Thread: Is it bad etiquette to join in when someone is already fighting a quest objective?

Originally Posted by Frith_of_Dale

You can't have a decent discussion about THAT paper without having read it, but you can most certainly discuss MMO's without reading that particular study from Stanford, which may or may not actually draw an even relevant point.

To cite a paper, and insist it's a prerequisite to having a conversation is a bit much, and just because it's a study from a PHD doesn't mean their conclusions have any relevance at all.

That's basically an argument from authority, kind of like a signature declaring yourself to be a programmer.

A point can stand on it's own merit, whether or not it came from Einstein himself.

That said, it's a neat paper, although I find their conclusions to be pretty speculative.

I'll be daring and sum up the paper in one quote mined sentence: "For most, playing the game is therefore like being “alone together” –surrounded by others, but not necessarily actively interacting with them"

mmmkay

"For most"

Hasn't been that way for me, so I guess I'm in the minority, or their conclusion is based on false assumptions and too little data from World of Warcraft, which is what they're talking about by the way.

That paper has the advantage over pretty much every opinion expressed in the Forums on the subject by actually having gathered data and studyied what players *do* in a game. Sure, they studied WoW, but that doesn't invalidate the results. If anything, it should spark further research to see if the what was observed there holds true elsewhere.

Anyone can disagree with the conclusions the authors drew from the data they gathered, but just saying "I haven't read it, but I disagree with what they say" is just being pig-ignorant. At least demonstrate that you have enough data to dispute the conclusions...not just a "gut feel" that it has to be wrong.

There are a number of topics in MMOs in which people make extravagant claims about how players behave, but it's done on the basis of what their immediate circle of friends claim they do, not on any form of accumulated data that can be shown to have some statistical significance.

What your own late point does is simply to claim to be an outlier. So what exactly IS your point? What is your basis for asserting that the conclusions are in error? Do you just not like the conclusion or do you have some factual basis for claiming the authors are wrong? They may be wrong...but claims that they are should have something more than hot air behind the claim.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by whheydt

You really don't think it makes a better discussion if both sides are at least *informed*? You may disagree with the paper's conclusions, but you can hardly have a decent discussion on the subject if you haven't at least read it.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

That would be like me talking to someone with little or no background in mathematics, linking him to a journal or paper and telling him to come back after he is a bit more informed.

I definitely won't do that unless the other said person is too a maths academic. Having said that, I don't believe I need to have an academic background in something in order to be allowed to discuss it. Just as I won't stop others from talking about mathematics and IF they are wrong, I certainly won't just link them to a paper, I would explain myself because that is what I ought to do.

You refer to me ignorant in another reply and I find this extremely rude. I'm not going to read through a research paper just as I won't expect you to read a paper on MHD theory if the said discussion was on the Sun.

Now assume I am ignorant and don't want to read the paper. Why can't you present a summary of the paper itself? Why must the burden be on me rather than you to present your thoughts and ideas? I post my thoughts knowing full well people will disagree but in your case, at least some respect by telling why you disagree yourself rather than simply linking to a paper. If it is not even worth that much of your time then I have no more words for you.

I rarely help out a stranger in battle, unless it looks like someone is about to be cut down for good. If monsters are tagged, I'll wait and then cheer when the other person triumphs with their heroic ways over their foes.

Conversely, I don't particularly mind being helped - it is kind of frustrating when the Big Evil is almost dead and a super-powerful (X) appears and destroys it with ease; but then I like to imagine that Gandalf would have done the same thing had he passed a young burglar with a good heart battling on her own in a struggle against the Enemy's forces...

I had a first on my hunter, last night: someone appeared, spotted me, ran over to me and began deliberately positioning themselves to use my traps! Why the very cheek of it! (It actually made me laugh, but I could see that someone else might have been annoyed by it...).

Originally Posted by Toranoga

My attitude about playing an MMO is the same as going to the park to play basketball with friends. If I meet new people to play with great, but the reason I'm their is to play ball with the friends I have. I don't require, nor expect everyone else in the park to join in our game. Indeed a game of 2 on 2 half court would get awkward with fifth wheel strangers jumping in whenever they pass by. Just because I'm in the same park doesn't mean I want to play with you. The same goes for movies, restaurants, and thyme parks. I'm not sure an eatery would stay open very long if everyone had to sit at the same table.

I don't understand why people think an MMO would be any different than any other place that people gather socially.

Exactly! I do not understand why for some people, MMO means everyone else must play by their rules.

Originally Posted by whheydt

You really don't think it makes a better discussion if both sides are at least *informed*? You may disagree with the paper's conclusions, but you can hardly have a decent discussion on the subject if you haven't at least read it.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Posting a link to a 10 page paper on a forum where most post are less then 2 paragraphs and then saying you cant discuss the issue because they didnt read the link seems very uncalled for. The discussion is about how players in this game feel a situation should be handled. If you want to have a discussion on the paper it seems that you should start a new thread rather then hijacking this one to fit your narative.

