This may have been addressed in the past, if so I missed it.
I like to think that the professor would enjoy playing the game, even though there are a few inconsistencies with the cannon.
Does anyone know if any of his ancestors or other relatives have given the game a try?
And if so, have they made any comments?
Like I told you... What I said...Steal your face right off your head.
This may have been addressed in the past, if so I missed it.
I like to think that the professor would enjoy playing the game, even though there are a few inconsistencies with the cannon.
I don't think so. He had reservations about translating a novel into a visual format; he was thinking about movies but much the same problem applies, rather than the reader imagining the scene for themselves it's someone else's imagination being imposed. And in this case, Turbine's version is... how shall I put it... somewhat idiosyncratic to begin with. Partly because it's a game, partly because it reflects their house art style. LOTR benefits from more realism, I think - pretending it was once real seems to pay dividends (that was the general design brief for the stuff Weta made for the movies). Here, there are some overly familiar fantasy tropes to be seen. And then there the many MMO oddities that we take for granted, but which are really quite bizarre. (The overemphasis on fighting, for example).
I'd like to think he'd have found the concept of an RPG intriguing, but a game like this is only an RPG in the most limited sense (primarily mechanistic).
I don't think so. He had reservations about translating a novel into a visual format; he was thinking about movies but much the same problem applies, rather than the reader imagining the scene for themselves it's someone else's imagination being imposed. And in this case, Turbine's version is... how shall I put it... somewhat idiosyncratic to begin with. Partly because it's a game, partly because it reflects their house art style. LOTR benefits from more realism, I think - pretending it was once real seems to pay dividends (that was the general design brief for the stuff Weta made for the movies). Here, there are some overly familiar fantasy tropes to be seen. And then there the many MMO oddities that we take for granted, but which are really quite bizarre. (The overemphasis on fighting, for example).
I'd like to think he'd have found the concept of an RPG intriguing, but a game like this is only an RPG in the most limited sense (primarily mechanistic).
(And it's 'canon', btw )
Thanks for the correction...my language skills today make me want to stand in front of a cannon.
The forum problems have been driving me crazy lately. This is the first time I have seen a double-post in a long while.
About the professor's taste in games: pull him out of the 1970's and drop him here in this century and I think he would be amazed at what has been done with his text.
I think he would be proud and happy to see what Turbine and also Jackson have created and gleeful about playing a hobbit burglar.
Sometimes I think some of us treat his works too much like some kind of sacred, untouchable tomes of scripture.
I hate the cartoons and I think he would have refused to approve that stuff if he had a chance to preview a bit of them, but I think he would have accepted what has been done in general in popular culture with his text and art.
Like I told you... What I said...Steal your face right off your head.
I'm not sure if Tolkien would have enjoyed LOTRO. I'm sure he would have appreciated the effort and scale put into the game, but Tolkien had some "odd" ideas concerning modern technology, corporations, etc. that certainly would have tainted his experience.
I recently viewed the commentaries related to Tolkien that were on the DVDs included in my movie collection. At least a few of the interviewees were people who actually knew Tolkien or had spent time researching his work. Even so, I am still not sure I can guess how Tolkien himself would have regarded LOTRO.
From what I gathered, and as Himodhur said, Tolkien might have been what some would today call a Technophobe. He seemed to regard technology or from his timeframe, industry as something to be feared. Or perhaps more precisely, something that could very easy get away from us and take on almost a life of it's own. Would he have regarded something like LOTRO in the same way? It's hard for me to decide.
On the other hand...
I did also hear several times that Tolkien did not wish his writings to be the final story. He wanted his work to be the beginning of new myths and legends. Tolkien wanted others to continue his story and expound upon it. If this is true, I feel LOTRO, the movies and films, all the fan fiction, and the many websites based on Tolkien's work is very much in keeping with Tolkien's wishes.
So glad I could muddy the waters even more! By the way, these are just my thoughts and reflections on what I've gathered in my foray into Tolkien's world. I make no claims to be an expert. Just my two cents!
The Crimson Burglar Squad - First you see Red...Then you are dead.
Tolkien playing LotRO would probably be something like:
1. Someone tries to explain what it is to him.
2. He doesn't understand and gets his greatgrandson to use the computer for him.
3. After much confusion, in which the greatgrandson has downloaded and installed LotRO, Tolkien finally gets to pick a character.
