Thread: Good Fights

Once I finish up this rank I'll spend a week and knock out R6 on my reaver. Then I guess I'll magically have some appreciation for how it's SOO hard to play creepside huh?

Look, it wasn't hard in SoA, it's definitely not going to be hard now. Was it hard-ER than freepside...yes. So?

Anyone who isn't perfectly min/maxed in the current most powerful class in the moors is going to have a harder time than someone else. I'd say in a lot of ways the power gap between some creep classes (not even counting ranks) is actually larger than the power gap between a lot of creeps and freeps.

But I don't see lower powered creeps complaining about the more powerful creeps. Just complaints about the supposedly OP freeps. Endlessly.

The reality is creeps have always been incentivized to raid/zerg/group. Freeps have PvEd in a game for 75 levels with RARE occasion to NEED to group.

So the suggestion that freeps have zerging "ingrained in their being" is just absurd.

Originally Posted by tykoshi

OK, I had to actually chuckle after being freepside for a little while last night with my burg. At what? At freeps calling out warg packs that had 3 wargs. I know it had three cuz I got taken down by it myself. Poetic justice, mayhaps! Either way, I thought it was funny that it happened to me.

Does three really make a pack? I know a good number of freeps who could solo a number of warg groups of that size, or ones with two or three more, and not all mini's or wardens or RKs.

I also want to thank a couple of freeps who at least acknowledged that the mid-sized pack last night (12 at one point) spent a lot of time focused against the freep raid in and around OC or wtab/west TA. There are a couple who can attest to that pack didn't gank known solos looking for solos. The lone freeps that did were known to be running with the raid.

-pup-

3 is more than enough to blow up most anything. AND that 3 is VERY unlikely to fight a group of 4-5-6-7-8-9+ freeps. They often purposefully prey on the solos. Don't deny it.

Originally Posted by Thane9

3 is more than enough to blow up most anything. AND that 3 is VERY unlikely to fight a group of 4-5-6-7-8-9+ freeps. They often purposefully prey on the solos. Don't deny it.

Lucybaby - I'm not denying that it happens, but I would suggest that wargs will take on larger groups more often than you may think.

We had 6 early on, and were gobbling squishes in a Freep group of 15 at WTA. We chomped up Fellybaby a few times, then just decided to give him playful nibbles and kiss him on our way by.

We saw the fight club near TR and flopped all over Jaiyneybaby to say hi, before running into the keep to devour whatever we could find.

Wargs took LC, but couldn't defend it without support, so we made an attempt on TR til we were swamped with Freeps. Then more roaming nomming bits out the raid, then we disbanded.

Not one single instance of us avoiding greater numbers.

Not to be pugnacious, but would you deny that?

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

Originally Posted by Umbrarg

Lucybaby - I'm not denying that it happens, but I would suggest that wargs will take on larger groups more often than you may think.

We had 6 early on, and were gobbling squishes in a Freep group of 15 at WTA. We chomped up Fellybaby a few times, then just decided to give him playful nibbles and kiss him on our way by.

We saw the fight club near TR and flopped all over Jaiyneybaby to say hi, before running into the keep to devour whatever we could find.

Wargs took LC, but couldn't defend it without support, so we made an attempt on TR til we were swamped with Freeps. Then more roaming nomming bits out the raid, then we disbanded.

Not one single instance of us avoiding greater numbers.

Not to be pugnacious, but would you deny that?

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

So which is it then? Are you underpowered and unable to fight even numbers or are you overpowered and you engage larger numbers all the time?

It seems like a lot of wargs are claiming they HAVE to group up because freeps are so powerful, <insert some screenshot of some freep dev crit hapening once to some creep somewhere that one time> but then you're suggesting you can and do take on larger numbers and flip keeps....

I just don't understand how to put the two together.

Either stealth allows you to pick those fights to optimize your win/loss risk/reward OR it doesn't. And we all know very well it DOES. And that skill is worth a heck of a lot of dps. Because I don't see wargs out there not using it but expecting to match up perfectly dps wise to a non-stealth player.

I'd suggest for every solo that dies to a group of stealthed players who WOULD HAVE been able to avoid/run/escape the fight if they were visible that success divided by the total in the stealth group is exactly proportional to the amount of fights they should lose in a stand up even numbered fight.