Originally Posted by Frith_of_Dale

You can't have a decent discussion about THAT paper without having read it, but you can most certainly discuss MMO's without reading that particular study from Stanford, which may or may not actually draw an even relevant point.

To cite a paper, and insist it's a prerequisite to having a conversation is a bit much, and just because it's a study from a PHD doesn't mean their conclusions have any relevance at all.

That's basically an argument from authority, kind of like a signature declaring yourself to be a programmer.

A point can stand on it's own merit, whether or not it came from Einstein himself.

That said, it's a neat paper, although I find their conclusions to be pretty speculative.

I'll be daring and sum up the paper in one quote mined sentence: "For most, playing the game is therefore like being “alone together” –surrounded by others, but not necessarily actively interacting with them"

mmmkay

"For most"

Hasn't been that way for me, so I guess I'm in the minority, or their conclusion is based on false assumptions and too little data from World of Warcraft, which is what they're talking about by the way.



I

OFT
not sure how to quote a single sentance. The bit you summed up, anybody who studied Social Science for 6 months could tell you that summery. Humans are social animals who like the own privacy.

I remember way back reading an artical by one of the GW producers, which summed up to saying, their is not really one sort of player as sometimg people like to group and sometimes they like to solo, sometimes people like to pvp and sometines they just want to sit in towns and chat all a game does is provide you with the options, its your game so play it how you want.

Originally Posted by GregJL

I won't speak for others, but I find it rude, since not only does it cut my XP gain from the kill, but also satisfaction at defeating an enemy on my own (not that most of them are all that difficult)

These are my reasons for preferring people butt-out of my battles unless invited.

Originally Posted by danno8

Yah Turbine should really consider dropping this little mechanic. Would it really be so bad if everyone who tagged a mob or helped someone with a buff/heal all got full experience for it, even if they are not in a group. It's like the game discourages grouping in this way.

This is clearly done to discourage power-leveling, which Turbine has intimate knowledge of considering what went on in AC.


If we're just talking about some random orc, no way am I going to interfere. In their position I'd rather die and run back than have to be saved by some galavanting "hero." If it's a named mob quest guy or something, I'll wait my turn to kill it myself. If they get close to death, I'll throw them the heal or help out. If they haven't started attacking it yet, I always send them a tell and ask if we can group to take it out together. I totally understand the pride of accomplishment, but I'm polite enough that I also know I'm going to be the one standing around waiting for five minutes.

I generally have limited time frames in which to play, and I get pissed at guards in skirms when they "help" me by jacking half my xp. And during anniversay/xp weekends where I'm getting like 1/4 of a quests xp from one mob? You damn well better not step in and start "helping" me. Every class I've played has had a variety of "oh shh" buttons that I don't remember to use and would have "saved" me, and on the off chance I do remember I can use them it's going to be at the same time some dude thinks I'm a goner.

Originally Posted by Teslana

I had a first on my hunter, last night: someone appeared, spotted me, ran over to me and began deliberately positioning themselves to use my traps! Why the very cheek of it! (It actually made me laugh, but I could see that someone else might have been annoyed by it...).

<mostly off-topic>

I wonder whether this is another thing that causes XP to be cut in half?

</mostly off-topic>

I HATE it when people 'help' me without my requesting it. There's few occasions in this game where a fight is an actual challenge, and when it is I want to deal with it on my own, not have it rendered into another cakewalk.

However, if something IS a quest objective and I'm about to attack it and I notice someone else looking to do the same, I ask if they want to group simply to be polite because otherwise they have to wait for a respawn.

Originally Posted by Armaius

I'll wait and see if they're going to die or not before I involve myself. If they're going to die, then I'll help out.

I really never understood that whole "oh it cuts kill xp in half argument". The xp gain from kills is such a small amount to begin with, not really worth getting upset about imho.

this. in fact, I'd laugh in the face of anyone that seriously tried to whine about a loss of a few XP points. in most cases, I'd PAY to have my XP gain cut in half. BUT, many people, myself included, like to have the satisfaction of soloing a tough objective (not that there are many, if any, of these left on landscape, sadly), and for that reason, I will always stop to observe how the fight is going and judge if it looks like the person really needs help before jumping in. it would be rude in most cases to just sit there and let them die. /say or /tell if its not an emergency, but if it is, they'll likely not be able to respond anyway.

on the other hand, especially in new content, the person trying to solo a mob can be rude if they're tying up the one mob that will create a bottleneck for many other players trying to get through. if its a matter of an extra minute or so waiting, that's not a big deal and people shouldn't be so impatient, but if its significantly longer, the soloer should try to find a time when they're not going to greatly inconvenience others (inevitably even if you wait until you think its clear, someone will come along right after, but if you've made a good faith effort, that's all you can do).