4. Lots of confusion over what is clicking where and where to type in a name.
5. Tolkien proceeds to recite a speech involving his views on a name to pick, how it's to do with creation and sub-creation, with the machine and Tolkien's greatgrandson has taken over while Tolkien was rambling and is now playing LotRO.
6. Tolkien is still unaware what LotRO is and goes into his study to read a book or write some more stories.
Sometimes I think some of us treat his works too much like some kind of sacred, untouchable tomes of scripture.
[...] but I think he would have accepted what has been done in general in popular culture with his text and art.
/signed on the first part.
/unsigned on the second. Tolkien actually was not completely happy with the attention his work attracted, not only on a personal level since fans kept calling him with no regard to time difference before he got a secret telephone number, and showed up at his house unannounced, but also because a lot of the receptions and re-interpretations of his work were completely at odds with the motivation that went into creating them. Tolkien's idea was to create a world where his languages could have a home, so it was essentially linguistic in nature. There is a quote by Christopher Tolkien (I think) that mentions how his father was horrified that people who couldn't tell the difference between Old Norse and Old English (or didn't care what that mattered) were reading his stories. LotRO is a million miles from that.
...weary head-shaking at all this modern tomfoolery, probably.
Plus he'd be 120 years old, so he'd probably look like Gollum
Indeed. I think the first thing he might think is "What on earth did you do to my Elves?" Seeing as they are a mere shadow of what he wrote them to be. In fact, the development has done a great job of trivializing and making them irrelevant to the game both as NPC's and player characters. Bravo.
Chances are that he'd enjoy watching someone play the game but not playing it himself. He might marvel at the fact that his stories are interactive and truly the scenery and music would likely captivate him as would the inclusion of so many areas that he wrote about. He would likely enjoy most areas reserving his favorites as the Shire, Rivendell and Caras Galdhon ... if it weren't for those half-elves. He may even enjoy Moria ... and possibly wonder why the hobbits live more in buildings instead of holes. He might be amused to see just how common legendary weapons are.
I still submit that he would not forgive Turbine for they have done to his Elves and also Hunters. He might wonder why there are so many Dwarf and Hobbit adventurers in the world when Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin were the exception to the rule. How enlightened all of these races are, so easily working with one another. Or perhaps he'd wring his hands and punch a hole through the computer screen. I guess we'll never know ... but these are a few thoughts that come to mind for me.
Looks like the signatures are broken ... All of my craft skills are maxed.
From what I gathered, and as Himodhur said, Tolkien might have been what some would today call a Technophobe. He seemed to regard technology or from his timeframe, industry as something to be feared. Or perhaps more precisely, something that could very easy get away from us and take on almost a life of it's own.
Indeed! I believe what Saruman turned Isengard into is basically a vision of Tolkien's fears come to life. This could also be seen in the Scouring of the Shire, as the hobbits' homeland was almost lost. Luckily they were able to take their lands back and kick the brigands out finally.
The Crimson Burglar Squad - First you see Red...Then you are dead.
Well, I bet Tolkien family in general would have differing opinions about Lotro. And if one of them plays the game - who knows!
I mean, they weren't fully happy about film adaptations, but then again Royd Tolkien really enjoyed the movies. Lol, he even did a cameo in one of them. You can spot him in Osgiliath in one point as one of Faramir's rangers. Pretty handsome guy if you ask me.
'There now the numbers of Eldar increase,' Voronwë said, 'for ever more flee thither of either kin from the fear of Morgoth, weary of war.'
While I have to agree that he would probably have many issues with LOTRO, I think he would like some parts such as the scenery. Honestly, if he pulled a Bilbo/gollum and lived this long Turbine may have invited him to either help with some stuff or to come talk with their story team. Whether or not he would have agreed to do so is another matter, but it would have been cool.
Freeps:Taredhelion(63,Guard) ; Turmanarmo(32,RK) ; Rawlings(22,Burg) ; Drengi(29,Champ) ; More that will be leveled later
Creeps: None of note ... yet.
Here is a youtube link to a video of Christopher Tolkien speaking of his father's deeply held beliefs on the evil inherent in technology, with quotes directly from Tolkien's journals.
The very idea that people would spend hours using virtual woodworking tools to engage in a virtual craft in a virtual world and never once create an actual harp, bow or bookshelf I believe would have filled him with horror.