So if lets say wargs get 50% of their infamy from fights that were targeted/enableled by stealth, i.e. infamy that being visible would've precluded, then I'd suggest that amount of infamy should be lost in "even" fights...in other words not even, to make the class balanced.

So if a duo of wargs get 50% of their infamy from utalizing stealth, then they should only win roughly 38% of 1:1 fights that do NOT utalize stealth. (-12% for each summing up to a 25% total reduction which is half of their expected wins in a tic-tac-toe balanced game) As warg packs get bigger the expected win/loss would approach 50% as long as their overall ratio of "stealth" earned infamy didn't climb beyond the 50%...althouth it likely would, as in general people earn more renown/infamy when grouped over short periods of time than not.

That would be balanced. Of course FAR more variables come into play as well...group synergies (for which wargs are low), escape, disengage, and denial skills (for which wargs are high)...lots of things to consider.

Originally Posted by Thane9

3 is more than enough to blow up most anything. AND that 3 is VERY unlikely to fight a group of 4-5-6-7-8-9+ freeps. They often purposefully prey on the solos. Don't deny it.

I suppose that's going to depend on the group. 3 wargs againt 3 hunters? I'll take those odds. Add an LM in the mix? OK, still fair game. 3 minis? 3 RKs? Sorry, see ya next time. You yourself have advocated choosing challenging fights you think you have a chance of winning. But there, too, I'm a major proponent of hit-and-fade tactics, where we get in, hit one or two and get back out. I'm not averse to taking risks.

Do solos get it along the way? Of course they do. I've never denied doing it, only that I try to limit the hits against some known soloers (sorry, you didn't make that cut). But, since we're stealthed, those who got a pass don't realize it. But if I know someone generally runs with the freep raid, then you can bet yer 2nd Age that I'm not going to let them go. If you're the straggler in the raid, learn Rule #13. As you yourself point out, they're my enemy and I should show them no mercy. Either way, most of those happen because we're in between engagements against the large group.

Let me lay down a challenge (though I doubt you'll accept). Make a warg and roam with a pack I'm leading. Don't tell me who you are. You'd be surprised to find what it is I'm actually doing.

-pup-

Originally Posted by Thane9

So which is it then? Are you underpowered and unable to fight even numbers or are you overpowered and you engage larger numbers all the time?

It seems like a lot of wargs are claiming they HAVE to group up because freeps are so powerful, <insert some screenshot of some freep dev crit hapening once to some creep somewhere that one time> but then you're suggesting you can and do take on larger numbers and flip keeps....

I just don't understand how to put the two together.

Either stealth allows you to pick those fights to optimize your win/loss risk/reward OR it doesn't. And we all know very well it DOES. And that skill is worth a heck of a lot of dps. Because I don't see wargs out there not using it but expecting to match up perfectly dps wise to a non-stealth player.

There's Luc and his tree again....

Get your head out of the numbers and think! We're wargs using our skills to maximum advantage. We engage larger numbers because we gauge the risk worth the reward. Very rarely is a 12-pack of wargs going to wipe a like-sized freep raid, but it can happen. Again, hit-and-fade. Tactics and strategy. I've never heard anyone deny that wargs grouped can be a nightmare to those it sets upon. Ask Budhorn how many times he's been nommed in the middle of a freep raid.

Stealth is our offset to healing and mid-ranged DPS!

We smack down solos because we caught you out alone. See my previous for some of the other whys and wherefores in this case.

Spare me the argument about 8 wargs flipping a keep when one warden can do it.

As for HAVING to pack? Well, I said elsewhere I do it for the fun and hanging with friends. I hunt solo as well, as do most in SWS. I can't speak for others, though.

-pup-

Originally Posted by tykoshi

I suppose that's going to depend on the group. 3 wargs againt 3 hunters? I'll take those odds. Add an LM in the mix? OK, still fair game. 3 minis? 3 RKs? Sorry, see ya next time. You yourself have advocated choosing challenging fights you think you have a chance of winning. But there, too, I'm a major proponent of hit-and-fade tactics, where we get in, hit one or two and get back out. I'm not averse to taking risks.