Originally Posted by Teslana

I had a first on my hunter, last night: someone appeared, spotted me, ran over to me and began deliberately positioning themselves to use my traps! Why the very cheek of it! (It actually made me laugh, but I could see that someone else might have been annoyed by it...).

I wouldn't just be annoyed by that, I'd report it. That is clearly harassment.

Originally Posted by Littlebit

Exactly! I do not understand why for some people, MMO means everyone else must play by their rules.

So which group of "some people" are you referring to here?

There are plenty of public spaces that people are expected to share, e.g. food court and buses. If you expect to occupy a full table during lunch hour even when you're eating alone, or occupy a full two-seater even though there are other passengers standing in the aisle, you need to adjust your expectations.

The same is true for many popular and crowded areas in this game.

"I got there first so I have the right to take as much and as long as I like" doesn't always cut it.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

"I got there first so I have the right to take as much and as long as I like" doesn't always cut it.

I bet you also pull people off the toilets in public rest rooms with the excuse of them taking too long.

<mostly off-topic>

Originally Posted by Annariel

I wonder whether this is another thing that causes XP to be cut in half?

I did not notice - will pay attention and report back, if it ever happens again.

</mostly off-topic>

Originally Posted by VorpalK

I wouldn't just be annoyed by that, I'd report it. That is clearly harassment.

I'm not really sure. They were really struggling to hurt anything and seemed to be getting annoyed by that, I think, so it may have been sheer frustration/temporary battle insanity. Their sheer nerve amused me enough to let it pass without comment. Or they may do it all the time to any hunter they meet, which certainly would become annoying if it catches on as a "thing". Don't do it, little ones, or you'll soon discover all those quick paths between towns will vanish! heh

So, the moral of this story probably is: if you want help, just ask for help

Originally Posted by Tamiya

"I got there first so I have the right to take as much and as long as I like" doesn't always cut it.

It never cuts it, imo. Mobs someone else is actively engaging, they're theirs. Anything they aren't, is fair game. As far as hogging one mob for an extended period of time, either the mob or the player is going to die before too long has passed.

Originally Posted by Moejo

It never cuts it, imo. Mobs someone else is actively engaging, they're theirs. Anything they aren't, is fair game. As far as hogging one mob for an extended period of time, either the mob or the player is going to die before too long has passed.

Yes, it IS theirs. That's why the tagging mechanism is in place. So if someone else comes along and helps kill it, the person who tagged it still gets credit for the kill, the loot, and any quest completion involved with the mob.

Now, if Turbine had wanted to design the game so that tagging a mob also included an exclusive ability to damage it, then we would see that in the combat mechanics. But we don't, so they didn't.

Originally Posted by Toranoga

I bet you also pull people off the toilets in public rest rooms with the excuse of them taking too long.

I would call security, because it certainly is possible to be "taking too long". Or do you actually think it's normal and acceptable behaviour for someone to remain in the same stall for as long as he likes just because he got in there first?

There is a limit to how much personal space anyone can claim in crowded public areas, and that applies in game too.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

I would call security, because it certainly is possible to be "taking too long". Or do you actually think it's normal and acceptable behaviour for someone to remain in the same stall for as long as he likes just because he got in there first?

There is a limit to how much personal space anyone can claim in crowded public areas, and that applies in game too.

Then call security (GM) when someone takes too long killing a mob.

I honestly think this is an incredibly minor issue, and anyone who would use the slap or angry emote just because someone provided unwanted help or was taking too long soloing a boss is taking the game way too seriously and will probably get a scold emote followed by an ignore if the behavior is repeated. And anyone who spams either of those two emotes can get reported for a Terms of Service violation. Ditto for anyone who would curse at someone for either providing unwanted help or taking too long.

Yeah, one time recently a few people interrupted when I was testing to see if I was strong enough to solo something. Yeah, it was a bit frustrating. Guess what I said to the people? Absolutely nothing. It wasn't as if they knew I was testing my strength and meant any harm. So I just rolled with it and tried my test again later. Because it really wasn't that big a deal.

If you want to communicate that they are disrupting you, at least do it politely, without any slap emotes or curses, etc. For example, "Hey, I really wanted to see if I could do this myself; would you mind standing back next time?" or " "This boss takes an hour to respawn -- would you mind resetting him so we could kill him together for shared credit?"

If all else fails, there's always tomorrow.

Is it good to help? Maybe, maybe not... just go with your gut instinct, because battles go too fast to do anything else, and don't feel guilty if you make the wrong call, because if someone gets *that* upset over such a minor issue, that's their problem, not yours.

"•Rule #1 of the Code of Conduct specifically states: “While participating in the Game or on the Game Website you must respect the rights of others to play and enjoy the Game world as intended by Turbine.”

I found this on the thread to Ignore or report and it was written by a Senior Gamemaster, but I think it fits right into this thread. There you have it, dont annoy people, help when they need help and let them die when they show no sign of wanting help. If they complain at you after that: leave them and /ignore
/end thread.