There has been previous threads that portrayed Christopher as being petty, snobbish or bitter because of his repudiation of the movies and the whole modern Tolkien pop culture. He's just being real about who his father was.
Who knows? Not anyone here I assume. And I find it laughable that anyone would claim to "know" absolutely what the man would think - we can only speculate. So in that vein I think in one respect he might at least appreciate the act of sub-creating his sub creation - the ultimate act of reverence. However - even though Eru absolved Aule for his "act of reverence", Morgoths desire to "sub create" delivered him to the darkness - maybe JRRT would see it more as a perversion than a act of imitation?
I find it interesting the the Tolkien Professor - who has done some interviews with members of the Lonely Mountain Band - (an actual band that writes songs about Middle-earth - and does "concerts" with a virtual band in LOTRO) Knows about LOTRO - is interested in seeing the game - but admits that he has too busy a life and schedule and has to purposely stay away from LOTRO - even to take a peek - because he doesn't want to risks the possible addition of another thing Tolkien taking up his time and life...
Who knows? Not anyone here I assume. And I find it laughable that anyone would claim to "know" absolutely what the man would think - we can only speculate. So in that vein I think in one respect he might at least appreciate the act of sub-creating his sub creation - the ultimate act of reverence.
'Reverence'? This game is commercial exploitation, pure and simple. The only thing about it I can imagine he might find intriguing is the idea of a 3D environment, of bringing an imagined landscape to life as in a way that's equivalent to drawing a wonderful, 'magical' map. As for all the rest, we know he was not keen on the idea of adapting books into a visual medium. He was thinking of movies, obviously, but the same issue applies to the game: that making something visual takes away the reader's freedom to actively imagine a scene for themselves, substituting instead the passive viewing of someone else's imagination of it.
I think that a 'sandbox' style of game that allowed players to sub-create extensively in a world that could be of their own making would have fitted far better with what you're trying to say there. I can very easily imagine him finding the concept of role-playing games to be intriguing as they involve collaborative imagination and story-telling, but that's hardly what this game is about. This game, as with MMOs in general is highly constrained and constraining, and almost exclusively involves the school of gameplay that's mocked as 'ProgressQuest' - kill monster, get treasure, get xp, on and on cyclically for many thousands of repetitions with the player's character becoming incrementally more effective at killing monsters. Nothing reveals the paucity of interactivity that involves more than the fact that you can very easily script a bot to play such a game on your behalf. Such a game distorts every setting to which it is applied in order to provide a broad enough variety of monsters to be killed and have their stuff taken and to provide endless opportunities for killing said monsters. When combined with the notion that the player-character is 'the' hero and other such common tropes, this wreaks dire violence on plot and characterization alike. I have immense difficulty with the idea that an author would relish seeing their work being taken and processed in that manner, as if by some immense and uncaring machine, into what one might call extruded game product. Homogenized, and full of artificial additives.
Last edited by Radhruin_EU; Sep 08 2012 at 06:22 AM.
Who knows? Not anyone here I assume. And I find it laughable that anyone would claim to "know" absolutely what the man would think - we can only speculate. So in that vein I think in one respect he might at least appreciate the act of sub-creating his sub creation - the ultimate act of reverence. However - even though Eru absolved Aule for his "act of reverence", Morgoths desire to "sub create" delivered him to the darkness - maybe JRRT would see it more as a perversion than a act of imitation?
I find it interesting the the Tolkien Professor - who has done some interviews with members of the Lonely Mountain Band - (an actual band that writes songs about Middle-earth - and does "concerts" with a virtual band in LOTRO) Knows about LOTRO - is interested in seeing the game - but admits that he has too busy a life and schedule and has to purposely stay away from LOTRO - even to take a peek - because he doesn't want to risks the possible addition of another thing Tolkien taking up his time and life...
Well we do have the opinion of his son available, who presumably knew him reasonably well. From his perspective, I'd have to go with the 'he wouldn't like the changes' viewpoint.
Although it is hard to tell how much of that is his real opinion and how much of that is his son trying to preserve his father through his father's works.
I think there might have been less risk if the game had been set after Sauron's fall... dealing with the cleanup, sorting out the new politics, etc. The scouring of the shire would have been a valid explanation for hobbits getting out and seeing the world in larger numbers. There would still be a large army in Mordor, likely would still be other Balrog and other remnants from past wars hiding in the depths, would still be Moria to retake (even without Durin's Bane being there, there was still the supporting army, and something else big could have moved in to take them over before the Dwarves could). Gondor and Rohan would have lost a lot of troops in the final battle, so there would be plenty of openings for 'new recruits....'