Do solos get it along the way? Of course they do. I've never denied doing it, only that I try to limit the hits against some known soloers (sorry, you didn't make that cut). But, since we're stealthed, those who got a pass don't realize it. But if I know someone generally runs with the freep raid, then you can bet yer 2nd Age that I'm not going to let them go. If you're the straggler in the raid, learn Rule #13. As you yourself point out, they're my enemy and I should show them no mercy. Either way, most of those happen because we're in between engagements against the large group.

Let me lay down a challenge (though I doubt you'll accept). Make a warg and roam with a pack I'm leading. Don't tell me who you are. You'd be surprised to find what it is I'm actually doing.

-pup-

I added some math to my last post, please review...hopefully it'll make sense.

My point isn't about intent or trying to villify anyone..please understand that.

My point IS however, that those kills, purposefull or not, I assume not unless given reason to believe otherwise like hate tells that brag about spending hours purposefully hunting me with a group (which I've gotten btw), should factor in to the overall power assessment of a class.

A warg should most likely NOT win 50% of their visible, stand up, out in the open fights with a comparable freep.

Because they have that added advantage of not engaging when it suits them. AND an additional added advantage of having one of the best avoidance/escape suites of skills on either side. AND an additional added advantage of being able to engage when it suits them.

Let me lay down a challenge to you.

Spend the time effort etc to level up a Champ to 75, max your traits, grind your LIs (nevermind the fact that you'll only have to do this once to get where I am, and I had to do it many many times for many many sets of gear over the years) then go out to the moors. Mount up, and ride out. See how easy it is if you don't sit in the raid. Just give it a shot. Try looking for fights and not be called a "ganker" when you encounter a R9+ Defiler who can (but doesn't) out heal your damage. See how you assess the advantage wargs have once you realize they are nearby virtually EVERY fight you engage in and you have NO way of knowing that. THEN being told that you're a poor player because you burn cooldowns fighting people...knowing full well that if you didn't burn the cooldowns you'd be insta gibbed by the warg that was there all along the second you get low.

Competative fights take a LOT of forms...and I fully understand that 90% of the fights I engage in win and lose are likely to not be super competative. Sometimes for things I could control...I could just stand there and watch a low ranked creep kill npcs...sometimes for things I could not control...I could jump that low ranked creep and get ROLLED by 3 wargs that were using him as bait (note: those two things happen about equally in frequency)

Either way I think it's terribly misleading to discount a lot of the skills that creeps have. And note: stealth is not the only one. There are a lot of areas that come into play when considering balance. It's just one of the easier to discuss because it's so obviously a huge advantage.

Originally Posted by tykoshi

There's Luc and his tree again....

Get your head out of the numbers and think! We're wargs using our skills to maximum advantage. We engage larger numbers because we gauge the risk worth the reward. Very rarely is a 12-pack of wargs going to wipe a like-sized freep raid, but it can happen. Again, hit-and-fade. Tactics and strategy. I've never heard anyone deny that wargs grouped can be a nightmare to those it sets upon. Ask Budhorn how many times he's been nommed in the middle of a freep raid.

Stealth is our offset to healing and mid-ranged DPS!

We smack down solos because we caught you out alone. See my previous for some of the other whys and wherefores in this case.

Spare me the argument about 8 wargs flipping a keep when one warden can do it.

As for HAVING to pack? Well, I said elsewhere I do it for the fun and hanging with friends. I hunt solo as well, as do most in SWS. I can't speak for others, though.

-pup-

This is EXACTLY My point. How can wargs complain about damage when they should NOT be balanced based on damage alone?????

I've levelled both a hunter and a burg. Taken 'em both out to the Moors. And, I must say I'm absolutely abysmal with both. Maybe if I played them a little more under PvP conditions, I'd get better. Tried a champ and gaurdian early on...just no interest.

The effectiveness of a pack against a larger number isn't based on damage alone. If it were, we'd be on the losing end a whole lot more than we already are. You have to consider the disruption we can cause to a raid. There are tactical, environmental and other aspects that come into play as well. If we aren't revealed by an inopportune track, our first attack is coming from stealth. A good group is going to mix Shadow and Flayer, hopefully to maximum advantage. Given that the first target is carefully selected, we have a good chance of taking that one down quickly.

