They should really named it RETREAT!!! Or at least go half way and call it: "CHARGE or RETREAT"!!!
But seriously, pledge isnt half as useful as it was pre roi. I suggest when in trouble switch to SnB for the extra +50% block, youd be amazed how many guardians forget to do that.
Also start using the most awesome useless skill in moors (if elf), saved my behind multiple times. Silvan shadows!
17s Charge + Silvan shadows after your rid of dots + direct port to bree = a bunch of baffled creeps.
What they really need to fix or remove completely is the guardians most feared nemesis, the damn defiler flies!!! It really hurts my ego not being able to kill a rank 2 defiler after slapping around some rank 9,10 creeps. Oh and if theres a raid vs raid going on, after 1min i have to sit back and watch others fight having 0 power, BORING!!!!
If the group of creeps that pounced on you have a BA and a warg, just stop and die, dont waste cds, BAs shoot through the pledge every time and shadow wargs, well you know.Last edited by zagreb000; Jul 03 2012 at 03:46 AM.

Only fools and dead men never change their mind
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Jul 03 2012 08:09 AM #24
I had to laugh but it's so true! I think it only requires some very easy non-game breaking fixes (mainly thinking of the OP power issues now) to improve game play experience in the moors somewhat. i'm not even talking about fixing pledge, or Guardian DPS, which in itself is ok but in comparison to actual DPS classes is mediocre at best.
All in all still enjoying playing the class in the Moors and I'm not holding my breath when it comes to Turbine 'fixing things' - it is quite clear that the Guardians' viable secondary role is not a development priority. Maybe in the near future, when they start selling DPS scrolls in the store

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Jul 03 2012 11:51 AM #25
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Jul 03 2012 01:37 PM #26
What id suggest is:
1. Fix pledge so it BPEs all types of damage (except dots of course)
2. Give us reliable power re-gen skills, borrow some from champions if you cant think of any
3. Increase critical magnitude by double! It would be nice if we could devastate around 3-4k
Only fools and dead men never change their mind
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