I think there might have been less risk if the game had been set after Sauron's fall... dealing with the cleanup, sorting out the new politics, etc.
Politics? Everyone was so overjoyed it was all over that they were happy with how everything turned out, glad to welcome Aragorn as the new King and so on. Now of course that wouldn't last forever, but neither would there be much call for heroes right then and there.
The scouring of the shire would have been a valid explanation for hobbits getting out and seeing the world in larger numbers.
Can't see why you'd think that, they'd have their work cut out at home fixing up the Shire.
There would still be a large army in Mordor, likely would still be other Balrog and other remnants from past wars hiding in the depths
No, there was no 'army' left in Mordor. Nothing organised, just the few half-mad Orcs who were left hiding in the deepest, darkest holes they could find. And no, there's no likelihood whatsoever of a Balrog being found in Mordor. Really, the place was done with, over, finished once Sauron fell.
...would still be Moria to retake (even without Durin's Bane being there, there was still the supporting army, and something else big could have moved in to take them over before the Dwarves could).
Like what? And please don't say a fire-drake.
Gondor and Rohan would have lost a lot of troops in the final battle, so there would be plenty of openings for 'new recruits....'
Nope. It was some time before Aragorn and Eomer had to ride to war together again. The year after the War was peaceful, idyllic, wonderful in every way (a little 'thank you' from the Valar, one imagines) and for a while at least, all was right with the world. Umbar had surrendered to Gondor after it lost its fleet and as for the rest, they certainly wouldn't be about to cause any trouble for the Free Peoples.
I think that Tolkien would rather go back into his grave than play LOTRO. The main idea of this game is to kill things, and he never wanted his stories to be about violence. He didn't enjoy the idea of technology, and I believe because people have a skill of adding something bad to them. The computer started as a tool to help humans but now look at all the viruses , all the hackers, the creeps on the Internet, the inappropriate images and videos. Sure there are alot of good things about it but this invention has been tainted. Im not saying LOTRO is a bad game its just that he would not enjoy it because his ideas of the world he created are different from ours. Us, the fans, need something to hang on to, because we don't want the story to end, we want it to go on forever but thats not possible. So we want to play a game that is Middle Earth related so we can still be in the story, we can still learn something new after the day is over. Tolkien doesn't need that, he created the story so for him, it never ends.
Also, I terribly disagree with Torweld's idea of the game being after the fall of Sauron. I think that after a war that lasted thousands of years, people would prefer not to fight for a while. They don't even have enough men to go into a battle. So a hero would be useless and not needed at all. Also, Im afraid Turbine would make a horrible story out of it, having almost no reference about the time after the War.
I may be wrong, because not everybody who plays LOTRO is a Tolkien fan and not everybody agrees with my thinking.
Politics? Everyone was so overjoyed it was all over that they were happy with how everything turned out, glad to welcome Aragorn as the new King and so on. Now of course that wouldn't last forever, but neither would there be much call for heroes right then and there.
Well there is still an orc army in Mordor, as well as many other 'old world' threats hidden in the depths of the earth and wild places.
Above and beyond that, though, it is easy to say everyone was overjoyed to have Aragorn as king, but he has no actual experience in that role. There are alliances with the Elves and with the Rohirrim, but what do those really mean in practice? There is still a lot of sorting out to be done.
Can't see why you'd think that, they'd have their work cut out at home fixing up the Shire.
That wouldn't take forever. Meanwhile they have been forcably reminded that there is actually an 'outside world.' Most would stay home, yes, but regardless of how it may seem, PC adventurers are actually the exceptions. Hobbiton and the Shire are not deserted. Bree is not deserted. Rivendell is not deserted, nor are Gondor, nor Rohan. The bulk of the populations stay at home.
Why do you see these things as absolutes?
No, there was no 'army' left in Mordor. Nothing organised, just the few half-mad Orcs who were left hiding in the deepest, darkest holes they could find. And no, there's no likelihood whatsoever of a Balrog being found in Mordor. Really, the place was done with, over, finished once Sauron fell.