But once we're out in the open, we're pretty squishy. Getting at that 2nd or 3rd target is orders of magnitude more difficult. I've seen packs take down like numbers, but generally only because a series of mistakes were being made by the freep raid or its leader - or because we achieved total surprise (like we did in Spider Den once).

-pup-

I'll add to Pup's post:

Luc - there is no way that you know what is going on in the warg pack. The only thing you know is what you see in the OOC chat, and actual fighting. To openly claim to "know" what is happening is ignorance (unless you are Danuf). There are nights where there is no pack and everyone in the tribe is solo, and when we do group it's anywhere from 4-8 in the pack - no different than the roaming Garny group or others like it. We'll hit and run against superior freep numbers, as well as fight against small groups, and occasionally kill solos (due to running into them in our roaming). What we don't do is repeatedly gank solos, camp rez circles, camp GV, and hug NPC's and keeps. Good example of what we DON'T do is camp OC and rez circle for 4 hours like the freep zerg did Saturday night and for some time last night. We are constantly moving, engaging the fights when we see them and provide help when the creep raid needs it.

I also came out freep side last night, and was amused when that 3 warg group got called out. I also got killed by them, but no complaints. Was also funny when someone called out Pounci while he was standing in GV on his cappy.

You can make all the claims you want, until you actually experience what we are doing - you are clueless. The invitation stands, take Pup's challenge and find out for yourself.

For Jaiyne and crew at GTA last night, that was a most unexpected fight to map into - good job, didn't expect the burgs being there.

Originally Posted by CRUSHUC

I'll add to Pup's post:

Was also funny when someone called out Pounci while he was standing in GV on his cappy.

That's right up there with Saturday, when I was on my burg in Isengard and see in /glff someone (can't remember who) saying that Pup had a warg pack out. All I could do was shake my head and laugh.

-pup-

Originally Posted by CRUSHUC

For Jaiyne and crew at GTA last night, that was a most unexpected fight to map into - good job, didn't expect the burgs being there.

What burgs

I was with Sorae (guard), Glin (champ), Meg (Mini), Kebby (RK), and Marin (hunter). No burgs with me - but I guess there could have been some I didn't see.

If it's the one I am thinking of, we did have a really good fight with you guys there. Most fun one of the night even though we lost a couple

Marin and Glin both ranked, which is why they were out with me

PS to Hithy - I loved when you all came out to say HI around TR HS. So funny. I was sweating it for a minute there, lol.

If it's teh fight I'm thinking of, were were caught still in combat (NPC aggroed somewhere) and unable to stealth. I was trying to get the pack back together and moving. All of a sudden it's Hello, Jaiyne! Good-bye a$$! Had to laugh as I hit the rez circle.

-pup-

Originally Posted by Thane9

So which is it then? Are you underpowered and unable to fight even numbers or are you overpowered and you engage larger numbers all the time?

It seems like a lot of wargs are claiming they HAVE to group up because freeps are so powerful, <insert some screenshot of some freep dev crit hapening once to some creep somewhere that one time> but then you're suggesting you can and do take on larger numbers and flip keeps....

I just don't understand how to put the two together.

Lucybaby - not to be awkward, but we are Suicidal Warg Squad. Wether we are underpowered or not, there are things we do.

We will engage anyone, anytime, anywhere - and win or die trying. We flip keeps IF we can think of a good reason to do so. We usually prefer to keep them blue so we can nom those wandering Freeps that a blue map gives confidence to. We will go two against a whole Freep raid if we think we can get a kill.

It's just what we do. I am sure you can find many on your own side who will agree with that, and I would even venture you have witnessed it yourself.

Other wargs in other tribes are perfectly entitled to play otherwise of course. Some of them hate the way we run, and they are completely within their rights to do so. Some Freeps think that what we do is atrociously bad. And then try to do it themselves

Everyone is different, there is no harm in that. As long as you are having fun playing the game.

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

P.S and yes we DO let certain peeps go. Peeps getting frustrated with continually getting nommed by a warg pack is not what we are all about - there are no hard and fast rules to it - it's the Leaders call.