Really... Sauron's entire army was not just at the gates, but was able to fit on that one field? Seriously? Evidence, please? Winning at the gates is not the same as being prepared for a major incursion into Mordor. They were expecting to be fighting a delaying action, not an invasion. There doesn't have to be a Balrog there immediately and we do know that orcs are capable of operating independently of direct control.
Like what? And please don't say a fire-drake.
Who knows? Its fantasy literature. Seriously, use some imagination. All it has to be is plausible.
Nope. It was some time before Aragorn and Eomer had to ride to war together again. The year after the War was peaceful, idyllic, wonderful in every way (a little 'thank you' from the Valar, one imagines) and for a while at least, all was right with the world. Umbar had surrendered to Gondor after it lost its fleet and as for the rest, they certainly wouldn't be about to cause any trouble for the Free Peoples.
Not in the next year or so, but please tell me that you don't believe in literally 'happily ever after.' Sauron is dead, so the races now become perfect, all greed and desire vanishes from the world, the land becomes super fertile and there is no cause for strife at all ever again.... ?
Men are still men, and even the 'higher' races such as Elves exhibit greed and jealousy and other negative emotions.
We know that the various reigns in the coming decades are relatively peaceful, but there is room to play with that 'relatively.'
There is a fundamentally different situation when a creator controls the destiny of her or his characters and world and when a corporation does.
In many modern observations of these opposing situations the differences may not seem that obvious but in the case of the person who is probably the most meticulous, loving and thoughtful creator of imaginary worlds ever, J.R.R. Tolkien the differences between the authors hand and a corporations are overwhelming.
I believe the greatest respect a creator can show their characters is in bestowing upon them a meaningful existence. By that I mean they have the possibility of living the breadth of human life: loss, gain, love marriage, parenthood, heartbreak, growth and eventually an honorable and significant death. When classic comic book characters such as Batman and Superman were created, their creators functioned within a work for hire environment. As a result they stay about the same age forever, get killed off, get resurrected, have a "crisis on infinite earths" or something that changes their whole existence basically all for the sole purpose of driving sales and market attention to the product. Some VERY creative authors and artists may get involved and create fantastic adventures that feature these characters but that is all dust in the breeze by next years marketing meeting.
Tolkien showed his deep care for his characters by not only giving them full lives, relationships and deaths but solid languages, cultures and histories.
We get to play this game (which I enjoy alot) because Tolkien sold a large number of his creative rights for LOTR and The Hobbit to Saul Zaentz's company to pay for tax debts. I think we are fortunate in the fact that Zaentz and Co seem more sensitive than most of their ilk to the precious nature of what they now control. I think that in particular we are fortunate that Turbine has many well studied, talented passionate Tolkien aficionados among their staff.
I still think that Tolkien had no idea of the depth of control over his creations he was relinquishing and had he lived to see it his heart would break. I enjoyed the movies and enjoy this game but I too love Frodo, Strider, Gandalf and company and would wish for these dear friends more trustworthy guardians than Warner Brothers or New Line.
There is a fundamentally different situation when a creator controls the destiny of her or his characters and world and when a corporation does.
In many modern observations of these opposing situations the differences may not seem that obvious but in the case of the person who is probably the most meticulous, loving and thoughtful creator of imaginary worlds ever, J.R.R. Tolkien the differences between the authors hand and a corporations are overwhelming.
I believe the greatest respect a creator can show their characters is in bestowing upon them a meaningful existence. By that I mean they have the possibility of living the breadth of human life: loss, gain, love marriage, parenthood, heartbreak, growth and eventually an honorable and significant death. When classic comic book characters such as Batman and Superman were created, their creators functioned within a work for hire environment. As a result they stay about the same age forever, get killed off, get resurrected, have a "crisis on infinite earths" or something that changes their whole existence basically all for the sole purpose of driving sales and market attention to the product. Some VERY creative authors and artists may get involved and create fantastic adventures that feature these characters but that is all dust in the breeze by next years marketing meeting.
I think it is false to blame it all on marketing. Marketing does indeed have a significant share of the blame but some of it lays with other writers who think they can do better. This is a very common issue with respect to books made into movies or in the case of remakes.
Even when there are no major changes in writer or director there can be major changes. Gotham was rebuilt for each and every of Tim Burton's Batman movies, rather than re-use the prior set. Lucas keeps doing re-writes of his own work, with the 'Han shot first' controversy being the most notable change.
Many characters don't age, or die and are reborn not because of marketing or head office but because the author wants the shock value or the chance to do things over. Not aging is very common with many fictional characters, independent of creative control or lack thereof.
Tolkien showed his deep care for his characters by not only giving them full lives, relationships and deaths but solid languages, cultures and histories.
And yet there are issues such as him waffling over the power of Balrog and their numbers, and thus the relative power of the first born. He was a great writer, no question, but there is a tendency to deify him or at least to deify his writing ability.
We get to play this game (which I enjoy alot) because Tolkien sold a large number of his creative rights for LOTR and The Hobbit to Saul Zaentz's company to pay for tax debts. I think we are fortunate in the fact that Zaentz and Co seem more sensitive than most of their ilk to the precious nature of what they now control. I think that in particular we are fortunate that Turbine has many well studied, talented passionate Tolkien aficionados among their staff.
There is a tendency to get a little bitter (or in the case of his son, a lot bitter) in such situations. I have to admit that the Rankin Bass 'Return of the King' was one of the worst things I have ever seen ('where there's a whip there's a way' being a lone spark of light in the work), but if he was able to look on LOTRO (and Peter Jackson's rendition) with an open mind, I would like to think he would be glad for them.
I still think that Tolkien had no idea of the depth of control over his creations he was relinquishing and had he lived to see it his heart would break. I enjoyed the movies and enjoy this game but I too love Frodo, Strider, Gandalf and company and would wish for these dear friends more trustworthy guardians than Warner Brothers or New Line.
There is such a thing as holding the reins too tight.&I think that they haven't done all that badly with the material... made it more accessible. His original works are still there and still just as he wrote them (or in the case of the Silmarilion, just as he wrote subject to his son's editing), and the movies and game just increase the desire to read the original writing.
Well there is still an orc army in Mordor, as well as many other 'old world' threats hidden in the depths of the earth and wild places
Where on earth are you getting this from? There was no Orc 'army' left in Mordor.
"...the power of Mordor was scattering like dust upon the wind. As when death strikes the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or threw themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope."
No organised resistance, no 'army' and going around killing traumatised Orcs one by one would hardly be heroic, would it? The really weird stuff would have been in Barad-dûr, which ended up as nothing but rubble. Walls and towers were brought down by the earthquake even many miles away from Mount Doom. The place is obviously very much intended to be finished, once and for all.
Above and beyond that, though, it is easy to say everyone was overjoyed to have Aragorn as king, but he has no actual experience in that role. There are alliances with the Elves and with the Rohirrim, but what do those really mean in practice? There is still a lot of sorting out to be done.
If there's one thing that's made very obvious in the book it's that Aragorn was born to rule, he was a natural. He'd got the dignity of the kings of old, we're told. We know what happens with Mirkwood, the Elves destroy Dol Guldur shortly after Sauron's fall (Galadriel uses her power to demolish it entirely) and the forest's cleansed, and renamed Eryn Lasgalen. The Dwarves and remaining Men of Dale defeated the Easterlings, in the end, and sent them packing. The Rohirrim go home and rebuild what the war had destroyed, and everyone else does the same. The hobbits have to clean house a bit first, of course, but after that it's plain sailing. Elsewhere, Umbar sued for peace (it had lost its fleet at the Pelargir), which was granted. So for a while at least, everything was wonderful. As I said, obviously it wouldn't stay that way forever but the year after the war was a time of peace and plenty.
That wouldn't take forever. Meanwhile they have been forcably reminded that there is actually an 'outside world.' Most would stay home, yes, but regardless of how it may seem, PC adventurers are actually the exceptions. Hobbiton and the Shire are not deserted. Bree is not deserted. Rivendell is not deserted, nor are Gondor, nor Rohan. The bulk of the populations stay at home.
When everything's wonderful at home and everyone's having a great time, there'd be little motivation to go off on adventures and besides, there was a lot of work to do in order to get the Shire put right as it was in quite a mess. Not to mention that any adventures there were to be had would be really rather ordinary by comparison to what had gone before. The war was over, evil had either perished or was hiding in holes. (Moria, of course, remained as one big dark hole but it was not reclaimed then - the cool place to be for Dwarves was helping Gimli build a new hall at the Glittering Caves).
Why do you see these things as absolutes?
Maybe because I know what the book says. Any adventures Middle-earth would have to offer after Sauron's fall would by necessity be hugely anti-climactic.
Really... Sauron's entire army was not just at the gates, but was able to fit on that one field? Seriously? Evidence, please? Winning at the gates is not the same as being prepared for a major incursion into Mordor. They were expecting to be fighting a delaying action, not an invasion. There doesn't have to be a Balrog there immediately and we do know that orcs are capable of operating independently of direct control.
I've already told you what state the Orcs were left in. Given enough time (years!) those who survived would recover their wits (just as their forebears had after Morgoth had been defeated) but right then and there, in the aftermath of the war, they were in no fit state to be a threat to anyone. As for the evil Men, they'd have seen all Sauron's might collapse in ruin and his spectacular demise, been through that huge earthquake and they would have been left in uncomfortable proximity to a spectacularly-erupting volcano. Do you really think that would have no effect on them? Common sense says they'd get the hell out of there, as it would have been utterly terrifying.
And enough about Balrogs, already.
Who knows? Its fantasy literature. Seriously, use some imagination. All it has to be is plausible.
Exactly, it has to be plausible: hence the 'like what?'. And please, spare me the "it's fantasy" line, that's both a tedious truism and meaninglessly vague.
Not in the next year or so, but please tell me that you don't believe in literally 'happily ever after.' Sauron is dead, so the races now become perfect, all greed and desire vanishes from the world, the land becomes super fertile and there is no cause for strife at all ever again.... ?
The point is that you can't expect it to be business as usual for adventurers straight after the War. The Fourth Age would be another matter, but that was years away. Oh, I'm sure Turbine could cobble together some old cack if they were desperate enough but you can't expect anything based on LOTR to just carry on as before after the guy the book is named for has finally been defeated.
Last edited by Radhruin_EU; Sep 09 2012 at 05:43 AM.
There is a fundamentally different situation when a creator controls the destiny of her or his characters and world and when a corporation does.
In many modern observations of these opposing situations the differences may not seem that obvious but in the case of the person who is probably the most meticulous, loving and thoughtful creator of imaginary worlds ever, J.R.R. Tolkien the differences between the authors hand and a corporations are overwhelming.
We get to play this game (which I enjoy alot) because Tolkien sold a large number of his creative rights for LOTR and The Hobbit to Saul Zaentz's company to pay for tax debts. I think we are fortunate in the fact that Zaentz and Co seem more sensitive than most of their ilk to the precious nature of what they now control. I think that in particular we are fortunate that Turbine has many well studied, talented passionate Tolkien aficionados among their staff.
Snipped it a bit, but I completely agree. Tolkien was intelligent enough, I think, to accept and understand that people have used the rights to what is (by his own, rather modest admission) a great work of fantasy and storytelling. I don't think it would surpise him too much that his creation has been twisted so much and represents little of what he wanted it to. That wouldn't make it any easier for him to accept though.
I don't mean to say that LotRO is one of the worst things that has ever happened to the stories, but it is clearly nothing like what JRRT wanted or invisioned for his legendarium.
There's too much violence, as has been said, but more than that most of it is pointless and meaningless. Killing random bandits and misguided villagers is hardly what he'd have wanted any Elf lord to be imagined doing.
If he was convinced, by whatever grandson, nephew or whoever of "gaming" age to try it out and see what it's like, I imagine he'd take quite a while to realise it was even supposed to be Middle-earth unless it was divulged to him previously. Until something blindingly obvious like someone speaking his Elvish, or bumping into Frodo. There's little (other than the superficial naming of locations or characters or vague tie-ins to the plot of the books) to really identify it as Middle-earth. His "IP" has been very much "gamified", which is not a critisim of Turbine, its inherent in adapting anything into a game. For what it's worth I think Turbine have done pretty well in not making it too gamey but I still don't think Tolkien would acknowledge it as anything like what he either imagined Middle-earth to be or what he wanted others to imagine it to be.
For reference, even my dad thinks LotRO is ridiculous. He thought BFME(one and two) were ridiculous in that they allowed you to control the forces of Sauron and Saruman. "Why would you want to do that? They're everything that's wrong in Middle-earth." "But it's just a game" I'd say "So then why base it on LotR?" he'd reply. Fair enough, I thought. That's just the opinion of a fan who is perhaps of a generation too old to either care or get to grips with "gamification". I imagine the opinion of the man who created it, and is of an older generation still, would be even stronger.
Last edited by Curandhras; Sep 09 2012 at 12:11 PM.
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